Authentic Business Development for Litigators: Stop Chasing Cases and Start Building Clients with John Reed

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Emerging Litigation Podcast
Episode: Authentic Business Development for Litigators: Stop Chasing Cases and Start Building Clients with John Reed
Host: Tom Hagy
Guest: John Reed, Founder & Chief Relationship Officer, Rain BDM
Date: October 10, 2025

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Overview

This episode dives into the challenges and opportunities for litigators looking to build authentic, sustainable business relationships rather than simply reacting to litigation as it arises. Tom Hagy and John Reed discuss how personality—introvert vs. extrovert—impacts legal business development, the evolving generational workplace, and concrete approaches for growing a litigation practice in a way that’s both genuine and effective.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Litigator Mindset: From Reactive to Proactive

Timestamp: 04:51–05:49

• Traditional Approach: Litigators are often trained to be reactive—responding to being sued rather than seeking out proactive opportunities.
• John Reed:

  “The thing I hear most about business development from litigators is, ‘I don’t know when somebody’s going to get sued…’ That ship has sailed.”
  (05:00)

• Reed argues that waiting for disputes prevents lawyers from forming deeper, ongoing relationships with clients.
• Instead: Seek to understand clients’ businesses and become a partner who engages before anything "hits the fan."

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2. Personality Types & Business Development

Timestamp: 07:56–13:51

• Research Basis: John references the Myers-Briggs legal personality survey by Larry Richards, highlighting that only about 20% of lawyers fit the classic “extroverted, hard-charging” mold, but introverts are also common and can thrive.
  • Myers-Briggs: Litigators often EN types (Extroverted, Intuitive), but introverts are a significant portion too.
  • John Reed:

    “I am, believe it or not, an introvert. What I’m technically called, or clinically called, is an ambivert…”
    (09:10)

• Effective Strategies for Introverts:
  • Leverage strengths such as writing blogs, one-on-one outreach, and thoughtful content, rather than forced large-scale networking.
  • Collaborate on content with desired clients—such as articles or webinars—to develop organic, mutual relationships.
  • Tom Hagy:

    “Inviting somebody, a potential client…to co-author…that is a very organic way to develop that relationship…”
    (14:41)

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3. Early Career & Remote Lawyering

Timestamp: 16:45–24:21

• Challenges: New lawyers rarely receive sufficient on-the-job business development training, especially working remotely.
  • Partner-associate time is diminished, and hierarchies can complicate relationship-building.
  • John Reed:

    “…you have to get guidance, you have to seek guidance, you have to be a sponge.”
    (19:41)

• Generation Gaps: Young attorneys may default to less-personal means (text, email), influenced by a culture of digital communication.
• Mentorship Needed: Both associates and partners must work at mentoring, especially as in-office spontaneous feedback lessens.

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4. Building an Authentic Litigator Brand

Timestamp: 26:16–31:32

• Defining "Brand":
  • Not just logos or taglines; a brand is a promise—how you consistently show up for the client.
  • Four key aspects: role, skill, context, and style—with style (your personal approach) as the differentiator.
• John Reed:

  “The differentiator is the style…how you do what you do could be the thing that sets you apart.”
  (29:22)

• Authenticity: Young lawyers should find and amplify their own approach rather than imitate senior attorneys.
  • “Figure out your style…you’re gonna, it’s gonna be more authentic.” – Tom Hagy
    (30:04)

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5. Earning a Reputation Beyond "Doing a Good Job"

Timestamp: 31:33–35:26

• Doing quality work is just table stakes; it doesn’t guarantee growth.
  • “Doing a good job is…not a growth move.” – John Reed (31:58)
• Key to Referral and Retention:
  • Demonstrate what it’s like to work with you. Talk about clients’ lives, not just cases.
    • Develop trusted advisor status—where clients seek personal recommendations, not just legal advice.

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6. Deepening Client Relationships

Timestamp: 35:26–37:32

• Go Beyond the Office:
  • Visit clients’ workplaces, learn about their operations, meet their team—“learn by walking around.”
  • Reed:

    “If you go to meet with the CFO…walk past the HR director’s office…expand your relationship that way.”
    (36:25)

• Expand the Network:
  • Ask clients who else they rely on (CPAs, advisors) and seek introductions—build a network around your clients.

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7. Practical Tips for Daily/Weekly Business Development

Timestamp: 37:32–39:30

1. Expand the Orbit:
   • Meet your client’s other trusted professionals. Leverage mutual relationships for both better service and referral growth.
2. Action-Oriented Follow-Up:
   • After every meeting, ask: “What did I learn that I can act on?” (not just “when should I call?”)
     • Send recommendations, referrals, or thoughtful personal gestures based on what you learned.
   • “The action is, I’m going to make that recommendation…I’m going to send them that book…” – John Reed
     (39:18)

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8. Relationship-Building Stories

Timestamp: 41:20–44:56

• The Whiskey Bottle Story:
  • An attorney learns a client collects antique bottles; sends a relevant gift after a meeting, rekindling the relationship.

  “She couldn’t call fast enough to say thank you. I can’t believe you picked up on that…”
  (42:30)

• The "Mayor of the Rink" Story:
  • An introverted lawyer is coached to socialize with other parents at his kids’ hockey games, leading to an opportunity to ride with a new CEO and build a valuable new client relationship.

  “Oh, you’re the mayor of the rink. You know everybody!”
  (43:31)

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9. Giving Back: Leader Dogs for the Blind

Timestamp: 40:03–41:12

• John Reed chairs Leader Dogs for the Blind, which offers independence to people with vision loss via dog partnerships and mobility training—exemplifying all-around client care and empathy.

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Notable Quotes

• “You have to look beyond the dispute, and not wait for the dispute…look for other ways to build that relationship.”
  – John Reed (05:31)
• “I think what I’m technically called, or clinically called, is an ambivert.”
  – John Reed (09:10)
• “It opens the door: you’ve got instant credibility when people are looking for people to comment or speak or write.”
  – John Reed (16:18)
• “Always, always, always find ways to demonstrate what it’s like to work with you.”
  – John Reed (33:04)
• “If you want to really go into the economics of it, when you get to the trusted advisor level, you’re rate-increase proof…That lawyer’s sticky.”
  – John Reed (34:39)
• “Always be curious…and to a lesser extent, always be conversing, because that’s how you learn.”
  – John Reed (26:01)

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Memorable Moments

• Tom and John’s mutual confessions of introversion, and strategies for making networking less painful (07:56–13:51)
• Discussion of “mayor of the rink” as a metaphor for non-traditional networking—turning everyday situations into opportunities
• Reed’s argument that business development and brand for lawyers is not about self-promotion, but about matching promise, delivery, and authentic style

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Actionable Takeaways

• Stop waiting for cases—begin building relationships and understanding your clients’ business proactively.
• Embrace your personality type—introverts excel at content, one-on-one meetings, and thoughtful outreach.
• Define your authentic brand: role, skills, context, and personal style.
• Instead of just “doing a good job,” work towards trusted advisor status by showing care, curiosity, and broader interest in your clients’ worlds.
• Take practical steps after every meeting to deepen relationships—referrals, thoughtful notes, or personal gestures based on what you’ve learned.

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For more information on John Reed or to discuss business development strategies for litigators, visit RainBDM.com. For more about Leader Dogs for the Blind, see leaderdog.org.

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Transcript

[Tom Hagee]

Otherwise, you sound fine.

[John Reed]

It's telling me I can't switch my mics. So let me go out and come back in again, if that's okay.

[Tom Hagee]

Okay. Oh, sure. Try it now. I'm waiting while John goes out and comes back in again. This is me doing that. This could be the kind of bonus content you get when you watch our YouTube channel, which we're developing and which you're all going to go to and listen to and, like, watch. Figure if I say it, it could actually happen.

[John Reed]

Hopefully this is better.

[Tom Hagee]

Wow. Okay. Geez, you're. You're like. You're in my skull. That's good.

[John Reed]

I like to leave an impression.

[Tom Hagee]

Welcome to the Emerging Litigation Podcast. I'm your host, Tom Hagee. I get to speak today to John Reed, who is founder and chief Relationship officer with Rain bdm. We're going to talk about business development for litigators. Introduce him and introduce this live on tape. So I'll end it there. I hope you enjoy it. I did the introduction. I'm going to do it again, just. Just for amusement, in case I screwed up anything. Today, we're going to talk generally. We haven't titled this yet, so I'm going to figure out, after we talk, I'm going to come up with a very clever title that people are going to look at that and say, gosh, I have got to listen to this podcast.

[John Reed]

I just like, five, six minutes that are usable.

[Tom Hagee]

So. Well, so far, we don't have that. So generally, this is business for. For litigators. And we're going to talk a lot about personality types, too. Now you are. You have. You have founded RAIN BDM. That's RAIN as in precipitation. BDM.com.

[John Reed]

Correct.

[Tom Hagee]

According to your. According to your marketing lingo, you help lawyers build practices that reflect their strengths and their personalities, which is important, obviously, their professional and personal goals. You've got a background in law. You've. You got your JD From Michigan State University College of Law with honors. I grew up in Ohio.

[John Reed]

Nobody saw that coming, by the way. Certainly not my parents.

[Tom Hagee]

Mine didn't either. And I didn't. I didn't disappoint. Now you. Yeah, I'm from. I grew up in Ohio. So am I supposed to hate Michigan State, or is it. Who am I supposed to hate?

[John Reed]

No, you. You can. You can be okay with Michigan State. You can't like that other team up north.

[Tom Hagee]

Oh, you know what? Now, remember now, in Ohio, when Michigan State played the University of Michigan, the Ohio State was always backing Michigan State, so. So not That I followed it at all. So I never did follow basketball, as my dad used to say. I know it's football. And also you, you got a background in marketing and sales. This is, you've got. That's a lethal combination of things you have there. You've got a bachelor of science degree in marketing from Babson, also with honors.

[John Reed]

Again, who knew?

[Tom Hagee]

Someone studied, someone cracked a book. That was my issue. And you're also host of the Sticky Lawyers podcast, which I, in my first introduction when I was here by myself, I assumed that was about lawyers who have small children. It's not even remotely funny. But I did, I did look through some of your episodes, which is very cool. So I will highly. Let's, let's, let's boost it here. I liked some. Your recent episode. Just from this, this month. From big law associate to in house counsel to legal entrepreneur. I like that. Navigating the Amazon. An IP lawyer who defends online marketplace sellers. I see what you did there. That'd be Amazon. Then you got a guy in an extremely electric green shirt, an Olympic road racing cyclist turned pioneer bicycle lawyer man performing.

[John Reed]

Performing episode of all time.

[Tom Hagee]

I. Okay, I'm gonna, I'll link to it, if you don't mind.

[John Reed]

Please do. Absolutely.

[Tom Hagee]

I haven't listened to that one. And then something. This is a very serious gentleman talking about a serious topic. Bench strength from judge to judicial misconduct, investigator and prosecutor. Oh, I'd listen to that just for the jokes.

[John Reed]

And he had a million of them. They were just rolling up.

[Tom Hagee]

Oh, boy. I'm gonna apologize to him and to you because like I said, I'm a little jacked up here. I'm glad to be healthy. And it's my second round of COVID or maybe my third. I can't remember because I get the shots. And I felt like I had it anyway. So, yes, I'm a repeat customer. Let's dive in. Now we're going to focus on lawyers, litigators in particular, so we can start off with talking about the litigator mindset. So they're often trained to react quickly and decisively. And of course, you know, everybody's got different personalities and how they address their careers and their lives and everything, but they can change and they can adapt or they can use different techniques depending on the kind of person. So how, anyway, how does this reactive nature affect their approach to business development? What, what shifts in mindset can help them become more intentional in their business development efforts?

[John Reed]

Yeah, I think you really nailed it with this, this idea of being reactionary you know, the thing I hear most about business development litigators as well. I don't know when somebody's going to get sued. I can't predict that. You know, I can, I can track PACER or the courts, and I can send an email off to somebody saying, hey, I see you just got served. I'd love to defend you, to represent you, but that, that ship has sailed. That, that novel 10 years ago, but it's not 15 years ago, but it's not now. So I think that's a little bit of a hindrance, this idea that as a litigator, I am reactive and I can't be necessarily proactive. You know, And I hear from a lot of litigators, they'll say, well, I met some general counsel, I met some business owners, and I said, hey, if something happens, call me. Like, like, that's the big business development hook. Remember me if something goes wrong. And I think you have to overcome that. And I think you have to look beyond the dispute and not wait for the dispute and look for other ways to build that relationship with the people that you want to serve.

[Tom Hagee]

Yeah, yeah. So, so let's, so, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, kind of understanding and we'll, we'll get into that. But kind of understanding somebody's business. I remember was it, it was a banker and an accountant. Different professionals have said, you know, we want to be kind of your partner in, in, in the business, not just, you know, helping you when something hits the fan. So that's, that makes complete sense. And we can talk about that more. But. So let's talk about personality. You've got, you know, I can relate to this very much. You've got extroverted and introverted attorneys. And people who know me now as a full grown adult would say, you, you, you're extroverted. And I was always. But I wasn't, I was introverted. I went into writing, reporting about law. And so as a guy with a BA in communications and journalism, talking to lawyers was very intimidating as a young guy. And going to conferences and talking to lawyers was very intimidating. Going to Senate hearings to cover them all very, you know, I was, it was just not my thing. I was just, I don't know why, you know, I was introvert. But then, you know, and in public speaking, forget it. But then it was a matter of, my God, I've got to make a living. A, and B, once you do it enough and see other people doing it, like, okay, well, this, this isn't that hard. So get over it. And then. So, you know, so professionally I had to go through that change. Now the introvert in me also likes to go to those things and be alone for the next week. But. But then I ended up running conferences and finding out that talking to lawyers, you know, well, after a while I knew what I was talking about. But also they don't always want to talk about law. They want to talk about their dogs. And you and I are going to talk about dogs, but. Or their kids or whatever, vacation. So. And then they also want to meet other people. So. And some of them are introverted. So sometimes I would find a lawyer who's not talking to anybody and I would just go up and start talking and introduce them. So anyway, you can have people who do that. That's a. Of saying you've worked with both types, extroverts and introverts. So how do these personality types influence the way litigators might engage with clients and networking like I'm talking about, and build visibility?

[John Reed]

Yeah, so I'll give you a little bit of background to Frame this. In 1992, 1993, a guy named Larry Richards undertook, I think is still the largest survey of lawyer personalities. I think he. 3,000 lawyers at the ABA Convention take the Myers Briggs type indicator. And as I say, it's the largest collection of results and I still refer to it. And you know, there in Myers Briggs lingo, there's, there's 16 squares. So we talk about ENTJ, INTP, ISS, whatever. So litigators, according to that research, those who are extroverted, who are intuitive types, that's the end thing. And they are definitive and dominating. Those people represent. And I have written down here 19.3%. So if you divide 100 by 16, it's far less. So that's 20% of all lawyers fall into that. Then the next tier down is you switch from extroverted to introverted, and that adds another 10%. So you're at 30%, close to 30% of what are considered to be the top lawyer personalities, the most representative lawyer personalities that make up the game. And, you know, there's safety in numbers. We live in an extroverted world. I am, believe it or not, I'm an introvert. I think what I'm technically called or clinically called as an ambivert, so I can play one or the other. But like you, if I've had a big day with people, I want to go do a crossroad in the corner in the fetal position. But so, so that's Kind of the background for what we're talking about here. And it is, it's great if you think about it. We want that lawyer to be extroverted. We want them to be thinking on their feet, not necessarily waiting to react, to be ahead of it, to be proactive. We want them to take control, especially in a foreign environment like a courtroom.

[Tom Hagee]

Right.

[John Reed]

For most people, that's a very foreign environment. And we want them to be decisive. We want them to object when they have to. We want them to ask definitive deposition questions. We want them to build the strategy of the case. That's great if you're inside the fishbowl, looking inside the fishbowl, but if you're dealing with that client who is an introvert, who is maybe not a sensor or intuitive, but maybe is a feeler, so has more, and not to say bleeding heart liberal or anything like that, but more feeling for other people, taking other people's feelings and thoughts into account. And then maybe they're also that, that what's called the P type, where they don't make decisions that quickly. They're, you know, they're the ones that get buyer's remorse. So if you think about it, I'm a hard charging litigator. I got the strategy, let's go. And I'm calling you and I want an answer on how we're going to proceed. If I'm an introvert, please don't call me. Can you email me, can you text me? Can you, can you do it a different way? One, two, If I'm heading a company and what you're proposing is going to impact a lot of people, that might rub me the wrong way too. I want to take care of my employees. And lastly, if you're pushing me for a decision and I haven't figured out all the different scenarios, I haven't processed it. You're making me very uncomfortable.

[Tom Hagee]

So.

[John Reed]

And it's not that you're going to be a bad lawyer to that client or that client's not going to be a good client to you, but wouldn't you rather have that chemistry and that connection so that not only is the result good, but the relationship is great? So I think that's the one thing to overcome in this whole thing is I'll just say this. When I administer Myers Briggs assessments to lawyers, inevitably two things happen. One, they get the results back and they go, wow, that's the way I, that's why I think the way I do. And then you wait for it. Wow, you mean other people don't think like me. So once you have those two revelations, now we're off to the races. Now we can tailor communication styles and how decision making styles affect clients behavior and things like that.

[Tom Hagee]

Right, Right. Yeah. It's funny you mentioned that. I always, about other people think like me. I feel like it might be too heavy, but I think even kids in elementary school and kindergarten, someone ought to say to them, by the way, there's a voice in your head and everybody has one, you know, and, and the way you see things isn't the way everybody else sees it. Like I, that would be helpful as a child to know that like, am I there's something wrong with me? Am I a weirdo? So, so these differences. So how do you, when you have somebody that you see as pretty introverted, what strategies work well for that in developing clients?

[John Reed]

Yeah. And I, I have a soft spot in my heart for Introvert 1 and being in an extroverted world, there's all this pressure. The law, the business of law. Law firms are, go get that business, close that client, you know, go to that networking event and bring back, you know, 34 business cards and things like that, which is.

[Tom Hagee]

Terrible.

[John Reed]

So I think the idea is, okay, let's take what you're good at. You can't stay in your office. You got to get out there eventually. But let's do it on your terms. So if you like to write, let's get you writing some blog posts, right? But as you're writing, is there somebody you could reach out to who you know and say, hey, I'm writing this post. I'd love to get your thoughts. Or we haven't met, but you know, I see you've got this experience that's a one on one and we're all better one on one. And if I can control that channel and have those conversations, get that input, I'm going to deliver an ultimate work product here with this document. But I've gotten advice and guidance and a helpful tip from somebody that's going to make me feel good. It's going to give me the momentum to try to reach out to somebody else. And then when I've written the thing, then maybe I can share it with people I know and say, I've written this, I'd love to get your thoughts. Or has this happened to you? You can use it. So it's one on one marketing. Sometimes it's zero on one market or one on zero marketing or one on less, depending on how you look at it. But it's. But I control It, I control the pace, it doesn't make the output any less valuable.

[Tom Hagee]

Right.

[John Reed]

And frankly, my insights might be really helpful if I can go off on a tangent for a second. You know, litigators often say to me, what would I write a blog post on? You know, do I always have to write about the most recent case? You know, this decision came down. No. Why don't you write about something you did that was cool in your practice over the last week or if you're a newer lawyer, you just did your first X or, or you know, you just encountered your first issue. You can write about that without saying I'm a complete noob. You can, you can make it interesting because it's interesting to you. And I think that that, that gives people a lot of confidence to share as well.

[Tom Hagee]

Yeah.

[John Reed]

That I, I may be uncomfortable because I'm less than a year out or less than three years out, but I still can communicate what I'm going through, what I'm feeling, what I'm learning that will be of interest to others.

[Tom Hagee]

Yeah. And I can see where some lawyers are not. I know because I've worked with them of all levels of experience. Some are very concerned what they say is, can be used against them or can be used against a client or things like that. There are certainly ways to navigate that. But you mentioned a couple of things. One is collaborating with somebody. I don't know if you meant this necessarily, but collaborating with somebody on content I have found is one of the best ways to develop a relationship. So for example, inviting somebody, a potential client or an existing client to be with you on a webinar on a subject or to co author, you said, as an article or something, that is a very organic way to develop that relationship and develop your, and to share your expertise and to learn. So it's like a win, win, win, win. So I always encourage attorneys, work, work with the people you want to represent and create things like being on this podcast, you know, absolutely. I could say to, you know, I have invited people attorney. I said, you know, if you want, if you want to talk about this subject and you want to be on here with an in house counsel or something, bring them because that's, that's great for everybody. The other thing about, about writing is, is that as somebody who has always looked for podcasts, guests, but also conference speakers, webinar speakers, when I was a publisher, I was looking for guest authors all the time. You're going to search now, you're going to search and you're going to find oh, they've written something about this. They've already done some of the hard work. Let me, let me get them on. Let me get them to do it here. So I'm completely with you on that. Creating content.

[John Reed]

Look, it's like any other credential, right? I mean, presumably by the time you graduate law school, you've got two advanced degrees and you rely on that to get your first job. Well, if you have a library or a foundation of things you've written, whether they're articles or white papers, blog posts, presentations you've given, and you have the PowerPoints, that's your bona fides. And you're right, it opens the door. You've got instant credibility when people are looking for people to comment or speak or write.

[Tom Hagee]

So let's talk about, let's just, for lack of a better term, younger lawyers. But I'm always somebody who's defending the generations that I'm not in. So I'm a late boomer, I guess. Yes, I'm a boomer. And, you know, then millennials and Generation X and so. And I'm always hearing people, especially boomers, saying, oh, these younger generations, they don't do this, they don't do that. They've got their head in the. And you know, the one I really loathe is when they're lazy. Like, they're not. You know, it's like, stop. Just stop saying these things. Now. They, they are responding to the world around them, too. Some people in their 20s and 30s, my God, picking up the phone is, what, why are you calling me? Send me a text? You know, they rather. And I think, I think if you're introverted at all, defaulting to text and email is. It feels good, it's easy. So, but, but some things about this. And, you know, there's a lot of talk right now, there's a, A podcast about young men. It's called Lost Boys. And you have young. Young men in particular are kind of getting lost in the mix. And because they're isolating into social media, they're not asking. One guy gave the example. He met a young young man who. He'd been on five dates and he didn't ask one of the girls out in person. They were all by text and things like this. And Scott Galloway is his name and he's on with. He does it with Anthony Scaramucci. Anyway, it's a, It's a great thing about boys. And it's frightening, frankly, because they're getting, they're getting their information and everything fed through social. And girls are very different. He gave an example of. He had a birthday party for his, one of his kids and a boy would come in. First of all, they're physically smaller than the girls. Now these are early teens and physically smaller than the girls. And the kid won't look him in the eye and doesn't really offer any. He said. Then a young woman comes in, she's taller, she shakes his hand, looks him in the eye. He said she could be like the junior senator of Pennsylvania. This is where she wants to go in her life and where she's going to intern and work the summer. Anyway, it's a, it's. I'll just plug that podcast too. Anyway, talking about younger, younger, all that as background. And then a lot of, a lot of younger lawyers are going through recently. They're working remotely. And you know, it's the same thing for kids, same things for young adults. So are you seeing, are you seeing differences in how early career attorneys, that's a better way to put it, approach business development? And how is the shift from in office mentoring affecting that?

[John Reed]

I'm very concerned for newer attorneys and, and candidly, I don't necessarily think, I think you're right to say newer attorneys and not necessarily younger attorneys because we have people that are going to law school later and sometimes they suffer the same reasons. Well, look, the old adage is, and it's true you graduated from law school, but you don't know how to practice law and you sure as hell don't know how to develop business. So you have to learn those things on the job. Now, you know, you, you could have come out of law school as God's gift to legal research and writing, and that gives you a leg up, particularly in litigation. Maybe you did moot court, maybe you did mock trial, but until you get in your courtroom the first time, until you do your first trial, until you have your first and you develop your C legs, it's all new. You have to learn that you can't implant a chip and be a great litigator. And I think it's equally as true for business development. You know, particular time, if I'm going to a large law firm to practice and clients are big, multimillion, dollar, perhaps billion dollar, whatever huge law departments do, I know how to ask for, but don't even know how to develop the relationship because there's such a hierarchy in my law firm and a hierarchy in that law department. How do I learn who I'm going peer to peer with at the different levels so you have to, you have to get guidance, you have to seek guidance. You have to be a sponge. And I would say, you know, and there's, there's all sorts of things here, Tom. I mean, when you've got client demands on billing, used to be partners would push more work down to associates, and that's not necessarily the same now. And so associates are looking to get their hours. So. So partners are working more, not having the time. Associates are trying to find the time, someone else to justify their existence. There's no time for those things. So that. So that's why I'm very concerned. Yeah, I think there's also this kind of emphasis on formal business development. You know, we've got to put a plan in place for this associate. And I just think if you stop and have a hallway conversation or come back from a client meeting and pull an associate and say, let me tell you what just happened. Really interesting conversation, you know, or, or you bring the associate along, maybe the first time, you're like, look, just drink and eat the crackers and don't say anything. But, but then, you know, give them a little more rope, give them a little more trust. Have them develop those relationships. So I, I think. And look, you can have that remotely, too. It's harder, but you can still have it. So I think this, this work from home remote thing is a little bit of an excuse by both sides. I think there's kind of equal culpability here. But let's face it, in the power dynamic, the associate's not going to feel as powerful as the partner. So the partner has to be the bigger person and do the teaching. Yeah, I think that's really important.

[Tom Hagee]

Yeah, that's, that's true. The in person mentoring somebody early in their career. You know, I started when I started off as a writer, reporter. What was I, 23? And. And I was in a. I was. My desks. My desk literally touched the desks of the other more seasoned guys, the managing editor and the. And the other editor. And they were old guys, John. They were 41 and 45. And I thought, oh, these fossils. I can learn a lot from these guys. Well, to hear them on the phone and to see the writing style and have them hear me on the phone and read my stuff and rip it up. It was painful, but it was so valuable. You know, it was like being put in a fire.

[John Reed]

Well, and I'm going to go not the full way with you on these extreme generational differences, but I will say, you know, particularly boomers and gen Xers, hey, it was good enough for the person who taught it to me. It's good enough for me. Certain types of matter rolls downhill, right? Whereas a lot of younger generations grew up in the everybody gets a trophy world. And can you please soft pedal my criticisms and whatever. And I think that the law is not forgiving. It can be a difficult practice. As we all know. There's a blend there of having to develop a thick skin, but also in the delivery, both sides.

[Tom Hagee]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do think that the experience and intellect really influenced like my kids grew up in that everybody gets a trophy, let's watch everybody's feelings world. And a lot of that was well intentioned, but the trophies were anyway, at one point I think the best. One of the things I said to my kids, you know, I don't have a lot of wisdom as a father, but once in a while something would come up. I'd say, just so you know, when you grow up in the world, not everybody cares. Not everyone cares about your feelings. And I knew one day there, you know, we were very liberal parents. I don't mean politically. I mean, you know, we let them do things. And I said also, so, you know, your parents are very easy on you when the world isn't going to be. And, and I, I knew their brains one day would figure that out. And they have. I mean, they're both in their 30s now and they're productive contributors, professionals. They both ended up working with children with learning disabilities. So I sent them, you know, one thing, I really sent them. Where did the money is here. But anyway. But they're, they have a lot of compassion. They're both working on advanced degrees and, you know, they figured it out, right? We're not going to get a trophy every time we get out of bed.

[John Reed]

But here's the thing. This is beautiful and thank you for that and congratulations to your kids and for you being the parents of those children. You're right, not everybody cares. But yet despite that sage wisdom, they found themselves going into an area where they have to care.

[Tom Hagee]

That's true.

[John Reed]

And I think that's a wonderful lesson and model for anybody, really. But for lawyers too, litigators, you still have to care. You have to care about the client's kids, the, the client's bottom line, you know, all those other things. And when you demonstrate that care, not only is, I think it's good for your soul, but it helps you expand the relationship and it helps you become that trusted advisor. That's this cliche term, but I still use It, I still love it. You know, I can be a, I can be a fantastic legal advisor, Tom. You, you, you know, you're a great lawyer, Tom, and I wouldn't do, I wouldn't make a legal decision without talking to you. Thanks, that's great. But when, when somebody comes to you and says, tom, I, I've relied on you. You're a fantastic lawyer. Where'd you buy your car?

[Tom Hagee]

Right.

[John Reed]

It's like you're imputed with more wisdom than you may necessarily deserve, but because of the breadth and depth of the relationship you have, there's that comfort, that chemistry, that rapport. So, so, yeah, going back to this idea that, you know, we can all be pardoned and say, well, nobody cares about me, so I'm not going to care about them. If you go the extra distance and you try that and learn about other people again, I think it gives you better perspective, especially in this day and age. But I, I think also makes you a better counselor.

[Tom Hagee]

Yeah, I think that's right. Showing a curiosity about the other person, I think is, is meaningful.

[John Reed]

Yeah, I, I always say that Alec Baldwin had it wrong. It's not abc. Always be closing. Always. It should be abc. Always be curious and to a lesser extent, always be conversing, because that's how you learn.

[Tom Hagee]

Yeah. Yeah. Let's jump into a litigator's brand and reputation. So how do you advise litigators who are professional, who are, who they want to serve, who do they want to be professionally? So what's your advice to them about, you know, identifying the ideal client and how they can be the person to best represent them?

[John Reed]

Yeah, I'm going to actually work backwards. I'm going to go back to the fishbowl. Let's work from inside the fishbowl. First, understanding that a brand is a promise, first and foremost. It's not logos, it's not clever taglines. It's a promise. And we are in the trust business. We are in the service delivery business. The promise is that I am going to act and behave and conduct myself and assist you in the way that I've represented it. Right. I'm not going to guarantee results, because I can't, but I can. I can promise these other things about myself as a lawyer. And when what you put out there, what you represent lines up with what you perform, that builds trust. So again, we're in the trust game, right? If I'm going to be like this, I say I'm like this, I'm going to be like this, and I'm like this, and you experience this and it's great. You're ahead of the game. But let's break down Brand for a second. So for lawyers, we're talking really about four different aspects here. I'd say first is role. I'm going to go through these a minute. Role, skill, context and style. When I do workshops on this, I'll say, you know, what's your role? Inevitably people say, I'm a litigator. You know, I'm a commercial litigator, I'm a trial attorney. Wrong answer. I am a problem solver. I am a dispute resolution expert who works outside the courtroom. So that helps you get to where you want to be in your practice. Just starting with what it is you ultimately want to achieve on behalf of the client. And whatever skills. Litigation, you know, it could be problem solving, but, but just don't go through the bullet points that you see on resumes. Look at your other skills too. I mean, interpersonal skills, empathy, you know, that's something that could be in that, that, that bucket too.

[Tom Hagee]

People never used to put that kind of thing on resumes. No, I'm likable.

[John Reed]

Yeah, well, first I wouldn't put that. Well, anybody that says I'm a people person, it's like, you're out. That's not, I hate that. So context is, is okay. Geographically, you know, I, I represent, you know, estate planning clients in this metro area or I represent clients in this vertical or mid market companies in the tech space. Whatever you define your context there. The last one I think is the most important and that's style. How do you do what you do? Okay, so if you're a litigator, are you a hard driving pit bull? Are you more of a facilitator, Are you a bridge builder? You know, think about that. So if we, if we look at those three, three, four things, excuse me, role and skill and context, it's kind of the how, you know, what of the equation. The differentiator is the style. Right. There are a lot of attorneys out there who say, I'm a hard charging attorney. I've got these skills. Literally, you know, I've got these skills and I work with these types of clients. But how you do what you do could be the thing that sets you apart. So I think, and it's a long belabored answer to your question, which is start first by thinking about those aspects of yourself. Understand the building blocks of who you are as a lawyer. And don't forget, you can also put in there who you want to be so if you don't have the skills that you want to represent or promote, you can go get them. Right. If you want to change your role a little bit, if you want to change your context, you can do that. And similarly, you can. You can say this is the personality or this is the style, the demeanor that I want to bring to what I do. You can make those choices.

[Tom Hagee]

Yeah. And I think it has to be authentically your. Your style. I've heard leading trial lawyers speak at my conferences over the years, and they would say to younger lawyers, like, don't try to be me. You know, figure out your style because, you know, you're gonna. It's gonna be more authentic, it's gonna be a lot easier for you to implement. But don't try to be me. I mean, certainly learn from great lawyers, but.

[John Reed]

And yet, and yet, going back to what we talked about a few moments ago, this is the way I learned it. This is the way that was taught to me. It was good for my mentor, it was good for me. You're going to do it too. So there's that danger, that message of maybe being heard, but isn't being parlayed down to the next generation of lawyers. But you're right about authenticity. Absolutely. And I think I would hope that lawyers find passion in what they do. Not everybody does.

[Tom Hagee]

No.

[John Reed]

So at least know what you're interested in and what motivates you and see if that can't be part of that brand. If you like tech and you want to work in ip, you're not necessarily going to be a great estate planning attorney, right?

[Tom Hagee]

No.

[John Reed]

If you want to work with people, maybe that's, you know, working on the council side of employment or working with. In family law or something like that. If you like it to be a little more. Sterile is the wrong word, but a little more, you know, cut and dry by the books, whatever great corporate. I mean, you, you got to come to the table with some semblance of what interests you and then at least have that push you in the right direction.

[Tom Hagee]

Yeah. Okay.

[John Reed]

The.

[Tom Hagee]

So let's talk about reputation. You know, it's built over time. How do you. What's. What steps can litigators take to define what they want to be known for? I mean, we've talking about this a bit, but help you balancing your passion with practability. Practicality.

[John Reed]

Practical.

[Tom Hagee]

Diction is my thing.

[John Reed]

I would say. Look, I can't tell you how many times I've heard it. Maybe you as well, doing a good job gets you more business Doing a good job is your calling card. No, doing a good job is table stakes. Doing a good job lets you stay at the firm or keep the doors open. It is not a growth move. So, so I take that off the table and let's disabuse people of that notion that that's what they have to do. I think it's incumbent on lawyers to think about what goes into a relationship and always take the higher ground, take the initiative. We are insanely busy, all of us, everywhere, it seems. And so if you leave a voicemail for somebody and you expect them to call you back in an hour, don't be offended if they don't. But at the same time, don't keep calling back and saying, it's me again, it's me again. Following up, following up, following up. Be creative in your pursuit and your relationship building. I think that the thing that I would leave people with is always, always, always find ways to demonstrate what it's like to work with you.

[Tom Hagee]

Right?

[John Reed]

So if you are myopic in that I want to handle your litigation and that's the only thing you're asking about, are you vulnerable in any areas, any errors? Are you exposed? You know, what's your litigation portfolio and what are the cases handle things like that. Right? Okay, great. But how about your kids? How's your business going? What, what are, what are the successes that you've enjoyed? Because when I represent you as your attorney, I want to, I want to have a relationship with you. Because even, look, if I'm a, if I'm a personal injury attorney, hopefully, hopefully I'm going to represent you once. Right. It's a shot I get. But I want to have a relationship with you so that if you know somebody else that finds themselves in a bad situation and needs my help, that you would think of me because you had a favorable experience, maybe not the result. And sometimes it's hard to divorce those two things, but that's what you're going for. And frankly, Tom, I think it's more fulfilling if we go back to this trusted advisor thing. When you get to the trusted advisor level, not only is it you giving advice and your client is heeding that advice, but it's also you being personally fulfilled because you got that relationship with them. Not that they're doing blindly what you tell them to do, but that you've got that give and take. And if you want to really go into the economics of it, when you get to the trusted advisor level, you're rate increase proof people. The thought talk about Sticky lawyers. Right. The thought about somebody leaving you as a lawyer to go to another firm is abhorrent. That lawyer's sticky. You're sticking with that time. Yeah. So maybe you can't get 20 increases every year, but you can maintain your premium and. And maintain that relationship. Yeah.

[Tom Hagee]

As in any business, maintaining the. The client is way more. It's a lot less expensive than having to go out and get a new one.

[John Reed]

Easier to keep it and then go find one. Yeah, that's right.

[Tom Hagee]

That's right. So. But you hit on the thing, too. The, The. We're litigators. We. You talked about this earlier. You know, a lot of the conversations are transactional, but, you know, you want to get into things, understanding their business. Like I might ask a business client, you know, how are tariffs, Is that going to affect your business or whatever. Or whatever's in the news. That's. Anything I say is controversial. But, you know, you. You rely on migrant workers. How is this affect. You know, but asking them anything that shows an interest in their business and educates you and how to represent them. So I think asking those kinds of.

[John Reed]

Questions, you know, here's a gem, and I can only tell you anecdotally how powerful it is. Go to the client's business. Right. So you're in another state and you're representing them.

[Tom Hagee]

Or.

[John Reed]

Or they're a new client. Go to the factory floor. Go to the headquarters. Learn by walking around. And let me tell you some stories about how this has worked. First off, personally, in a prior life, I was invited by the general counsel of a company to meet with him in his offices. This company had acquired because of the owner and a very impressive art collection. So our meeting may have lasted 15 minutes. I was there for an hour and a half being shown this $200,000 whatever or more painting over the water cooler.

[Tom Hagee]

Right.

[John Reed]

And the thing in the lobby and whatever. And the pride that he had to show me these things. More valuable than anything we decided in the meeting.

[Tom Hagee]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Reed]

So there's that. The other thing is, if you go to meet with the CFO and on the way to his office, you walk past the HR director's office or the director of sales or marketing or whatever, maybe he'll stop and introduce you. Maybe you can find a way to get introduced so you expand your relationship that way. So, you know, again, we would say, oh, well, you know, younger generations, they just want to be on the phone and they just want to text for this type of thing. It's. It's more efficient and Easier for me to be in my office, communicate with my clients. I'm saying that you took us out of the chair, go where the client is.

[Tom Hagee]

Watch your language.

[John Reed]

Well, I know it's. Sorry, now you got to check the explicit box on this. I'm sorry.

[Tom Hagee]

That's right. It's not for children. We're going to create a lot of Soros with our use of Yiddish on this podcast. Now, the, you know, we've, we've been. Wow. We've been delightfully talking. Time is. Time is flying. So I want to, I do want to close with two things. One is if you had, you know, two or three things that a litigator should do right now or start doing daily or weekly to develop business. What would those be?

[John Reed]

A couple things. Your client is at the center of a universe. Your prospective client is at the center of a universe. In that orbit are other people. If it's a business owner, they may have a financial advisor, they may have an outside cpa, they may have a real estate agent, they may have whatever. As you get to know them, you can say, you know, who else do you rely on in your world? Because I, you know, I'd like to meet more people that you know. So, you know, because I think it would just help me be a better representative or better counselor to you. So I think, think about that augmented client, if you will, and you've got the end. You can say, hey, you know, we both work with, with Joe and I, I thought I'd come. Maybe I'd like to learn more about you. And whatever. Now you're. You're doubling the referral sources, and you've got bona fides already because you got the client relationship that's mutually between you. So there's that. The other thing is networking events, client meetings, whatever. When you meet with somebody who can be a strategic partner to you as client or other revenue generator for you, when you leave that meeting, whether it's where, maybe windshield time, whatever, stop, take a few minutes and say, what did I learn in that conversation that I can act on? Yeah, okay. So we confuse follow up with action. You know, you may say, well, I'm going to follow up on Tuesday. I'm going to call him on Tuesday, that's procedural. That's the method of how you're going to contact the person next. When you say, what did I just learn that I can act on, whether it's the phone or texting or US Mail or whatever, it doesn't matter. Because the action is, I'm going To make that recommendation to them. I'm going to give them that referral. I'm going to send them that, that book on, you know, wines of Tuscany. Because they're going to Italy next week.

[Tom Hagee]

That's right.

[John Reed]

And if you found other things to talk about besides the law, it's going to make it so much more fun and interesting and they're going to be surprised because you've demonstrated what it's like to work with you. You're broader than your litigator title, right?

[Tom Hagee]

Yeah. It's just so true. I mean, if you, if you ask me about this, this print of this painting that's over my shoulder about, about boxing, I would binge your ear for the next hour and a half about the history of boxing because I was nuts for it, following it and, and it would just mean so much, you know. Anyway, speaking of personal things, I'm also a dog lover. There's one on the couch behind me snoozing away. A 15 year old English cocker spaniel, healthy as can be. He's deaf, but my gosh, he's, he still acts like a puppy or so. I love dogs. And so you're doing some work with, with leader dogs. Tell, tell us about that.

[John Reed]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's one of the greatest joys of my life. Tom. I'm currently honored to be the chairman of the board for Leader Dogs for the Blind. And it's an organization that helps people who are blind or low vision, really, not only across the country, but around the world to gain independence. The dog part is a little bit of a misnomer. Yes, we do a fantastic job of, from breeding to training and placement of dogs, but we also do white cane training, what's called orientation and mobility training. And I think apropos of what we're talking about here, one of the really interesting developments of the past year, we hired our first ever psychosocial director. So this is a person who's dealing with clients, clients who may be on the wait list, clients who may have left campus after getting their dog, clients who may have a dog that's retiring. All these different emotional things they're dealing with which are unique to that situation. We are all in on the whole client and it's really, it's heartening, it's fulfilling. And the board is great. The team there is great. I can't say enough.

[Tom Hagee]

And the name of it again, Leader.

[John Reed]

Dogs for the Blind.

[Tom Hagee]

And that's the. Is that the website?

[John Reed]

It may be leaderdog.org I'll put it.

[Tom Hagee]

In the show notes.

[John Reed]

Please do, please do. Yeah, I can't say enough.

[Tom Hagee]

What a, what a.

[John Reed]

Can I can, I want. No, we're going to wrap up here. And I'm, I'm the person that has taken the most time talking here today. But if I can go back before Leader Dog, as great as that was, I want to kind of leave with two stories, if I may, that kind of typify the things we've been talking about. I was once counseling a guy, coaching him, and he called me about, I don't know, 10 o' clock in the morning and he said, hey, I'm having lunch with the general counsel of a company that we haven't worked with in a few years and I don't really know what went wrong. What should I talk about? I don't know. I mean, do you think you should go in there and say, how did we screw up or what's. I mean, why start with that? I said, just go talk. Just understand this person. So he called me back later in the day and, and I said, great, what did you learn that you can act on? And he said, well, I don't know. But the weirdest thing, this general counsel, she collects whiskey bottles, antique whiskey bottles. Great. So we went to everybody, the everything store. We went to Amazon together and we found a coffee table book on distilleries or glass making in the alcohol interest. Whatever it was, he had it sent overnight. She couldn't call fast enough to say thank you. I can't believe you picked up on that. Whatever. I couldn't tell you whether it led to business immediately, but it certainly warmed up that relationship.

[Tom Hagee]

Sure.

[John Reed]

So that's that idea of thinking beyond your litigation. And then the other story, which I like to tell is I was coaching another attorney who, when I start coaching attorneys, I start with where they are. I don't have a playbook. Right. We're not going to start on page number one of the textbook and you graduate eight chapters later, where are you? And he said, you know, look, I got to tell you, we're a, we're a two minivan family. We got kids that are playing sports all the time. So he says, I'm leaving the office at 3:34, going home, putting on sweats, but I'm taking my trial case in this case to the food court at the hockey arena. And he said, you know, what do I do? And I said, well, how about this? Leave the suit on, leave the trial case in the car, in the van and go into the stands and just start talking to other parents. Same question. What do I talk about? I don't know. Right. How about that new Galaxy Samsung phone?

[Tom Hagee]

Right.

[John Reed]

How about those Bears? I mean, you know, how is your child liking playing on this team?

[Tom Hagee]

Right.

[John Reed]

And. And so. And kind of an introvert. So this was a little, you know, icky, a little prickly for him. But I was so pleased about, I don't know, a month or six. Six weeks later, we met again. And he came and he's kind of smiling, and I said, what's the deal? And he said, well, so I went to a hockey game, one of my son's hockey games over the weekend, and I was talking to one of the moms, and the dad walked over, and I had not met him yet. And so we were introduced, and the dad said to me, oh, you're so. And so. You're like the mayor of the rink. You know, everybody. The mayor. So, yeah, I love that. The mayor of the rink. So he went from a very short time, and God bless him for throwing himself into this. Just talking. And the next story that goes on top of that is one of the dads that he met, the son had recently joined the team because they had moved in from out of town, and the reason they had moved in from out of town was so this dad could become the new CEO of this company. And he says to the attorney, I'm coaching. Hey, we've got a tournament in Pittsburgh next weekend. What do you say we drive together?

[Tom Hagee]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of time on the road together.

[John Reed]

Exactly, exactly.

[Tom Hagee]

That's great.

[John Reed]

A lot of messages and stories there, but I love those two stories. They kind of epitomize what success means to me and what I think you can be as a litigator or any attorney.

[Tom Hagee]

Yeah, well, thanks for bringing me back to that. Well, John Reed, we've been talking for an hour, and it's flown by. I've really enjoyed talking to you. I think people are going to enjoy this. I can't wait to get it out there and let's. Let's talk again.

[John Reed]

I would love to. This has been so fun for me. This is easy. This is great. This is. This is what I do.

[Tom Hagee]

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Emerging Litigation podcast. I want to thank John Reed for sharing all of his insights and for being a good sport, frankly. I was just feeling great and had my first cup of coffee in probably 10 days. I had Covid. It's not as much fun as I remember it. John. John, Was great in talking to me. My voice was still raspy. It's still a little raspy. Very Suzanne Plechette. Which almost no one listening to this will know who that is, but thanks to John, and we did have some fun with this. And I'm including some of the outtakes right after this, so thanks again. This is Tom Hagee, the Emerging Litigation podcast. Thanks for listening. Good God. All right, maybe I should turn myself my mic down a little. Oh, yeah, you're coming through loud and clear. I've got to stop saying all these filler words, John. So, you know, maybe. Maybe I should have a tip jar or something for every time I say so and every time I say gotcha. I don't know if you listen to your own podcast a lot, man, I annoy me so much. Totally. Yeah. Is that a real background? Because you live in a beauty. If it's real, you live in a beautiful place.

[John Reed]

No, that's.

[Tom Hagee]

I'm.

[John Reed]

I'm in a van by the river.

[Tom Hagee]

Van down by the river. One of the best. Gosh, that's kind of your profession, isn't it? Yep. You're not exactly a motivational speaker, but you're in that John Candy. No, it's not John Candy.

[John Reed]

Chris Farley.

[Tom Hagee]

I put my heavyset comedians into. Into one file. I'm fresh off of COVID Good for you. And I'm. Thank you. Thanks. It's a filter, and I am feeling. And I've had my first cup of coffee. You know, your taste buds really go berserk. Coffee tasted awful, like battery acid. I had it today. I'm having it today. I am jacked. You know, I've got. I slept fairly well. I'm off of COVID Wow. Coffee's caffeine. It's a lot.

[John Reed]

It's.

[Tom Hagee]

It really gets you rolling.

[John Reed]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think more children should drink it, actually.

[Tom Hagee]

Yeah, that and smoking cigarettes. So, no, we're against that. Just. Just. I think on the record.

[John Reed]

We're recording.

[Tom Hagee]

Yes. Both of us. Bad kids. Stay in school, don't smoke. I told my kids at a certain age, I said, I. You know, because tattoos and getting your nose pierced. I said, I don't care. Get all the tattoos you want and Pierce, whatever, and just don't smoke. Boy, did they take me up on it. The tattoos are quite. Quite elaborate. Excuse me. I'm gonna hit my cough. Hold on. I'm gonna hit my cough button. Did that work?

[John Reed]

Yes. Oh, my gosh. You're like Mel Torme now.

[Tom Hagee]

Yes, I am. To clear some things. Out.