Emerging Litigation Podcast
Episode Title: Unraveling "Reverse Discrimination" with Leah Stiegler
Date: October 10, 2025
Host: Tom Hagy
Guest: Leah Stiegler (Attorney, Woods Rogers)

Overview

This episode of Emerging Litigation Podcast dives into the contentious and evolving area of "reverse discrimination" in employment law—a term widely used in the media but controversial among legal professionals. Host Tom Hagy welcomes back employment attorney Leah Stiegler to discuss the impact of a recent Supreme Court decision (Ames v. Ohio Department of Youth Services), issues surrounding Title VII, practical implications for employers, the politics of DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion), and the growing complexity of workplace discrimination claims including intersectionality and religious accommodation.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Supreme Court’s Ames Decision and "Reverse Discrimination"

[03:08 – 07:01]

• Case Focus: Ames v. Ohio Department of Youth Services addresses whether “majority” group plaintiffs (white, heterosexual, etc.) must meet a higher evidentiary burden than minorities to prove disparate treatment under Title VII.

• Background Circumstances Test: The lower court had required majority-group plaintiffs to prove additional “background circumstances” suggesting bias against them.

• Unanimous Rejection: The Supreme Court rejected this heightened standard, ruling Title VII protects all, equally.

• Quote:

  "The Supreme Court of the United States on appeal said no, no, no, we’re not gonna... put in place different standards for different people. That discrimination is discrimination."
  — Leah Stiegler [06:44]

• Terminology: Stiegler emphasizes that “reverse discrimination” is simply “discrimination”—the label is unnecessary from a legal perspective, but persists in media and public debate.

2. The Shifting Meaning of “Majority” and Geographic Context

[07:03 – 10:19]

• Majority Definition is Fluid: Stiegler and Hagy note demographic shifts and local variation, referencing 2020 Census data and regional differences (e.g., population and power not always aligned; local context matters).

• Mock Trial Results: Stiegler describes conducting mock trials on the Ames facts in Lynchburg (conservative) and Richmond (liberal), VA:

  • Lynchburg jury (conservative) awarded $600,000 to the white male plaintiff.
  • Richmond jury (liberal) sided with the defense.

• Quote:

  “The same facts, with two very different results. And I think a lot of that is geographical.”
  — Leah Stiegler [10:16]

3. High-Profile Reverse Discrimination Claims and DEI Fallout

[10:31 – 12:43]

• Novant Health Case: A white male VP replaced by a black female after diversity initiatives; awarded $13 million for discrimination.
• DEI Initiatives Under Fire: Stiegler: Increasing lawsuits against diversity programs, perceptions that DEI means unlawful quotas or “reverse” discrimination.

4. Intersectional Discrimination

[15:17 – 16:49]

• Definition: Discrimination based on the overlap of two or more protected classifications (e.g., race and gender).
• Example:

  “...because she is a black woman, [plaintiff] claimed the company imposed this bias against her, that she was an angry black woman.”
  — Leah Stiegler [16:23]

• Attorney Advice: Intersectional claims are emerging and complicate the landscape for both plaintiffs and employers.

5. Title VII Misconceptions and the McDonnell Douglas Framework

[14:35 – 22:14]

• Myth-Busting: Title VII protects everyone, not just minorities or women.

• Burden-Shifting Explained: Quick primer on McDonnell Douglas burden-shifting:

  1. Prima Facie Case: Low bar; e.g., plaintiff shows membership in protected class, qualified, suffered adverse action.
  2. Employer's Burden: Must produce a non-discriminatory reason for the action.
  3. Plaintiff’s Rebuttal: Can argue the reason is pretextual, using evidence (records, statements, statistics).

• Memorable Quote:

  “My general advice to managers is: talk less. Aren’t you about to retire? When are you pregnant?... How else can we step in it?”
  — Tom Hagy [22:00]

6. Training, DEI Fatigue, and Sensitivity

[24:01 – 29:31]

• Employer Advice: “Still conduct anti-discrimination and harassment trainings”—avoiding training due to fear of backlash or lawsuits is risky (Title VII is still law).
• New Lawsuits: Employees refusing DEI or harassment training may claim retaliation if terminated.
• Quote:

  “Many employers are hesitant, mainly because you could have that one special employee in the audience... who’s going to say my desire to not attend this training is protected activity.”
  — Leah Stiegler [28:05]

7. Executive Orders and Religion in the Workplace

[29:31 – 33:18]

• Recent Executive Orders:

  • Expanding religious expression rights in the federal workplace (notably under Trump administration, e.g., EO 14202).

• Impact:

  • Federal workplace now “okays” proselytizing if respectful and not pervasive/offensive.
  • Laws haven’t substantively changed, but confusion and potential for greater religious-based discrimination claims may arise.

• Quote:

  “What I don’t like about this executive order is, it probably doesn’t do anything to change law, but it just puts confusion out there...”
  — Leah Stiegler [32:47]

• Protected Beliefs: Even non-traditional or non-mainstream beliefs (e.g., Flying Spaghetti Monster) may be protected if sincerely held.

8. Broader Notes—Religious and Ethnic Discrimination

[34:08 – 36:56]

• Regional and Historical Discrimination: Examples from Boston and Pennsylvania—shifting lines of discrimination by ethnic groups, even within religious communities.
• Accommodation: Employers should avoid judging the validity of employees’ beliefs; focus on reasonable accommodation and avoiding workplace disruption.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• [06:44] Leah Stiegler:

  “Discrimination is discrimination. Title VII says we protect people in the workplace on the basis of sex, gender, race, religion, national origin... It doesn't say that because you’re in one group or another group, you have a different standard.”

• [10:16] Leah Stiegler:

  “The same facts, with two very different results. And I think a lot of that is geographical.”

• [22:00] Tom Hagy:

  “My general advice to managers is: talk less. Aren’t you about to retire? When are you pregnant?... How else can we step in it?”

• [28:05] Leah Stiegler:

  “Many employers are hesitant... mainly because you could have that one special employee... who’s going to say my desire to not attend this training is protected activity.”

• [32:47] Leah Stiegler:

  “What I don’t like about this executive order is it probably doesn’t do anything to change law, but it just puts confusion out there that lets people say, oh, yeah, so we can proselytize at work now, and you can’t do anything about it. Just like this idea of diversity is unlawful...”

• [35:11] Leah Stiegler:

  “The law doesn’t protect an employee's belief to a particular denomination... Even atheism, if it’s a sincerely held belief, can be your belief system and [is protected].”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:08 – 07:01] Overview of Ames case, background circumstances rule, and equal standards.
• [07:03 – 10:19] What is “majority”? Geographic and demographic complexity; mock trial insights.
• [10:31 – 12:43] Real-life lawsuits: Novant Health and DEI backlashes.
• [14:35 – 18:24] Coverage of Title VII, misconceptions, intersectionality.
• [18:44 – 22:14] McDonnell Douglas burden-shifting explained.
• [24:01 – 29:31] Training, DEI fears, employer challenges.
• [29:31 – 33:18] Executive orders, religious rights, practical implications.
• [34:08 – 36:56] Ethnic/religious workplace dynamics, accommodation advice.

Tone and Style Notes

• Conversational & Accessible: Tom and Leah use humor, real-life anecdotes, and conversational exchanges, making complex legal concepts approachable.
• Balanced but Candid: The discussion occasionally touches politics, but consistently circles back to practical legal advice for employers and the universal reach of discrimination law.

Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced overview of the expanding landscape around workplace discrimination, highlighting recent courtroom shifts, evolving terminology, and front-line employer concerns about training, compliance, and accommodation. Leah Stiegler stresses the importance of clear, consistent anti-discrimination policies—reminding listeners that, regardless of political and demographic shifts, discrimination protections under Title VII apply to everyone.

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Editor@LitigationConferences.com