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- [00:01]
Anita Arnand
If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter. Sign up to empire club@www.empirepoduk.com. want to shop Walmart Black Friday deals first. Walmart plus members get early access to our hottest deals. Join now and get 50% off a one year annual membership. Shop Black Friday deals first with Walmart.
- [00:31]
William Dalrymple
Plus seed terms@walmartplus.com this episode is brought.
- [00:35]
Anita Arnand
To you by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate First. Like you know, to check the date of the big game first before you accidentally buy tickets on your 20th wedding.
- [00:48]
William Dalrymple
Anniversary and have to spend the next.
- [00:50]
Anita Arnand
20 years of your marriage making up for it.
- [00:53]
William Dalrymple
Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote.
- [00:57]
Anita Arnand
That could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate Savings.
- [01:00]
William Dalrymple
Vary terms apply.
- [01:01]
Anita Arnand
Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and.
- [01:03]
William Dalrymple
Affiliates Northbrook, il, Illinois Seriously, Diane, was Colgate your secret to winning Best Smile back in high school?
- [01:11]
Anita Arnand
Yep, and it still is. I even work overnight.
- [01:14]
William Dalrymple
Huh?
- [01:15]
Anita Arnand
Colgate's Optic White overnight whitening pen works overnight. So after one week I can show up confident and reunion ready.
- [01:22]
William Dalrymple
And here I was bragging about my kids.
- [01:24]
Anita Arnand
Colgate Optic White. Find it at all major retailers.
- [01:40]
William Dalrymple
Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arnim and me, William Durimble. That was worse than the last one. What? Have you been encouraged on your world tour to put it back in?
- [01:50]
Anita Arnand
No, I got to bed at 4 o'clock last time I finally got into Mumbai, so I think a wee bit weary.
- [01:55]
William Dalrymple
So you're doing a stellar job of doing this little podcast. All right, but look, we're on episode three of the Story of Barbara. The last time we met you, we were talking about the 42 year old Barbara. Now, having left his home in Kabul in autumn of 1525, he's marched on northern India. He's gathered support from people who hate the Sultan of the Delhi Sultanate. And he has. He's done very, very well. And what he wants, as William highlighted, was to capture the wealth of a man who had lots. Lordi had been dismembered and pulled apart and all of his forces had been destroyed. But he has got this vision in mind and it's based on something because his ancestor Timur had sacked Delhi a century earlier, so he had this idea of what that might feel like.
- [02:43]
Anita Arnand
So the reality, I think, must have been a little bit disappointing for Babur because Delhi had been a very rich country, and the south of India, particularly the kingdom of Vijayanagara, had been even richer. But by the time that Babur gets to Delhi, Delhi is much reduced. The Lodis have mismanaged their sultanate, which is one of the reasons that people were giving invitations to Babur to come and take it from him. And in Delhi, he doesn't get much, not least because he doesn't loot it. But then there is a wonderful surprise. Babur sends his son Humayun, who we're going to hear a lot more about in the next episode, straight to Agra. And it's Agra, which is the Lodi capital at this point, although it's a smaller city than Delhi. The Lodis have made their fort and their center of administration 100 miles south of Delhi in Agra. And there, as chance would have it, the city contains a man called Bikramjeet, who's the Raja of Gwalior. And he happens to be in Agra when all this takes place. He's caught, I think, by surprise by the speed of the Mughal advance. And he has on him what Babur rather nicely puts in his diary. He says, bikramjeet made my son a voluntary offering of a mass of jewels and valuables, amongst which was the famous diamond which Sultan Aladdin Khalji must have brought. Its reputation is that every appraiser has estimated its value at two and a half days. Food for the whole world. Apparently, it weighs eight miskals. Humayun offered it to me when I arrived in Agra, and I just gave it back to him. Now, this seems very likely to be our old friend.
- [04:32]
William Dalrymple
I've got a guess. Is it. Is it. Is it our friend?
- [04:36]
Anita Arnand
It probably is. No one knows for sure. And it's known usually as Barbour's diamond because there is no proof that it is the Koh I Noor. But it's that kind of size. Eight mysticals is the same size as the Koh I Noor.
- [04:47]
William Dalrymple
The Koh I Noor diamond that William and I have talked extensively about on this podcast and written a book about, a very fine book, actually, where we first came together. Can I just say that? Does he give him the diamond, expecting it back? Is it the kind of gift where. Oh, no, no, you shouldn't have.
- [05:01]
Anita Arnand
It's staying in the family. So.
- [05:03]
William Dalrymple
Okay.
- [05:03]
Anita Arnand
But he goes on, he says no private individual has ever seen such a diamond or heard of it, nor is there any mention of in any book. And we don't know. Description's too vague to be certain. And there are certainly a number of mega diamonds circulating in India at this time. But this one is a whopper.
- [05:21]
William Dalrymple
It is a whopper. Size and heft of a hen's egg, my friend. Can I just say a little bit about how Babur, you know, okay, he finds the diamond, which is probably solace, because he really does not like India.
- [05:33]
Anita Arnand
It doesn't help that he arrives in May. And it's very hard to find anyone that would enjoy Delhi in May at any time in history. It's very, very hot indeed.
- [05:41]
William Dalrymple
What he says is Hindustan is a place of little charm. There is no beauty in its people. Rude. No graceful social intercourse, no poetic talent or understanding. No etiquette, nobility or manliness. Very rude. The arts and crafts have no harmony or symmetry. There are no good horses, meat, grapes, melons or other fruit. There is no ice. There's no cold water, good food or bread in the markets. There are no baths. There are no schools. There are no candles, no torches or even candlesticks. Basically, he thinks it's a disaster.
- [06:15]
Anita Arnand
Worst of all, he says, are the jackfruits, which tasted like the revolting intestines of sheep. He said. And then he says, on the plus side, Hindustan is a large country with lots of gold and money. So he's wrong about almost everything. You can go through that list. I mean, it's a value judgment. Most people would say that the most beautiful people on earth are from India.
- [06:40]
William Dalrymple
Oh, you flatterer.
- [06:41]
Anita Arnand
It's true. It's true. Look at all those beauty contests year after year. And also the idea that there's no poetic talent. You know, there's endless, wonderful poets right through Indian history. The Lodi Gardens are full of wonderful tombs. There's no arts or craft. There are fantastic melons, grapes and other fruits, including mangoes, which is what originally attract him. And there are lots of Sultanate period baths, lots of even more madrasas. So he's kind of wrong about everything. It's just hot and he's miserable. And I know that feeling from Delhi in May where you just feel, oh, Lord, I want to get out of here and go to the hills.
- [07:17]
William Dalrymple
Or it's one of Those reviews on TripAdvisor where you know that Hindustan would make a reply in short order if I think you're fine. You were rude to the staff, you didn't tip very well, and you were a grumpy old bastard. So, you know, it's one. It's one of those things. It does Feel rather unfair. Also, I wanted to say something about Agra, because Agra now is known for the Taj Mahal, but there isn't a Taj Mahal in Agra, because that has to be one of the heirs who will build that in years to come.
- [07:46]
Anita Arnand
Well, that actually is an interesting thing you say, because the one thing he does in Agra is he builds the first Mughal garden. Now, several things to be said about his idea that there's no gardens. India has a garden tradition going back about 3,000 years, and there are beautiful ancient gardens described in all the ancient texts. We have fragments of one of the most ancient gardens in South Asia, surviving in Sri Lanka. And you can go and see it today, going right back, I think, to the fifth century. There are incredible gardens a little bit further south than where Babur was from. This period in Golconda, for example, had an incredible Islamic garden tradition already by this stage. So he's just wrong. But anyway, the point is, when he gets to Agra, he can't find a garden he likes. And so the first thing he does is to build one at a place called Arambag, which today is called Rambug. It means the Garden of Rest in Persian. And now it's become so Hinduized into rambugs, the Garden of Lord Ra. But he builds cascaded fountains and a hammam, and he calls it the Garden of Eight Paradises, with canals and raised walkways on the Persian plan. And here he plants his familiar Afghan grapes and melons that he loves. So he builds his own little oasis where he can pretend, you know, rather like the Brits building Simla and sort of trying to create something that was familiar with cottage gardens and names of houses like you get in England. So Bubble, like any expat in a new country, tries to make himself feel at home there. But what this is in this case is not just building himself a cottage garden, it's starting the great Mughal garden tradition, which in due course will produce some of the most beautiful gardens ever built by mankind, including that around the touch.
- [09:30]
William Dalrymple
So, I mean, he's cultivating the gardens, but he's also using this time to cultivate his artillery because, you know, we mentioned that, you know, he had been successful against the Lodis because they had not embraced the idea of the guns as well as he had. And you mentioned a name in the last episode, Ustadeli, who spends this time in Agra trying to cast new guns and cannons for him and make new shot at cannibals.
- [09:56]
Anita Arnand
It sounds as if Ustad Ali's working rather harder than Babur at this point, who is just sitting back moaning about the.
- [10:02]
William Dalrymple
Yeah, I mean, Babur's sort of, you know, piddling around, building himself up. Grumpy, sort of like, you know, the Mughal Monty Don, planting things wherever he can. But you've got. In the meantime, Osad Ali is trying very, very hard to create an army fit for the future.
- [10:17]
Anita Arnand
And there's a good reason for this, we're told.
- [10:19]
William Dalrymple
He builds a circle of eight furnaces from each of which molten metal dribbles into a central mould. So just imagine sort of, you know, Mordor kind of situation here.
- [10:29]
Anita Arnand
This is Mordor. Yes, this is Lord of the Rings again, you can see.
- [10:31]
William Dalrymple
Yeah, exactly. But. But Porous Thardelli, he makes some kind of miscalculation. He's built all of these things and they're supposed to be running molten metal into the middle, which can then be fashioned into everything. But the furnaces all run dry before the mold is full in the middle. So he's so distressed with Sad Ali that he goes to Barbara and he says, I am so ashamed. I shall throw myself into the molten liquid metal because I'm that ashamed, I've let you down. But it said, Barbara says, you know, we comforted him, we put a robe of honor on him and we brought him out of his shame. So Sutherland, you know, basically, pull yourself together and he starts working again. And as you say, with good reason, because there is another threat on the horizon.
- [11:13]
Anita Arnand
Exactly. Because although he's successfully defeated the Lodis, the Lodis are by no means the biggest power in North India. In the old days, if you'd conquered the Delhi Sultan, you'd have had a very good reason to think you can lie back and sit in Arambag for a year or two and build as many gardens as you like. But that's not the case with the Lodis, because the Lodis are just a mere regional power that he's conquered. And although he now has a foothold in India, he has an army heading towards him. And this is led by the Rajput leader Ra Sanga, who is the leader of this great. I mean, today, when people go on holiday to India from the west, they tend to go first to Rajasthan because of the color of the Rajputs in the desert. This is the whole of Rajasthan now massing against Babur.
- [12:00]
William Dalrymple
We should say a little about the Rajputs. I mean, they are a very ancient aristocratic lineage. They are based on martial principles. You know, they are fighters as well as builders. So they're not going to be any Pushover. Maybe that's why. I mean, you can tell us more about the Rajabuts in a second. But I mean, that's why at this sort of three months after his offered suicide in a vat of molten metal, Usad Ali actually has some good news. And he comes to Baba and he says, look, I've done it. I've made it. And he creates what Baba writes is a cannon. I mean, it's a mortar. And he says he was delighted to discover it would throw a large stone nearly a mile. And that is going to be massively important because that is a real breakthrough, a technological breakthrough that Usaele, who hasn't turned himself into some kind of ornament, has now given him. Because the Rajputs fight until they win or they die. That's their credo, isn't it?
- [12:50]
Anita Arnand
Exactly that. And the idea of what it means to be a Rajput has been developing for centuries, that they are a very ancient lineage. But historians seem to agree that it's around the 1500s that this whole warrior identity sort of solidifies and takes real political shape. So when Rana Sangha is marching on Babur, he's doing as the leader of these different clans from the desert, all of whom have these strong martial traditions. And this is a far more serious army than that put together by the Lodis. It is by no means the case that he's won Hindustan, yet the big challenge is ahead of him. And the battle where they meet is the battle of Kanua.
- [13:34]
William Dalrymple
The thing about Rana Sangha, as opposed to the Lodi leader who was deeply unpopular, is that he wears his bravery on his face, because this is a man who's already lost an eye in battle. And he leads charges. He doesn't sort of, you know, sort of cow in the background playing politics and granting favors to inconsequential men who flatter him. So, you know, the confrontation which finally happens in the battle of Khanwa, you're absolutely right, is going to be massive. It's 1527. Baba and his troops are facing Rana Sangha, who has an army of 80,000 men.
- [14:06]
Anita Arnand
Rana Sangha is the same dynasty of Rajputs that now rule from Udaipur. And in the era of Rana Sangha, before Udaipur is built, they're ruling from the great city of Chittaur, which is one of the greatest fortresses in Rajasthan. And there's this wonderful architecture from this period and a little bit before it, including this extraordinary victory tower when you go there today. And Rana Sangha has united under his rule most of Rajasthan, Gujarat and Madhya Pradesh. So he's one of the most powerful Rajput rulers in history.
- [14:42]
William Dalrymple
But the other thing about Rana Sangha is that he has a narrative behind him that, you know, these are people of Hindustan and Baba represents an invading force. They are foreigners, they have a different religion, they are a different people. So we have to fight them. So his 80,000 strong cavalry have absolute reasons to fight and win. So this is not going to be an easy clash. What happens when they face off and.
- [15:08]
Anita Arnand
Babur realizes that and knowing that this is going to be the most difficult battle he's ever had, including fighting the Uzbeks and Shaibani Khan, is that he suddenly comes over religious, which is very unbabel. Babur is not a religious. And he decides to make a vow that he will abjure alcohol, which is one of his greatest pleasures. And he makes this vow that he will give up alcohol for God and hope he will win because of his sort of. He gives it a religious identity is what I'm trying to say, which is not at all his normal tone. If you read his memoir, there's very little reference to religion or faith. He's not a jihadi of the faith. But at this point, faced with an army of Rajputs, an enemy he has no knowledge of, he suddenly turns himself into aghazi. And the rhetoric he's using to sort of rally his troops is the language of Islam.
- [16:05]
William Dalrymple
Can I not take issue, but just maybe question a little bit about how he's not a religious man and he certainly hasn't shown any signs of being particularly religious. You know, the fact he can do deals with Shias shows that it doesn't matter that much. I mean, he's more pragmatic than he is of the faith militant, if you like, because he, when he does, and this is not long afterwards, he travels through the rest of India and in Gwalior, which he, you know, he admires as a place, he thinks it's a beautiful place. But the one thing that he finds is insulting in amongst these wonderful buildings hewn of stone, which he talks about, are the huge Jain figures which have been carved into the rock face of a fort. You know, they're over a century old. And he writes about these, he says these idols are shown quite naked without covering for their privates. I for my part, ordered them to be destroyed. So I'm not saying that, you know, he wasn't not religious at the beginning, but it does seem to be that he's on a bit of a journey and he's becoming more and more religious. And I wonder if that might be because of what happens when he does face off against Rana Sangha and his considerable army where actually, you know, the result is not clear. It isn't clear. It's not going to be a cakewalk for him. It's not clear. Join us after the break when we find out what happens when Rana Sanga and Babur actually fight.
- [17:31]
Anita Arnand
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- [18:24]
William Dalrymple
Ooh.
- [18:26]
Anita Arnand
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- [18:30]
William Dalrymple
Ryan Reynolds here for I guess my hundredth mint commercial. No, no, no, no, no, no, don't.
- [18:35]
Anita Arnand
No, no, no.
- [18:36]
William Dalrymple
I mean, honestly, when I started this.
- [18:37]
Anita Arnand
I thought I only have to do like four of these.
- [18:39]
William Dalrymple
I mean, it's unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month. How are there still people paying two.
- [18:44]
Anita Arnand
Or three times that much?
- [18:46]
William Dalrymple
I'm sorry, I shouldn't be victim blaming.
- [18:47]
Anita Arnand
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- [18:52]
William Dalrymple
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- [19:06]
Anita Arnand
Welcome back. Well, we are on the eve now of the crucial battle of Kanua and Babu faces a variety of enemies in India. He has very good reason to be afraid of the Afghans who are in Bengal running their own kingdom in Bengal. And they are extremely hostile to Babur and his moguls. And they will prove to be a major enemy against his son Humayun. So we're going to hear more about them in the next episode. But Babur decides that the greatest threat is the Rajputs of Rajasthan under Rana Sangha. And Rana Sangha has managed to do what very few Rajput leaders succeed in doing throughout history, which is to unite all the different, often very competitive Rajput clans under his leadership. And he gathers troops from across his desert kingdoms. All the clans of Rajasthan unite under his banner. And he marches towards Agra, where Babur has been waiting. And there is an initial skirmish at a very interesting place called Bayana, which is near the later town of Fatehpur Sikri. And Bayana is not a place many people go to today, but it is one of the most amazing sultanate centers in India. You go there and there's no crowds, no tourists. You've just left Fatehpur Sikri, which is one of the most popular places with bus tours and everything. Bayana is only about half an hour's drive away from there, and it is packed with extraordinary ruins from this period. And in the initial clash there, Rana Sangha defeats the Mughals. There is a complete defeat of the Mughals, and they withdraw back to Agra.
- [20:58]
William Dalrymple
It is part of the brand for Rana Sangha because it is said of him that he has fought 100 battles and lost only one. So, you know, this must sort of be filling Barbara's forces with a little bit of trepidation. But then he does up the ante. You know, he reminds his troops, you really are fighting a jihad. Put more lead in your pencil. We're going to face them again and we will defeat them because God is on our side. That becomes very much the rhetoric of this battle with Rana Sangha.
- [21:26]
Anita Arnand
And as we said, this is not his normal language. He loves his pleasures, but he breaks his cups, he pours the alcohol on the ground, and he tries to pose really as a sort of man of the faith. And he says, and this is, I think, a crucial quote in his diary to show what his motives are. Having talked about abjuring alcohol, breaking his cups, pouring the liquor on the ground, and made a pledge of total abstinence henceforth. He writes, it was a really good plan, and it had a favorable propagandist effect on friend and foe. So he's doing it for effect.
- [21:56]
William Dalrymple
He knows what he's doing.
- [21:57]
Anita Arnand
He knows what he's doing. It's not because he's suddenly come over all religious. He just realized this will unite the people around him.
- [22:03]
William Dalrymple
Okay, that's interesting. So you think it's for show. Although he does take against the Jains. I mean, the Jain statues, he finds them naked and idolatrous. So I wonder if there's this sort of religion creeping in.
- [22:14]
Anita Arnand
No, I don't think so. And I don't Think there's any sign of that? I've read that Babu Nama backwards. My theory is, to his Timurid trained eye, those Jain statues are just ugly.
- [22:25]
William Dalrymple
Okay.
- [22:25]
Anita Arnand
And he thinks it's bad taste according to his lights. I mean they're extraordinary. You can visit them today. They've just been instantly they've been restored in the last couple of years. So all the bits that Babur destroyed have been put back up again.
- [22:37]
William Dalrymple
Oh, interesting.
- [22:37]
Anita Arnand
My son Sam went to visit them a month ago. He was writing an article on Gwalior and all these idols with the celebratedly defaced by Babur. It's something that's in every history book. They're now they've got all their faces back on again.
- [22:50]
William Dalrymple
Oh, that's very, very interesting. So they face off against each other, Rana Sangha's troops and Babur's troops at this place called Carnwa, which is 37 miles west of Agra. And it is a brutal battle and it is one that could go either way.
- [23:03]
Anita Arnand
We have first to say, as well as all this sort of propaganda stuff and breaking his alcohol, he realizes how effective his tact at the battle of Paddy Patta Bean. And in that case it's just a last minute decision to gather these farm carts and to strap them together with leather. So he produces hundreds of carts. This time he fastens them not with leather straps but iron chains. And the gaps between the carts were used for horsemen to charge through. At the right moments. He's perfecting the same tactics that he used at Panipot. But what in particular he's done is improve the artillery. Ustad Ali, who's nearly threw himself into the furnace, producing now not just cannon but muskets, things called Faulkner, which kind of medium sized guns and mortars. And then they've got all the cavalry. This is the big strength of Central Asia throughout history is the use of horses and often being able to ride in one direction and fire in the other. So all these different things are coming together and I think again it is this new tactic of firepower and artillery that allows him to defeat Rajput army which is double his size.
- [24:12]
William Dalrymple
Yeah. But ironically, Rana Sanga is not shot by one of these new fangled guns. What does for him is an arrow. Can you believe it? He's struck by an arrow mid battle. He's removed from the battlefield by his family.
- [24:25]
Anita Arnand
Like Harold at Hastings.
- [24:26]
William Dalrymple
Yes. Harold Godwinson at. Yes. 1066. It sounds a little bit like that. So you know, he's taken away and following the victory because it is a victory. Eventually, you know, this firepower is just going to be overwhelming for the Rajputs, and they're going to mow them down, even though their leader is killed by an arrow. But Baba orders a tower of enemy skulls to be put up. This is something that Timur used to do when he won a battle, a pyramid of skulls. And so he does the same. You know, again, it's a shock and awe territory. But where does this now leave him? I mean, he must be happy. He must be a bit cheerier than he was in that first TripAdvisor account.
- [24:59]
Anita Arnand
He's not at all happy. No, no. He's still very much in his sort of negative TripAdvisor misery mode. Okay. Even more than before, he hates the heat. And the only thing he hates more than the heat is the rains. During the monsoon. He writes, bows cannot be used to shoot armor. Books, beddings and textiles are also affected. But the thing he hates most of all is not being able to drink.
- [25:23]
William Dalrymple
Because, well, he did go and make that promise.
- [25:26]
Anita Arnand
He made that promise, and he's made it so publicly, he can't. He can't break it. So he writes these lovely letters to his old friend in Kabul. And his mate is called Kwaja Kalan. It's his old drinking partner. And he writes to him from India in the monsoon with the rain falling and sort of overflowing into his tent and him feeling damp and he can't draw his bow. He says, with whom do you hold parties? With whom do you drink wine? How can one forget the pleasures of Kabul, especially when abstaining from drinking? How can one allow oneself to forget the licit pleasures like grapes and melons? Recently, a melon was brought. As I cut it, I ate it. And I was oddly affected. I wept the whole time I was weak. He is the whole time that I was eating it. And then he writes a little poem. I'm grief stricken at abstaining from wine. I know that feeling. I've never go to diet. I feel like that darkening my heart. I am always in a confused state. I know that feeling so well. Everybody regrets drinking and then takes an oath. But I have taken an oath, and I regret it. Frozen in grief, I am lost, while with wine I am cheerful and smiling.
- [26:35]
William Dalrymple
Good God, Barbara.
- [26:36]
Anita Arnand
In exile, this month of abstinence ages me. Separated from friends, exile has affected me. I deeply desired the riches from this Indian land. But what is the profit since this land oppresses me?
- [26:51]
William Dalrymple
Oh, my lord. Get over yourself, Barbara. Look, he has. I think he's probably. His mood is even worse because he's had. He's. He has to throw a party to celebrate his win over the Rajputs. So just imagine this. You know, if you're having to throw a dry party because you've made a promise. But it's a huge feast. I'll just sort of give you an idea of it. A massive pavilion is erected. Plates heaving with food gifts. Not the silly, insulting ones, but, you know, no beggars bowl here, but really lavish gifts to people. And what this does, again, you know, you put on shows of animals and animals fighting and dancing girls and acrobats and wrestling and all of that kind of color. You are actually buying fealty from those who are perhaps potentially could go either way on either side. And so, again, I didn't realize until we started getting to this, how good he is at propaganda, that, you know, by doing these things, you are winning a propaganda. Even if he's miserable, a sin, and he's not able to drink, he's still throwing these enormous parties saying, if you're part of Team Barber, there's a lot more of this to come.
- [27:53]
Anita Arnand
But I know from my own experience, don't you, that there's nothing more miserable than being at a good party when everyone else is drunk and you're sober. It's absolutely.
- [28:01]
William Dalrymple
When have you ever done that?
- [28:03]
Anita Arnand
Very, very occasionally I go on diets in Lent or in January and give up alcohol. It's absolute misery. I hate it.
- [28:11]
William Dalrymple
Yeah. I mean, thank God I've not been around you in those times. Your poor wife just.
- [28:16]
Anita Arnand
I'm not awful.
- [28:17]
William Dalrymple
Oh, it sounds hideous. Please, can you give me a good heads up when that might be about to happen? Because I'll be nowhere near you. Okay, so he's won.
- [28:25]
Anita Arnand
What.
- [28:26]
William Dalrymple
What does Barber government look like? I mean, what does he do once he's won this battle? Because now he's got to consolidate, he's got to rule. So what will that be?
- [28:34]
Anita Arnand
So it's very interesting, and this is a very important point, is that he conciliates and he, like his grandson Akbar, will do later on a much grander scale. He offers to bring the Rajputs into government. And there's no sense that he's dancing on their grave and destroying their territories. Instead, he realizes he's a tiny minority. He's won this victory, but it could have easily gone the other way. And he makes alliances with the Rajput. And this is, I think, the single thing that's most forgotten or most misunderstood. About Mughal rule in India right up until the time that Aurangzeb messes up this system. It is the alliance between the different Rajput clans and the Mughals that gives this kingdom its power. And it is always the Rajputs, although they hate to be reminded of this today, that form the shock troops of the Mughal empire. And so when you go to kingdoms today like Bikini and go into their libraries, they often contain the greatest treasures from the south of India and the Deccan because they were part of the armies which conquered these kingdoms in the generations to come, and they shared the loot. So the greatest miniatures from the kingdom of Ahmednagar in the Deccan are today, for example, in Bikina. And the same is true of the Jeypore Library and museums. They contain treasures from further south because these guys collaborated with the Mughals and got their pound of flesh for doing so. And Babo sets that up. He conciliates, he brings in the Rajputs. And while his rule is focused on Persian example and Persian literary culture, and while he does place Turks and Mongols in the highest positions, which his grandson Akbar does not do, the Rajputs get much more senior positions. In this later period, Babur does, for the first time, bring in Rajput rulers into medium level positions.
- [30:33]
William Dalrymple
It is brilliant because it means that, you know, you're not fighting on every front. He also buys himself some time to actually enjoy the things that he really wants to. So, you know, as we've said numerous times in this podcast, he always misses Kabul. You know, Kabul was a place where, you know, he'd left his heart. So he's trying to recreate it. But he is also, at the same time working on his memoirs, which I think is really rather. And we know what that was like and how seriously he's taking it, because his little daughter Gulbadan, who is also going to be a very good chronicler of the times, she's only about 6 years old, but she describes in her writing, watching him busy with his papers, you know, he's scratching away, he's writing, he builds himself, you know, a lovely garden in Sikri, and he's working away. And she says that there's this one day where a storm blows up unexpectedly and the tent in which he's writing just basically falls to pieces. She writes sections and book were drenched underwater and gathered together with much difficulty. We laid them in the folds of a woolen throne carpet, put this on the throne and pared it with blankets. Because for him, you know, these recollections, he's now sort of. He's building an empire. Sure. But he wants to leave his mark. And I think it's really interesting because it's not always the case with rulers of the past that he wants to leave a legacy. So that's why, you know, now he's feeling a bit more secure on this new land. He is writing and writing and writing. That wonderful Barbara Nama that you edited goes into overdrive, if you like. And it's really important to remember that he's still a fairly young man. I mean, he's just in his mid-40s, but he's not the most healthy man even now, William, because Barbara is often ill, it has to be said. I mean, he writes about it in his Barbara, Norma, but his daughter then will take up the mantle and write about how he is often ill. I mean, partly an explanation is that he was such a very heavy drinker until he made that terrible vow. Oh, by the way, if you ever miss. I'm not suggesting this for Lent, but he might have given up alcohol, but he does take this drug and I don't know if he carries on doing that. Called Majun.
- [32:35]
Anita Arnand
Yes. Which is a form of opium, I think. Yeah, yeah.
- [32:37]
William Dalrymple
It's an opiate. And he writes about it. I mean, basically, it's the equivalent of the 1500s. Gummy, edible. And he writes in his memoir, while under its influence, wonderful fields of flowers are enjoyed. So, you know, he's. It's not all doom and gloom, but he's not healthy, he's not well. And in India, with its cursed climate, as he'd put it, he has boils, attacks of boils. He gets sciatica, he gets ear infections. At one point, he's coughing up blood.
- [33:04]
Anita Arnand
No one has ever enjoyed conquering a kingdom less than Babu. No one has ever been less pleased with his kingdom once he's conquered it.
- [33:10]
William Dalrymple
Yeah. And probably his liver is packing up at the same time. So he gets very, very ill by 1529. So, you know, you've got this man who's conquered a country, as it were, when he's sort of taken over both Agra and Delhi. But he's not having a very good time at all, and his family and his retainers are worried about him. What happens in 1529 is that he's seriously ill. So what happens with Humayu? We haven't talked very much about his relationship with his oldest son, Hamayu. Tell me about it. I mean, are they fond of each other? Do they like each other?
- [33:42]
Anita Arnand
It's a classic relationship of the very successful man and the slightly sort of hippie, dippy second generation. Humayun actually is a rather amazing war leader, which is not how he's remembered, but he's always late for everything. The entire invasion of India is delayed I think three months because Humayun's disappeared off doing some sort of astronomical observatories or something, doing some looking at the stars. And Bub was absolutely hopping mad when he turns up, which is why he has to invade in the heat and why he gets so miserable in the heat after he's conquered it. And Barbault is the slightly over pairing father with a slightly disappointing son. And he's a familiar character. And for example, he's always ticking off Barbo's letters. He says, although your writing can be read with difficulty, it is obsessively obscure. Who has ever heard of prose designed to be an enigma? Probably your laziness with writing letters is due to the fact that you tried to make it too fancy. From now on, write with uncomplicated clear and plain words. This will cause less difficulty both for you and your reader.
- [34:47]
William Dalrymple
Oh my word. So he's a literary critic as well as he's a literary critic.
- [34:50]
Anita Arnand
He must have been a pain in the ass to be his father of.
- [34:52]
William Dalrymple
Also he wants to make a man of his son who he thinks is a bit airy fairy and you know, can't write. So, you know, part of this, you know, he's got this airy fairy son who's sort of wearing tie dye and flowers in his hair sometimes literally.
- [35:04]
Anita Arnand
He was famous for his colorful clothes. You're right.
- [35:06]
William Dalrymple
Is that right? Okay, brilliant. So he says, right, you know what? You are going to go off and do something grown up. I can't install you in a branch of my bank, but you can go to Sambal and you can just look after it there and start learning something about governance and in your spare time learn to write a bit better.
- [35:22]
Anita Arnand
And Sumbul actually is not a good place to send anyone in that it's right up until the modern period, famous for its brigands. It's where Fulan Devi hung out in the ridges of Sumbul.
- [35:33]
William Dalrymple
Yes.
- [35:34]
Anita Arnand
And it's a place which, because of its geography and these famous sort of deep valleys and this remote territory, bandit.
- [35:41]
William Dalrymple
Country, total bandit country.
- [35:44]
Anita Arnand
So he doesn't give his son an easy task there. It's exactly where an enemy army can hide out and raid his communications and all the rest of it. But then Humayun gets ill and this father who's been overbearing and bossy and corrected his spelling and all the rest of it is terrified at the way that Humayun has sunk. And even Humayun's mother is worried by how far Babur is looking, completely broken by Humayun's illness. And she says, do not be troubled about my son. You are a king. What griefs have you? You have other sons. I sorrow because I have only this one. And Babur replies, maham, I have other sons, but I love none as I love your Humayun.
- [36:27]
William Dalrymple
Oh, my God. But he never tells Humayun.
- [36:28]
Anita Arnand
He never tells his. He never tells his fatality. He loves him.
- [36:31]
William Dalrymple
Familiar story. This familiar story. And what's also interesting is, you know, Barbara knows about sickness because he's been spent so much of this time feeding ill with his boils and his sciatica and his discharging ears. And, you know, his health has declined so much that he is, you know, just before her Mayan falls, though he's been coughing up blood as well. And he's not a well man. But he makes this. It's almost a deal with God, isn't it? He's pacing around her Maia's bed.
- [36:55]
Anita Arnand
He seeks the advice of a Sufi saint. And the Sufi saint tells him that in order to save Humayun, who really is now looking as if he's on his deathbed, that he should give up the most valuable thing that he possesses. And Babu says, I am the most valuable thing that Humayun possesses. I myself will be his sacrifice. He is an extremity, and I have lost the power to behold his powerlessness, but I can endure all his pain. O God, if a life can be exchanged for a life, I, Babu, hereby offer my life for Humayun's. Babu then said his prayers and three times circled his son's bed when his prayer had been heard by God, writes Abul Faisal, who's the next generation of Courtya. Recording this a generation later, Babur felt a strange effect upon himself, as if a fever had surged over him. Convinced that his prayer and offering had prevailed, he cried out, I have borne it away. I have borne it away. From that moment, Babur became ill while Humayun steadily recovered. And Babu died two months later on December 21, 1530, at the age of only 46. And he left instructions that he wished to be buried on a high terrace in his favorite garden in Kabul, where he'd love to sit and admire the view. And ironically, for a man who prided himself on his valor in the field, his greatest moment of heroin was not displayed at the battlefield, but at home.
- [38:24]
William Dalrymple
That's really touching. Are you crying again?
- [38:26]
Anita Arnand
It's funny, because he's remembered now in India as this brutal jihadi, which he really wasn't. And he's not really remembered in Uzbekistan. In Uzbekistan, they call him Bobo is the Uzbek pronunciation of. And there's a little avenue in a park named after him in the diplomatic corner of Tashkent. And there's a lovely little memorial garden that I visited a couple of years ago in Andejan, the capital of Ferghana. But the place that really has been beautifully restored of late is his grave in Kabul. And he's first of all buried initially in Arambag, his garden of rest in Agra. And then the following year, his coffin is taken up, up to Kabul. And it remained the great garden of Kabul. And it was very nearly destroyed in the cataclysmic fight between the Taliban and the mujahideen. And there are pictures of it just 20 years ago, looking as if it's all fallen to bits. But there's been an incredible restoration project done by the Aga Khan Foundation. And when you go to Kabul today, Baba's grave is beautifully restored. The whole garden has been reconstructed as it was at his time. And there's a very nice little sort of crafty shoppy place with selling carpets and blue haratti glass and nice meals at the bottom. And it's where the people of Kabul still go to picnic.
- [39:50]
William Dalrymple
I'm looking at pictures of it now. Yeah.
- [39:52]
Anita Arnand
So I think Babur would approve, although.
- [39:54]
William Dalrymple
It'S quite a modest structure considering, you know, this is a man who founded a dynasty that would be so, you know, very important in India. We're gonna leave Barbara's story here, but don't take your eyes off his son, the son who, you know, he made the deal with God with that, you know, save Hamayu and take me instead. Because in the next episodes, we're going to be talking about Hamayo, the man who steps into those very big shoes. Join us then. Till then, it's goodbye from me, Anita.
- [40:21]
Anita Arnand
Arnand, and goodbye from me, William Dalrymple.