Empire Podcast Episode 212: Who Were The Three Wise Men? (Ep 1)

Release Date: December 17, 2024
Hosts: William Durimple & Anita Anand
Guest: Lloyd Llewellyn Jones
Title: Who Were The Three Wise Men?

Introduction

In the festive episode of Empire, hosts William Durimple and Anita Anand are joined by Lloyd Llewellyn Jones, a professor of ancient history and newly ordained reverend. The trio embarks on an exploration of the Three Wise Men (Magi) from the Nativity story, delving into their historical, cultural, and theological significance.

The Magi: Beyond the Traditional Narrative

The episode begins with a humorous reenactment of the Nativity scene, highlighting the discrepancies between traditional biblical accounts and popular portrayals influenced by works like Monty Python's Life of Brian. This serves as a springboard for a deeper academic discussion led by Lloyd Llewellyn Jones.

Understanding the Term "Magi"

Timestamp: 13:00 - 13:06

Anita Anand: “The Greek in the original gospel says magoy, which is magus in English. And a magus is something quite specific. It's not wise men, it's not a king. What is it?”

Lloyd Llewellyn Jones: “If we really want to go deeper into the meaning and extract from it, it's Persian in nature. We would have to translate that as cast of priests, really. We're dealing here with a priestly hierarchy of the Zoroastrian faith.”

Lloyd clarifies that "Magi" refers specifically to Zoroastrian priests, emphasizing their role as keepers of sacred knowledge and traditions within Persian society.

Persian Influence on Jewish Tradition

Timestamp: 15:28 - 17:25

William Durimple: “There's a fascinating and not often talked about overlap with the Persian empire. This is of supreme interest to us.”

Lloyd Llewellyn Jones: “After Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar, many Jews settled in the Persian Empire, leading to a significant cultural and theological exchange. This assimilation brought Zoroastrian ideas into Jewish tradition, profoundly influencing concepts like the Messiah and the nature of God.”

The discussion highlights how the Babylonian Exile and subsequent Persian rule facilitated a blending of Jewish and Persian cultures, leading to the incorporation of Zoroastrian theological concepts into Judaism.

Matthew's Gospel and the Magi

Timestamp: 11:49 - 30:34

Lloyd Llewellyn Jones: “Matthew's use of 'Magi' is a direct nod to Persian priestly traditions. By portraying the Magi as visitors from the East led by a star, Matthew connects the Nativity story to Persian astronomical practices and simultaneously critiques Roman imperial claims to divinity.”

William Durimple: “Matthew is saying, Roman Empire, liars; Persian Empire, trustworthy. That's fascinating.”

The hosts and Lloyd explore how the Gospel of Matthew integrates Persian elements to establish the legitimacy of Jesus' divine status over Roman assertions. The star guiding the Magi symbolizes divine truth as opposed to Roman propaganda.

Symbolism of the Gifts: Gold, Frankincense, and Myrrh

Timestamp: 34:04 - 37:14

Lloyd Llewellyn Jones: “Gold represents kingship, frankincense (incense) signifies divinity, and myrrh foretells Jesus' death as it was used in embalming.”

Anita Anand: “Is this a reference to Jesus supposedly being of David's line? And David was a king.”

The trio dissects the symbolic meanings behind the gifts, linking them to Jesus' identity as king, his divine nature, and his impending sacrifice. Lloyd emphasizes that these gifts are deeply symbolic rather than mere presents.

Herod, the Roman Empire, and Parthian Relations

Timestamp: 25:06 - 30:34

Lloyd Llewellyn Jones: “Herod the Great was a Roman-backed dictator, often despised by the Jewish people for his allegiance to Rome. Matthew uses Herod to symbolize Roman tyranny, contrasting it with the honorable Magi from the Parthian Empire, which was Rome's main rival.”

Anita Anand: “The Battle of Carrhae is a really good example. Romans claim victory, but it was a Parthian victory.”

Matthew's narrative strategically positions the Parthians as bearers of true divine knowledge, undermining Roman imperial claims and aligning the Nativity story with anti-Roman sentiments prevalent among early Christians.

The Book of Esther: A Testament to Jewish-Persian Synergy

Timestamp: 19:59 - 23:59

William Durimple: “The Book of Esther almost reads like a tale from Arabian Nights, showcasing the fusion of Jewish and Persian cultures.”

Lloyd Llewellyn Jones: “Set in Susa, the capital of the Achaemenid Empire, Esther highlights the assimilation and prosperity of Jews within the Persian Empire, illustrating a deep cultural and religious synergy that lasted for centuries.”

The discussion underscores the Book of Esther as an exemplar of Jewish adaptation and integration within Persian society, reflecting broader themes of cultural blending that influenced New Testament writings.

Artistic Representations and Legacy

Timestamp: 40:13 - 41:43

Lloyd Llewellyn Jones: “Early Christian art, such as mosaics in the Catacomb of Priscilla and Ravenna, depict the Magi in distinctly Persian attire, reinforcing their identity and the cultural depth of the Nativity story.”

Anita Anand: “When the Persians attacked Jerusalem in 614, they spared the Church of the Nativity because of these depictions, preserving the legacy of the Magi.”

Artistic portrayals not only visualize the Magi's Persian origins but also played a role in historical events, such as protecting sacred Christian sites through symbolic representation.

Conclusion and Teaser for Next Episode

As the episode wraps up, the hosts tease the next installment, which will delve into the identities of the traditional names given to the Three Wise Men—Melchior, Caspar, and Balthazar—and explore their backstories and historical representations.

Anita Anand: “If Matthew doesn't give them names, who does? That's what we're going to talk about next.”

The episode concludes with an invitation to join the Empire Club for additional content and upcoming discussions.

Notable Quotes

• Lloyd Llewellyn Jones (13:06):
  “We're dealing here with a priestly hierarchy of the Zoroastrian faith. The Magi were trained in holiness and maintained a profound knowledge of their sacred traditions.”

• William Durimple (25:28):
  “Herod was hated by his people, by the Jews themselves, because he kowtowed to Rome so constantly. He was truly one of the villains of history.”

• Lloyd Llewellyn Jones (37:07):
  “These gifts are symbolic. Gold for kingship, frankincense for divinity, and myrrh to remind us of Christ's death.”

Key Takeaways

1. Magi as Zoroastrian Priests: The term "Magi" specifically refers to Persian Zoroastrian priests, not merely wise men or kings, highlighting their religious and cultural significance.

2. Persian-Jewish Cultural Exchange: The Babylonian Exile and Persian rule led to a profound blending of Jewish and Persian traditions, influencing theological developments in Judaism and early Christianity.

3. Matthew's Gospel as a Political Statement: By incorporating Persian elements and critiquing Roman imperialism, Matthew's Gospel asserts the legitimacy and divinity of Jesus in opposition to Roman propaganda.

4. Symbolism of Gifts: The gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh hold deep symbolic meanings connecting Jesus to kingship, divinity, and his future sacrifice.

5. Artistic Legacy: Early Christian art played a role in defining and preserving the identity of the Magi, influencing both religious narrative and historical events.

This episode of Empire provides a nuanced understanding of the Three Wise Men, situating them within the broader context of Persian influence on Jewish tradition and early Christian theology. By blending scholarly insight with engaging dialogue, the hosts offer listeners a rich exploration of one of history's most enduring biblical stories.