231. Colonising Ireland: Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, & The Tudor Conquest (Ep 1)

Summary

Empire Podcast Summary: Episode 231 - Colonising Ireland: Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, & The Tudor Conquest

Podcast Information

• Title: Empire
• Host/Author: Goalhanger
• Description: How do empires rise? Why do they fall? And how have they shaped the world around us today? William Dalrymple and Anita Anand explore the stories, personalities, and events of empire over the course of history.
• Episode: 231. Colonising Ireland: Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, & The Tudor Conquest (Ep 1)
• Release Date: February 20, 2025

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Introduction

In the premiere episode of the series "Colonising Ireland: Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, & The Tudor Conquest," hosts William Dalrymple and Anita Anand delve into the intricate history of English colonization in Ireland. Joined by esteemed guest Professor Jane Almayer, author of Making Ireland, Imperialism and the Early Modern World, the discussion explores the origins, strategies, and ramifications of the Tudor conquest of Ireland.

Historical Context: Norman Invasion and Early English Settlement

The conversation begins with an exploration of the initial English incursions into Ireland, tracing back to the Norman invasion of 1169. Jane Almayer explains that this invasion was initiated at the invitation of an Irish chieftain, leading to the settlement of English Norman settlers primarily in County Wexford and urban areas like Dublin and the Pale.

Jane Almayer [09:06]: "In 1169, you have the Norman invasion in County Wexford, invited by an Irish chieftain, leading to English Norman settlers establishing themselves in southeast Ireland and urban centers like Dublin."

Gaelicization and Statutes of Kilkenny

A significant theme discussed is the Gaelicization of English settlers, where initial Norman invaders like Strongbow married into Gaelic Irish families, leading them to adopt Irish language and customs. This blending caused friction with the English crown, which viewed such assimilation as a form of degeneration.

Jane Almayer [10:07]: "The Norman settlers quickly become Gaelicized, speaking the Irish language and behaving like Gaelic chieftains, which the English viewed as them having 'gone native.'"

This assimilation prompted the English to implement the Statutes of Kilkenny (1366), a series of laws aimed at preventing intermarriage, enforcing English dress, and suppressing the Irish language and legal traditions.

Jane Almayer [11:14]: "The Statutes of Kilkenny forbade marrying Irish people, wearing Irish dress, speaking the Irish language, and using traditional Irish laws."

Tudor Policies: Surrender and Regrant

Transitioning to the Tudor era, the hosts discuss the Surrender and Regrant policy initiated under Henry VIII. This strategy involved Gaelic lords surrendering their traditional titles and lands to the English crown in exchange for English titles and the promise of greater political autonomy within the framework of English rule.

Jane Almayer [18:14]: "The Surrender and Regrant policy was a significant shift, where Gaelic lords relinquished their titles to receive English peerages, aligning themselves with the crown to gain political leverage and support the anglicization of Ireland."

William Dalrymple adds that this policy was intertwined with the Protestant Reformation, further complicating Ireland's allegiance as the predominantly Catholic Irish resisted the Protestant English monarchy.

William Dalrymple [19:13]: "The Tudor policies weren't just about control; they were deeply connected to the religious upheavals of the time, with Ireland standing as a predominantly Catholic stronghold against the Protestant English crown."

Hugh O'Neill and the Nine Years War

A focal point of the episode is the figure of Hugh O'Neill, the Earl of Tyrone, whose leadership during the Nine Years War (1594–1603) epitomizes the resistance against Tudor rule. Raised in the household of an English colonial family, O'Neill was both Gaelic and anglicized, making him a complex and formidable leader.

Jane Almayer [30:02]: "Hugh O'Neill was a Gaelic chieftain raised in an English household, fluent in English language and customs, which made him uniquely positioned to lead a resistance that was both culturally rooted and strategically sophisticated."

O'Neill allied with external forces, notably the Spanish Armada, seeking support to overthrow English dominance. However, the ill-fated Battle of Kinsale in 1601 marked a decisive defeat for O'Neill, leading to the eventual suppression of Gaelic resistance and the consolidation of Tudor control over Ireland.

Jane Almayer [37:28]: "The Battle of Kinsale was a turning point where O'Neill's alliance with the Spaniards faltered, resulting in a crushing defeat that effectively ended the Nine Years War and solidified English supremacy in Ireland."

Consequences and Conclusions

The episode concludes by reflecting on the broader implications of the Tudor conquest of Ireland. This period not only reshaped Ireland's socio-political landscape but also served as a foundational model for English imperial strategies in other parts of the world.

Jane Almayer [06:13]: "Ireland became the laboratory where England perfected its colonial strategies, influencing imperial policies in places like India and America."

The hosts emphasize that the Tudor conquest laid the groundwork for centuries of English rule in Ireland, fostering a legacy of conflict, cultural suppression, and eventual calls for Irish independence.

Notable Quotes

• Jane Almayer [10:07]: "The Norman settlers quickly become Gaelicized, speaking the Irish language and behaving like Gaelic chieftains, which the English viewed as them having 'gone native.'"

• Jane Almayer [18:14]: "The Surrender and Regrant policy was a significant shift, where Gaelic lords relinquished their titles to receive English peerages, aligning themselves with the crown to gain political leverage and support the anglicization of Ireland."

• William Dalrymple [19:13]: "The Tudor policies weren't just about control; they were deeply connected to the religious upheavals of the time, with Ireland standing as a predominantly Catholic stronghold against the Protestant English crown."

• Jane Almayer [30:02]: "Hugh O'Neill was a Gaelic chieftain raised in an English household, fluent in English language and customs, which made him uniquely positioned to lead a resistance that was both culturally rooted and strategically sophisticated."

• Jane Almayer [06:13]: "Ireland became the laboratory where England perfected its colonial strategies, influencing imperial policies in places like India and America."

Final Thoughts

Episode 231 of Empire offers a comprehensive and engaging examination of the Tudor conquest of Ireland, highlighting the interplay of culture, politics, and religion in the establishment of English dominance. Through the insights of Jane Almayer, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of how Ireland's colonization served as a microcosm for broader imperial ambitions, shaping the trajectory of British and Irish histories alike.

Transcript

[William Dalrymple]

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[William Dalrymple]

Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Anand and me, William Durample. Got a very serious voice on. We're in the same room, so I can. Look, I'm serious.

[Anita Anand]

Incredibly hungry.

[William Dalrymple]

Look, here we are.

You're looking almost dawnish with your intensity.

Got a positively splitting headache.

Really? Why is that then, William? Let's all feel sorry for that.

There was a little bit of a party at the Jaguar Witch Festival last night, it is true. And I was so busy getting my wife to drink a pint of water and we got home that I didn't.

Remember to drink a bite of water myself, poor baby. Anyway, look, the thing that we've been really excited about is talking about Ireland. For ages, William and I have been speaking about this and we both come to this with a real serious draw because, well, you start off, why do you care about.

Well, I tell you, I've always been aware that I don't know as much about Irish history as I should do. I was very much brought up by my half Irish, half Scottish nanny on Tales of the Potato Famine and was taken down, I remember, to the public library in North Berwick at the age about 6 and 7 and showing these woodcuts of Irish mothers turning to cannibalism and this sort of stuff. It was in the. The Great Hunger, the 1847. 1847.

You're not allowed to talk yet. You've been introduced. We've got a great guest.

We have a guest here.

She's irrepressible. You just heard her voice. We're going to introduce her any second now. Yeah. So that was your interest?

It was something which was so present. I mean, my childhood, like everyone else of my age, I'm now about to turn 60, was, you know, pub bombings and the whole.

The IRA and travel.

We never really understood what it was all about, where it all started, who the Iraq, why they were so angry with people in Britain that they'd let off bombs and bobs. And I've always been aware that while I've studied history in half the rest of the globe, I've never really educated myself properly, sufficiently on Irish history. And it's been a great learning curve to read the books of.

Now, guess who we haven't introduced to.

Who we haven't introduced.

She's sitting here. She's actually one of the nicest people we've had on the pod. And she's being so very patient.

I did.

I love her. I love her. She's all mine. The reason I come to Ireland, and I've been obsessed with it, is because Ireland came up time and time again in research when it came to Indian nationalism, and it was a really troubled and troubling relationship. So, on the one hand, when I wrote about things like the massacre in Amritsar, the men who were responsible for that were two Irishmen, one, Sir Michael O'Dwyer, a Catholic from Tipperary, and the other, Rex Reginald Dyer, who went to Middleton College in Cork. And I mean, had a wretched time there, didn't like it, but, you know, had that sort of Irish identity as well. And I didn't understand how that happened. But also you had members of Irish nationalism holding up Indian nationalists who had either launched bombs or put trains off tracks or given up their lives or been hanged. In the case of them sing as their heroes, too. And the first official visit that happens to a free India is de Valera, who comes over representing Ireland to India. So there's all of these gnarly things. And so we turned to the absolute best person who's all mine, all mine. Professor Jane Almayer is here, author of Making Ireland, Imperialism and the Early Modern World. Who is going to unravel all of this? I mean, I have to tell you, William did say, I'm going to introduce you to Jane Almayer. You're going to fall head over heels in love. It's happened. You're absolutely. It did happen. It completely happened.

Jane and I have already now been on a sort of lecture tour together. We've been an extraordinary initiative. Jane was brought over by the Irish Embassy and it happens that the British High Commissioner in India is from Belfast and they've made firm friends, the Irish ambassador and the British High Commissioner. And Jane and I were sent off to sort of talk empire and all things that connect empire in India and empire in Ireland. And we did it in Bombay, and we've done it in Delhi in front of an extraordinary diplomatic audience. And it was at this point that I realized there was absolutely no excuse whatsoever for not bringing Jane on for a whole new series. And I think this is one of the things that people really, really have consistently asked us to do since we started Empire three years ago to focus very much on these major issues of the first English writing.

And so now we can legitimately hear your voice saying, hi, you're allowed to talk.

[Jane Almayer]

You'll be nodding frantically. Well, Anita, William, absolutely thrilled to be here and to be here with you at the Jaipur Literary Festival. William, we had such fun at the Tata Festival in Mumbai and then, of course, in Delhi. So at that AM event, the British High Commissioner and the Irish ambassador. And you know something, it was so interesting at the end of that, the Lithuanian ambassador got up and she said, you know, this is so extraordinary, the colonized and colonizer having a very respectful, difficult conversation, because these issues are difficult. So, I mean, she said that it.

[William Dalrymple]

Couldn'T possibly happen between Lithuania and Russia, for example.

Right?

[Jane Almayer]

Yeah.

[William Dalrymple]

So there's. There's some signs of hope. We've just at this dry Pulitzer festival where we're speaking from. I've just come from watching Gideon Levy on stage talking about Palestine and Israel, and he came up with a very nice Hebrew phrase. He said that in Hebrew, they have a saying that the darkest bit of the night is the moment before dawn.

All right. Well, you live in. Let's hope so. All of these questions, Jane, that are in our heads. And also you throw in something even more interesting into the mix which we're going to be discussing in this series, which is that Ireland is the laboratory where all colonial experiments are perfected. And just in a nutshell, because we're not going to do it in this episode, we're taking you all the way back to Tudor England in this episode. But what do you mean by that? It's a laboratory for all other colonialism?

[Jane Almayer]

Well, Ireland is England's first colony, and they use Ireland literally to try out policies, ideologies. But also men, mostly from England, learn the business of empire by cutting their teeth, first in Ireland and then going into the Atlantic World, and of course, then into India and elsewhere. So Ireland is a place where we're a colony. We were a colony, but we also then made empire. And of course, as you've just alluded to help to unmake empire in the 20th century. So it's at so many levels that Ireland is there.

[William Dalrymple]

It's from the very beginning until the very end, you have the Honourable Society of Ireland founded just what, nine years after the East India Company.

[Jane Almayer]

Yeah. It's 1613, which is formed to do.

[William Dalrymple]

In Derry what the Brits are doing in Bombay and will do later in Madras and Calcutta. And then at the very end you can make an argument, and you do in your book, that it is the partition of Ireland that forms a possible template.

Yes, the template for the partition of India. And I heard you speak about that here in Jaipur. And there was an audible gasp from the audience, like, well, I think because.

[Jane Almayer]

Irish people are white, they don't think of Ireland as a colony. But obviously we'll get into that in the discussion.

[William Dalrymple]

A point you made at that series was also very, very interesting. Why is it that of all the countries in Western Europe, it is the Irish that have stood by the Palestinians? And you said because they're the only place in Western Europe that has been a colony.

[Jane Almayer]

And imperialism is about violence and the exercise, the raw exercise of power. But I also think Ireland and our ambassador Kevin Kelly made this point just at the discuss earlier on today because Ireland has experienced 30 years of intense violence during the Troubles, which of course is a colonial war. This empathy now Ireland has for Palestine. But I also think Ireland should give hope because the two state solution in Ireland has worked since the Good Friday Agreement. Brexit dealt it a body blow, but it definitely hope as well.

[William Dalrymple]

Well, I mean, hopefully this has set your taste buds buzzing for what you are going to feast on in this series. But we are now going to start right at the beginning of this story and I thinking, you know, we'd start with the Tudors. But you want to start even earlier than the Tudors.

Well, it started earlier. We should start at the beginning. When did the English first arrive militarily in Ireland and start killing people?

[Jane Almayer]

Well, 1169, you have the Norman invasion and it's down in County Wexford. And that invasion then is at the invitation of an Irish chieftain. But what happens is increasing numbers of English Norman settlers come and they settle that southeast corner of Ireland, particularly County Wexford. But you also then and find them in urban areas. So Dublin and the Pale and then other urban areas.

[William Dalrymple]

But what's his character Strongbow, tell us about him? Sounds like somebody off a cyber advert.

[Jane Almayer]

One of those Norman invaders who. Who marries Aoife, who is. Yeah, Gaelic Irish princess. But it's symbolic then of the Gaelicization that happens of Ireland, especially as you get into the 13th and 14th century. So those initial if want Norman English settlers very quickly become Gaelicized.

[William Dalrymple]

When you say Gaelicised, what exactly do you mean?

[Jane Almayer]

The Norman settlers come in and many of them marry, as in the case of Strongbow and Aoife. But over time that means that they actually become Irish. They speak the Irish language or Gaelic as well as English, but they behave like Gaelic chieftains. And the English back in England say they've become degenerate.

[William Dalrymple]

Okay, they've gone native.

[Jane Almayer]

They've gone native. Absolutely.

[William Dalrymple]

Very interesting to try and compare the Norman conquest of England with the Norman conquest of Ireland, because what happens with the Norman conquest of England is that the entire Anglo Saxon aristocracy and hierarchy gets shoved aside. I try to remember back to my A level history and it. I seem to remember that there was only one Anglo Saxon lord holding land by the time of the Doomsday Book in whenever it is 20 years after the conquest. And you have this picture therefore of Norman settlers putting up their motte Bailey castles with those lovely sort of steep, steep hills.

I just made one three weeks ago with my nine year old son. Tell you everything you need to know about Palisades.

Exactly. Palisades and all that sort of stuff.

[Jane Almayer]

But can I say William as well? What you see happening are these consistent efforts or periodic efforts by the London administration to, if you want, Anglicise Ireland. So the statutes of to Kilkenny, which are 1366, these are a se series of laws that are passed that says you can't marry Irish people, you can't wear Irish dress, you can't speak the Irish language, you can't use brehon law or customary law. Oh, absolutely. And then it continues on, but it comes in fits and starts until the 1530s. Really.

[William Dalrymple]

You get the same in India later, don't you? Because you get lots of attempts to first of all encourage mixed marriages and then later on strong attempts to forbid it and ban it and not give any perks to anyone that's got a Indian life.

[Jane Almayer]

It's not just forbidding it, it's also saying you must speak English, you must use the English law courts, you must use English law.

[William Dalrymple]

I sort of threw the comment and you know, they were worried that all of their lords had gone native. And normally that really is a. It's a pejorative that is associated with the colour of people's skin. Here you have something where everybody's white. And so, I mean, what is the attitude to those who are Irish from those who are English? What do they say at this time?

[Jane Almayer]

Oh, we've got a fantastic insight into that thanks to the work of somebody called Gera Cambrensis, Gerald of Wales, who publishes a book called Topographia. And it basically, because, of course, Ireland is never conquered by the Romans, and as a result, they're uncivil, they're barbarous. And this narrative of othering, this is in the 12th century. Yeah, he's part of that Norman Conquest, and his narrative is a bestseller. If a Latin manuscript can be a bestseller. And what's so important about it, William, is then later Translated in the 16th century by Holinshed into English. And then it is printed. And the second it goes into print, it's like the Internet today. So that very hostile negative representation of the Irish speakers and the Gaels.

[William Dalrymple]

And what were the stereotypes? What did England say about the people of Ireland?

[Jane Almayer]

They're always uncivil. They're savages, they're barbarous, they're treacherous. Increasingly, they're subhuman, they're hogs, they're caterpillars, they're a lower form of humanity.

[William Dalrymple]

Isn't that interesting? Because those are exactly the kind of terminologies that we hear used in those who are native to Africa and Asia as well. You're talking about sort of the Gaelic chiefs that, you know, come about over time. Did they get on with each other, how much land they control? You know, was it all just one Kumbaya happy family before there was any kind of colonization there?

[Jane Almayer]

Definitely not, Anita. It was a real sort of patchwork of feuding tribal lordships, and you would have had an overlord who would have had a few sort of underlings, sub lords. It was all about control over people. It's not about control of land, it's about control of people and control of cattle, actually, because cattle are the currency in Ireland. So a lot of time is spent, you know, running around cattle raiding, because the more cattle you have, the richer you are and the more people that you can then control. It's very much a fighting and feasting culture. So the fighting is all around the cattle raiding and about all this feuding.

[William Dalrymple]

Sounds like my own Scottish Borders. The reivers going backwards and forwards over the borders, driving the cattle into the dells. Beef Tug Moffat and all this.

[Jane Almayer]

It's exactly that. And alongside that, William, it's a feasting culture. It's about how these great chieftains can exercise control over their followers with food. And I think what's important is to remember that the seas are the superhighways of this period. So if you want Ulster and that west coast of Scotland are part of the same entity, actually, and the sorts of behaviors that we're seeing in Gaelic Ireland, we see that mirrored across the North Channel, especially in the Western seaboard, the Irish language and Scots Gaelic. They even say in Scotland they're speaking Irish.

[William Dalrymple]

What did the Irish chieftains say about the English?

[Jane Almayer]

Well, it's really interesting, Anita, because what we find is the Irish chieftains are surrounded by retinues of bards and poets and they are the ones who record, if you want, the contempt that is felt towards the English and their attempts to Anglicise. So that's where we see evidence of if you want hostility. And actually you have somebody like Geoffrey Keating who's writing, saying, actually the Irish are hugely civilized and they go back to Ireland, the land of saints and scholars, back, of course, to the 6th, 7th century, when it was a Irish.

[William Dalrymple]

Missionaries converting first the Picts, then going across onto the mainland and founding Bobbio and Sangal and these wonderful Celtic monasteries with all these wonderful Irish manuscripts that.

[Jane Almayer]

Are still in the libraries and saying it's really. And they actually refer to some of these negative English commentators, starting with commensis as dung beetles who go around, you know, gathering up the dung and they're not willing then to actually engage with, if you want Irish civilization as it truly is.

[William Dalrymple]

So. So to move forward from the Middle Ages to the Tudor period, basically the English invasion of Ireland is not successful. There's very little land in the hands of the English. The English that are there get Gaelicised. And so by the time that you're entering the time of Henry VIII and the Tudors, English imperialism in Ireland is half cock. There's very little clearly Anglicised territory outside the Pale, which means the area of Dublin.

[Jane Almayer]

Absolutely. And some other urban areas. So what happens, of course, is we have the Protestant Reformation. Henry wants to marry Anne Boleyn and get rid of Catherine of Aragon. And that really changes the face of Irish history, because all of a sudden we have now a very Catholic country that doesn't want to become Protestant. And I think Ireland is the only country in Europe that doesn't adopt the faith of its monarch. And that means Ireland is a strategic geographical threat to England. It's that backdoor into England, because the Spaniards particularly want to vilify and capture England.

[William Dalrymple]

So, I mean, you know, Henry's frustrated with the Pope and that's well documented. You know, he's fed up and he gets fed up with Wolsey because Wolsey can't deliver the Pope unto him and make the Pope do what he wants to do. But he actually does mention Ireland specifically. Ireland is a little thorn in his side, even though there's a lot of other things going on. And he writes, there's this letter to Pope Clement the seventh, saying, you know, Henry's just sick of Ireland, sick and tired of Ireland. And he says he declares himself the King of Ireland rather than the Lord of Ireland. And he decides, look, I'm going to show you. You will kneel, you will bend the knee to me. You're right in my sight. And don't think just because you're over the water, I don't notice that you're not letting me do what I want to do.

[Jane Almayer]

Well, actually, that Kingship act that you're referring to is 1541, Anita is very, very important because all of a sudden, actually with that, Henry is saying, all subjects in Ireland are my subjects. Prior to that, it was really only that Anglo Norman colonial elite. So that is a very significant shift. And what he says to the Gaelic lords, he says, okay, I'm going to make a deal with you. If you renounce your Gaelic title and swear allegiance to me, I will regrant you an English title. But in return for that English title, and he means an earldom or a baronage or some sort of English title, I'm going to give you a patent or a legal title to your land. But you are also going to help me Anglicise Ireland. So by the mid 16th century, something like 40 of the most important Gaelic lords have signed up to these surrender and reground agreements, and that came out of the Kingship Act.

[William Dalrymple]

What was in it for them? What did these lords get by bowing the knee to Henry viii?

[Jane Almayer]

Well, what they get is they're very pragmatic, William, so they're hop that it's all going to give them greater political control and enhance their power bases, their local power bases. So they're using the influence of their king and their relationship with the king to actually make them more powerful on the ground.

[William Dalrymple]

And I mean, is this an immediate contrast with England? I mean, obviously there is a slow conversion of the English to Protestantism and the Reformation rolls on right into the next next two or three reigns. But is it something that you see from the beginning, that the English are basically okay with rejecting Rome and the Irish basically want to stick to their loyalty to the Pope?

[Jane Almayer]

Yeah, you do see that fairly early on. So there's a number of reasons for that. One is that the English Protestant church doesn't have enough resources on the ground, so the infrastructure is weak. The second thing is the Catholicism that linked to Catholicism is very, very deep. And what we see increasingly.

[William Dalrymple]

No, no more or less deep.

[Jane Almayer]

Well, what happens in Ireland is that the. Especially the merchant Old English families, those Anglo Norman settlers become known as the Old English. They send their children to the continent to be educated, and they do so en masse in a way that. That doesn't happen in England to Rome or to. Well, to all of the Irish colleges that start to spring up across Spain, France, the Netherlands, the Spanish Flanders, which would be modern day Netherlands. And that really helps reinvigorate Irish Catholicism with Counter Reformation, post Trent Catholicism.

[William Dalrymple]

And we know that the English very quickly learned to hate the Jesuits and regard the Jesuits as the enemy. And the kind of. Almost like kgb, the Secret Service, Stormtroopers. Stormtroopers who are working for the Pope against the reformed faith. Are a lot of these Irish colleges, Jesuit colleges?

[Jane Almayer]

Many are, but the Franciscans are actually as important as the Jesuits. And what you'll find are many of these Old English families, but also Gaelic Irish families. We'll have family members, younger sons who go over to Louvain particularly, which is.

[William Dalrymple]

I have a Catholic priest brother who studied in Louvain.

[Jane Almayer]

Well, you know where Louvain is, which would have been Spanish Flanders. The first printing press, modern, Modern Belgium. Modern Belgium. But the first printing press in the Irish language is actually in Louvain in 1609. And it's actually printing all of this Counter Reformation literature that's then brought back to Ireland.

[William Dalrymple]

Here in the Jaipur Literature Festival, we have a Spanish chapter in Valladolid where there's another Irish college.

[Jane Almayer]

Absolutely. At salamanca. There's about 20 of them that are very active. And it's so important in terms of how that sustains Catholicism in Ireland. The other thing I would say about Ireland is how important women are. In other words, Catholicism is very much domesticated. And the women of Ireland play a hugely important role in sustaining Catholicism in the house.

[William Dalrymple]

So the matriarchy, I mean, they hold the table, they preside over the. They hide the priests and things, Right?

[Jane Almayer]

Yeah. And you see that very, very widespread. They're very important to need.

[William Dalrymple]

But are they recognized then as a problem by the English? Are they like, so what. How do they talk about the women at this time, Irish women, then, who are doing these?

[Jane Almayer]

Oh, well, the Irish women, they're lewd, they're whore, they're politically subversive. They're worse than the men. And the language is extremely negative and graphic because they're seen as such a threat because of this ability to promote not just the religion, but defiance. But the Irish culture.

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah, defiance. The stories, Coquelyn and all of those sort of, you know, Irish mythologies that are so precious to those people who don't want to be English, who have their own stories. That is something that you see repeated. I mean, you know, we're going to come to, you know, the laboratory of imperialism. But I wonder if that's just the language of conquest, that if you attack women, you're going to call them whores. It's the worst thing you can do.

[Jane Almayer]

But I also would say that women in this period, if you want chattels, marry. A married woman is a chattel of her husband. And when it comes to the law, it'll be the husband or the father that's prosecuted rather than the woman. So they had this degree actually of flexibility and freedom by virtue of their gender. So it is interesting.

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah.

So just so that I understand, I mean, you mentioned hiding priests. That's obviously something that's going on also in English recusant houses where Jesuit priests in disguise are coming ashore and being held in the Catholic houses. And there are priests holes and secret chambers where the priests can escape and leave the house if the army comes. But I haven't got an impression yet of Tudor control in Ireland. After the break, Jane, maybe you could tell us a little bit about how the Tudors were able to exercise control in the way that the. The previous English kings had not.

[Anita Anand]

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[William Dalrymple]

Welcome back. So just before the break, William brought in a really important thought which is you've got a distance between you. You've got some people who are loyal to you and they've swapped titles and others who haven't. How do the Tudors exert control then in this land over the water?

[Jane Almayer]

So basically the army, so it's about the use of military force and that includes the use of martial law. So in other words, the administration can exercise martial law. So Tudor Ireland is an extraordinarily violent place. So on the one hand you've got extreme violence and the exercise of violence, but on the other, then there are attempts to, if you want, create a service nobility. You have this program of surrender and regrant where you're basically trying to win the support of your leading lords and that that continues.

[William Dalrymple]

But geographically, how widespread is Tudor control?

[Jane Almayer]

Well, basically by this point, Tudor control is pretty widespread. So you see a number of major rebellions in Ireland. But by the 1570s, so you're now starting to get into Elizabeth's reign, you are seeing the Tudors spread Control around that southern province of Munster and then Leinster, which is where Dublin is, where they have very limited control, is in the west, which would be Connacht, and virtually no control in Ulster, which is that northern province.

[William Dalrymple]

So ironically, the area which is now Northern Ireland and is part of Britain now is the area which is not controlled by the British.

It's the wild and the land of the free.

[Jane Almayer]

I mean, it really is. It's terra incognita. And we can see this in the maps. You know, you see these wild men, but they have no notion really of the topography. And remember, mapping is a tool of empire here. So we see, particularly under Elizabeth, extensive mapping occurring of those regions that they do control. But Ulster is really the one area and it's really only the Nine Years War. So the military conquest of Ireland is complete in 1603 with the death of Elizabeth.

[William Dalrymple]

Right, okay. So shuffling forward sort of well into the reign of Henry, and you describe this sort of title swap shop that if you want to be in, you hand in your Irish title, we'll give you a shiny new earldom and an English title. To me, I mean, even though you've described these sort of, you know, this very brutal, backed up with military might rule from. From England that's going on in Ireland, even though it's fairly spread out, it wouldn't have worked unless you had a buy in from those newly swapped earls. And one of them, who, you know, we should talk about a little bit, are the O'Neills, the O'Neill clan who will become the earls of Tyrone and will become the Red Hand in this.

Story still remembered in elsewhere Ulster.

Right, so start from the beginning. Who are the O'Neills and what do they become?

[Jane Almayer]

Well, the O'Neills of Ulster are probably. They're the overlords of Ulster. They're the most important lords. But remember, prior to surrender and regrant, it was about survival of the fittest. It wasn't about primogeniture. Surrender and regrant introduces primogeniture, but it gets very, very messy because they don't follow primogeniture and they're all killing each other. It's a bit like the movie. And this man, Hugh O'Neill that we're talking about, who's the second Earl of Tyrone, born in, I think about 1540, he goes on to become the great Overlord. And he's a fascinating character, Anita, because he's the one who really leads resistance against England and almost wins in this Nine Years War. The amount of money and resource that England has to commit to win the war against your Neil, because they do win it in the end, means that the English crown is almost bankrupt by this period. But it also delays them actually engaging in westward expansionism in America.

[William Dalrymple]

Jane, pause for a second and give us a pen portrait of this man, Hugh O'Neill. Where's he from? What's his education? What's his power base?

[Jane Almayer]

So Hugh O'Neill, one of the O'Neills, he's not actually the eldest son, but we, we won't get too detained by that. He's born in County Armagh, which is in mid Ulster, of absolutely Gaelic blood. So he's allied by kin to all of the leading families in Ulster. He is extraordinarily politically adept and he makes all of these alliances and he uses very effectively his Gaelic network. But what's important, he's actually raised in the household of the Hovenden family, which is one of these old English colonial families, part of the colonial elite, but also as part of the household of Sir Henry Sidney, who is the Lord Deputy or the Lord lieutenant.

[William Dalrymple]

Why? Why is he raised in their house? Why is he not raised by his own people?

[Jane Almayer]

Well, this was typical. So in other words, if a child died and they hadn't reached the age of majority, the state would take over their education. And that was one of the tactics used to try and giant Anglicized.

[William Dalrymple]

You see it in India later yesterday, the schools they set up for the children of Nabal Nawabs and princes, you know, come to.

[Jane Almayer]

But it means somebody like O'Neill. He's a Gaelic chieftain, but he's also highly anglicized.

[William Dalrymple]

Right.

[Jane Almayer]

And speaks the English language and if you want knows English ways extremely well.

[William Dalrymple]

Who is O'Neill fighting in this nine year war when he goes against the English and he's militarizing the resistance and standing up against the Tudorite. Who is he fighting?

[Jane Almayer]

Yeah, so it's primarily Englishmen and at this point it really is English and Welshmen. Scotland isn't part of the conversation. In fact, at this point, the Scots are on Hugh O'Neill's side. The Gallaglas are fighting for Hugh O'Neill. So he's fighting the English. And his particular enemy is a man called Bagnall, Sir Henry Bagnall, whose sister he has married. So he's a very interesting love life. Hugh O'Neill.

[William Dalrymple]

Yes. He's quite an active boy, isn't he?

[Jane Almayer]

He really is.

[William Dalrymple]

So.

[Jane Almayer]

So she is his third wife. He's in his early 40s, she's in her early 20s and she's the daughter of the chief military official in the area. They live in Newry and Bagnall, so she's called Mabel Bagnall. And basically he elopes with her. And she then converts to Catholicism and.

[William Dalrymple]

Lives with which is not something that's going to endure him or her to her family.

[Jane Almayer]

Her brother disowns her. But what's interesting, interesting is that Hugh O'Neill says obviously he has to apologize. He's looking for her dowry. And he says, you know, I've married her because she's gonna bring civility again in adverted commas to my house. So it's women as these agents of civility, English women as agents of civility. But she herself was born in Ireland.

[William Dalrymple]

And one of the figures who's facing them across the divide is none other than Edmund Spenser of the Fairy Queen.

[Jane Almayer]

So with Edmund Spenser, you have the most extraordinary character because he's known as this great Renaissance poet. I remember studying him exactly part of the English canon. In Ireland it's a very different story because Spencer has been a colonial official. He was the secretary of one of the lord deputies. He extensive lands as part of the Munster plantation. And Spencer, of course is writing about the Nine Years War because O'Neill's men actually attack his home in North County Cork.

[William Dalrymple]

He's got good reason to be a bit pissed off.

[Jane Almayer]

Well, he does, but some of the things that he writes in a view of the state of Ireland.

[William Dalrymple]

I think one of the things that is sort of said about him in contemporary things is that you know that Brian Friel's play of 1988, he's a schemer, the leader, the liar, the statesman, the lecher, the patriot, the drunk, the sour bittered emigre. I mean, would they have written about him that way in the time itself as well?

[Jane Almayer]

No, listen, Brian Friel's play Making History is absolutely fantastic. And what Friel does is he brings Hugh O'Neill alive. And Hugh O'Neill is this great Irish nationalist. And by portraying him the way that he does and characterizing him very accurately, probably Anita, he debunks him as this great Irish nationalist. So Friel has a different agenda, which is at the height of the Troubles, one about reconciliation and creating a space for Catholics and Protestants. However, at the time, Hugh O'Neill is very highly regarded by many. They value the fact that he's such an effective military commander. However, of course they write bad things about him as well, because especially in London in around 1600, he has become the most hated man in England. Why? Because the amount of money that it's costing the English exchequer to put the rebellion in Ireland down. So it's really interesting to, you know, see this. On the one hand, they recognize just how politically astute and effective it is. On the other, they vilify him and his followers. And again, this language of he's subhuman, he's villainous, he's treacherous, he's uncivil, he's barbarous, he's savage. So you get both.

[William Dalrymple]

But this rebellion very nearly succeeds.

[Jane Almayer]

It really does, William. But what sort of. It all goes awry, really. So O'Neill has been very closely working with the Spaniards. Remember 1588, the Armada? The Spaniards, they go back to the Spanish court and they say, okay, guys, let's try again.

[William Dalrymple]

A lot of the Armada end up in Ireland, don't they?

[Jane Almayer]

Of course.

[William Dalrymple]

And whenever you see beautiful Irish girls with very dark eyes, everyone always says, oh, they're descendants of the Spanish who got washed up on the Dingwall peninsula or whatever.

[Jane Almayer]

Well, the armada and many of the wrecks. I think about 30 of the wrecks are off the Irish coast. Only about four of them have been actually, actually properly excavated, but they're all there. And every year they commemorate that, actually. Anyway, street of Strand and the Armadorex. But going Back to you, O'Neill, he is working very closely with the Spaniards. And the Spaniards do send an expeditionary force. But instead of landing, what sort of scale? Oh, you're looking at a very significant force of a couple of thousand troops.

[William Dalrymple]

And they land with their weapons.

[Jane Almayer]

They all land, but they land, instead of landing in Ulster, they land in Kinsale. So they land at the other end.

[William Dalrymple]

Of Ireland, which is how far away? Just for people who don't know the.

[Jane Almayer]

Scaling, probably looking at at least by marching two, three weeks march.

[William Dalrymple]

Oh, right. Gosh, that's no use at all, then.

[Jane Almayer]

No, no. Absolutely no use. So what happens is the Spaniards come in in the wrong place. There's this mad scramble then to get the troops down. So they're there to support the Spanish invasion. But of course, what happens is the English intercept. And at the battle of Kinsale, which is in 1601, you have this routing, crushing of the forces, and basically it's game over from that point on.

[William Dalrymple]

Okay, well, we're going to see what happens in the next episode. But this is a good moment to stop. The rebellion is gone badly wrong, and we're about to see a big reaction.

But if you want to hear what happens next right now, and you can't wait. Who can blame you? Sign up to the Empire Club for early access extra bonus episodes, episodes even more special at the moment because they're full of mini interviews with brilliant writers. We nobbled at the Jaipur Literary Festival, so just head to empirepod uk.com that's empirepoduk.com to sign up. And if not, then, you know, we'll miss you, but we'll see you next time. For now, it's goodbye from me, Anita Anand.

Goodbye from me, William Durand.