232. Colonising Ireland: The First Plantations (Ep 2)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Empire
Episode 232: Colonising Ireland: The First Plantations (Ep 2)
Release Date: February 25, 2025
Hosts: William Dalrymple and Anita Anand
Guest Expert: Professor Jane Almayer

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Introduction

In Episode 232 of Empire, hosts William Dalrymple and Anita Anand delve into the complex history of English colonization in Ireland, focusing on the first plantations initiated during the Tudor period. Joined by Professor Jane Almayer, the discussion navigates through military strategies, socio-economic impacts, and the enduring legacy of these early colonial endeavors.

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Tudor Control and Military Strategies

The episode begins by exploring how the Tudor dynasty managed to exert control over Ireland more effectively than their Anglo-Norman predecessors. Professor Almayer explains, “They basically took Dublin and established their administrative and military headquarters there, using it as a base for raids and establishing garrisons in strategic areas” (04:04).

The hosts discuss the construction of fortified castles and tower houses, such as those in Carrickfergus, which served as centers for English troops. Dalrymple highlights the military architecture, noting, “You see a lot of military architecture popping up, especially in areas where they want to exercise control” (04:55).

Religious and Cultural Divides

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the intertwining of religious conflict and colonization. As Elisabeth I's reign progressed, the Protestant-Catholic divide intensified, influencing both colonization policies and resistance movements. Anita Anand observes, “By this stage, the reign of Elizabeth I... begins to really assert itself” (06:28).

Edmund Spencer's writings, particularly his tract A View of the State of Ireland, are scrutinized for their role in advocating the eradication of the Gaelic Irish. Professor Almayer discusses Spencer’s rhetoric: “He describes Ireland as a diseased portion of the state, it must first be cured and reformed” (12:28).

Economic Transformation and Land Confiscation

The episode delves into the economic motivations behind the plantations, emphasizing the shift from a barter-based economy to one centered around money and commercialization. The guest expert explains, “There's this push for commercialization, urbanization and the replacement of an economy that's effectively a barter one with one that is around money” (08:25).

Land confiscation was rampant, with millions of Irish acres seized and redistributed to English and Welsh colonists. “For example, in the 17th century, something like 8 million Irish acres are confiscated. That is a third of the entire country” (07:30). This transfer of land often resulted in the displacement of indigenous populations, who were either forcefully removed or coerced into labor without adequate compensation.

Plantations in Ulster and the Establishment of Londonderry

A focal point of the episode is the plantation of Ulster, particularly the founding of Londonderry by the Honorable Society. Professor Almayer outlines the meticulous planning behind the city’s establishment: “They are instructed... to bring civilization to this economic backwater and to commercialize it” (31:11).

The construction of Derry's formidable walls and the segregation of Protestant settlers from the Catholic population in areas like the Bogside are examined as early instances of enforced division. “The walls date from the 1610s... the Irish Catholics are living in the hinterland... it's the Bogside” (34:01).

Resistance and Social Hierarchy

Resistance to colonization manifested through rebellions, guerrilla warfare, and cultural preservation. The discussion highlights the brutal tactics employed by the English, including massacres, executions, and the use of famine as a weapon. “Something like a third of the population of Ulster is massacred” (18:28).

Additionally, the creation of a hierarchical society was evident, with Protestant colonists establishing dominance over the indigenous Catholic population. The guest expert notes, “You have this quite hierarchical society... it is an extraordinarily ambitious blueprint that the King has for Ulster” (26:15).

Legacy and Comparison to Other Empires

The hosts draw parallels between the plantation policies in Ireland and later colonial ventures, such as those in India and the Americas. The infusion of ethnocentric ideologies from settlers like the West Countrymen, including figures like Sir Walter Raleigh, is discussed as a precursor to broader imperialistic strategies. “There are so many direct comparisons, Anita, made between the Indians in the Americas with the Irish” (29:37).

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Notable Quotes

• Professor Jane Almayer: "They basically take Dublin and have their administrative military headquarters in Dublin and then they have these raids from Dublin... it's military force." (04:27)

• Anita Anand: "Edmund Spencer writes... 'Ireland as a diseased portion of the state, it must first be cured and reformed...'" (12:28)

• Guest Expert: "Plantations have been happening actually under the Tudors as well... you've got four provinces in Ireland, and under the Tudors we see Munster being planted." (22:35)

• Professor Jane Almayer: "This beautiful sort of silver thread which you can reach right into Yeats's poetry... keep alive, even though there is a real attempt to kind of squash them down at this point." (37:13)

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Conclusions

Episode 232 of Empire provides an in-depth examination of the early English plantations in Ireland, highlighting the combination of military strategy, economic ambition, and cultural imposition that fueled colonization. The discussion underscores the profound and lasting impacts of these policies on Ireland's societal fabric, interweaving themes of resistance, identity, and the quest for dominance that resonate through the annals of imperial history.

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Note: Timestamps are referenced in brackets for notable quotes and key points throughout the summary.

Transcript

[William Dalrymple]

If you want access to bonus episodes.

[Anita Anand]

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[William Dalrymple]

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[Anita Anand]

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[Professor Jane Almayer]

Well, hello there, Empire listeners. Before you get stuck into today's episode, William and I have a rather special announcement, don't we?

[William Dalrymple]

We most certainly do because we are taking our sold out London live show Booze and Brews on a UK tour this summer and we are going to be telling the story of all your favorite drinks and how they're connected with Empire, particularly the story of Indian pale ale and the humble G and T.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

I know you think you know about drinks and I know you know they're very prevalent in our, in our lives, in our pubs, in our boozes. But there are some extraordinary stories, including one where a man unexpectedly blows up. So look, we want to look a lot closer at and we want to share those stories with you, but don't worry if you don't drink because we.

[William Dalrymple]

Are also talking about tea. By the middle of the 19th century, the British were drinking so much tea and buying so much tea from China that they had to sell the Chinese opium to cover their costs. And so you can say that the British taste of tea.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Hang on a minute, hang on. So no, no, no, no, no. You're giving away so much as usual. We're not spoiling the whole show though. We are very, you can probably tell. We're just bursting to tell you about all this stuff. We had such fun in London last year. We did it at Latitude, otherwise known as Latitude to some members of presenting the line up here. We are not taking it so far.

[William Dalrymple]

To Glastonbury, but we are taking it.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

So let me tell you where we're going to be. The Theatre Royal in Glasgow. There's a Glasgow in Glasgow. Well, I mean, potato, potato. It's my turn on the 30th of May and the Alexandra Theatre in Birmingham on the 1st of June, the Barbican in York on the 2nd of June, and we will be finish at the Marvellous Beacon in Bristol on the 3rd of June.

[William Dalrymple]

I think we can agree on the pronunciation of Bristol at least. Anyway, our London show sold out almost overnight last year, so don't wait to get your tickets and maybe think of joining the Empire Club. Tell us, Anita, why, if you are.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

A member of the Empire Club, we will email you with a link directly, because they really did sell out so very quickly within a day. So if you're a member of the Empire Club, you can get early access to tickets to make sure you secure yours. Tickets go on sale to members on Wednesday 26th February. That's Wednesday 26th February. They will go on general release on Thursday 27th February. So it makes a lot of sense, you know, to join the club. Buy tickets early, make sure you've got a seat. Just go to empirepod uk.com that's empirepoduk.com early access to tickets and a lot, lot more. Make sure you don't miss out.

[William Dalrymple]

See you in the summ.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Anand.

[Anita Anand]

And me, William Dalrymple.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

And we continue our Ireland series today in the company of the fabulous Professor Jane Almayer. And we sort of considering something last week which I'm not sure we've really got to the bottom of.

[Anita Anand]

No.

[William Dalrymple]

So it's this whole business of how.

[Anita Anand]

Did the Tudors succeed in exercising control over Ireland in a way that the Anglo Normans had actually rather failed in doing?

[Guest Expert]

Great question, William. What happens is they basically take Dublin and have their administrative military headquarters in Dublin and then they have these raids from Dublin, then they establish garrisons in strategic areas. But it really is military force. And in addition to the army, they have these local warlords who are basically operating on behalf of the Crown as well as the use of martial law.

[Anita Anand]

So, from my drives around Ireland, I'm very familiar with those lovely Anglo Irish castles that you see now, sitting often in sort of gorgeous bucolic green meadows, often at strategic crossing places where bridges cross the big rivers and so on. Those are garrisoned in Tudor times by English troops. What's actually happening?

[Guest Expert]

So the English troops will use the. If you want, Anglo Norman. Some of these castles are vast. The one at Carrickfergus, for example.

[Anita Anand]

Enormous.

[Guest Expert]

Enormous, absolutely. But they'll also then build their own fortifications where the troops will be garrisoned. So, for example, Nuri Bagnall builds his own tower house where the troops will be stationed so what we see is a lot of military architecture popping up, especially in these areas where they want to exercise control.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

It does really remind me of the Romans, though. You know, when the Romans came and sort of dropped little garrison places and they could move troops very quickly from place to place, were they connected and interconnected like that?

[Guest Expert]

There's really no really effective road system, Anita. So the most effective way of getting around Ireland is either the river networks or, or taking ships because the roads are just so appalling. But you do have these fortified castles and other communities strategically placed around the country. And then really Dublin remains the military headquarters, the administrative headquarters and use that as your base and go out and.

[Anita Anand]

Raiding parties, military and technological edge that the Tudors have that the Gaelic lords don't.

[Guest Expert]

Well, obviously they've got access to guns and gunpowder.

[Anita Anand]

That's exactly what I mean. Are they, are they much more, much more artillery minded?

[Guest Expert]

Not necessarily, William, because increasingly we find Gaelic lords learning the business of war on the continent. So you get large numbers of Irish mercenaries in the service of Spain and these guys are actually at the cutting edge of warfare. And then what happens is that new style fortifications come relatively late to Ireland. These star shaped bastions.

[Anita Anand]

And by this stage, the reign of Elizabeth I, the Catholic Protestant divide, which continues to this day in Northern Ireland, possibly finally exhausting itself, begins to really assert itself. You have one group of people who are very clearly Catholic who are looking to the continent, going over to the, the Spanish armies and another group who are sailing over from England and sitting in garrisons, taxing and taking land.

[Guest Expert]

Yes. So the population of Ireland at this point is probably about a million people, we don't actually know. And probably about 200,000 are English and Welsh colonists. So it's quite a significant number.

[Anita Anand]

And how long have those English and Welsh colonists been? Are they the descendants of the guys that turned up in Norman times or are they.

[Guest Expert]

No, no, no, no. These are ones who are coming from really the mid 16th century on and.

[Anita Anand]

Taking land and settling it and throwing out the peasants who've been there before.

[Guest Expert]

Exactly. So what we see is mass expropriation. So for example, in the 17th century, something like 8 million Irish acres are confiscated. That is a third of the entire country.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

What does, what does confiscation look like? I mean, you. I confiscate land for you, but what do you do to the family that's farmed this for generations and that, that thinks it is their land? How do you, how do you take it from.

[Guest Expert]

Well, under these surrender and regrant agreements that we talked about. What happens is, if you go into rebellion, then the king comes in and says, hang on, you've been bad, I'm going to take your land. And usually executes the Lord so you're not coming back, and then say, we're going to confiscate your estates. We see this in Munster and then later in Ulster, and then that land is reallocated to settler colonists. Now what happens to the people who are living there, if you want the Gaelic inhabitants is many of them are supposed to be, if you want, driven off their lands, but the truth is they stay. Why? Because you need people to, you know, cut wood and hew water. So, I mean, it's very practical. They need the labor of the.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Are they like indentured labour then? I mean, are they sort of working for a place to live or do they get paid? I mean, you know, what is.

[Guest Expert]

Nobody's really getting paid. Remember, there's no money in Ireland. It's very much a redistributive economy. And that's something that is being changed as part of this colonial process. That there's this push for commercialization, urbanization and the replacement of an economy that's effectively a barter one with one that is around money.

[Anita Anand]

What I'm not entirely clear about is, is it English lords sitting in the castle with Irish peasants or is it new colonist peasantry moving in and farming the fields themselves?

[Guest Expert]

Well, it's actually a little bit of both because what we get are, you know, ordinary English people coming over, upstarts, men on the make who are coming from, you know, relatively humble origins in Eng. And then doing very well, land grabbing. And then all of a sudden they rise up the social hierarchy.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Sorry, this sounds to me just like your description of the East India Company. The person who's the second or third son in England who goes off and joins the East India Company or goes over to India to try and make their money and ends up sort of becoming enormously rich in land owning. Why is it different?

[Anita Anand]

The difference is that the second son who goes over to India, joins the East India Company, becomes an official, shuttles around India and then goes and retires back in England while these guys arrive, take land, farm and stay, right.

[Guest Expert]

And then pass that land onto their children.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

So that is absolutely, you know, it's replacement of the population.

[Guest Expert]

But we have some individual, somebody called the Earl of Cork, who comes over as a penniless sort of land grabber. By 1642, when he dies, he's the richest man not Just in Ireland, but in the three kingdoms, the three Stuart kingdoms, I mean, vast fortunes are being made by these colonists. And actually many of them then become extremely important because they sort of team up with investors in London and they become adventurers sort of on a global scale.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

So, previously, on the last episode we did with you, we were talking about Hugh O'Neill. We were talking about how he was utter pain in the bottom for the British and almost bankrupted the Exchequer with his uprisings and rebellion. And William mentioned Edmund Spencer, and I don't think we did it really justice. So can you give us a pen portrait of Edmund Spencer and why he. His name is now really quite inextricably linked with Hugh O'Neill. And what did he say about it?

[Guest Expert]

Well, it's not that Spencer talks about O'Neill per se. What happens is that Spencer writes a really important tract called A View of the State of Ireland. He writes it at the height of the Nine Years War, after O'Neill's men have basically burned down his home.

[Anita Anand]

And so he's not very fond of you, O'Neill.

[Guest Expert]

Definitely not, nor his followers. But in that, he basically calls for the extirpation of the Gaelic Irish. And nobody uses the word ethnic cleansing or genocide in the early modern period. But that's effectively what Spencer is calling for.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Like what? Tell us exactly what he said first.

[Guest Expert]

Fire and sword. In other words, use fire and sword. Use martial law. That's a given. But he's also saying in Ireland, what we need is the English colonists to come in. We need to get rid of these treacherous Irish and in their place, bring in English colonists who will civilize again, inadvertently civilized men. Yeah, but introduce Protestantism, but also commercialize Ireland. So on the one hand, you've got to get rid of the indigenous population. On the other, then you've got to bring in these colonists who are going to civilize Ireland.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

He had an influential voice and we. We've talked about the fact he penned the Fairy Queen. But who was he was this man. Who was he? Why does it matter that he writes this quite poisonous piece of ethnic cleansing?

[Guest Expert]

Well, he's one of these men on the make. He's from quite humble background in England. Why is it important? It's because View, which actually isn't published until the 1630s, but it becomes a foundational text. In other words, it influences policies about Ireland. And this sort of very hard line ethnocentricity, cultural superiority, becomes absolutely embedded in the English view of Ireland.

[Anita Anand]

He describes Ireland as a diseased portion of the state, it must first be cured and reformed before it could be in a position to appreciate the good sound laws and blessings of the nation. And very particularly, he pushes for the banning of the Irish language being taught so that the speech being Irish, the heart must needs be Irish, for out of abundance of the heart, the tongue speaketh. So he's banning languages. He's fire and sword. He's not a. He's not a very. I had no idea what I was reading. The Fairy Queen. No, he was a poisonous character.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

No, you separate the politics from, you know, the Fairy Queen is just racism.

[Guest Expert]

As we would understand it today. Absolutely. But what's so important about Spencer, he doesn't just influence the people around him. He then becomes a foundational text right through until the 19th century. So as imperialists go out to empire, including in India, they will have been sort of fed a view of the state of Ireland.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

And they quote Spencer, as in, this.

[Guest Expert]

Is the way Cambrensis has been in the earlier period. It's a foundational text. And what's interesting is the manuscript circulates very widely, but it's like everything when it's printed, all of a sudden you're reaching vast numbers of people. And of course it's in English so people can read it. And because it's Spencer, this great poet, people read it.

[Anita Anand]

And I should just say that with it comes what looks like a woodcutter, Spencer, who is this sort of figure, like Dick Dastardly. Dick Dastardly with a ruff rather than with Mutley. And he's got this very little pointy goatee beard, this little pointy nose. His hair is in this almost like a widow's peak.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Fox kind of face. Yeah, that. He's a fox.

[Anita Anand]

He's a fox.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

He's a fox, yeah.

[Guest Expert]

Interestingly, though, his. He has a son, Peregrine, who then marries a Catholic and spent.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Oh, my God. How did he deal with that?

[Guest Expert]

Well, he dies. I think his encounter with Hugh O'Neill really, you know, finished him off. So he goes back to London to basically, you know, berate about what O'Neill has done. But then his son marries a Catholic and where, you see, his grandson is petitioning the Cromwellians for his grandfather's estates back and they hear his plea and they noted the record. They say he was the son of the. The poet Spencer. So it's really interesting to see that.

[Anita Anand]

Does he get the land back?

[Guest Expert]

I think he does, actually.

[Anita Anand]

Yeah. So when we were dealing with the uprising in the last episode, we talked about how the Spanish landed, but landed in the wrong place. And then there's the siege of Kinsale. The Spanish army fails and the English get the upper hand.

[Guest Expert]

And then what happens is the Irish are in disarray, but they really, it's guerrilla warfare until at 1603, they finally surrender.

[Anita Anand]

It's an extraordinary decade. Exactly the same time as this. The first English voyages are going to Indonesia. There's the foundation of the colony in Virginia, the Isle of Roanoke. That colony fails. And this is going very badly.

[Guest Expert]

Right.

[Anita Anand]

So the English are expanding in all directions but making a bit of a balls up of all of it.

[Guest Expert]

And of course, Elizabeth is dead, but he doesn't know that. And there's a new king on the throne. It's James VI of Scotland.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

How do you know that? Hugh O'Neill, who's like the bane of England's life and is fighting and putting everything into fighting and she doesn't know there's a new monarch because there's no.

[Guest Expert]

Internet, there's no mobile phones. It takes weeks for news to come from London to Ireland. So what has happened is he thinks he signed a peace with Elizabeth, but in practice she's dead.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

The treaty means nothing because the president.

[Guest Expert]

It does mean something because he's made it with the crown. And then what happens is James VI comes in and to begin with, he says, okay, O'Neill, we'll work together. But actually from that point on, the military conquest of Ireland really has been completed by 6 1603, and we start to see serious encroachment onto these estates in Ulster. And so in 1607, O'Neill says, okay, we have this flight of the Earls where he leaves Ireland from Donegal, Rathmullen, and actually then goes to Spain looking for help and then actually ends up in Rome because the Spaniards aren't willing to help.

[Anita Anand]

So is this a bit like the English leaving the Americas? There's a mass movement out of the defeated rebel you're dealing with.

[Guest Expert]

The cream of the Gaelic aristocracy goes with O'Neill. Hundreds of their followers go with them who then actually enlist in the armies of Spain.

[Anita Anand]

Is this the Wild Geese or is.

[Guest Expert]

That the Wild Geese? And obviously the Wild Geese we associate then with the French in the later period. But it's the beginning of that serious military migration. It's actually begun earlier, but it really increases in.

[Anita Anand]

And the Spanish take them all in.

[Guest Expert]

Happy days. Give them must fodder.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Well, I mean, you know, tin soldiers, you wind them up and send them back and you frustrate your enemy. But it's Also quite useful for the English because whoever flies is the one who's disloyal. So you've got like a whole map of treachery for them and they must be whooping it up. We know everybody now by name, by face, who's buggered off to Spain, and they are the enemy. We know who they are and we can round up their friends. We know exactly where this circle of treason is.

[Guest Expert]

And two things happen. One is O'Neill dies in exile in Rome, and by this point he's broken, he's blind, he's an alcoholic. And then what happens is the king then uses this opportunity to confiscate not just Oneills estates, but the estates of all of the earls, because he goes with Redhue, O'Donnell and others. So all of a sudden you have most of Ulster that's confiscated. And once it's expropriated, then it can be, if you want, filled with your own colonists and planters.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

And can I just remind people what you said in the first episode? Ulster for us is the loyalist part of Northern Ireland, but it became so because it was the most wild and resistant part of Ireland.

[Anita Anand]

And it's the guilty flea.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Yeah, but it's. When the guys peg it out of the country, it's left open for this to happen.

[Anita Anand]

And what are the scale of the casualties? And are we talking a sort of genocidal wipeout of the original indigenous population, or is it just a few toffs heading off to Spain?

[Guest Expert]

Well, where the real deaths have occurred is during the Nine Years War itself, because England uses sort of fire and sword campaigns and, you know, something like a third of the population of Ulster is massacred.

[Anita Anand]

A third of the population of Ulster. What are the kind of numbers we.

[Guest Expert]

Don'T actually know, William, but you're talking about, I would say, tens of thousands, thousands of people lose their lives.

[Anita Anand]

And it's not just the fighting men.

[Guest Expert]

It'S the women, very much women and children. What you see are the English target civilians, particularly women and children.

[Anita Anand]

And what happens? I mean, rape, killing.

[Guest Expert]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. All sorts of atrocities committed. And they also use famine as a tactic. And obviously we see this happening time and again in an Irish context, that because you're destroying crops, you're reducing people then and letting them starve to death. And there are a number of accounts of alleged cannibalism where basically, you know, people are eating each other because at times there's nothing else to eat.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Did the people of England know that this was happening in their name? Because I'M just wondering because when some of the greatest atrocities happened in India, for example, when the English or the British heard about it, there was an upsurge of sympathy, there was a revulsion, you know, not in our name did that happen at all during this period.

[Guest Expert]

Not that I'm aware of. What you see is this sense of celebration at long last. You know, that traitorous O'Neill and his sort of locust like, and this is the sort of language they're looking, you know, they're vermin, they're, they're insects, they're caterpillars. I mean, they're very, very, very dismissive. And it's a great victory or it's actually portrayed as this great victory for England.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Let's take a break now. Join us after the break where we find out what happens now that there is a vacuum in Ulster and everything is up in the air.

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[Anita Anand]

Welcome back. Back. So in the last half of the episode, we saw the final defeat of the Gallic resistance and the mass evacuation of the old Gallic nobility. Isn't just one or two of them who leave, the whole lot pack up and go off to Spain, leaving the Irish, which are left effectively defenseless. And this is a period of great violence. This is a period when people are extremely ruthless. There's no understanding of anything like human rights or international law. And the English come back and they begin the plantations. Jane, Omar, tell us all about what a plantation is and how it affects itself on the ground.

[Guest Expert]

So let's be very clear. Plantations have been happening actually under the Tudors as well. That's when we've seen Munster and other parts planted.

[Anita Anand]

Munster is the South, Cork and Kerry and this sort of area.

[Guest Expert]

Exactly. So you've got four provinces in Ireland, and under the Tudors we see Munster being planted. But also the other two provinces, Leinster, which is where Dublin is, there are some modest little plantations.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Plantations of what? What are they being forced to grow?

[Guest Expert]

A plantation is literally where you take people and you plant.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

So it's nothing to do with crops.

[Guest Expert]

Sorry, I should have been clearing it. No, it's about planting people, and those people in turn will plant crops.

[Anita Anand]

It's more like Israeli settlements from the west bank than plantations in the West Indies.

[Guest Expert]

Very much so. Very much so. So we've got Leinster with its plantations, and then in Connaught, which is the province in the west, there are attempts, but there's not so much plantation going on there with the Flight of the Earls. Now Ulster is open to plantation. So there are nine counties in Ulster, and we see most of Ulster being confiscated with the Flight of the Earls. And there's two types of plantation going on in Ulster. You have informal plantations going on in County Antrim and County Down. So County Antrim and County down are the ones that. Where Belfast is today.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Exactly. That we know from the news.

[Guest Expert]

That you know from the news. County Antrim. I just want to say this is actually being planted by Scots, the McDonald's of Antrim, who has been Catholic.

[Anita Anand]

Because they're not far away.

[Guest Expert]

Because they're not far away.

[Anita Anand]

They could just sail over the sea to come over from Stranran.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

But do they give them financial inducement? Do they say, come on over, Scott?

[Guest Expert]

Well, actually, they've been there for a while and happens is they're loyal to the king. And the king likes Sir Randall MacDonald, who is the first Earl of Antrim. And it says, listen, County Anrim is a particularly problematic area from the Crown's perspective, because it's so far, it's that northwest part, Giants Causeway. And he says, listen, you take care of that.

[Anita Anand]

Where the ferry lands from Stranrard.

[Guest Expert]

It's exactly it. And then what you have in county down are the Montgomery family, who are still there, and they basically have a plantation and you've got the Hamiltons and the Montgomery's who've come over from Ayrshire.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

I just want to be really clear because you. I mean, you use this phrase, and you know it all the time. So you know they have a plantation. Does that mean that they call people over from Scotland, say, you know what the head big cheese Montgomery says, We've got land to put you on. Come on over here, boys. And you will make money. So that's what you mean by.

[Guest Expert]

That's what I mean by plantation. So what they'll do is they're given 2 or 3,000 acres and you have to bring in 10 families per thousand acres. And then those families have to bring others in. So you create Protestant colonies also.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Also Protestant schemes as well. Really?

[Guest Expert]

Yeah, Some are working the land, but of course they need the Irish indigenous population to work the land. But what we're moving from is if you want a semi nomadic barter economy into a settled agricultural one. And is this transition is happening and there's huge emphasis on urbanization. So a lot of these, these colonists who are coming in are also founding towns because towns are so important, not just for strategic control, but also for this commercialization that's going on.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

So then you have, for the first time in these lands, you have an urban class and a peasant class where everyone was the same at one point and working and moving around, you suddenly have, you know, the haves and have nots very much.

[Guest Expert]

So very much.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

And they can be delineated on religious lines because the ones who have not happen to be the old Catholics who were there before you do have some.

[Guest Expert]

Catholic lords like the McDonald's of Antrim. So, you know, it's not necessarily purely on Catholic.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

No, no, no.

[Guest Expert]

It's more. It's more subtle than that.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

You know, how is the throne not worried about having somebody who is a Catholic after all of the very strong feelings of the last 50 years having that position?

[Guest Expert]

Anne of Denmark converts to Catholicism. Charles I marries a Catholic. So actually, the issue with Catholicism isn't with the Crown, it's with those underneath the crown and the lo Deputy. So as long as you've got the ear of the Crown, actually, you're all right. And people like Randall McDonald have the ear of the Crown. So I've talked about the informal plantation, but in addition to that, you've got the formal plantation of six counties that are confiscated when O'Neill and the Earls flee. And those are the counties that are divided into lots and the majority are given to colonists. They call them undertakers because they literally undertake to plant or colonize their estates. And that means bringing people in mostly from England, but also from Wales. But now they're coming from Scotland as Well, and that's really important. So you've got that group, but you also then have a group of what we call servitors. These are people who have served the Crown loyally during the Nine Years War, and they're being rewarded with Irish land. And then the third group you have are the deserving Irish. And the deserving Irish Irish are Catholic, mostly Gaelic people who have served the Crown and they're being rewarded for their loyalty. Neither the servitors nor the deserving Irish are expected to colonize and civilize the way the undertakers are. So you have this quite hierarchical society. And in addition to the colonists, they give land to corporate bodies. And we'll talk about Derry in a minute. Or London Derry, but also civilizing institutions like Trinity College Dublin, which is my own university. It's given extensive lands in Ulster. So it's really an extraordinarily ambitious blueprint that the King has for Ulster.

[Anita Anand]

And is the idea to sort of drive the Gaelic Irish.

[Guest Expert]

That's the original.

[Anita Anand]

Into the sea, into the bogs?

[Guest Expert]

Yeah, that's the idea. And of course, it doesn't happen in practice because they don't have enough human capital. It's as simple as that. You also see a lot of asset stripping going on by the Protestant colonists. They're not supposed to do that, but they want to make money quick. So what do they do? They fell the ancient Irish forests. And it's during this period that we see serious ecological damage done to ire.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

So, I mean, William has pointed out the dates, the importance of the dates, and they really. Are they so resonant? These things are happening at the same time that the early colonization of the Americas is happening. And you also have this group. I mean, I know we've chatted informally about this, you and I, that you have sort of suspects involved in both issues seen at both scenes. And this one is the West Countrymen. Tell us about the west country men. They're fascinating.

[Guest Expert]

So what we have here are a group of colonists, particularly. Particularly Munster planters. Who are we talking about? Sir Walter Raleigh and his half brother, Sir Humphrey Gilbert Ralph Lane. These men are all involved in these early attempts to colonize Francis Drake and Sir Francis Drake. And they've owned land in Munster. And then they take that experience of Munster, obviously with them to the New World. And it's not just the experience of plantation in Munster. It's also these ethnocentric ideologies that have.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Been superiority, that we are better than all of you. And therefore we could just come here and you can serve us.

[Guest Expert]

Exactly. And there are so many direct comparisons, Anita, made between the Indians in the Americas with the Irish, again, categorized, you.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Know, not as intelligent, not as sophisticated. They are there to serve. They're good for serving, all of that kind of thing. You know, there's nothing that can be done about them to civilize them. They are uncivilized, the savage.

[Guest Expert]

They're barbarians. Yeah.

[Anita Anand]

So, Jane, it's at this point that we turn to Derry and the honorable Irish society, which is found another of these corporations, this corporate Elizabethan colonialism founded in a sense, not directly by the state, but by a corporation.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Can I just. You've said Derry, and immediately my BBC hackles go up because I'm not used to using the term. And just moving on for me, a little story, Jane. You'll know who Gerry Anderson is. They're like complete. The Terry Wogan of Ireland, right. Legend of broadcasting. He took me for a little tour and we went around Belfast and he told me this. What we're walking through now is stroke city. And I said, what do you mean, stroke city? And he goes, because you don't say derry, you say derry Stroke Londonderry. And therefore the people here call it stroke city because it's just much easier. So do you just say Derry at this point, or is it Derry Stroke Londonderry. Even back then, I'm going to call it dairy, but. But is it. Is it back then? Do people call it. I mean, just. Just to be very clear, the Protestants.

[Anita Anand]

Call it London dairy and the call.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

It dairy, but even back then, I mean, where does this all start from? I just want to know.

[Guest Expert]

Is dairy.

[Anita Anand]

And then they add the London.

[Guest Expert]

When whenever dairy is given by the king to colonize you about back.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

It's been strict city even back then.

[Guest Expert]

Absolutely.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

So you call it dairy and I'll call it dairy. That's fine. But it goes back that far are.

[Anita Anand]

It's the honorable society who say Londonderry. They're from London and they call it Londonderry.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

That's fantastic. So anyway, I just wanted to also boast that Gerry Anderson took me around, that's all.

[Anita Anand]

But is that literally the case? It's because they're London merchants. And so people call it Londonderry.

[Guest Expert]

Yeah. So it was the 12 guilds and some of the other minor guilds that are given the city. And it's not just the city. It's the entire county of what was called rain that becomes Londonderry. It's the county of Londonderry. And they're instructed okay, guys, over to you. It's up to you to bring, if you want, civilization to this economic backwater and to commercialize it. And that is why I compare derry to Bombay. You put the infrastructure in place. The first thing you have to do is you have to fortify it, build the walls, and we'll come back to the walls. But the other thing you have to do is make it economically prosperous for the city of London and for the king. Now, they initially invest, William, about 20,000 pounds, which is a lot of money in the early 17th century. But actually building the walls, building the cathedral and develop the end costs about 60,000. So it's a lot of money for them.

[Anita Anand]

To give a comparison with the East India Company, the largest donor to the East India company invests £1,000.

[Guest Expert]

Right. But interestingly, going back to the charter, it's modeled on that of the East India Company. But also in terms of the membership of the honorable society, there's tremendous overlap between the East India Company and the directors of the Irish society. I do think it's worth just reflecting for a moment on the walls of Derry, which you walked all those years ago because. Because it's the only town in Ireland that has its original 17th century walls. They're about a mile in circumference, and in the middle you've got this diamond shape layout and a grid within that and that layout.

[Anita Anand]

It's very much of the time, isn't it? Because now artillery is a thing. So you have to build special fortifications that will take on the new forms of artillery. Lower but thicker than the old forms of town walls.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Does it still remain largely Irish speaking, Gaelic speaking, this whole area, or is it English speaking? What. What are normal people who aren't landowners?

[Guest Expert]

Well, obviously there is a merchant community in the city of Derry. This is the early 17th century. But you also. It's a garrison town. And then if you want, the Irish Catholics are living in the hinterland in Donegal, which it would be to the west and then to County Londonderry. And then what they do is they establish these little plantation towns in the hinterland around them. So a little town like Draperstown, obviously founded by London drapers. Exactly.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Honorable, yes.

[Guest Expert]

So you see these little communities starting to emerge. And actually it's really at one level quite successful in that the city does manage to bring in, you know, significant numbers of settlers. However, it doesn't make money. And so the crown is constantly bitching and saying, you know, it's not successful. You're not making enough money.

[Anita Anand]

One of the features of the very early English settlements in India is that you get what they called at the time a black town and a white town, and there's often a ditch between the two. Do you have similar sort of thing in Derry? Do you have the Catholics living in one bit or are they outside the walls?

[Guest Expert]

I was gonna say they're outside the walls.

[Anita Anand]

They're not in the walls at all.

[Guest Expert]

No, no, no, that would be for the Protestants. You'll have. The Irish town is always outside the walls. And in this case, it's the Bogside.

[Anita Anand]

The Bogside is where the Catholics went.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

And that was literally boggy land that nobody else would want to live in.

[Guest Expert]

And what's so interesting is when Derry is on a high promontory, it's very strategically located overlooking Loch Swilly, and you look down then on the Bogside, and of course, this is where the Paras set themselves up in 1972 and Bloody Sunday, but we'll come to that due course. But these walls are so formidable.

[Anita Anand]

So if the Protestants are in the town and the Catholics are out in the Bogside, are there also among those in the Bogside people that had for generations lived in the town and are now being kicked out?

[Guest Expert]

Well, the town really is built in this period. It would have been settlement. But the walls, they date from the 1610s. So, of course they were kicked out. And some of them will just.

[Anita Anand]

So again, like Palestinians in a place like Silwan on the edge of Jerusalem, who have been kicked out and the settlers are coming in and taking their houses.

[Guest Expert]

Exactly.

[Anita Anand]

Exactly that same model.

[Guest Expert]

Remember Gaelic Ireland, it was very rural, so you don't have this level of urbanization that we're seeing. So it's not exactly. They're in a town. Before that, they would have been dispersed in rural communities and they practice transhumance.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

So interesting what happens when you expel people and put them in. In the bog side and you have big walls and you are literally looking down on them from these high walls.

[Guest Expert]

Well, they're not.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

What is the level of resentment? I mean, is there resistance? Are there.

[Guest Expert]

Of course there's resistance.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

What kind of thing is happening?

[Guest Expert]

Resistance will range from outright rebellion. And we see a whole series of.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Little rebellions in the 1600s.

[Guest Expert]

Well, we see it throughout the 16th century and then into the 17th century. So take that as a given rebellion in 1641, and that actually it gives the Catholics control of Ireland or of much of Ireland for a decade, and we'll come to that. But I want to just reflect on resistance because I think Resistance and empire go hand in hand. And we see the Irish resisting empire. It might be a commitment to the practice of Catholicism. That's a form of resistance. The Irish language is such an important badge of identity. But we also see the poets and, you know, these cultural actors who are saying, you remember who you are. And they're very effective at trying to mobilize people and remind them of what they stand for. And they say, listen, don't be fooled by these English fashions. Don't be taken in and become a Protestant. You know, remember who you are and your commitment to Protestantism.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

This beautiful sort of silver thread which you can reach right into Yeats's poetry. You know, sort of Ema with her hands all rattled with the dye. There are all Irish folklore stories that keep alive, even though there is a real attempt to kind of squash them down at this point.

[Guest Expert]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Anita Anand]

Is there also sort of just banditry in the countryside? If you're a Protestant on a horse trying to get from Londonderry to Dublin, do you need to take an escort at this time?

[Guest Expert]

I mean, you're dealing with a society that's highly militarized. So, of course, there are issues of banditry, but what you find is that the English exercise martial law throughout the early 17th century, so the consequences are extraordinarily grim. Should you cross that line.

[Anita Anand]

Is it gibbets on the edge of town? Is it. Is it racks?

[Guest Expert]

Well, it's usually summary execution. That's what, you know, you'll. You'll see that and people being hung.

[Anita Anand]

But again, as over with two communities living side by side, you're getting into marriage as well.

[Guest Expert]

And I think it's important to remember that. That there is assimilation. We talked about Hugh O'Neill and Mabel Bagnell. She converted to Catholicism. And you'll see this consistently, especially amongst the elite, a lot of intermarriage. It doesn't.

[Anita Anand]

Is it English men with Irish women?

[Guest Expert]

Yes, especially men on the men. So they'll take an Irish wife, an heiress, an heiress, but especially one with blue blood, because they want that ancient pedigree. But they will insist that the children are brought up as Protestants. And at this point, we see some of the big Irish families, the butlers of Ormond, whose seat is in Kilkenny Castle, they convert to Protestantism. So it's usually after a period of wardship, and wardship is when the Crown. Crown really operates on behalf of one of these, you know, the heirs. Then they marry into a Protestant family.

[Anita Anand]

A little bit later in Scotland, you've got the Scots Aristocracy sending their kids to London or English schools to be educated. Have you got the beginning of that going on?

[Guest Expert]

You do, William. So what happens again, especially the elite? Well, first you've got Trinity College Dublin which is established, but even better than Trinity is to send your sons to Eton and then to Oxford. Cape Cambridge is deemed to be too Protestant, but of course it's the Church of Ireland, so that means it's an Anglican Church.

[Anita Anand]

And so you've got a whole bunch of now Irish landowning elite children who are speaking with English accents.

[Guest Expert]

Yes, you do. So we saw that with Hugh O'Neill. He was sort of educated in the Pale and became Anglicized and that is on steroids. Whenever they spend time in England, the other place they go to is the Inns of Court in London. And many of them actually will have some sort of legal access to the law and partly they need that to outwit it back in Ireland. Ireland. But others, then it's Anglicization.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

Gandhi, Nehru, Jinnah. I mean again, I mean we're going to come to this, but I just keep getting sort of really itchy enamel on my teeth because all these lawyers, all these lawyers, you know, again, the same thing. So you know, Indians can go and study the law, but there's a certain level and only that level that they can attain in their homeland. But it does arm them to fight when they get back. Anyway, look, we've come to the end of our time with this. Jane, you come back.

[Anita Anand]

I'm so ashamed.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

I didn't know this so interesting at.

[Anita Anand]

All because it's, yeah, it's so similar to the, to the Indian stuff and yet it's so close.

[Professor Jane Almayer]

100, 100. Jane, come back for us. Until the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnand.

[Anita Anand]

And goodbye for me, William Duranpool.

[Al Murray]

Hi there, I'm Al Murray, co host of we have ways of making you talk, the world's premier Second World War history podcast from Gold War Hanger.

[James Holland]

And I'm James Holland, best selling World War II historian. And together we tell the best stories from the war. This time we're doing a deep dive into the last major attack by the Nazis on the west, the Battle of the Bulge.

[Al Murray]

And what's so fascinating about this story is we've been able to show how quite a lot of the popular history about this battle is kind of the wrong way around, isn't it Jim? The whole thing is a disaster from the start. Even Hitler's plans for the attack are insane and divorced from Reality.

[James Holland]

Well, you're so right. But what we can do is celebrate this as an American success story for the ages. From their generals at the top to the gis on the front line. Full of gumption and grit, the bold should be remembered as a great victory for the usa.

[Al Murray]

And if this sounds good to you, we've got a short taste for you here. Search we have ways, wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks. Yeah.

[James Holland]

Anyway, so who is Overstu van Fuhrer? Joachim Piper.

[Al Murray]

What I see is jaunty hat and I just think possess skull and crossbones. Well, I see his reputation and I think, you know, you might be a handsome devil, but the emphasis is on the devil bit rather than the hands.

[James Holland]

Anyway, be that is May. He's 29 years old and he's got, he's got a very interesting career really because he comes from a, you know, a pretty right wing family. Let's face it. He's joined the SS at a pretty early, early stage. He's very. International socialism. He's also been Himmler's adjutant. Yeah, he took a little bit of time off in the summer of 1940 to go and fight with, with the 1st Waffen SS Panzer Division. Yeah, did pretty well. Went back to being Himmler's adjutant, then went off and commanded troops in, in the Eastern Front. Rose up to be a pretty young regimental commander. I mean it's not many people that age are no besturm Banfuhrer, which is. Colonel.

[Al Murray]

Yes, I, you see, what must it have been like if you're in, if, if Himmler's adjutant turns up and he's been posted to you as a officer, do you think? Well, he only got that job because of, because of his connections. For Piper, it must have been always, he's always having to prove himself, surely, because he's, he has turned up. He's not worked his way through the ranks of the Waffen ss. He's dolloped in. Having come from head office, as it were. It must be a peculiar position to be in. Right. He's got lots to prove. Right, that's what I'm saying.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And he's, he's, he's from a sort of middle class background as well.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

But he's got an older brother who's had mental illness and attempted suicide and never, never really recovers and actually has died in TB eventually in 1942. He's got a younger brother called Horst who's also joined the SS&TOTEN cop Verbanda and died in a never really properly explained accident in Poland in 1941. Right. Piper gains a sort of growing reputation on the Eastern Front for being kind of very inspiring. Fearless, you know, obviously courageous. You know, all the guys love him, all that kind of stuff. But he's also orders the entire. The destruction of entire village of Krasnaya Polyana in a kind of revenge killing by Russian partisan. Yeah. And his unit becomes known as the Blowtorch Battalion because of his penchant for touching Russian villages. So he's got all the gongs. He's got Iron Cross, second class, first Class. Cross of Gold, Knight's Cross. Did very well at Kursk briefly in Northern Italy, actually, then in Ukraine, then in Normandy. He suffers a nervous breakdown. Yeah. And he's relieved of his command on the 2nd of August. And he's hospitalized from September to October. So he's not in command during Operation Lutech. And then he Ret. Joins 1st SS Panzer Regiment as its commander again in October 1944. It's really, really odd. I mean.

[Al Murray]

But isn't that interesting, though, because if you're a lancer, if you're an ordinary soldier, you're not allowed to have a nervous breakdown. You don't get hospitalized, you don't get time off. How you could interpret this is. This is a sort of Nazi princeling, isn't he? He's Himmler's adjutant. He's demonstrated the necessary Nazi zeal on the Eastern front and all this sort of stuff. It comes to Normandy where they. Where they're losing. Why else would he have a nervous breakdown? He shown all the zeal and application in the Nazi manner up to this point, and they're losing, you know, and. Because he's a knob, you know, because he's well connected, he gets to be hospitalized. If he has a nervous breakdown, he isn't told like an ordinary German soldier. There's no such thing as combat fatigue, mate. Go back to work.

[James Holland]

Yes. And it's a nervous breakdown, not combat fatigue.

[Al Murray]

Well, yes, of course, but.

[James Holland]

But you know what SS soldier said of him. Piper was the most dynamic man I ever met. He just got things done.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You get this image I have of him of. Of having this kind of sort of slightly manic energy, kind of. He's virulently National Socialist. He's got this great reputation. He's damned if anyone's going to tarnish it. You know, he's a. He's a driver, you know, all those things.

[Al Murray]

He's trying to make the will triumph, isn't he? He's working towards the Fuhrer he's imbued with. He knows what's expected of him. Extreme violence and cruelty and pushing his men on. I mean, he's sort of. He's the Fuhrer Princip writ large, isn't he? As a. As an SS officer.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Which why cruelty and extreme violence are bundled in to wherever he goes, basically.