234. Battle of the Boyne: Clash of Two Kings (Ep 2)

Summary

Empire Podcast Episode 234: Battle of the Boyne: Clash of Two Kings (Ep 2) Release Date: March 4, 2025
Hosts: William Dalrymple and Anita Anand
Guest: Jane Almayer, Author of "Making Empire: Ireland, Imperialism and the Early Modern World"

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Introduction

In Episode 234 of Empire, hosts William Dalrymple and Anita Anand delve into the pivotal Battle of the Boyne, exploring its historical significance, the personalities involved, and its enduring impact on Irish and British societies. Joined by author Jane Almayer, the discussion navigates through the tumultuous period of the mid to late 17th century, shedding light on the complex interplay of politics, religion, and power that defined the era.

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Cromwell’s Death and the Aftermath ([02:34]–[04:22])

The episode opens with a discussion on Oliver Cromwell’s demise. William Dalrymple notes, “[Cromwell dies] of malaria, actually, in 1659” ([02:34]). Anita Anand humorously queries the specifics of his ailment, leading to Dalrymple clarifying the prevalence of malaria in regions like Kent and Cambridge during that period.

Dalrymple elaborates on Cromwell’s tumultuous end and the subsequent instability:

“Cromwell was buried in Westminster Abbey. He's dug up and his body is just scattered... We don't know where the head is” ([04:16]).

Jane Almayer adds depth by sharing local lore about Cromwell’s remains:

“The trunk ended up in the burial... buried secretly in the crypt of St Nicholas in Chiswick” ([04:30]).

This segment underscores the enduring animosity towards Cromwell in Ireland and sets the stage for the Restoration.

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Restoration of Charles II and Land Settlements in Ireland ([05:23]–[07:29])

Anita Anand prompts the transition from Cromwell to the Restoration, with Dalrymple explaining the delicate balance Charles II had to maintain:

“Charles II really can't afford to alienate [Cromwellians]. He needs their support to govern effectively” ([05:54]).

This led to complex land settlements in Ireland, balancing the entrenched Cromwellian landholders with the aspirations of loyalist Catholics. Despite tensions, figures like the Duke of Ormond facilitated a period of relative prosperity in Ireland during the 1660s and 1670s, with Dublin flourishing as a significant city.

Dalrymple highlights economic developments driven by the Navigation Act:

“Ireland is starting economically to prosper on the back of English colonial expansionists” ([07:06]).

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Religious Tensions and the Rise of James II ([07:09]–[10:26])

The conversation shifts to the evolving religious landscape under Charles II, who, though a practicing Anglican, harbored sympathies towards Catholicism. Dalrymple reveals:

“His brother, the Duke of York, openly converts to Catholicism” ([08:37]).

This conversion ignited fears among Protestants, setting the stage for future conflicts. The impending Catholic succession under James II becomes a central concern, leading to heightened tensions between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland.

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William of Orange and the Glorious Revolution ([10:26]–[21:12])

Anita Anand introduces a personal connection to the historical narrative through her ancestral ties to Arnold Hughes Keppel, an alleged close associate of William of Orange. The discussion then delves into William’s background:

“William of Orange was born in 1650... He's a great proponent of religious toleration” ([21:30]).

Dalrymple paints a detailed portrait of William, emphasizing his diplomatic skills and his role in the Glorious Revolution—a pivotal moment where Parliament invited William to take the English throne, leading to James II’s exile.

Anita Anand shares her excitement about uncovering family history linked to this period, adding a personal dimension to the historical discourse.

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The Battle of the Boyne and Its Impact ([21:30]–[40:54])

The heart of the episode centers on the Battle of the Boyne, fought on July 1, 1690. Dalrymple explains the strategic maneuvers that led to William’s victory:

“William sends his men north... he entraps them. They can't get across the river, so they're overwhelmed” ([30:40]).

Despite its historical prominence, Dalrymple notes that the battle itself was tactically disappointing for the Jacobites, primarily due to lackluster leadership from James II:

“James, particularly now he's an old man... the Jacobites perform poorly and ultimately lose the battle” ([29:42]).

The aftermath of the battle saw James II fleeing back to France, resulting in negative portrayals among Irish Catholics who felt abandoned. This defeat solidified the Protestant Ascendancy, a socio-political dominance that persisted for centuries.

Dalrymple discusses the broader ramifications, including the Siege of Aughrim and the Treaty of Limerick, which promised religious toleration but was ultimately broken by Protestant forces. This betrayal led to stringent penal laws against Catholics, dramatically reshaping Irish society.

Anita Anand underscores the lasting legacy of these events:

“The Battle of the Boyne is seen as the moment the Protestant ascendancy is solidified” ([37:12]).

Dalrymple reflects on contemporary efforts to reconcile these historical divisions:

“It's an important moment that [the commemoration center at Old Bridge] will in the course of time... share a history that acknowledges, in a very respectful way, where we differ” ([38:51]).

He expresses cautious optimism about Ireland’s future, drawing parallels with its partition and ongoing political dynamics:

“Ireland is a really good example of a two-state solution... key is it happens by the ballot box and not by the bayonet” ([40:32]).

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Conclusion and Reflections

As the episode concludes, Dalrymple and Anand emphasize the enduring significance of the Battle of the Boyne in shaping Irish and British identities. Jane Almayer’s insights provide a nuanced understanding of the period’s complexities, highlighting the intricate relations between empire, religion, and power.

Dalrymple encourages listeners to engage deeply with history to foster a more inclusive and reconciled future:

“It’s about bowing to the past without being bound by it” ([37:12]).

He lauds Almayer’s work, recommending her book as essential reading for those seeking to comprehend the intricate tapestry of empire and its legacies.

“Jane Almayer, do read her fantastic book 'Making Empire'. It is an absolutely exceptional read” ([40:54]).

---

Notable Quotes

• Dalrymple ([02:34]): “Cromwell dies of malaria, actually, in 1659.”
• Dalrymple ([04:16]): “We don't know where the head is.”
• Dalrymple ([07:06]): “Ireland is starting economically to prosper on the back of English colonial expansionists.”
• Dalrymple ([08:37]): “His brother, the Duke of York, openly converts to Catholicism.”
• Dalrymple ([21:30]): “William of Orange was born in 1650... He's a great proponent of religious toleration.”
• Dalrymple ([30:40]): “William sends his men north... he entraps them. They can't get across the river, so they're overwhelmed.”
• Dalrymple ([37:12]): “The Battle of the Boyne is seen as the moment the Protestant ascendancy is solidified.”
• Dalrymple ([38:51]): “It's about bowing to the past without being bound by it.”
• Dalrymple ([40:32]): “Key is it happens by the ballot box and not by the bayonet.”

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Looking Ahead

In the closing moments, Dalrymple teases the next episode, which will explore the interconnected colonial experiences of Ireland and India, promising to unravel surprising parallels and shared histories. Listeners are encouraged to continue the journey through empire’s legacy with the next installment.

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Recommendation:
For a comprehensive exploration of Ireland’s role in empire and the Battle of the Boyne’s lasting impact, Jane Almayer’s “Making Empire: Ireland, Imperialism and the Early Modern World” is a highly recommended read.

Transcript

[Anita Anand]

If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to empire [e-mail].

[William Dalrymple]

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[Jane Almayer]

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[William Dalrymple]

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[Jane Almayer]

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[William Dalrymple]

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[Jane Almayer]

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[Jane Almayer]

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[William Dalrymple]

Ba ba ba ba ba.

Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Anand and me, William Dalrymple. We are joined once more by Jane Almayer, author of Making Empire the most.

[Anita Anand]

Patient woman on the planet.

[William Dalrymple]

You said that last time. Really testing her.

[Anita Anand]

She's patient last time.

[William Dalrymple]

Can I just tell her this marvellous book, and if you're interested in what we're talking about, it is all contained in this magnificent tome that Jane has written, Jane Ormeyer's Making Empire, Ireland, Imperialism and the Early Modern World. In the last episode, we really spent a lot of time talking about Cromwell and the two decades of horror that Irish people go through. Can we just talk about how it ends? Because it's sort of 10 years after the conquest of Ireland that, you know, Oliver Cromwell is no more. But it is a quite grisly end to his saga as well. Tell us about that.

Well, Cromwell dies of malaria, actually, in 1659. And.

[Anita Anand]

Malaria. Is that the kind of the malarial swamps of Cambridge or Cambridge.

[William Dalrymple]

Exactly.

They had them, yeah, in Kent and in Cambridge there was lots of malaria. Yeah, absolutely. Do go on.

[Anita Anand]

Shh, shh.

[William Dalrymple]

Shut up. Let her talk.

Go on. And his son, who's known to history as Tumbledown Dick, succeeds him. Now, he doesn't last for very long. And then we see the army, basically.

[Anita Anand]

I don't think you get away with that brief, but Tumbledown Dick, why?

[William Dalrymple]

Well, just because he was such a disaster. I mean. I mean, and it wasn't supposed to be a dynasty, the Cromwell dynasty, but still, the son succeeds, Cromwell doesn't last. The army moves in, restores the Stuart dynasty. Charles II, whose father, Charles I, has been executed in 1649. He's been in the continent, basically, in exile for the 1650s. He's brought back, and when he comes back, they make a point of. Of basically digging Cromwell up. Cromwell was buried in Westminster Abbey. He's dug up and his body is just scattered, we don't know. But his head allegedly ends up in Cambridge, in Sydney Sussex College, but apparently it's been moved. Anita tells me.

Yes, well, I sort of mentioned this in the last episode, that Huntington, which was his constituency, also John Major's constituency, you know, they have a museum and they very proudly have an exhibition. And I thought they had his head, but I have subsequently looked it up and I don't want to give you hashtag fake news. It's a death mask of the head, which was taken from the dismembered head, which is now in Huntington's Museum, and it will be on display till the 30th of March. The death mask.

[Anita Anand]

Where's the head? We still haven't found where the head.

[William Dalrymple]

We don't know where the head. We don't know where the head is.

[Anita Anand]

So there was a story that it ended up. Certainly the body, the trunk ended up in my local parish church in Chiswick in London, in St Nicholas.

[William Dalrymple]

I think it was all cut up, William.

I don't think they would have had.

[Anita Anand]

The Ciceros lived in Chiswick, which is why the trunk ended up in the burial. Buried secretly in the crypt of St Nicholas in Chiswick. That's the story.

[William Dalrymple]

So, I mean, it's interesting you say that it was because they didn't want a place of worship for Cromwell. What I had heard from my less than reputable sources was that Charles II was so angry with him that he wanted to hang him and he couldn't hang him because he was dead, so he could only sort of, like, desecrate the body.

No, that's true as well.

That's the best that he could do.

Yeah, that's also true.

There we go. My sources. You can chat to me again in the pub. I will Believe everything you say, as usual. Okay, now this is 1659, the year after Cromwell well's body goes northwest and south and east. We should talk about this thing that I did say was on everybody's iPhone. And since then we've done an experiment among our own team, some people's iPhone. 12 July, which is marked as Battle of the Boy.

[Anita Anand]

There is a sectarian bias in iPhone somewhere. Catholic iPhones are different from Protestant iPhones.

[William Dalrymple]

Can I just say, it is interesting that some of ours have it and some of ours do not have it. But it is a national holiday, a national bank holiday in Northern Ireland to commemorate the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. And that is really what is going to lead us in conversation today.

[Anita Anand]

So, Jane, lead us forward from the Restoration. Charles II arrives back, tumbledown. Dick is dispatched off somewhere. What happens next as far as Ireland is concerned?

[William Dalrymple]

Well, the King is restored to the throne of his three kingdoms of England, Ireland and Scotland. And the Irish are delighted because they think, oh, my goodness, we've been loyal to the King during the civil war, it's time to get our lands back. So you have this very complicated in Ireland, it becomes then a very complicated situation around the land settlement because the Cromwellians, the adventurers, the soldiers who have got land in Ireland are now very well entrenched and Charles II really can't afford to alienate them. He needs their support in order to govern effectively. But we have all these Catholics who are feeling, hang on, we supported you loyally during the 1650s, we want our lands back. So it ends up being all very, very tense and of course, a lot of conniving and toing and froing and bribery and corruption. Eventually there is a land settlement worked out. Nobody's happy, but. But we find our friend, the Duke of Ormond comes back and by and large, during the period between 1660s, 1670s, Ireland really does very well. We see Dublin becoming that second city.

[Anita Anand]

Of empire, growing suddenly, very quickly now.

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah, suddenly, very quickly. During the 1650s, we had something called the Navigation act put in place, which helps to create a servient economy in Ireland. But it also, then, if you want, drives the provisioning trade. So Ireland is starting economically to prosper on the back of English colonial expansionists.

[Anita Anand]

Exporting Irish butter for the first time.

[William Dalrymple]

Of course, butter, but also salt beef, salt pork. Ireland basically is provisioning the Caribbean. It's hugely important. And later, of course, line becomes important as well. So it's this story in Ireland of just drawing breath, trying to recalibrate the trauma of the 1640s, the population starts to grow again. We see continued colonial immigration into Ireland. Some of these colonists also then are using Ireland as a staging post as they go on into the Atlantic world, especially the Ulster Scots as we know them. And by and large, it's a pretty peaceful period.

[Anita Anand]

And profit prosperous and prosperous after catastrophic time in the previous 20 years.

[William Dalrymple]

And of course, William Charles II is well disposed to Catholics. He himself, we know, secretly converts, but he's, you know, he's a practicing Anglican, but very well disposed to Catholicism.

Oh, and you said we know he secretly converts. Tell us more about that. I mean, that's quite the drop in. Tell us more about that.

Well, at the Treaty of Dover, I mean, he shows, you know, basically I'm a Catholic, but for political reasons I have to be Anglican. So that's just a pragmatic thing on his part. However, his brother, who's the Duke of York, openly converts to Catholicism.

[Anita Anand]

We've met him before, I think, in the history of the Royal Africa Company getting involved in slaving in guinea and that whole terrible saga, isn't it?

[William Dalrymple]

His letters are burnt into the chests of people who are enslaved and traded like commodities.

[Anita Anand]

It's his initial.

[William Dalrymple]

So all I'm trying to say here is the Stuarts are very well disposed to Catholicism, so it's practice, it's no longer driven underground. And Catholics feel that at long last, you know, they're going to be able to go back to a golden era where they could worship freely. And we see this particularly with the accession of James in 1685, when Charles II dies.

So he exceeds. I mean, just we have to say why he exceeds. He exceeds because Charles II dies and that's it. The succession passes on. Do we know how Charles II died? Was he an old man when he dies or natural cause of death?

I think he dies of mercury poisoning. His bedroom is over. He has a laboratory and basically, you know, he's doing all these sorts of experiments and he's exposed to mercury. I don't actually know that's the theory. But Charles ii, of course, has no legitimate male heirs. So, I mean, he's got an illegitimate son, the Duke of Monmouth, but no legitimate ones. So his brother then becomes his heir and that's all fin until the brother has a son. And it becomes very clear that it's going to be a Catholic succession, and that's when things start to get very, very difficult indeed.

[Anita Anand]

And is that Bonnie Prince Charlie?

[William Dalrymple]

That's Bonnie Prince Charlie, yes. So, yeah, that's the son that Mary of Modena has goes on to be.

[Anita Anand]

James iii, who we've also met in our Scottish episodes in Culloden and all those stories. So James II is now a problem for Protestants because there's going to be a Catholic succession. What happens?

[William Dalrymple]

Well, basically, happy days in Ireland. They're delighted because they think, you know, we're going to have a Catholic king and the whole Catholic order is going to be re established. The English Parliament is not so happy and here we have effectively they dethrone him and they invite his nephew. Now this is where it gets a bit complicated because his nephew is also his son in law, a man called William of Orange. They invite him to basically take the English throne and he duly arrives in England in what in England is known as the Glorious Revolution. There's nothing glorious about it at all in an Irish or Scottish context, but we see this sort of almost peaceful handover of James fleeing to the continent, William coming into England.

[Anita Anand]

Now, Anita will be very delighted to discover there's a piece of my family history here. We haven't had many of us family in the pond for a bit, but this one is a cracker because on board the ship in the Glorious Revolution is not only William of Oranges but his alleged boyfriend, who's called Arnold Hughes Keppel, who is my direct great, great, great, great, great grandfather.

[William Dalrymple]

Oh, you and the Keppels. That's right. You're all the same clan. Yeah.

[Anita Anand]

And if you go to Hampton Court, there is a passage from William of Orange's bedroom to Arnold Youth Keppel's bedroom. And we will say no more on this matter. But it's an unprove. But certainly in the family, it's always remembered that this was his, shall we say, his role at court.

[William Dalrymple]

So, I mean, describe your Keppel.

[Anita Anand]

What was your. Well, good enough. In the recent rehanging of the National Portrait Gallery, an incredibly beautiful portrait of Arnold Hughes Keppel turned up and it's now in the rehang. And he's a rather beautiful boy.

[William Dalrymple]

He does look quite sulky. Yes, I do. Yeah, he's good looking. He's got great features. He's got great features. But he does look like he's just pissed off. I might say.

He had to work hard.

He was like, he just looks like, you know, you just told him he's got to do the laundry or the washing up. Not really. That's the look on his face.

Yeah. Well, I'm glad William mentioned this, but it's probably just worth noting that obviously this is contested.

[Anita Anand]

Kate's the most male for this episode.

[William Dalrymple]

And that William. And listen, we may come back to. We talk about William, but just to be very clear, he could be bisexual because he clearly has relations with his wife Mary and she suffers from a number of miscarriages. But certainly if you talk to Orange men or members of the lawyers community, they will completely reject any suggestion that he was homosexual. And when this was raised, the late Ian Paisley, who led the Paisley Against Sodomy campaign. Now this is, remember, homosexuality, male homosexuality was illegal in Northern Ireland. I think it was 1982. I mean, paisley would have condemned you from the pulpit for uttering such words. Dalrymple.

It's a political. It's one of those political football. Again, you know, this is propaganda from the Catholics. It's never true. You're just trying to do them down. Gotcha. One person who I'd really like to bring into the conversation now is the Earl of Tyrconnell, who is going to be quite an important character in this episode. Can you tell us about Richard Talbot, otherwise known as the Earl of Tyrconnell?

Oh, Tyrconnell's a fascinating character. He comes from sort of a very well off gentry family, County Kildare. Catholic. His brothers are achievers. One brother, Peter, goes on to be the Archbishop, Catholic Archbishop of Dublin. But Tyrconnell or Talbot, goes off to serve in Europe, the European armies. And that's where he meets Charles II and his brother James, Duke of York. And he meets them because he volunteers to go to England to assassinate Oliver Cromwell.

[Anita Anand]

Oh, really?

[William Dalrymple]

Now that obviously doesn't succeed, clearly.

What year does he try and bump him off in?

1655.

[Anita Anand]

Is there an attempt?

[William Dalrymple]

There is an attempt. Attempt. It fails and he manages to escape.

[Anita Anand]

What method do they use?

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah, good question. I don't know that maybe somebody listening will be able to tell us. I just don't know. But he's actually captured, but he manages to escape back to the continent and that leads to a lot of rumor about whether or not he's done a deal with the Cromwellians or something, but he clearly hasn't. But it's interesting because at that point he and James become extremely close friends. And you must remember that this is now the 1650s. These men were all sort of born in the early 1630s, so they're sort of in their prime. And one of Talbot's jobs, or Tyconnell's jobs is to be minder of James mistresses. So he becomes a very sort of.

Hang on, hang on, hang on a minute. Keeper of the Mistresses something that he puts on. He puts this on a business card or a cd?

I don't think so.

It's not, is it? Right. Okay.

It just shows you how close that relationship is between James and Tyrconnell.

Okay. And Tyrconnell is going to be important to our story. Why? Because sort of, you know, we've got Will back. Tyconnell is clearly a Catholic. Tacconnell has, you know, Catholic sympathies. And it's at this time when, you know, they're thinking, this is a brave new world, Catholics can come out of the shadows. They have a chance of re establishing themselves. And then William is chosen by Parliament because William is a Protestant and he won't rock the boat. So what does that do to people like Tyrconnell?

Well, what Tyrconnell does is he hates the Duke of Ormond, so he and Ormond are constantly fighting. But he manages to secure influence at court. And thanks to his relationship with particularly James, he's able to get influence back in Ireland. And really, from the mid-1680s, when James becomes king, we see Tyrconnell then recatholicizing Ireland. So in other words, he purges the Irish army and gets rid of the Protestants and only then has a Catholic.

How does he do that?

He literally fires them. He goes in and gets rid of them and just fires them. And he replaces them with Catholic soldiers and particularly officers. But it's much more than that, Anita. He goes in and he tries to, if you want, replace the JPs, the sheriffs, the judiciary, to get rid of the Protestants and replace them with Catholics. So that is extremely effective. And he does it in a very short period of time. He sort of clears out the administration, clears out the army, and creates a Catholic bureaucracy and a military machine.

But he's done this, though, with Jewish II on his shoulder when James ii. So, I mean, he couldn't possibly do this. There'll be so much grievance back in Westminster about this. As long as James II is sitting on his shoulder, as long as he's looking after him, he can do all of these things. But once James is gone, then what happens to Conal?

Well, true. Connell obviously continues as the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. And then James himself, remember, he's left England, he's gone to France. And it's really important to remember the wider picture here because Louis xiv, that great French absolute monarch, the Sun King, the Sun King, Versailles and all of that, he offers refuge to James. And then James leaves France and arrives in Ireland to be with Tyrconnell, because he wants Tyrconnell basically to raise an Irish army that's going to allow him then to regain his English throne. So Ireland at this point becomes that back door again into England.

[Anita Anand]

So just again, to get the timing completely clear, how long is James II in France before he sails for Ireland and reopens hostilities?

[William Dalrymple]

Well, it's not very long. He leaves England 1688, and he's back in Ireland in March 1689. So it's a matter of months.

[Anita Anand]

So he goes there, basically. He's not. I mean, we have this image sometimes of the Stuarts being these slightly luxurious, slow moving figures. He's actually straight on it. He goes to France, he raises an army and he's back into Ireland and back in play.

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Louis xiv. Why is Louis XIV doing this? Because it's all about world domination as far as the French are concerned. And Louis XIV hates William of Orange because obviously he's been the ruler of the Netherlands and has been his big block to power.

[Anita Anand]

So we have to take a break in a minute now, but what is happening, I think is we're seeing Ireland suddenly finding itself improbably at the center of European geopolitics. The Sun King now has a new queen on his chessboard and he's moving straight into the middle of the board and challenging William of Orange who seized the crown of England, Scotland and Ireland. And we're suddenly now going to see Ireland at the center of everything.

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[William Dalrymple]

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[Anita Anand]

Welcome back. So we didn't create a complete pen portrait of William of Orange and the so called glorious revolution at the last half. So, Jane, tell us, give us a complete picture of this man who incredibly quickly has taken the throne of England, but not yet Ireland.

[William Dalrymple]

So William of Orange was born in 1650. His mother is Mary Stuart, who is the sister of Charles II and James ii. He's grown up in the Netherlands. He's a fluent Dutch speaker, fluent in French, fluent in German. The one language he can't really speak is English. Physically, he's quite a small figure. He's about 5 foot 6. He's slightly got a hunch back and a hooked nose. As a child he suffered from smallpox which left him with an asthmatic wheeze and a very mottled complexion. And then he has this effeminate carriage. And we've talked about his sexuality with.

[Anita Anand]

My great, great, great, great, great grandfather.

[William Dalrymple]

Yes, allegedly. Allegedly.

Allegedly.

What I'm saying, he's not that big strapping hero that we see on a white horse as he would be portrayed by many. But he's also a great proponent of religious toleration. He's come from the Netherlands, but also he's played this hugely important role of leading this anti European, if you want, coalition against the great French king Louis XIV who has set out to sort of rule Europe. So he's very, very important. And he's been very frustrated by the fact that his uncles, James and before him Char Charles, have been part of the French coalition and have not supported the Netherlands.

Is he super religious? I mean, is religion a foundation of his personality and drive?

No, not really at all, Anita. He's a great proponent of religious toleration. This is a characteristic actually of the Dutch in this period. Unlike the other nations, many of the other nations in Europe where it was if you want one rule or one faith, he actually encourages religious diversity.

[Anita Anand]

So, Jane, in March 1689, James II arrives with the whole French army in Kinsale. The Irish Catholics welcome him with full support. And this is a major problem for William. He's barely been, what, six months in this strange country in England, he's had quite an easy time without any major battle to fight in 1680. 8. But. But now, suddenly, the French are in play and all eyes are moving to Kinsale and to Ireland.

[William Dalrymple]

So basically, at this point, when James arrives in Kinsale, actually the Jacobites, as they are now being called, just to.

[Anita Anand]

Explain that Jacob being the Latin for James, for James.

[William Dalrymple]

So that's why we call them Jacobites, control all of the country except for two really important places. One is Enniskillen, but the other is Derry. I'm just gonna do a little bit of a. Because Derry is, obviously, we've talked about it, fortified city set up by the London Company in the early decade of the 17th century. And when the Jacobite forces come to try and take Derry, there's a siege. In 1689, the population of Derry, under normal circumstances, would have been about 1,000. During the siege, that population is inflated, so we will have maybe as many as 8,000. We don't really know people who are now beginning, obviously, the siege begins. It lasts for 101 days. So people are starving.

[Anita Anand]

There is a famous price list, isn't there, of dogs, cats, rats and mice, and a quarter of a dog fattened by eating the bodies of the slain Irish, costs five shillings and five pence.

[William Dalrymple]

I mean, it's extraordinarily grim. And about a third of the population of the city dies. Half of the military garrison, they shut the doors. The apprentice boys shut the doors and say, no surrender. We're not giving you the city. And it's a siege that goes on and lasts 105 days. It's also a siege that is commemorated every August. And it's where we get this phrase, no surrender from, which is still a.

[Anita Anand]

Great loyalist chant even today.

[William Dalrymple]

Even today. Exactly, William. But what's so interesting as well is how that no surrender goes through time. And we have our friend the Lawrence brothers, Henry Lawrence, in India in 1857 when he dies. And remember, he's of Derry provenance, allegedly, when he dies, his dying words are no surrender. So, I mean, and Paisley would have used that no surrender very regularly during the Troubles.

[Anita Anand]

But to take us back, the news has arrived that not only has James landed in Kinsale, but he's brought French troops with him, and, crucially, money and supplies of war. So Parliament, this huge alarm in London, one MP stands up and says, if Ireland should be lost, England will follow. And they immediately voted in £700,000. And then William steps up and announced that he's going in person to Ireland. And Parliament votes an even larger sum of £1.2 million, which in those days must be the most colossal fortune thus.

[William Dalrymple]

And so William arrives in Carrickfergus in June 1690. His army is, you know, 36,000 well armed veteran troops. Interestingly, Williams, he's got Danish troops, Dutch troops, French Huguenots, English and Irish Protestants. Whereas James's army, obviously you've got French troops as part of James's army, but mostly then it's Irish Catholics. So it's these very international forces that face each other.

[Anita Anand]

The mercenary Irish, who'd been fighting in a variety of Catholic courts, now rallied to the Stuart court. So this is a big deal. This is the crisis which has been coming ever since the whole Stuart issue was apparently solved at the so called Glorious Revolution.

[William Dalrymple]

And do you see sort of, you know, what do you see among the general population? Do you see them ral rallying to one flag or t'other or just thinking, oh God, we are stuck in this again. We thought this was over.

Exactly. It's part two of what they've had in the 1640s and 50s all over again. So what happens is the Irish Catholics rally, of course, to the cause of James ii. Irish Protestants then rally to the cause of William of Orange. So it becomes a deeply sectarian conflict.

[Anita Anand]

The War of Two Kings.

[William Dalrymple]

Well, actually it's the War of Three Kings in a sense, because I think Louis XIV is the third king, you know, and you need to see what's going on in Ireland as almost a sideshow of what's going on in the continent. And remember that just going back to William of Orange, there are no papal troops who are actually sent, but the Pope does send subsidies to William of Orange, which is something again, isn't always acknowledged.

[Anita Anand]

Hang on, this can't be right. The Pope sends subsidies to William of Orange.

[William Dalrymple]

To William of Orange, who's fighting Catholics.

Why?

Yes, why?

Because he sees it as part of this anti French coalition on the continent. And this is where it just becomes so complicated.

[Anita Anand]

So in Ireland it's seen as a Catholic Protestant thing, but in Europe it's seen as part of European geopolitics.

[William Dalrymple]

Exactly. And that's why the Pope is supporting William of Orange. As I say, he doesn't send troops, he just sends subsidies.

[Anita Anand]

So I've got some figures for the kind of the amount of war materials arriving in Ireland at this point. In 1689, for example, the French land 16,000 sabres, 3,000 swords, 5,000 muskets, a thousand pair of pistols, 500 carbines, 500 flintlocks and 100,000 rounds of ammunition. 1690, the yet more fleets arriving with military experts as well as materials, generals, engineers, artillerymen, commissars. So suddenly, Ireland is filling with the kind of most enormous armies and war spies. The whole of the European military world has landed in Ireland, and they're ready now for the big battle, which we will come to call the Battle of the Boyne.

[William Dalrymple]

So this battle, first thing to point out, is fought on the 1st of July, not the 12th of July.

Interesting.

We'll come to Aughram in a moment, which is for.

Because just to remind people, the 12th of July is the thing that appears on some people's iPhones as a bag holiday for Northern Ireland. Right, okay. As you were. So it is the first of July. Important.

Yeah. And actually, the battle itself, despite its historic importance, if you want social memory, itself, was a bit of a disappointing affair in that James, particularly now he's an old man, he's 57, he's traumatized.

[Anita Anand]

And he's not a general, is he?

[William Dalrymple]

He's not a military man. Tyrconnell and somebody called Patrick Sarsfield are his generals. But he's not giving, if you want the Jacobite forces the leadership that they need. Whereas William is coming in and he's much younger. He's obviously a seasoned warrior, and the Jacobites perform poorly and ob. Lose the battle. And even though, as I say, this battle has this iconic status, the battle itself isn't a particularly interesting affair. What's important about it is what happens after it.

[Anita Anand]

Is it, though, that one side crossed the river? I mean, do you have the Williamite forces crossing the river and removing the Catholic Irish from their redoubts, or what happens in the battle?

[William Dalrymple]

What William does is it's in the Boyne Valley and he sends his men north. And so the Jacobites think that he's leaving and he entraps them. And then they can't get across the river, given the nature of the terrain. And so, as a result, you know, they're overwhelmed very quickly, and about 2,000 people die, two thirds of whom are Jacobites.

So straight after the defeat of James, I mean, what happens? Does he stick around or does he just peg it because there's no hope for him?

Well, obviously now James has lost Dublin, and Dublin is the administrative, economic, cultural capital of the country. And so. So he then decides to go back to France to try and sort of rally Louis for more support. And this goes down, like, very poorly with his followers. This is when he ends up sort of being very negatively represented in the Irish language Gaelic sources where they call him, you know, James the Shite.

Yes. So James the shite, or James the Coward, or Seamus Anshake, as the poem is in Gaelic. Shall I read a bit of it to you, Seamus? As how you fled across the Boyne Valley as the green bless Seamus Ashaka as we lay here, martyrs for falsehoods, foddered for your fear. Seamus Ashaka, purveyor of the charm, promise of a new crown, a strong Papist arm, Seamus Ashaka of the Stuart shame As the orange fury ignited a flame. This is a poem of the time, of the period, or one that's written sort of more recently. Jane. And how many people in Ireland know this Seamus Ashake?

It was written at the time, but over time, obviously, the Irish developed huge sympathy for James. But it was just in the immediate aftermath, he retreats, he goes back down to Duncannon and goes back to the continent. And the Irish basically feel they've been abandoned by the king. And that's where we see these sort of negative representations of him. Now, later on, that does change, and he becomes this sort of symbol of the bad things that have happened to.

[Anita Anand]

Ireland, not unlike unlike what happens to Scotland after Bonnie Prince Charlie flees after Culloden a generation later, that the Scots get it in the neck while the Stuart can escape his men on the ground get it in the neck and suffer the retribution which follows.

[William Dalrymple]

But they write Speed Bonnie Boat for him. They don't do. That's a bit later in the Parlour soul.

[Anita Anand]

But it's not the end of the resistance, is it, Jay? Because as you've been saying, there's a more. The bigger the. And often more in many ways more important battle that none of us ever heard of.

[William Dalrymple]

So what happens is now the Williamite forces have control over Dublin and the Jacobite forces are on the back foot and they basically drive them to the West. And probably the most significant and important battle was in 1691. It's the battle of Aughrim. And this is the battle that was fought on the 12th of July, 1691. It's a decisive victory for the Williamite forces. Now Aughram is in County Galway, so we've moved geographically, as I say, into the west. And it was at this. It's a decisive defeat. And Tyrconnell now is driven back into the city of Limerick. Now he dies actually, in Limerick, but at that point, the Jacobites decide that they're going to make a peace with the Williamites, and that's why we have the Treaty of Limerick, which is also known as the Broken Treaty, because The Williamites actually give the Jacobite quite generous terms. Concessions in the. Yeah, terms. But the Protestant community in Ireland says, oh, no, no, no, no, William, we're not having this. Now is our opportunity to actually ensure that the Catholic population is never given an opportunity to rise again. We thought we'd done our business in 1650. Clearly not. And that's why it's known as the Broken Treaty. So, for example, the first civil article stipulates a degree of religious toleration for the Catholic, which William, of course, is happy to agree to, but the Protestants in Ireland are not willing for that to happen. But also the second article related to the conditions that the officers and soldiers surrendered and they were supposed to be given some protection over their estates. And again, the Parliament in Dublin isn't willing to tolerate that. And then on the foot of this, we see a Russian draft of penal or anti Catholic legislation being put into force that really ensures that the Catholic population is reduced to political total subservience. So things like, you know, Catholics can't own a horse or own a gun, all Catholic priests are banished. Catholics aren't allowed to leave a farm to their eldest son if he's a Catholic. They have to subdivide it. So, I mean, it's a very restrictive legislation brought in now to control the Catholic population.

[Anita Anand]

And of course, they can't go to university. There's educational restrictions.

[William Dalrymple]

No, no, there's huge restrictions. Everything is restricted from this point on, William. And it's also, at this point, so 7,000 men die at Aughram. It's really the cream of the Irish Catholic population. And those that survive, obviously the terms of the treaty are broken. So what they do instead is they go in their thumb, thousands to serve in the armies, particularly of France. And these are the Wild Geese, as we know themselves.

[Anita Anand]

And they pop up all over the place, from Ireland to Jacobite to India. Exactly. And we see fantastic French Jacobite generals who turn out to be Irish in their ancestry on the beaches of Pondicherry. And this sort of thing.

[William Dalrymple]

Well, it's very interesting that you should mention India, because that is going to be the next episode that we have, because we're going to talk about Ireland and India. The parallels and the intertwined of the colonial experience between the two countries is often quite surprising. It is not exactly as you might expect, but what we've done today, Jane, we've sort of laid the roots of sectarianism that is going to dominate for the next 300 years in Protestant memory.

[Anita Anand]

As we've seen the Battle of the Boyne is seen as the kind of the moment that the Protestant ascendancy is solidified and made concrete. You think that that is a correct assessment? This really is the important moment that it's remembered in posterity?

[William Dalrymple]

Oh, completely. There's a couple of iconic moments. One is the Battle of the Boyne, the other is the Siege of Derry, in terms of that Protestant identity. But remember, Cromwell has. And the memory of Cromwell has profoundly impacted Catholic identity. So these historic moments have influenced our DNA here in Ireland, both in terms of Protestants and of Catholics. And I think now, as Ireland looks to a new phase of our history, it's very important how we deal with these very contested moments in the past. It's about bowing to the past without being bound by it. And I think that a lot of work has gone in, not just by the Irish government, but also by the British government in how. And of course, colleagues, particularly in Northern Ireland, to think about how we can create a shared history that acknowledges, in a very respectful way, where we differ. And I'll give you a single example of it. There is a commemoration centre at Old Bridge, which is the site of the Battle of the Boyne. And the two key figures behind that. One was a man called Bertie Ahern, who was a former Prime Minister, Taoiseach of Ireland. The other was a man called Ian Paisley. And Ian Paisley, of course, was the leader of the dup, the Democratic Unionist Party, and would have been somebody who would have got up in the European Parliament and called Old Red Sox. And I mean, he was very, very, very anti Catholic in some of his rhetoric during the Troubles. But the two of them came together to recognize the importance of the Boyne to both traditions. And the Boyne, of course, is just symbolic of all of these other very important historical moments in the 17th century that we've been talking about.

[Anita Anand]

And just to clarify, Jane, the Orangeman that we see marching at, the marching season each year on our television screens and every July is marked by pictures of these guys with their fifes and drums and their bowler hats and their orange sashes heading down the streets of Derry and so on.

[William Dalrymple]

And the aprons, I guess the aprons are the apprentice aprons. Are they reminiscent of that?

[Anita Anand]

This is all commemorating this.

[William Dalrymple]

It's all commemorating this. But what it's also commemorating is the subjection of the Catholic population. And that Lambeg drum is very loud and very threatening. And the question is, how can we take these sorts of ceremonies that are so important to some communities and so threatening to others, and how can we actually find A space that they can both exist side by side peacefully.

And finally, I mean, are you optimistic about the future with both of those realities that you've just told us about? How optimistic are you?

Do you know, I think Ireland is a really good example of a, a two state solution. How we've dealt with partition and hopefully might be an exemplar to others, although it's not looking too good at the moment in terms of the Middle east or of the Indian subcontinent. You know, it's hundreds of years we have and then I personally believe that we will see the, if you want a shared island into the future. And I think Brexit was a body blow to Anglo Irish relations because I think that would have happened quite naturally in the context of the European Union. But I still think it's a very important moment that, that will just in the course of time. What's key is it happens by the ballot box and not by the bayonet or the armalite. And I think that actually we're in that space.

Well, Jane, you're going to be with us for the next episode as well. We're delighted about that. Jane Almayer, do read her fantastic book Making Empire. It is an absolutely exceptional read, full of the kind of things that you have heard today. And remember the next episode we are going to talk about India and Ireland and the crossovers between till the next time we meet. It is goodbye from me, Anita Anand.

[Anita Anand]

Goodbye from me, William Duranpool.

[Al Murray]

Hi there, I'm Al Murray, co host of we have ways of making you talk, the world's premier Second World War history podcast from Goal Hanger.

[Jane Almayer]

And I'm James Holland, best selling World War II historian. And together we tell the best stories from the war. This time we're doing a deep dive into the last major attack by the Nazis on the west, the Battle of the Bulge.

[Al Murray]

And what's so fascinating about this story is we've been able to show how quite a lot of the popular history about this battle is kind of the wrong way around, isn't it, Jim? The whole thing is a disaster from the start. Even Hitler's plans for the attack are insane and divorced from reality.

[Jane Almayer]

Well, you're so right. But what we can do is celebrate this as an American success story for the ages. From their generals at the top to the gis on the front line. Full of gumption and grit, the bold should be remembered as a great victory for the usa.

[Al Murray]

And if this sounds good to you, we've got a short taste for you here. Search we have Ways, wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks. Yeah.

[Jane Almayer]

Anyway, so who is Ober van Furo? Jochim Piper.

[Al Murray]

But I see his jaunty hat and I just think skull and crossbones. Well, I see his reputation and I think, well, you know, you might be a handsome devil, but the emphasis is on the devil bit rather than.

[Jane Almayer]

Anyway, be that is May. He's 29 years old and he's got, he's got a very interesting career really because he comes from a, you know, a pretty right wing family, let's face it. He's joined the SS at a pretty early, early stage. He's very. International socialism. He's also been Himmler's adjutant.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Jane Almayer]

He took a little bit of time off in the summer of 1940 to go and fight with, with the 1st Waffen SS Panzer Division.

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah.

[Jane Almayer]

Did pretty well. Went back to being Himmler's adjutant, then went off and commanded troops in the Eastern Front. Rose up to be a pretty young regimental commander. I mean, there's not many people which is sort of. Colonel.

[William Dalrymple]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

I, you see, what must it have been like if you're in. If Himmler's adjutant turns up and he's been posted to you as an officer, do you think? Well, he only got that job because of, because of his connections. For Piper, it must have been always, he's always having to prove himself, surely, because he's, he has turned up. He's not worked his way through the ranks of the Waffen ss. He's dolloped in having come from head office, as it were. It must be a peculiar position to be in. Right. He's got lots to prove. Right. That's what I'm saying.

[Jane Almayer]

Yeah. And he's, he's, he's from a sort of middle class background as well.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Jane Almayer]

But he's got an older brother who's had mental illness and attempted suicide and never, never really recovers and actually has died in of TB eventually in 1942. He's got a younger brother called Horst who's also joined the SS&TOTEN cop Verbanda and died in a never really properly explained accident in Poland in 1941.

[Al Murray]

Right.

[Jane Almayer]

Piper gains a sort of growing reputation on the Eastern Front for being kind of very inspiring, fearless, you know, obviously courageous, you know, all the guys love him, all that kind of stuff. But he's also orders the entire, the destruction of entire village of Krasnaya Polyana in a kind of revenge killing by Russian partisans. Yeah. And his unit becomes known as the Blowtorch Battalion because of his Penchant for touching Russian villages. So he's got all the gongs. He's got Iron Cross, second Class, first Class Cross of Gold, not Knight's Cross. Did very well at Kursk briefly in Northern Italy, actually, then in Ukraine, then in Normandy. He suffers a nervous breakdown. Yeah. And he's relieved of his command on the 2nd of August. And he's hospitalized from September to October. So he's not in command during Operation Lutech. And then he rejoins 1st SS Panzer Regiment as its commander again in October 1944. It's really, really odd.

[Al Murray]

I mean, but isn't that interesting, though, because if you're a lancer, if you're an ordinary soldier, you're not allowed to have a nervous breakdown. You don't get hospitalized, you don't get time off. How you could interpret this is. This is a sort of Nazi princeling, isn't he? Is Himmler's adjutant. He's demonstrated the necessary Nazi zeal on the Eastern front and all this sort of stuff. It comes to Normandy where they. Where they're losing. Why else would he have a nervous breakdown? He's shown all the zeal and application in the Nazi manner up to this point, and they're losing, you know, and. Because he's a knob, you know, because he's well connected, he gets to be hospitalized. If he has a nervous breakdown, he isn't told like an ordinary German soldier. There's no such thing as computer combat fatigue, mate. Go back to work.

[Jane Almayer]

Yes. And it's a nervous breakdown, not combat fatigue.

[Al Murray]

Well, yes, of course, but.

[Jane Almayer]

But you know, what's the one SS soldier said of him? Piper was the most dynamic man I ever met. He just got things done.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Jane Almayer]

You get this image I have of him of having this kind of sort of slightly manic energy. Yeah, kind of. He's virulently National Socialist. He's got this great reputation. He's damned if anyone's going to tarnish it. You know, he's a. He's a driver, you know, all those things.

[Al Murray]

He's trying to make the will triumph, isn't he? He's working towards the Fuhrer. He's imbued with. He knows what' of him. Extreme violence and cruelty and pushing his men on. I mean, he's sort of. He's the Fuhrer Princip writ large, isn't he? As a. As an SS officer.

[Jane Almayer]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Which is why cruelty and extreme violence are bundled in to wherever he goes, basically.