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- [00:01]
William Duranpool
If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter. Sign up to empire club@www.empirepoduk.com. today at T Mobile I'm joined by a special co anchor.
- [00:23]
Anita Anand
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William Duranpool
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Dermot Ferrita
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William Duranpool
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William Duranpool
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Dermot Ferrita
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William Duranpool
Streaming versus the other big guys.
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Dermot Ferrita
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Anita Anand
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Dermot Ferrita
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Anita Anand
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Dermot Ferrita
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Anita Anand
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Anita Anand
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- [01:19]
Dermot Ferrita
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- [02:14]
Anita Anand
Hello and welcome to Empire with me Anita Arnand and me William Duranpool. Now, before we carry on with our Ireland series and thank you so much for all of your very kind comments. It's wonderful when you pick a subject that really resonates with listeners. So we know this one is so thank you for that. But let me tell you, for the next three episodes we're very lucky to have a rather outstanding guest. A brilliant historian of Ireland, Dermad Ferrita is with us, author of so many great books on the history of Ireland, including a joint book with our previous guest, Colin Tobin, who we really enjoyed on the Famine. But two of his books are particularly relevant to the next few episodes. Between Two Hells, the Irish Civil War and and A Nation Not a Rabble, the Irish Revolution of 1913-1923. Welcome to you. Thank you so much for being with us.
- [03:03]
Dermot Ferrita
Absolute pleasure to be here.
- [03:05]
Anita Anand
I think I've already impressed you so much by saying, oh, lovely, lovely picture of Yates behind you. It's Beckett, you idiot. So, you know, we got off to a flying start, I have to admit.
- [03:14]
William Duranpool
I thought it was Trump at one point.
- [03:18]
Anita Anand
That would have been weird.
- [03:19]
William Duranpool
I didn't. Didn't voice it.
- [03:20]
Anita Anand
I think we should go to Spec Savers or any other optician. Others are available, but we are largely going to concentrating on the Easter Rising on this episode. And right at the last episode, we left Colm talking and it was very emotional, talking about the Great Famine.
- [03:37]
William Duranpool
I have to say I'm very glad not to have such a depressing subject this week. I find the reading, particularly reading Dermot's books on the Easter Rising and the Civil War, gripping. But I was so depressed by the Famine books. It was just such a bleak and terrible story.
- [03:52]
Dermot Ferrita
Well, there is a contemporary historian who, Carmichael Grother has done an awful lot of work on the economic consequences of the famine, but he also spoke not too long ago about the psychological consequences to this day. And the way he put it, as part of us still does not want to go there, which, of course you will both appreciate after hearing the enormity of its impact and the way it reverberates down to the generations. So there's still a degree of reticence, I suppose, about opening it up. So it's healthy to have done that.
- [04:22]
Anita Anand
And would it be correct to say that all of those feelings, all of those emotions, so much fresher then than today, sort of led to this bedrock of absolute defiance, saying, you know what? We're not going to live like this anymore. We're not going to let this happen again?
- [04:35]
Dermot Ferrita
Well, I mean, it's very important when you consider at the outset of the easter rising in 1916, the Declaration is that this rebellion is being fought in the name of the dead generations. And the dead generations, of course, invokes all of that difficult history that you're talking about, but also the history of exile, the sense that people have been banished, and of course, the link with emigration arising from the Famine era. And the building of that resentment, that sense of exile, and that sense, as well, of the British Empire not being called to account for the calamitous events of the 19th century. So there's an awful lot of history that reverberates for that 1916 generation. But, of course, you also have a wider European context there. We often talk about the generation of 1914 and what propelled them and the degree to which they felt that the established order was absolutely rotten and they wanted to cleanse it and they wanted to do dramatic things in order to try and create that change. And, you know, the Irish 1916 story is very much a part of that wider European impulse. And you can trace it through the poetry sometimes as well, because we often think about the 1916 leaders as having been immersed in cultural revival, in the promotion of language of Irish antiquity. Many of them wrote poems. Some of the poems are awful now, it has to be said, but there was an awful lot of bad poetry being written in Europe between 1914 and 1918. But it does, I suppose, illuminate that degree to which they feel they are attached to a higher purpose.
- [06:12]
Anita Anand
Before we get to the Longfella and the big fella, as Eamonn de Valera and Michael Collins were known as, you know, major characters in these three episodes that we're gonna be talking about. Can we talk about the bridging period between the famine and what took us to 1916? Because there were increasing cries for Home rule after that. One name that I feel we ought to mention is Charles Stuart Parnell, who did a lot to drive forward the agenda of, look, we will not live like this. Tell us a little bit about the man who. Who came so close but was actually ultimately thwarted by a sex scandal.
- [06:50]
Dermot Ferrita
Parnell's rise was remarkable because he would not have been seen as someone who was a natural leader. He was a substantial landowner in Wicklow in Ireland, and he was not an impressive parliamentary performer when he first came on the scene. But what Parnell did was he developed what we would now recognize as a modern political party. And the idea was that you would get an alliance of Irish MPs in Westminster who were broadly committed to the idea of Home rule, but that they would sit, act and vote in accordance with the instructions of the party leadership. And Parnell really grew into the role, firstly by making an impact by becoming a more confident speaker, but also by obstructing the business of the House of Commons to try and persuade them to turn their attention to Irish affairs. And he built very important alliances. Then, of course, with certain British politicians, including, most famously, the Prime Minister, William Gladstone. And the idea was to try and build a strong enough Irish party in Westminster to hold the balance of power, so that if you were holding the balance of power, the price of your support would be a British backing of Home rule. And that's where Parnell brought the Irish party to. And he was regarded as an extraordinary parliamentary performer, having obviously had very nervous beginnings. And William Gladstone referred him the most impressive people he had ever seen in the House of Commons. But as you mentioned, he was undone by his personal life, and his personal life involved him living with the wife of one of his party members, who subsequently became Parnell's wife. But in that Victorian climate, and given the influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland as well, this ruptured the Irish parliamentary party when the story broke and Parnell was still a young man. And he attempted to fight on, but he couldn't hold the party together. And ultimately it broke him. His political power, but also his health. And he died very young in 1891. And historians have often referred to the Parnell shaped hole that was left as a result, because he was a character who became iconic. He was regarded as the great champion of the people, despite his privileged background. And, of course, he had close alliances with those who were fighting campaigns in relation to land reform as well.
- [09:08]
William Duranpool
Derebet. One of the names that comes up at this time which has entered universal language is the boycott. Tell us about who ca Captain Boycott was.
- [09:16]
Dermot Ferrita
The revolution involves transferring that ownership of land from landlords to tenants. And, you know, that happens in the late 19th and the early 20th century. One of the tactics of those who orchestrated the land war was to boycott, to boycott those who were prepared to purchase land from which tenants had been unfairly evicted. And Captain Boycott was a land agent in Ireland at that time, and because of the controversy over the particular land that he was administering, he lent his name to what became this boycott description, Captain Boycott. So it was just one tactic in what was a wider land war orchestrated originally by the Land League. It originated in Mayo, the poorest county in Ireland, when it came to land and the poor quality of land.
- [10:05]
William Duranpool
Let's move from Parnell now on over the century into 1912 and the home rule crisis. Tell us about that. What is it that begins the march towards the Easter Rising?
- [10:18]
Dermot Ferrita
Well, when we talked about Parnell, I mean, his mission, obviously, is to achieve home rule for Ireland. There were home rule bills that were introduced by the British government in 1886 and again in 1893. They fail obviously, because the House of Lords is never going to contemplate acceptance of home rule for Ireland, even if the House of Commons is going to back it. So Parnell brings nationalist Ireland close to home rule, but he can't ultimately achieve it. What has changed by 1912 is that the House of Lords veto has gone removed.
- [10:49]
William Duranpool
By Lloyd George.
- [10:49]
Dermot Ferrita
By Lloyd George. And, you know, I mean, you had that whole controversy over the People's Budget and, you know, the Liberal experiments.
- [10:57]
Anita Anand
So for those who don't know, let's just get a little context to that. The Liberals were trying to put through a whole bunch of reforms that would have led to things like pensions. I mean, they were very socially progressive welfare reforms. And every time it would pass through the House of Commons, which has the electoral mandate in this country, if you vote, you know, your elected members go to the House of Commons wherever you live in the world, this is how it works here. But the House of Lords, which are sort of anointed peers, you know, who normally were at that time, very wealthy, very influential people, sometimes peers, whose grandfathers have been some great sheikhs in the past, and they may not be, but they still had a seat in the House of Lords at that time. The House of Lords could say no. And whatever the will of the elected representatives, they would say no. And it is this crisis, both Home Rule and the People's Budget, that, you know, you just can't get your legislation past these, you know, hoity toits that leads to the reform. And we don't have that anymore in this country. We can have the House of Lords delaying bills, but they can't, they can't stop it, they can't throw it out anymore. So it changed. I mean, this period of time is so important in British parliamentary democracy because it changes. And no longer. They can slow it down, but they can't stop the will of the people.
- [12:02]
Dermot Ferrita
And it's a huge advance in relation to that broader sense of what constitutes democracy. It's also a reminder in Ireland of the impact that British politics has on Ireland. I mean, you mentioned the budgetary decisions, the welfare provisions. I mean, the old age pension, for example, was a big, big story in Ireland when it was introduced in 1908, because Irish pensioners were going to benefit from that. And there were those within Nationalist Ireland who recognized that there were advantages to a close alliance with the Liberal Party because you could get housing reform and you could get land reform and you could get wider welfare provision. So there is a certain alliance there between the Liberal Party and what is now the reunited Irish Parliamentary Party under the leadership of John Redmond, because John Redmond becomes the leader in 1900, and in a sense, he is stepping into the shoes of Parnell. He's interested in working with the Liberals. And what happens by 1912 is that he has persuaded the British Liberals again to back Home Rule, but this time it looks like it is going to become a reality. And that provokes a ferocious response from those Unionists in Ireland, particularly centred in the north of Ireland in the Ulster Province of Ireland, who, of course, historically have a deep affinity with Britain and the British Empire. And they are absolutely adamant that they are not going to countenance this third Home Rule Bill as it is becoming a reality. And they mobilise an unprecedented opposition campaign which ultimately brings Ireland to the brink of civil war.
- [13:31]
William Duranpool
For those that are not aware of the big differences, can you paint a picture of the Unionist community at this period? What are they frightened of? Why does the idea of Home Rule in Ireland appall them? And what are their views about Catholic Ireland?
- [13:46]
Dermot Ferrita
I mean, obviously I mentioned the affinity with the British Empire. So, I mean, ideologically they would see themselves very much as a part of that United Kingdom, of that great empire, so they have that ideological affinity. Now, obviously, you can go back to the 17th century and the plantations and the reasons why Ulster had the particular character it did in terms of the people who were placed there at an earlier stage and the displacement of the natives. But, I mean, they do have that ideological positioning. They are also, of course, finding themselves, many of them, at odds with the dominant religion in Ireland, which is the Catholic religion. And if you look at the census returns for 1901 or 1911, you can see how southern Ireland was over 80% Catholic. So they fear that Home Rule will be Rome rule, that they will be dominated by a Catholic majority, which they will find, of course, obnoxious and offensive and will threaten their rights. As they see it, that part of Ireland is also more industrialized. You know, Ireland is overwhelmingly an agricultural and rural country, but Unionists are also populating parts of the north of Ireland that are more akin, I suppose, to the British industrial cities. You know, when we think of Belfast being an obvious example, so there are very obvious differences, but they also, of course, ultimately fear that the whole basis of their political and ideological identity will be swept away from them.
- [15:05]
William Duranpool
And tell us about their leaders. Tell us about Sir Edward Carson, the man who first came to prominence by demolishing poor Oscar Wilde in the. In the witness box.
- [15:14]
Dermot Ferrita
Well, yeah, Carson was a very. He was a Very effective lawyer and a very impressive performer and a renowned orator. What's interesting about the leadership of Unionism around this time, 1912 is that it has changed. Unionists historically had been led by the landed elite. Edward Saunderson would have been recognized as the the landed leader of Parliamentary unionism in the House of Commons representing the Irish Unionists. And he would have seen himself as an Irish Unionist. And indeed, Edward Carson was a Dubliner. And ultimately, I suppose it's ironic that he becomes associated with the cause of Ulster Unionism. So when does Irish Unionism become Ulster Unionism? With the threat of the third Home Rule Bill, they recognize that they need to concentrate their strength where they have the numbers. And in many respects that means leaving the Southern Unionists behind. And the Southern Unionists, of course, are in a quite small minority. But they want an effective campaign. And Edward Carson becomes the figurehead of that campaign. And there's an extraordinary response to Edward Carson's leadership because he is a ferocious speaker. He's able to galvanize people. He also works closely with those who are contemplating arming Unionists to resist Home Rule, should it be implemented. And, you know, in a similar way to Parnell, you could argue he has to be conscious of what he has created and the politics of brinkmanship. How far can he take this militancy?
- [16:42]
Anita Anand
Well, what he does, I mean, he introduces the language of warfare, that we are on the brink of war. And that is, you know, the kind of clarion call that really stirs the blood in the Unionists. I mean, just an extract from one of his parliamentary speeches is, I can imagine no length of resistance to which Ulster will not go, in which I should not be prepared to support them, and which would not be supported by the overwhelming majority of the British people. Carson's a fascinating character. I mean, if you look through Hansard, as I do as a nerd, you know, he's there all over in some of the most bombastic speeches about empire, particularly about India. And the Conservatives love him because he is a bedrock support to conservatism in the country at that time. So, you know, the language of war is out there in the ether now and guns follow suit. So there are a couple of very important gun running activities. The first one which gets busted, but actually nothing is done about it, is the Laan gun running, a major gun smuggling operation for the Unionists to get guns from Germany, from the German Empire, ironically, so that they can prepare and tool up for the kind of warfare that Carson is talking about.
- [17:47]
Dermot Ferrita
And I mean, these Arms were for the Ulster Volunteer Force, which comes into being in 1913. And, I mean, even the name of that, of course, speaks volumes about the increased fraughtness and the militancy. Now, how do you make such a group more effective and more threatening? Well, you need to arm them. So you spirit in these arms, you get them across the sea, as you mentioned that then distributed across the province of Ulster. There was never enough arms, of course, to go around, but it was more about the appearance of militancy and a demonstration of the genuineness of the determination to resist. And, of course, that provokes a response on the part of Irish nationalists who then formed their own organization, the Irish Volunteers, later that year in 1913. So that's why you have the language of war, because effectively you have two armed organisations, because there's another gun running in Howth in county Dublin in 1914, which is more controversial in the sense that there's an attempt to intervene and to disarm those who have just collected this shipment of arms. And the accusation, of course, was that there were complete double standards in operation in relation to the administration of Ireland and the governance of Ireland, because the Ulster Volunteers had been allowed to spirit their arms away. A blind eye was effectively turned in relation to that. But that's why you're getting this increased emphasis on possible civil war, on brinkmanship.
- [19:12]
Anita Anand
Yeah. And also just complete distrust now and almost a break with Westminster. All the work that Parnell had done, you know, that you must have a voice here in Westminster. It's like, well, what is the bloody point of having a voice in Westminster?
- [19:23]
Dermot Ferrita
I think that is one of the most important developments of this era. The focus shifts from parliamentary politics to. To the grassroots. The Unionists are recognizing that if they want to create an impact, if they want to successfully resist the imposition of Home Rule, they're going to have to take it to the streets. And they actually make plans for a provisional government in Ulster, again creating this huge gulf between Belfast and Westminster. And what they are saying is that it's now the Ulster Unionist Council, which is the kind of umbrella body for the Unionist movement, who will be dictating the decisions. And obviously there are those in the Irish Volunteers who are similarly interested not in parliamentary politics. In many respects, parliamentary politics is becoming more derided. What they are most interested in now are expressions of resistance, of militancy and determination at the grassroots level.
- [20:21]
William Duranpool
Tell us about these two fascinating characters involved in trying to get arms to the Irish, not to the Unionists, to the Republicans. Erskine Childers, who we all read as children with the Riddle of the Sands. Very good movie, too. Who allies with another fascinating character, Sir Roger Casement.
- [20:39]
Dermot Ferrita
One of the interesting things about this period of history is that there are individuals whose background, whose professions would suggest little sympathy with the cause of Irish nationalism or ultimately the cause of an Irish Republic, but they become converted, convinced and absolutely determined, bloodily determined in some respects. Erskine Childers will be an example of that. I mean, he was an eminently respectable and renowned author, but also a British civil servant, a senior British civil servant. Likewise, Roger Casement, who came to prominence and fame as a result of his work on behalf of the British Empire to expose the horrendous conditions that were operating in the Congo in relation to the exploitation and the slave labor and the brutality. And that was the prominence that he achieved. So much so that he became a knight of the realm. And again, he is somebody who studies much more closely the Irish situation. He had an Irish background. Obviously, he was born originally in Ireland. And Erskine Childers obviously has very strong Irish connections as well. So they do have an Irish lineage, they do have Irish backgrounds, but like so many of that generation of Irish, they do find a role within the British Empire or within the British Civil Service, but they are beginning to focus their attention on Ireland and they become, in Childer's case, of course, very much involved in the gun running of 1914. In Casement's case, he becomes very much a link between Irish nationalists and Germany when it comes to trying to complicate the British war effort.
- [22:11]
William Duranpool
And just to put this down, it's an incredibly successful attempt to get guns. 900 German rifles and 26,000 rounds of ammunition are brought in.
- [22:22]
Dermot Ferrita
Well, I wouldn't have exaggerate that because they were Mauser, they were German Mauser rifles. They were actually quite out of date. I actually held one during the centenary of the 1916 Rising in 2016, and I didn't appreciate just how heavy and laborious they were. But again, I think the importance is not so much the volume, because it wasn't that big a volume. It was more the demonstration of the determination that they, if they had to, would use these.
- [22:50]
William Duranpool
And Demott, just before we dive into now the military story and before we take a break, just give us an impression of how Ireland is actually now beginning to turn. We have this extraordinary generation coming up in the aftermath of Yeats and Lady Gregory in the Abbey Theatre, a revolutionary generation and this feeling that people are living in a time of flux, of transformation. Many are changing their names to Gaelic spelling and this whole world that Roy Foster writes about in his wonderful book Vivid Faces, he says revolutionaries were part of a generation which exposed other forms of liberation beside the political and national. One of those concerns was the drama of loving. So kind of free loving revolutionaries going to art school, influenced by radicalism. Give us a little portrait of that before we move on.
- [23:42]
Dermot Ferrita
Do bear in mind though that they are not representative of the general population. And this is the important thing about our focus on the radicals. And you know, Roy Foster also refers to the fact that they can have a very self referencing and sometimes closed world. They move in the same circles. You know, they are convincing each other of their own radicalism. They're not necessarily representative. Ireland was not in a revolutionary frame of mind in the first decade, for example, of the 20th century. The land question hadn't been completely settled, but had been largely settled. There's still a very strong attachment to the empire in both the north and the south of Ireland. And you know, Ireland is not simmering towards the outbreak of rebellion, you would think, in the first decade of the 20th century. Certainly there are those strands that you refer to there. People are imbued with a sense of cultural purpose. You know, Yeats, as a poet, famously said that Ireland was like soft wax in the aftermath of the death of Parnell, that it was waiting to be molded in a particular direction. There are no shortage of people left who want to contribute to that moulding in relation to language revival and the promotion of culture. And some of them cut their teeth in the Irish language movement and then become politically radicalized. But broadly speaking, there is still a conservative Ireland there that is supportive of home rule, not revolution. They see a future for a nationalist island within the British Empire. What changes everything is the outbreak of the First World War. As with the rest of the world, Ireland is transformed by that conflict.
- [25:16]
Anita Anand
Well, look, let's take a break here. Join us after the break where we show you just how things change after the declaration of World War.
- [25:25]
William Duranpool
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- [25:58]
Dermot Ferrita
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- [26:03]
William Duranpool
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- [26:05]
Dermot Ferrita
When you're not worried about doing things.
- [26:07]
William Duranpool
The right way, you're free to discover your way.
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Dermot Ferrita
And that's what running is all about. Run your way@newbalance.com Running this episode is.
- [26:26]
Anita Anand
Brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going cha ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today. Welcome back. So, as Dermid was saying just before the break, the war changes everything. But for a while, people don't recognize just what exactly has changed. Because you have a situation where you have Ulster Volunteers and Irish Volunteers. So from both sides of this divide that has developed in Ireland, stepping forward, putting on the uniform, taking the guns to defend Ireland and indeed Britain in this new world war. And so you get people like the Foreign Secretary going, well, look at that. Isn't that. That's handy. Sir Edward Grey says, this is a direct quote, handy with me. The one bright spot in the very dreadful situation is Ireland. The position in Ireland, it is not a consideration. Among things we have to take into account now. So look, in other words, put that out of your mind. Look, they stop their squabbling. It's always talking about them like they're silly children, you know, stop their squabbling. They've got something else to think about. Now, I just want to tell you very you mentioned Roger Casement and we should say he comes to a very sticky end because he is tried as a traitor and he is ultimately hanged at Pentonville Prison. Now, I've been to the place where he was hanged because I was doing research for the book the Patient Assassin, and I saw the place where he was thrown into an unmarked grave. And very weirdly, next to that place was thrown in. Twenty years later, more than 20 years later, in 1940, an Indian who was the man responsible for killing Michael O'Dwyer, the man from Tipperary, who, you know, was in charge of Punjab at the time of the massacre, right next door. So what they did was because there was not much room, so it's just a diversion. But it's so interesting. It's a little square of green earth outside the walls of the prison around the back, and there's nothing to mark it. It's just a rising mound of earth. And they would bury the people that they hanged in layers, like the most macabre cake you've ever heard of. So certain depths. And because there wasn't so much room, you'd have The Munos at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 deep, maybe, and there would be sort of a plumb line thrown into where the bodies were buried and there would be a little chart saying, at this level is Roger Casement, for example, And Udham Singh, the man I wrote about, was buried almost within fingertip touching distance of Roger Kasement in that mound and left that way until the 1970s, where he's then exhumed and taken to India. So I think there is so many. There are so many foreshadowings between Irish politics and Indian politics, and I'm going to sort of, you know, keep getting excited about that throughout these. These episodes that we're doing, these three episodes. But I think that that was the inspiration behind, well, if Casement can go home, can't we bring our boy home as well? And this mass movement in the, you know, from the mid-1960s to the 70s of bring him home, bring him home.
- [29:41]
Dermot Ferrita
And we have a very detailed account from the British Archives of the process of the disinterring. It's a fairly grisly business, you'll appreciate, but they had to document everything very carefully. But the British ambassador in Ireland in 1965 found himself with a bit of a dilemma about whether he should be visible at the ceremony to remark the return of the body of Roger Casement.
- [30:05]
William Duranpool
Dermot, let's go back to January 1916, when Casement is very much alive, and talk about what happened on 21 April with the British Navy intercepting the German steamer the Ord. And this is what. This was Roger Casement's plan, wasn't it, to get more arms into. Into Ireland, take us there.
- [30:25]
Dermot Ferrita
Well, Roger Casement was very pessimistic about an inadequate level of support from Germany. Now, you'll understand, of course, that there were certain advantages in cooperating with Germany on the part of Irish nationalists to try and complicate the British war effort, but also to try and bolster the potential for Irish rebels to be successful if they had outside assistance. But Casement was aware that the Germans were not taking this as seriously as Irish nationalists would have liked. So whilst he was travelling back with some support, it wasn't near enough, and Casement actually had the intention, while he was traveling back, of persuading the organizers of the rising to call it off because he didn't believe it had any prospect of success and he was very pessimistic. About the ability to build those international alliances. So this is a very sad tale for Casement. Ultimately, he finds himself on a beach in Kerry. He's stranded, he's disoriented, he's clearly not well, as nobody would be, having traveled that long in those conditions. And, of course, that begins the end of Roger Casement, who ultimately becomes a figure of great derision.
- [31:32]
William Duranpool
Is there a tip off? Are the British troops waiting for him? Do they know these arms are coming?
- [31:37]
Dermot Ferrita
Yes, I mean, they have intelligence in relation to this and he is ultimately picked up. So this is one of the interesting aspects of the whole of that story of 1916 is just how clued in the British authorities were to what was going on and what was being organised. Now, the answer is not particularly. Well, they did have certain strands of information and intelligence, but they had also taken their eye off Ireland. And, you know, many of the people who they had on their list of potential subversives or radicals were actually eminently respectable pillars of the community by 1916. So they're not necessarily looking at the right lists or the right people. But, I mean, that Casement episode is a harbinger, I suppose, of complications in relation, let's not forget, to what was being planned as a nationwide rising in 1916. The plan was not that it would be confined to Dublin. The original plan is that there will be a countrywide rebellion. And because of a series of mishaps and because of the deceptions that went on, and because the head of the Irish volunteers, whose own MacNeill, who was a history professor, who are perhaps not the most natural of rebel leaders, because he was deceived, he called off the instruction for Irish Volunteers to mobilise on.
- [32:50]
William Duranpool
Easter Sunday after the guns were captured, after the ward is seized by the navy.
- [32:55]
Dermot Ferrita
And he also was aware that there were conspiracies to organize things behind his back, he was being kept out of the frame. And when he subsequently discovered that, he was hugely angered by the level of deception, because a rumour had been put about as well, that the British government were intent on disarming the volunteers, which O MacNeill originally would have accepted would have been grounds for resistance. But his line, of course, was that Ireland was not a poetic abstraction, that it couldn't afford this luxury of a rebellion that had no prospect of success, and that it was deeply irresponsible to go ahead of it.
- [33:29]
Anita Anand
Well, so all of these misgivings, guns confiscated, heroes of the movement, imprisoned, thrown in jail, and nobody knowing just what kind of intelligence the British have, nevertheless, at 11am on 24 April 1916, around a thousand Irish Nationalist Republicans gather in central Dublin. Now tell me who they were, these people. They weren't all Irish Volunteers and they weren't all Irish Republican Brotherhood. Who else was there in that crowd?
- [33:57]
Dermot Ferrita
Yeah, I mean, we won't bamboozle people with the names of many different organizations. It's important to recognize that the 1816 Rising was planned in secret ultimately by the Irish Republican Brotherhood, often referred to as the Brotherhood, which actually dated from the late 1850s in the aftermath of the famine. Members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood were secret oath bound members of an organization, a clandestine organization that was dedicated to the overthrow of British rule in Ireland through violence. And again, the members of the IRB also infiltrate other organizations, including the Irish Volunteers. So they are operating on that level. There is also a smaller Irish Citizens army which arises as a result of labor unrest in Ireland. In 1913. There was a great famous lockout of employees in Dublin, about 20,000 employees in Dublin in 1913. That Citizen army was there to represent the interest of workers and of course, most famously associated with James Connolly, who becomes an iconic figure in Irish Labour history. And you also had Cumannaman. And Cumannaman was the female auxiliary of the Irish Volunteers. And I emphasize auxiliary because they did not have equal status with the Irish Volunteers. So it's a variety of these different groups who assemble at the beginning of the Easter Rising.
- [35:18]
William Duranpool
And what sort of people are they, Dermot? Are they poets and intellectuals and urban middle class or are they the urban poor?
- [35:25]
Dermot Ferrita
They're a mixture. No, I mean most of them are not poor. There were certainly those who represented the Labour interest. There are those who are intellectuals. Patrick Pearse, of course, who becomes the commander in chief of the Republican forces. The president of this nascent Irish Republic is famously a schoolmaster. He's a poet, he's a cultural figure. They're not household names. And we need to remember that the 1916 writing makes them household names. Pierce was well known within educational and cultural circles. He had been increasingly radicalized by the war.
- [35:57]
William Duranpool
He gives a cracker of a speech, doesn't he, at the funeral on the 1st of August. And he says, the seed sown by the young men of 65 and 67 are coming to their miraculous ripening today. The British think they have pacified Ireland, but he tells them that the fools, the fools, the fools, they have left our Fenian dead. And while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland will never be at peace.
- [36:21]
Dermot Ferrita
Now what was interesting about that speech is very carefully choreographed and There was also a great mobilization of volunteers in uniform. They were paying homage to one of the Fenian dead, the Fenian being another description of the Irish Republican brotherhood from the 19th century when they came to prominence. And Tom Clark, who was also involved in organizing the Rising, he was a veteran Fenian. He was guiding Patrick Pearse in the preparation of that speech. And he said to him, make it hot as hell. So there's a very careful choreography around this. This is an advantage to try and show the strength and determination of the volunteers, but also invoke the legacy and the lesson of the Fenians. And that's why we get this emphasis in 1916 on the dead generations as well as the living. So Pearse is very much imbued with that sense of a historic as well as a contemporary purpose.
- [37:12]
Anita Anand
So you have these firebrands who are making it hot as hell. And people do obey the call from all walks of life, as you said. Now, interestingly, you know, you'd think they try and besiege Dublin Castle or somewhere like that, which is, you know, the headquarters of British rule in Ireland, but they don't. They go to the Jacob's Biscuit Factory, home of Jacob's Cream Crackers.
- [37:34]
William Duranpool
It's not the obvious place to.
- [37:37]
Anita Anand
No, the Magazine Fort, a military force in Phoenix Park, St. Stephen's Green and the General Post Office, which is the central, the beating hub of this rebellion. Now, first of all, let's go straight to the General Post Office, because that will become the iconic battle of all.
- [37:54]
William Duranpool
We should say maybe, Anita, before we go, dive in, that this is Easter Monday. It's a holiday, many army officers are off enjoying the Ferry House Races. And so they've got a sort of empty Dublin in which they can do all this.
- [38:07]
Dermot Ferrita
Yeah. And I mean, the original plan was to mobilise on Sunday, but because of the confusion, they postponed it until Monday. Monday, the Post Office, the General Post Office, was open on the Monday. It was a working day for the Post Office. Some of those who turned up to buy stamps were in for a very rude awakening. But it's interesting what you refer to there, Anita, in relation to the strategy about seizing certain prominent city centre buildings. You would have assumed that they would have gone to Dublin Castle as the historic centre of British rule in Ireland. But the idea was that they would seize prominent city centre buildings and then buildings on the outskirts of the city to try and cover the approach to the city. Now, it's not a particularly sophisticated military strategy, is it? The idea is that they will dig themselves in and wait to see what the response will be. But this also, I suppose, illuminates another very interesting strand, which is the degree to which it was consciously staged as a drama. There were those Irish who at this time were fighting in considerable numbers in the British Army. They were being lost in the industrial scale of slaughter during the First World War. But what happens in Dublin, in particular, 1916, there's a relatively small group who are staging this drama by seizing these buildings. It's a show of defiance, of course. It's also an invitation for Britain to respond. But what they can do during that initial period of confusion is communicate their message. One of the reasons why they take over the gpo, it's the center of communications, obviously, the head of the post.
- [39:33]
William Duranpool
Office, of course, like in a revolution. More recently, seizing the telegraph office would be the equivalent, though.
- [39:39]
Dermot Ferrita
Yeah. And, I mean, it's Sackville street, you know, it's the main thoroughfare of Dublin city. Patrick Pearce cuts a somewhat strange figure outside the GPO in reading the Proclamation of the Irish Republic, which, of course, ultimately becomes an iconic Irish political document.
- [39:55]
Anita Anand
Can I read it? So, for people who don't know it, I mean, it is a stirring piece of work. We declare the rights of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies. To be sovereign and indefeasible, the Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights, equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all its past, cherishing all the children of the nation equally. I mean, it's stirring stuff.
- [40:26]
Dermot Ferrita
Now, remember what cherishing all the children of the nation equally means, because it's the most quoted phrase in the 1916 proclamation. It's not about children or infants, as we understand in the modern era. All the children of the nation, Unionists and nationalists. And he goes on to say that, you know, we will be oblivious to the differences that have been fostered by an alien government, you know, that ultimately we will resolve our own differences. Well, Unionists certainly weren't oblivious to those differences, but it also begins in the name of God. There's an intense religiosity to many of that generation in relation to how they frame their particular mission. But the promises of equality and of equal suffrage between men and women, they are very advanced. They're very progressive. There are about 200 women who were involved in the 1916 Rising. Many of them were emboldened by this promise of equality. And the Proclamation was a mixture of the words of Patrick Pearson, James Connolly. You can see the different influences, controversially. You also, of course, and it is a piece of war propaganda, let's be honest about that as well. You also, controversially, have the invoking of our gallant allies in Europe. And that is a reference to Germany, of course. So there's also a reference to the exiled children, you know, Ireland's exiled children. You can see how the different layers of the Irish experience, the historical experience, are being woven into that. And in many respects, it's timeless. You know, we do need to put it in the context of 1916, but subsequent generations have also made what they want to make, or what they wanted to make of the words of the 1916 proclamation to kind of latch it on to many future causes.
- [42:03]
William Duranpool
Dermot, now in the GPO, there is a young man aged 26 from Cork, very handsome young man who will be a major figure in the next three episodes. Tell us about Michael Collins.
- [42:17]
Dermot Ferrita
Michael Collins was not well known at this point in 1916. He's in a very junior position as aide de camp to Joseph Plunkett, who ultimately becomes one of the executed 1916 leaders. And Michael Collins's experience in 1916 is vital. It's formative. It also convinces him that the military strategy of 1916 cannot be the military strategy of the future. When it comes to the Republican movement, you do not dig yourself in and wait to be attacked. You adopt a completely different approach. So the lessons of 1916 for Michael Collins are very important. It's also significant, I suppose, that he is junior enough or not well known enough not to be one of the high profile victims.
- [43:00]
Anita Anand
Well, very famously, I mean, in the film, very famously, you know, the film Michael Collins of the same name, starring Liam Neeson, he's there, but, you know, you've got the British walking down the line saying, pick out the leaders. And they pick out the man next to Michael Collins. But not Michael Collins, because he's a nobody. I mean, he's a tall and statuesque young fella, one of many who is fighting on this day.
- [43:23]
Dermot Ferrita
That's one of the interesting things about 1916, about those who survive it. I mean, obviously the rebels hold out for nearly a week. And you can see that there's a lot of resentment initially in Dublin and elsewhere towards what they have done, because this causes a huge surprise and huge disturbances. Forty children are killed during the 1916 Rising, about 500 people overall. And of course, as always is the case, the majority of them are civilians, because the GPO is cheek by Joel with some of the most densely populated parts of the city. And these are poor people. And of course, ultimately, Patrick Pearse is appalled, he says, by the civilian shootings that he has witnessed. And it persuades him ultimately to surrender. And of course, there are a number of British Crown forces who were killed as well, about 130 of them and about 80 of the rebels, but over 250 civilians and 40 under 18. So that's the kind of body count. It's not a high body count in relation to the scale of what was going on in Europe at that time. But again, because of the compact nature of the city and the surprise it caused and the embarrassment that it caused to the British authorities, it makes an impact well beyond its numbers.
- [44:31]
Anita Anand
So, I mean, Michael Collins is not pulled out of the line. The Big Fella, as he's known, the Long Fella, is somewhere else entirely. Eamon de Valera is at Boleyn's Mill, and he is actually a commander. And by rights, when that too is put down at Bol Mill. Let's talk a little bit about Eamon de Valera, a bit about his background and why this American link will ultimately be his salvation after the Easter Rising.
- [44:55]
Dermot Ferrita
Well, you see, Eamon de Valera was born in New York and he was somebody who ultimately is returned to Ireland at a very early age to live with his grandparents in Limerick, because his mother felt that was the best option for him. His dad is Spanish, his father's Spanish. That's, you know, the devil era name, of course, does not suggest a dyed in the wool Irishman. And indeed, some of his enemies were later to use that as a slur against him. You know, the Spanish onion and the Irish stew was a famous insult hurled at Eamon de Valera. But, you know, he did grow up in Limerick and was schooled there. And I mean, Eamon de Valera was an eminently respectable maths professor and teacher.
- [45:38]
William Duranpool
Quite an austere and pious figure he was.
- [45:41]
Dermot Ferrita
And I mean, those who knew him well would argue that, you know, there was a humorous side to de Valera and a softer side to de Valerae that wasn't necessarily seen. But he met his wife Sinead when he was studying Irish. She was his Irish teacher. So he's very much imbued with that sense of the Gaelic League mission to spread Irish language. He's committed to education, but of course, he becomes involved in the Irish Volunteers. He attended the inaugural meeting and he's galvanized by that sense of purpose and possibility and the wearing of uniform. And we should remember how Important that was that sense of belonging to a collective and having a purpose. But he had serious qualms about membership of the Irish Republican Brotherhood. De Valera was conservative. He did not believe the oathbound secret societies were appropriate when it came to the promotion of that particular cause. But he recognized too, of course, that he had to sideline his conscience to a degree if he was to assume a prominent role in 1916. But we should emphasize, Anita, it's not so much his American citizenship as the fact that he is not considered a ringleader. And those who were in charge of identifying the ringleaders and ultimately were involved in the court martials, they did not recognize Eamon de Valera as one of the ringleaders. And the chronology of executions is important here because the executions occur between the 3rd and 12th May. And there's a building up of expectation. Rumors are swirling around Dublin. One contemporary observer described it as like watching blood seeping from behind a closed door. An opinion is beginning to change. It perhaps would have been wiser of Britain to have executed the leaders at the same time, very quickly in the immediate aftermath, but that's not what they did. But de Valera ultimately is identified by the authorities as one who is not regarded as a principal actor.
- [47:28]
William Duranpool
He's also not particularly well known to the other sort of Dublin based revolutionaries, is he? He's an outsider at this point.
- [47:34]
Dermot Ferrita
This is it. I mean, obviously what makes de Valera famous is his status in the aftermath of 1916 as the sole surviving commandant of the 1916 Rising by 1917. So he does have a certain rank, obviously within the Irish Volunteers. But that did not mean by any means that he was nationally a well known figure. John Maxwell is sent over from Britain as a military governor to suppress the Rising. And he writes letters to his wife. And one of the interesting observations he makes is that ever since the British government turned a blind eye to the business in Ulster, they've had nothing but trouble in Ireland. And it was interesting that he was being a bit more nuanced. He was tracing the problems back to the arming of the Ulster Volunteers that we mentioned earlier on in 1913. So he was trying to see a wider picture there. But what he was suggesting in the aftermath of the 1916 Rising was that obviously it's our duty to suppress this strain of rebellion. But there are bigger questions there about whether the British authorities have had their pulse on Irish affairs.
- [48:37]
William Duranpool
Dermot One other figure we must talk about before we deal with the aftermath of all this is the Countess Constance Markiewicz She's a very colourful character.
- [48:47]
Anita Anand
Can I do a wee quote from Yates, who was completely obsessed with her and her sister? It's a poem called To Eva Gore Booth and Kon Markowitz. And it starts off referring to their home in Lissadel, the light of evening. Lissadel. Two girls in silk kimonos, both beautiful, one a gazelle. So, you know, these are two sort of women who are brought up in a rarefied environment. But Kon Markowitz is an absolute firecracker of a revolutionary.
- [49:11]
Dermot Ferrita
And again, I mentioned earlier on those whose background would suggest little sympathy with the cause of the Irish Republic, finding themselves with the zeal of the convert. And Markievich, of course, was one of them. She was actually presented to Queen Victoria, you know, given her aristocratic background. And you mentioned the estate there in Lycadelle. And she begins to move in artistic circles. She's a painter. She wants to go to art school. She eventually persuades her parents of that. She meets, of course, this Polish count who has links and land in Ukraine, actually, and she becomes Constance Markievic. But she also immerses herself in many of those circles that we mentioned. She becomes involved in an organization that is the youth wing of the Irish Republican Movement. She's also, of course, identifying with the cause of labor. And ultimately, in 1916, she is with the Irish Citizen Army. She's second in command at Stephen's Green. There's conflicting testimony about whether she shot a policeman at the outset of the 1916 Rising. On the balance of probability, she probably did and seemed to be particularly animated by it. But she was also, as a woman, not going to be executed after 1916. She was second in command under Michael Mallon at Stevens Green. And Markiewicz has this remarkable sense of purpose when it comes to the cause. She is hugely proud of the idea of bearing arms and of being in uniform. And when you look at her correspondence, you can see the extent to which it is imbued with excitement. You know, she regards these events as thrilling in so many respects, and, you know, that's what guides her, that sense of purpose and excitement. But also, I suppose that ultimately she's the ultimate reference, because she really is dancing on the grave of the tradition she has been brought up in.
- [51:02]
William Duranpool
There's two wonderful quotes by her when she's talking to her friends in the run up to the Rising. One is she tells them, if you could shoot straight with an air gun, you could do the same with a rifle. And then a bit of advice to her fellow Easter risers. She says, to the women dressed suitably in short skirts and strong boots. Boots. Leave your jewels in the bank and buy a revolver.
- [51:23]
Dermot Ferrita
And of course, she goes on to become the first woman elected to the House of Commons and she becomes a Sinn Fein minister. And she died prematurely. Markiewicz was also a chain smoker. She didn't look after herself. Her health completely broke down and she was dead by 1927. But she did enough in that 10 or 12 year period to ensure her place in the history books and a very prominent place.
- [51:49]
Anita Anand
Well, look, I mean, first of all, I've been pronouncing her name because I read the poetry as Markovitz Markievich. I learnt a thing today. Thank you, Dermot.
- [51:57]
William Duranpool
Anita, I can't let this episode end without bringing in a relation. I know it always thrills you when my relations turn up.
- [52:04]
Anita Anand
Oh, really? Okay, good. So. Damn it, he does this all the time. He's related. He's like the Where's Wally? Of history, basically. There's one of them in every chapter. Yeah, go on.
- [52:14]
William Duranpool
But my grandfather's younger brother was in the Scots Borderers and we are a Catholic family and he was a very pious young man who was considering going to the priesthood. And we've got all his letters at home from Dublin, 1916, and he is absolutely torn apart because as a good Catholic, he thinks he shouldn't be shooting and fighting his fellow Catholics. And these heartbroken letters as he's on the barricades shooting into the gpo.
- [52:41]
Dermot Ferrita
And likewise, there were Irish men in the British army who found themselves charged with the task of suppressing and shooting on the rebels in 1916. And it's a reminder of the sheer complexity of Irish loyalties and of Irish alliances and allegiances during that period. It's so fluid.
- [52:58]
William Duranpool
And this man is posted straight from here to Ypres and he gets caught on the wire and is gassed a.
- [53:05]
Dermot Ferrita
Month later out of the Irish frying pan into the horrors of that fire.
- [53:10]
Anita Anand
Yeah. God. And again, sort of the, you know, the Indian experience as well. You know, those who are sort of starting to ask for home rule themselves in India, who then get shipped off to fight in lands that they. They've never been to, maybe never out of their own home villages before, dumped on sort of the Western Front, freezing in clothes that aren't warm enough to keep them and then they go back and nobody thanks them the way they think they should be thanked.
- [53:34]
Dermot Ferrita
Well, Tom Kettle, I'll just finally mention this. Tom Kettle was a well known Irish academic and nationalist who was appalled by 1916, because he had joined the British army, he believed in the righteousness of the cause of the war. And what he said about 1916, and he was ultimately to die in the Battle of the Somme, what he said about the 1916 Rising is that I will go down, if I go down at all, as a bloody British soldier, while the 1916 rebels will be remembered as heroes and martyrs. Which brings us back to this idea of the stage the Rising staged as a drama in 1916 and what it did to the reputations of those who fought it and who died in it, in contrast to the anonymity of the slaughter on the Western Front.
- [54:28]
Anita Anand
Well, look, our next episode is going to deal with what happened to the rebels now that they have been forced to surrender to the British willow. Anyone be shown mercy? If you want to hear that right now, what you do is sign up to our Empire Club. And the way to do that is empirepod uk.com empirepod uk.com you get early access, you get bonus episodes, you get a weekly newsletter. But for those of you on our usual slipstream, till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Anand.
- [54:55]
William Duranpool
And goodbye from me, William Durimle.