250. Victorian Narcos: Banished From Beijing (Ep 4)

Summary

Empire Podcast - Episode 250: Victorian Narcos: Banished From Beijing (Ep 4)
Released on April 28, 2025
Host/Authors: William Durand and Anita Anand

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Introduction

In Episode 250 of Empire, titled "Victorian Narcos: Banished From Beijing," hosts William Durand and Anita Anand delve into the intricate and tumultuous journey of the British ambassador, Lord Macartney, as he attempts to establish diplomatic relations with the Qing Emperor in China. This episode explores the cultural misunderstandings, diplomatic failures, and the burgeoning opium trade that would eventually undermine the Qing Dynasty.

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The Macartney Embassy: A Prelude to Failure

[01:55]
Anita Anand introduces the central conflict of the episode: Lord Macartney's prolonged and arduous journey to meet the Qing Emperor. The British delegation, led by Macartney, spent twelve grueling months traversing mountainous terrains to reach Beijing, driven by ambitions of establishing trade links and expanding British influence.

"They have just gone, a small group, to go and greet the Emperor. They have it in their minds that they're going to turn up and they're going to be embraced and, you know, it's going to be fabulous..."
— Anita Anand [01:55]

However, this optimism was met with a significant obstacle: the Chinese demand for a kowtow, a deep, symbolic gesture of submission that clashed with British diplomatic protocols.

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The Kowtow Controversy

[03:26]
William Durand explains the cultural chasm between Britain and China. The kowtow was not merely a bow; it was an act of profound submission, requiring one to kneel and touch the ground with their head, symbolizing one's status as "dust between the Emperor's toes."

“It means don't sort of give in completely and acquiesce completely. But the actual kowtow is the lowest, humblest sort of bow...”
— Anita Anand [04:05]

Despite diplomatic efforts to find a middle ground, such as proposing to bow on one knee, the British delegation remained inflexible, adhering to their own traditions and protocols. This rigidity infuriated the Qing officials and the Emperor, who perceived the British as arrogant and presumptuous.

“In the 18th century? No, they absolutely are forbidden from doing that by diplomatic protocols...”
— William Durand [05:02]

The failure to perform the kowtow led to the Emperor’s decision to cancel all future audiences, effectively severing any immediate prospects for diplomatic relations.

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The Emperor's Rebuke

[09:28]
Anita Anand emphasizes the depth of the Emperor’s frustration:

“Strange and costly objects do not interest me. We possess all things. I set no value on objects stranger or ingenious and I have no use for your country's manufacture.”
— Anita Anand [11:01]

This scathing rebuke was formalized in the Emperor’s edict, which dismissed the British embassy and declared no interest in establishing a permanent British presence in China.

“...the Qianlong Emperor merely notes that he'd accepted them, not because he actually wanted them as tokens of your own affectionate regard for me.”
— William Durand [07:19]

Despite this clear message, miscommunications and deliberate obfuscations prevented the British from fully grasping the severity of their diplomatic blunder.

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The Aftermath and Public Humiliation

[23:01]
Upon their forced departure, the British embassy attempted to salvage their reputation. However, the public narrative was dominated by humiliating accounts, particularly from Macartney's valet, who described the expedition as a complete failure.

“We entered Beijing like paupers, we remained in it like prisoners, and we quitted it like vagrants.”
— Valet’s Diary [23:33]

The British press seized upon these failures, ridiculing Macartney and depicting him as out of touch with Chinese customs. Cartoons and satirical illustrations exaggerated the cultural misunderstandings, further tarnishing the embassy’s reputation back home.

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The Rise of the Opium Trade

[28:19]
Amid the diplomatic fallout, the British East India Company capitalized on the growing demand for opium in China. The transition from traditional consumption methods to smoking opium, a practice introduced from Java, led to increased addiction rates and substantial financial gains for British traders.

“...by the time that the embassy is heading away, it's increased to 1000 [chests of opium].
— William Durand [28:19]

This surge in opium trade began to erode China’s economic stability and social fabric. The outflow of silver, addiction among the elite, and the rise of corruption and crime were early indicators of the empire’s weakening grip.

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The Seeds of Colonial Dominance

[30:53]
Anita Anand connects the dots between the failed diplomacy and the escalating opium trade, highlighting how British self-interest and monetary gain paved the way for deeper incursions into Chinese society.

“...the British are undermining everything that gave the Emperor the reasons for his pride and the ability to look down on the British.”
— William Durand [32:16]

The collaboration between British traders and local Indian merchants facilitated the expansion of the opium trade, setting the stage for future conflicts and the eventual colonial domination of parts of Southeast Asia.

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Conclusion

Episode 250 of Empire meticulously unpacks the complex interplay of cultural arrogance, diplomatic failures, and economic exploitation that characterized the British attempt to engage with Qing China. The Macartney Embassy's inability to navigate the intricacies of Chinese customs not only resulted in personal humiliation for Lord Macartney but also inadvertently fueled the rise of the opium trade, which would have profound and lasting impacts on both British and Chinese societies.

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Notable Quotes

• Anita Anand [04:05]: “It means don't sort of give in completely and acquiesce completely. But the actual kowtow is the lowest, humblest sort of bow...”

• William Durand [05:02]: “In the 18th century? No, they absolutely are forbidden from doing that by diplomatic protocols...”

• Anita Anand [11:01]: “Strange and costly objects do not interest me. We possess all things. I set no value on objects stranger or ingenious and I have no use for your country's manufacture.”

• Valet’s Diary [23:33]: “We entered Beijing like paupers, we remained in it like prisoners, and we quitted it like vagrants.”

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Looking Ahead

In the next episode, the podcast will explore the rise of key figures in the opium trade, specifically Jardine and Matheson, who played pivotal roles in the entrenchment of British influence in the Far East. To gain early access and additional content, listeners are encouraged to join the Empire Club at empirepoduk.com.

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For more Goalhanger Podcasts, visit www.goalhanger.com.

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Note: All timestamps correspond to the podcast's transcript and are included to highlight key moments and quotes within the episode.

Transcript

[William Durand]

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[Anita Anand]

Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Anand and me, William Durand. Yes. So the last cliffhanger we left you on, it's you again. No. Yay, it's you again. So look, in the last episode we'd left you on the cliff edge, or rather mountain crag. The British ambassador to China would be British ambassador to China. Lord McCartney has finally made it to the summer kingdom of the great Emperor, the great Qing Emperor. And you know, they they'd been how many months have they been on the road? You said something extraordinary. Twelve whole months on the road to try and get to see this man. And if you have not listened to the last episode, go back and listen to it. It's very funny. But all these gifts which were really important to impress the emperor, they've had to leave behind in the capital capital of Beijing because, you know, it's a trek into mountainous territory and everything would have been smashed to pieces. And they've learned their lessons from previous embassies, where lovely gifts, they think, are smashed to pieces in bumpy rides. So they leave all their stuff in the capital, Beijing. They have just gone, a small group, to go and greet the Emperor. They have it in their minds that they're going to turn up and they're going to be embraced and, you know, it's going to be fabulous, and a brave new world is going to open up of trade links and everybody getting very, very rich. Not quite. We left it on a big butt, you know, really, really, very big but.

[William Durand]

There is indeed a very big but. And the but is the kowtow. Now, in Chinese diplomatic protocol, there is no such thing as an ambassador to the court of China. There's merely submissive barbarians bringing tribute. And the first thing they have to do before they can be allowed to trade with the Middle Kingdom or to open diplomatic relations of any sort, they have to show their submission. And this is made very clear to. To the British Embassy by the officials who have been delegated to teach them civilized behavior.

[Anita Anand]

And I need to explain what the kowtow is. So the kowtow, actually, it's passed into common parlance, you know, don't kowtow to his bullying behavior. It means don't sort of give in completely and acquiesce completely. But the actual kowtow is the lowest, humblest sort of bow. So you're on your knees, so, you know, your big butt or your bottom in between your legs, on your knees, and you lean down to the ground with your hands in front of you between your legs, if you're sitting on your heels, that kind of thing. Or, you know, if you're limber in between. So look, and then you go down, so your head touches the ground, hands either side, and you touch the ground a number of times. That is the kowtow. It's basically. It's as low as you can go in front of the great emperor, you know, to show that you are basically dust between his toes. That's what it is. And that is why it's not easy for a man representing Great Britain to do that. Is it really?

[William Durand]

In the 18th century? No, they absolutely are forbidden from doing that by diplomatic protocols. So you have two. Before anything else happens, you have two completely immovable and irreconcilable diplomatic protocols. The Chinese demand that you go flat on your face and worship the emperor. And George III has commanded that. Absolutely not. So McCartney initially tries to negotiate, and there's a lot of haggling with the officials. Is it okay if he goes down on one knee rather than two? Does he have to put his face on the ground? They spend a week knocking these ideas backwards and forwards and they are completely unaware that this is absolutely the worst possible behavior in Chinese eyes.

[Anita Anand]

It's really annoying them. It's like, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? This one knee thing? And McCartney comes back going, look, well, no, this is how we do it where I come from, you know, in front of our king. That's what we do. It's like a great, you know, humbling thing. Go down on one knee in front of. Take the knee in front of the king. But the Chinese are having none of it. What's interesting, William, is that the Brits do not know how angry the Chinese are getting about this. They think they're having, like a reasonable conversation. They're very polite to your face. But back in the, you know, backrooms of the Imperial palace, they're like, what the hell are they doing? Who's ever heard of going down on one knee? This is not negotiable.

[William Durand]

And particularly the Emperor is incredibly angry and is about to kind of cancel all the audiences. As far as he's concerned, they've broken all diplomatic protocol already. And maybe they do sense this a bit, because what happens, we only learn much later when young George Thornton is advising a future diplomatic mission, is they basically decide to lie to their own bosses and to agree to kowtow, but don't tell anyone not to tell the British that they've done it.

[Anita Anand]

Say, we never done it.

[William Durand]

And this only emerges in the Amherst mission, the next attempt to open diplomatic relations, when the Chinese say, but the last lot did it in the end. And they say, no, no, no, no, they absolutely didn't. We've got his book here. Young George Staunton, who is now a middle aged mp, or even now rather senior mp, admit that there was fibbing.

[Anita Anand]

Going on, that he did do it.

[William Durand]

They did do it, but didn't. Didn't include it in the official record of what went on. So having, without realizing it, completely pissed off every official in the Chinese court and made the Emperor irate with. With fury, they finally get their audience and go down on the. Go down flat on their faces, as they had been asked to do. I think they have a few gifts that maybe, maybe the weaponry or something. They have.

[Anita Anand]

They really got a few things, swords and things, whatever, that, you know, you can carry. Yeah, but not the biggies, not the big ticket items. They're not there.

[William Durand]

And they give what the Chinese regard as their tribute. And they. And also, of course, the Chinese, as Jahangir had been centuries earlier in the Mogul court, were incredibly disappointed by the presence because they were. Not only had they left the best ones behind, but rumors of how wonderful these presents were going to be had gone ahead of them. And everyone. It's like Christmas when, you know, you find everyone's giving you the present you don't want.

[Anita Anand]

They brought the equivalent of socks to the Emperor. Oh, no, okay.

[William Durand]

Exactly.

[Anita Anand]

Oh, you shouldn't have seen.

[William Durand]

Her socks became a thing. Anyway, to give right up to this point, McCartney has no idea of how offended the Emperor is. We know because the Chinese records survive. And four days before the audience, the Qianlong Emperor was already so furious about Macartney's dithering that he had issued an edict to his ministers expressing great displeasure with the British and declaring that he would no longer show them any extra favours. And I think the officials just don't communicate this. So there's a lot of fibbing going on on both sides. The British are not telling their bosses what they're actually doing, and the Chinese officials are not carrying the message from the Emperor.

[Anita Anand]

Right. So, I mean, when you say that the Emperor has pretty much cut them off, what has he said exactly that's not being transmitted, that he's not going to do a deal, he's not going to meet them again, they can do one with their socks and leave. I mean, how angry? How angry is he?

[William Durand]

The message that the Emperor gives to his officials is that he had originally planned to let McCartney stay for a while and enjoy the sights of Jehol, which I can witness from personal experience. It's a well worth seeing this most gorgeous place. And it's a place that takes several days to see. And I've been to the audience hall there, which is this gorgeous sort of wooden miniature of the Forbidden City moved to this hill station, the middle.

[Anita Anand]

Okay, Describe it in words, because there are people who've not been to the Forbidden City me. And there are people who haven't been to this one in Gelavin. So what does it look like?

[William Durand]

The Forbidden City is sort of spectacular and vast and it's like, you know, it's like something five or six times the size of Buckingham palace with a whole succession of courtyards, finally reached the final audience hall. This in Jehol is a miniature version of that. And these lovely little wooden pavilions in woods. It's utterly heavenly. And when you go there Today you see all the Qinlong Emperor's robes and all that sort of stuff on display there. It's wonderful. So anyway, the message goes out from the Emperor to the officials that the British Embassy has caused His Majesty great displeasure. They're told that they can keep the gifts that were planned for them, he says, and hold the meetings that had been promised, but otherwise they were cut off. Now this isn't clearly passed on, or certainly if it is passed on, it's done in such diplomatically oleaginous way that the British just miss, miss the point of it. And they don't realize that the Emperor has ticked them off for, as he puts it, their presumption and self importance. Right, which is what? It's quite strong stuff.

[Anita Anand]

No, no. And it, but it, but doesn't it, doesn't it get stronger with him? Because he says, you know when they say, look, these aren't actually the proper gifts, the socks are not, they're just a token, we've got better things than the socks. And he says, look, strange and costly objects do not interest me. We possess all the things. I set no value on objects strange or ingenious and I have no use for your country's manufacture. I mean, that is a stinging rebuke.

[William Durand]

This also is relayed back to Britain because they can't sort of avoid saying.

[Anita Anand]

They can't trade, you've got no trade deal. Because he says he doesn't like any of your stuff.

[William Durand]

And then he adds, just to sort of add insult to injury, he says, when foreigners come seeking audience with me and when they are sincere and submissive, then I always treat them with kindness, as the Emperor. But if they come in arrogance, they get nothing. So like going to see Trump at the moment, if he was Zelensky, he gets a diplomatic ticking off, but again with the kind of bullheadedness of. The British at this period are completely unaware that they have completely failed even before they got their audience. In the edict which the Qianlong Emperor issues the official edict to George iii, he says that China has no need for increased trade with Britain or indeed has no use for the establishment of a permanent British Embassy.

[Anita Anand]

It's a total failure, total failure.

[William Durand]

But because there's no one that can actually properly read Chinese with this, oh.

[Anita Anand]

I love this, I love this.

[William Durand]

They don't know that they have, they've been given sort of nulpois.

[Anita Anand]

Can I just say, could dwell on this for one second because they took 11 year old little George with them, little George Thornton, he says, yes, Daddy, I Speak fluent Chinese. I did. I've done all my homework. No one can read the rebuke. No one. So they must open this scroll and just assume, wave to everybody.

[William Durand]

Thank you, sir.

[Anita Anand]

This is great. We'll take this back. This is lovely. This must only say, love the socks. Can't wait to see the rest of it. That's what it says. They're happy. They think it's gone well.

[William Durand]

I mean, they imagine that they're now going to go down to Beijing, everyone's going to see the presidents, and it's all going to carry on. It's all going to be lovely. In fact, this scroll that they've been getting says emphatically that the request for a British ambassador to remain in the capital is, quote, not consistent with the customs of this, our empire, and therefore cannot be allowed. And he acknowledges the Emperor that foreign missionaries have, on occasion, been allowed to live in Beijing. And in fact, at this moment, Dinwiddie is hanging out with some foreign missionaries, some Jesuits in Beijing who are interested in his legacy. Lenses. And because they're good.

[Anita Anand]

They're good lenses. Didn't we draw? Really good stuff? Yeah.

[William Durand]

But he says very clearly that these missionaries and anyone else who desires to live in the capital must adopt such a position that he must immediately put on Chinese dress, dwell with the society assigned to him, and cannot return to his country. So these guys are there for life.

[Anita Anand]

Wow. Can anyone read that out to them? Did they understand that? Did he understand it? No, he didn't even understand it.

[William Durand]

I think it's when they get to Beijing, and we're gonna come to that in a minute, that the penny begins to drop, quite possibly because they meet someone who can read Chinese.

[Anita Anand]

All right, so then what happens next? Because this is all just unfolding in a terrible way.

[William Durand]

And so the final paragraph of this edict, he lets it be known that he has given the British Embassy already an abundance of gifts and that they should simply be grateful and go home. All these gifts which Macartney's been worrying about, the Qianong Emperor merely notes that he'd accepted them, not because he actually wanted them as quotes, tokens of your own affectionate regard for me. So the two most arrogant nations in the world with the two biggest empires have met, completely misunderstood each other, and the whole thing has been a spectacle. Spectacular. Famer. And his final words are, in truth, as the greatness and splendor of the Chinese Empire have spread its fame far and wide, and as foreign nations from a thousand parts of the world crowd hither over the mountains and seas to pay us homage and to bring us the rarest and most precious offerings. What is it that we can want with you here? And then this final words that you've already said, Strange and costly objects do not interest me. We possess all things. I set no value on objects stranger or ingenious. And we have not the slightest use for your country's man.

[Anita Anand]

So can I just say it? It is. It is the answer. It's meant to be a rhetorical question. What. What do you buy for the man who has everything? And the Emperor answers it. Nothing. Nothing that you've got.

[William Durand]

I've already got it.

[Anita Anand]

I don't. I don't care. But lovely Dinwoody, who I, I have a soft spot for because he's a scientist. I like scientists. As anyone who listens to this podcast will know, he's just beavering away, put stuff, putting up his lenses, putting up his planetarium because, you know, he's brought it thousands and thousands of miles and he's still, they are still thinking that these lustres and these globes and the clocks, I mean, clocks are really special in Britain. And, you know, he's, he's setting everything up, putting it all in the right places to make, as he puts it, a very beautiful appearance, which he thinks is again, quote, much admired by the Chinese, because the polite Chinese people around him are going, oh, no, it's terrific. Good effort.

[William Durand]

Everyone's going to love it.

[Anita Anand]

Well done, Dinwiddie. Oh, this is going to be fabulous. Oh, well done, you. However, the Emperor does then deign to look at this stuff, doesn't he? When he comes back from Jeol, he.

[William Durand]

First of all issues a second edict which is even more damning than the first. Oh, no, he indicates, just because I think now, you know, the penny is not fully dropping. But the embassy is beginning to realize that they're not being treated with the. They haven't been, you know, given the second audience, they haven't seen the Emperor again. They were thinking they were going to come and stay for at least a year and make a great study and make friends. Clearly, the upset that the British had not left already the Emperor then, to make it even more clear and not realizing that the British can't read the decks that he's giving them, sends the second one, and he says that he has complete satisfaction with the existing trade arrangements. In other words, the Brits are just stuck on one little stretch of river in Canton and can't move even into Canton, never mind anywhere else in the Empire. He says, and it's a wonderful assertion of self confidence. The products of our empire are abundant and there is nothing we do not have. So we have never needed trade with foreign countries to give us anything we lacked. However, he went on tea, porcelain and silk that China produced, he understood were essential needs for countries like England that did not have so patronizing and so out of the great good of our dynasty. We have long permitted foreign merchants to come to Canton and purchase such goods to satisfy your needs and allow you to benefit from our surplus trade. In other words, he's saying, had always been a favor on China's side to lesser nations. And he then ends letter by telling the King of England, George iii, that England is just one of many countries that come to trade with us and if I give Britain special treatment, then they will all want to have it as well.

[Anita Anand]

Yes. I mean, yeah, if we let you, everyone else is going to want some. So this is crushing for McCartney. This must. Because he must know he's going to have to go back with nothing. And after all this farce, it's, it's, it's just going to be a disaster.

[William Durand]

They're still holding out for Dinwiddie to save the day. And only one hot air balloon ride will, you know, will really balloon over Beijing.

[Anita Anand]

I mean, they're going to love it. It's going to be amazing.

[William Durand]

They will love it. Exactly. That's what they're still hoping for. But on October 1, the emperor who has come down from Johol back to the capital because it's now cold up in the capital, October is the beginning of the cold weather in Manchuria, comes down and he does a two minute tour of this planetarium which, which should.

[Anita Anand]

Have taken hours, which Dinwiddie has set this up so it takes hours. And he can give lectures and teach them things that, you know, he spent a lifetime learning. Oh, poor Dunwoody.

[William Durand]

And his comment, which he, which he gives as he's leaving is it is good enough to amuse children. That's the Emperor's final crushing.

[Anita Anand]

There's another really gorgeous thing because Dunwiddy, you know, who's only sort of a minor apparatchik in the scheme of things, you know, if you're dealing with the great Emperor, he has to watch and he's watching from sort of almost around a corner with a mirror, the reflection, because you can't look directly at the Emperor. So you know, like, you know, when you've got this little pocket watch, you want to see if the boy in the class really does like you. And it's looking. He's sort of like he's looking into this mirror and he sees the Emperor doing this two minute dash around the stuff that has literally taken him a lifetime.

[William Durand]

30 years.

[Anita Anand]

30 years. 30 years to put together two minutes. And what he says is that he just has this inscrutable face that shows absolutely no emotion. Imagine how crushing that is to poor Dinwiddie, who, you know, stayed behind to make it all perfect and all lovely. And 30 years of his life have gone into this for two minutes. A man is just clearly bored.

[William Durand]

So that's October 1st. And on October 6th, the emperor notices that these barbarians are still there. He's dismissed them in Jehora, I told you to go. And so finally, on the 6th, they're literally kicked out.

[Anita Anand]

So look, I mean, with what ostensibly feels very much like a Airbnb overstay, where you've been told, right, you were told to go. You were told to go six days ago. Why are you still here? Let's help you with your bags. Let's take a break. When we come back after the break, find out what happens next. PayPal lets you pay all your pals like your graduation gifters. Who's paying for the mattress topper? You mean the beanbag chair? Aren't we getting a mini fridge? Can we create a pool on PayPal? It lets us collect the money before we buy it.

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[William Durand]

Welcome back. So we are in Beijing and the first ever British Embassy to China has just been kicked out their Airbnb. They were told to leave six days earlier, but they didn't realize because no.

[Anita Anand]

One can read what they're being told. No one can understand it.

[William Durand]

And so the penny finally drops. Poor old Dinwiddie is not going to be able to float in a hot air balloon over the Chinese Emperor. They're not going to be able to show their mastery of pyrotechnics and artillery.

[Anita Anand]

And they bought a diving bell. They were going to go underwater.

[William Durand]

Yeah, none of that's going to happen.

[Anita Anand]

Yeah.

[William Durand]

And despite the protests of now completely hysterical Dinwiddie, the Chinese start packing everything up because the British are not doing it themselves.

[Anita Anand]

Yeah, let's help you. Let's help you out here.

[William Durand]

So they just start throwing all these lenses into boxes and Dinwiddie's screaming, no, no, let me put the wool and the cotton wool and everything else in the Journal. McCartney is still trying to put a good spin on it, but as one of his servants puts it in his diary, we entered Beijing like paupers, we remained in it like prisoners, and we quitted it like vagrants.

[Anita Anand]

Oh, now they understand.

[William Durand]

Pretty good, isn't it?

[Anita Anand]

Yeah, it is. And for a man, again, I describe it as a posho, but he comes from a dignified family. He's a man who served in Russia. It is not like he's some hick off the boat. He knows about diplomacy or he thinks he knows about diplomacy. And this was meant to be his one foot on Mars. He was meant to be that pioneer, and instead he's sort of chased off with his tail between his legs. Right, so then what happens to a proud man like that?

[William Durand]

So McCartney initially doesn't really, I mean, obviously tries to put as good a spin as he's heading back to England. He's trying to put a good spin in it. But it's Staunton, George Staunton, who writes an honest account.

[Anita Anand]

The elder or the 11 year old, or the blabby 11 year old who's filling his pockets with the Wall of China. His dad. Okay, right.

[William Durand]

And Staunton's account, which comes out a few months after McCartney's the following year, reveals in the fullness the complete and utter diplomatic failure and humiliation that this entire embassy has been. And McCartney becomes a standing joke.

[Anita Anand]

I mean, so Staunton has written an account, however, I thought actually the one who really spills the beans is his valet. He's got a slightly sort of sober version that it didn't go very well. Whereas McCartney might want to say, no, no, it went as well as can be expected. Staunton takes that expectation down to a realistic level that it wasn't as great as we thought it would be and maybe next time don't send socks. But it is his valet who goes and says, basically, we were booted round the kingdom, we were told to get out. It was all awful. And that is the thing, the valet's account of this trip is what hits the papers. And the papers then start making absolute merriment at McCartney's expense. He becomes a figure of fun. They start doing cartoons of McCartney where he's really awkward and kind of all angular and trying to sort of kowtow in front of the Emperor, which he was told not to do. And he's surrounded by these cartoons, these visual depictions with some of these over bloated Chinese officials who were just looking at him with nothing but disdain. So for a man who has already had the stress of almost, almost two years of trying to prepare for, take, try and meet the Emperor with all of these high promises of I'm the man who can do this, is now absolutely debased as a diplomat. I mean, his whole world comes crashing down and kind of. There's something rather neat that it's a kiss and tell from the valet that kind of does for him.

[William Durand]

It's rather like sort of Lady Diana stories, you know?

[Anita Anand]

Yes. Or a butler doing their own account. Because even Staunton's account, and you're right, Staunton lowers the expectations. It didn't go as quite as well as we hoped it would. And little George, it turns out, needs to do a bit more work on his Chinese. But, you know, it is. It's the valet what done it. I mean, it feels like it's total and complete humiliation with the caricatures and, you know, the laughter. Once people are laughing at you, it's like nowhere else to go. Or does he manage to save some. Or does this embassy manage to save some shreds of dignity?

[William Durand]

The embassy doesn't. But you can say that in one way, the British, or certainly the East India Company, get the last laugh, because although the Emperor is simply not interested in opening diplomatic relations, having an embassy in Beijing giving any more access to the British than they've already got, they don't actually cancel the existing arrangements. It isn't like they're so angry at the bad. The bad and barbaric behavior that they close down Canton and. And even as the embassy is being sent home in disgrace, and even as poor Dinwiddie's telescopes are being packed, the trade in opium is growing and growing. What had been a major deficit of the British with giving all their gold to the Chinese to buy the tea and having nothing to sell in return, that is being eroded by the sheer quantity of opium which is being sold even as the Macartney Embassy is heading back to London.

[Anita Anand]

So I mean, you're suggesting that balance of payments is not as completely out of whack as it was. I mean, tell me about the scale. I mean, what kind of money and what kind of import are we talking about?

[William Durand]

So what's happening is that the Chinese are consuming more and more opium. There's been this change in the way it's consumed. It used to be drunk or swallowed as pills. But the innovation that began in Java of smoking opium, what you do is take a little ball of opium and an expert in this rolls it around in a flame so that it nearly catches fire, but doesn't, and then you put it into an opium pipe and smoke it. And this is highly intoxicating and highly addictive. And this is apparent in the sales of opium to China, which, which are increasing even as the embassy is retreating. So when the McCartney embassy is originally planned in this, the late 1760s and early 1770s, there's only about 200 chests of East India Company opium which is being sold to China. But by the time that the embassy is heading away, it's increased to 1000. In other words, it's gone up five times. That continues so that by 1800, just 20 years later, the figure grows up to about 5000 chests of opium. In other words, it increases again five more times. So this is the beginnings of the undermining of Qing China. So this great edifice of a proud empire which was so self confident that they could say they had no interest in the GE gores that the British were showing to them, is being undermined in multiple ways. First of all, the balance of payments that the Chinese have been very rich on the tea trade, but now Spanish silver, which is the currency that they use, is now beginning to flow out of China rather than into it. Secondly, there's a major problem of addiction, particularly in the upper classes, particularly in the Mandarin classes and the urban rich. It's now not only addictive, but fashionable and addictive, and it's making more and more of the population, putting them out of work really, because all they want to do is lie back each day and horizontal and smoke their pipe of opium him. But also crucially, it's beginning to create a whole wave of criminality and violence associated with the cells. Because like, you know, a modern cocaine trade, you need to bribe officials, you need to deal through gangsters because it's illegal. And the gangsters are becoming richer and the officials are becoming more and more corrupt.

[Anita Anand]

So there's a crime wave because you need thugs to get it in, you need thugs to try and trade it who can.

[William Durand]

And we'll be seeing more of this in the next episod. But while the British have left with their tail behind their legs, in one way the traders are still there. And remember that the traders are. And we'll be dealing with this more in the next episode. But the traders are actually not East India Company. They these into company, make the opium, they grow it, they sell it at auction Calcutta and they leave it to others, often Indians, Parsis from Bombay, many of them, but also independent traders, many of whom are Scots. And they do the illegal trade. They're the guys liaising with the gangsters off the coast of China, not landing it officially in Canton, but in islands like Hong Kong and other offshore islands where the gangsters hang out. This in time will lead not just China, but also the whole world of Southeast Asia to crumble under the face of these assaults. The growing criminality, the drain of silver, the undermining of society and the crime wave that goes with it. So. So two proud empires have met face to face. They've completely misunderstood each other and it looks like the British have lost. But in actual fact, the British are undermining everything that gave the Emperor the reasons for his pride and the ability to look down on the British.

[Anita Anand]

Can I just ask one final thing? Cause we're coming to the end of this podcast. But are they doing it with the desire to undermine this power base or are they doing it just because of the money?

[William Durand]

Honey, it's just the money. The guys, the Brits who are selling this illegally off the coast of China are Scots who are hard headed businessmen, have got no interest in anything but self improvement and making fortune. There's a whole bunch of Parsees from Bombay who they're collaborating with who are often doing the hard work buying the opium both from the East India Company and from Indian growers in Malwar. And they're trading out through Karachi in Bombay, which is why Karachi in Bombay initially become these very rich cities, thriving places, thriving. And indeed Singapore. So all the pieces are now in place for the humiliation and the undermining of Chinese society. And the end of this story is the complete colonial takeover of a great deal of the Far East.

[Anita Anand]

Well, listen, the next episode we are going to talk about two men who find themselves at the very heart of this illegal trade. Names which may not be unfamiliar to you even today, the names of Jardine and Matheson. So if you want to hear that a little bit early, you know what you have to do. You have to join our club because then you get all of these things in one go. Listen whenever you like. EmpirePoduk.com is where you will find us. And in the club you don't just get early access to episodes. You get reading lists, you get our newsletter. You get a thriving community of listeners to chat to. So till the next time we meet, it is is goodbye from me, Anita.

[William Durand]

Anand, and goodbye from me, William Durable.