258. The Big Three & The Big Carve Up (Ep 3)

Summary

Empire Podcast: Episode 258 - "The Big Three & The Big Carve Up (Ep 3)"

Release Date: May 26, 2025
Hosts: William Durrenpool and Anita Anand
Podcast Series: Empire by Goalhanger
Description: Exploring the rise and fall of empires through pivotal historical events and influential figures.

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Introduction: Setting the Stage

In Episode 258 of Empire, titled "The Big Three & The Big Carve Up (Ep 3)", hosts William Durrenpool and Anita Anand delve into the intricate dynamics of the Yalta Conference, a pivotal moment near the end of World War II. This episode meticulously unpacks the interactions among the "Big Three" leaders—President Franklin D. Roosevelt of the United States, Prime Minister Winston Churchill of the United Kingdom, and Premier Joseph Stalin of the Soviet Union—and examines how their negotiations shaped the geopolitical landscape of the post-war world.

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Arrival and Initial Impressions

The episode opens with a vivid portrayal of the leaders' arrivals at the Yalta Conference:

• Winston Churchill ([02:00]): Arrives with characteristic swagger, cigar in hand, exuding confidence and readiness.

• Franklin D. Roosevelt ([02:00]): Enters the conference in a wheelchair, a symbol of his vulnerability which he insists remains concealed. "He asked his hosts not to photograph him being lowered onto the tarmac, preferring images of him to be seen driving off in a car" ([02:15]).

• Joseph Stalin ([02:00]): Makes a more subdued entrance, sending Vyacheslav Molotov as his representative, signaling a controlled and strategic approach.

A notable moment: Roosevelt's dignified yet vulnerable entrance contrasts sharply with Churchill's brash demeanor, setting the tone for their interactions.

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Leader Dynamics and Relationships

The interplay between the leaders is a focal point:

• Churchill vs. Roosevelt ([02:55]): Churchill attempts to assert dominance by seeking private discussions, which Roosevelt resists to avoid being beholden to his British ally. "The Americans, very much their own men, are not wanting to be beholden to their wartime ally" ([03:00]).

• Stalin's Security Obsession ([04:15]): Stalin's paranoia is evident, having purged his party and implemented strict security protocols to prevent assassination attempts or espionage. "They put down incredibly strict protocols about the arrival patterns of the aircraft" ([04:20]).

Quote Highlight:
"He doesn't know any man and no man knows him," writes Anna Roosevelt about her father ([12:34]).

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The Yalta Venue and Logistics

The logistical challenges and state of the Yalta Conference's venues are meticulously described:

• Villa Vorontsov ([14:01]): Stalin's residence at Yalta, described as an architectural mishmash of "Swiss chalet meets mosque," reflects both opulence and operational deficiencies. "Alexander Cadogan described it as a big house of indiscernible ugliness" ([14:19]).

• Levadia Palace ([16:48]): The American contingent's base, lavish yet plagued with inadequate facilities like limited flushing toilets and pest infestations. "They had to hastily build extra latrines in the garden" ([17:33]).

• Overall Condition: Both palaces, severely damaged from previous bombings, are being hastily refurbished with items from Moscow's top hotels and art galleries. "The Nazis had taken everything—the door handles, light fittings," ([13:40]).

Quote Highlight:
"Things are so bad you can see three field marshals queuing for a bucket whenever you look out of the window because the plumbing didn't work," Sarah Churchill notes ([15:50]).

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Personal Anecdotes and Interactions

The personal lives and anecdotes of the leaders and their entourages add depth to the narrative:

• Churchill's Recitals ([08:34]): Despite his illness, Churchill entertains himself and his daughter by reciting Byron's Don Juan during arduous travels.

• Sarah Churchill ([09:55]): Acts as Churchill's aide de camp, managing logistics and social engagements, reflecting her crucial yet often overlooked role.

• Anna Roosevelt ([12:42]): Roosevelt's daughter, a former journalist, shares a close and teasing relationship with her father, contrasting with the formal demeanor of other members.

Quote Highlight:
"He doesn't know any man and no man knows him," Anna Roosevelt reflects on her father's enigmatic personality ([12:34]).

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Negotiations and Agendas

The core of the episode examines the conflicting objectives and power plays during the conference:

• Stalin's Dominance: With the Soviet Union controlling Eastern Europe and advancing rapidly towards Berlin, Stalin holds significant leverage. "They know that the Soviets are not going to give up Eastern Europe" ([21:02]).

• Churchill's Concerns: Focused on preventing Soviet dominance, Churchill advocates for Western spheres of influence and is wary of Stalin's intentions. He also pushes for French representation in post-war Berlin, citing Britain's support during the war ([24:23]).

• Roosevelt's Vision: Aiming to establish the United Nations and secure Soviet assistance against Japan, Roosevelt's agenda is threatened by the immediate realities of Soviet military advancements.

Quote Highlight:
"For Poland, what is a matter of honour for Britain, is a matter of life and death for the Soviet Union." ([28:42]).

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Daily Proceedings and Social Events

The social dynamics and day-to-day activities reveal underlying tensions:

• Banquets and Toasts ([37:14]): Lavish evening events contrast with the strategic gravity of the negotiations, with Stalin discreetly consuming water amidst heavy drinking by others.

• Stalin's Vigilance ([38:08]): Unlike his counterparts, Stalin maintains a disciplined demeanor, observing and analyzing every interaction carefully.

• Mixed Signals: Roosevelt's attempt to build rapport by nicknaming Stalin "Uncle Joe" falls flat, highlighting the cultural and personal disconnects ([37:41]).

Quote Highlight:
"If you don't watch him, he will slip a kopeck out of your pocket." - Stalin on British deceit ([26:14]).

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Underlying Tensions and Trust Issues

Trust and mutual respect are notably absent among the leaders:

• Churchill and Stalin ([26:14]): Churchill harbors deep distrust towards Stalin, viewing Soviet intentions as deceptive and expansionist.

• Roosevelt's Isolation ([29:00]): Contrary to popular belief in a close Anglo-American alliance, Roosevelt does not consider Churchill his closest ally. Both leaders share mutual reservations, undermining the supposed camaraderie.

• Stalin's Paranoia: His extensive security measures and surveillance signify a lack of trust even among the Allies, ensuring he remains in control of the narrative.

Quote Highlight:
"They find nothing sweeter than to trick their allies." - Stalin referencing British deceit ([26:14]).

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Impact and Conclusions

The episode concludes by reflecting on the long-term repercussions of the Yalta Conference:

• Eastern Europe's Fate ([21:54]): The conference effectively seals the future of Eastern Europe under Soviet influence, laying the groundwork for the Cold War and the Iron Curtain.

• British Empire's Decline ([24:23]): Yalta symbolizes the beginning of Britain's diminished role on the global stage, transitioning from imperial dominance to a more constrained international position.

• Legacy of the Leaders: Roosevelt's vision of the United Nations is overshadowed by the immediate and pressing realities of Soviet expansion, while Churchill's concerns about Soviet dominance proved prescient.

Final Insight:
The Yalta Conference, as dissected in this episode, serves as a critical juncture where the ambitions and mistrust among the Allies set the stage for the geopolitical tensions that would dominate the latter half of the 20th century.

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Notable Quotes

1. Anna Roosevelt on Her Father:
   "He doesn't know any man and no man knows him." ([12:34])

2. Sarah Churchill on Venue Conditions:
   "Things are so bad you can see three field marshals queuing for a bucket whenever you look out of the window because the plumbing didn't work." ([15:50])

3. Stalin on British Deceit:
   "They find nothing sweeter than to trick their allies." ([26:14])

4. Roosevelt's Observation on Policymaking:
   "Japan mustn't forget that the Manhattan Project is progressing at this point." ([27:21])

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Conclusion

Episode 258 of Empire provides a comprehensive and engaging analysis of the Yalta Conference, highlighting the complex interplay of personalities, strategic agendas, and geopolitical maneuvers among the Big Three. Through detailed storytelling and insightful commentary, hosts William Durrenpool and Anita Anand elucidate how these high-stakes negotiations not only determined the immediate post-war order but also set the foundation for subsequent global power structures and conflicts.

For those unacquainted with the episode, this summary offers a thorough understanding of the critical discussions and historical significance encapsulated in "The Big Three & The Big Carve Up."

Transcript

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[Anita Anand]

Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anit and me, William Drimpel. So in the last couple of episodes we told you about the cast list, we told you about their backroom deals, we told you about their little secrets and secrets that they don't even know have been sold to the Soviets. So now they're going to meet. They arrive separately, of course, because they're coming from different places. For Roosevelt, it's a really arduous flight. It's long, it's body joltingly hard. And when they come off the plane, you've got sort of already a different aspect to both of them. Churchill, you've got sort of swaggering off with chewing on his cigar, you know, sort of like all cocky and ready. Roosevelt has to be lowered onto the tarmac in his wheelchair and there is something that he asks his hosts and really insists on that he should not be photographed at such times showing his vulnerabilities so you won't see images of him being lowered onto the tarmac, but you will see him in a car driving off.

[William Durrenpool]

When Churchill and Roosevelt met up prior to this in Malta, Churchill was very keen to get into a back room with Roosevelt and knock off common positions and Roosevelt avoided it. He didn't want to be beholden to Churchill in any way and have any deals with him. So already the diminishing of Britain, the kind of post war Britain which will emerge is sort of the ghost of it is already here in Yalta. The Americans, very much their own men, they're not wanting to be beholden to their wartime ally and they are preparing for a diminished Britain after the war. The second interesting thing that I think is fascinating is that Stalin is obsessed with security. Before the war, he's already purged half his party from potential rivals and enemies. In the immediate run up to Yalta, he's cleared out huge numbers of the indigenous Crimean Tatars and he is terrified that he's going to be assassinated. He's also worried, obviously that his guests are going to be vulnerable to attack by the Nazis who are still up and running. And if they had got wind of the Alta conference, it would be a very quick way to take out the.

[Anita Anand]

Opposition in one go.

[William Durrenpool]

Yeah, devastating blow. So they put down incredibly strict protocols about the arrival patterns of the aircraft coming in from Malta. So they have to go on a particular flight path, they have to go in a particular manoeuvre, they have to take an immediate sort of left turn at a particular point, come in to land so they can't be mistaken for enemy aircraft. And the anti aircraft crews all over the Crimea have been given strict instructions to fire if the aircraft do not follow these protocols. So the whole thing is quite tense. There's extreme danger that if a stray Nazi fighter doesn't appear or anti aircraft fire, that they might be shot down by friendly fire from the Soviets.

[Anita Anand]

Yeah, blow them out of the sky also. I mean, another very important thing. Now, it could be because of security concerns, but actually there are those in the British contingent who think it's a very visible snub that Stalin doesn't come and meet them, that he sends Molotov to come and shake hands and glad handle them into the cars that are going to, you know, take them some five hours away from the airstrip to where these talks are going to take place. But he's not there, Stalin's not there himself.

[William Durrenpool]

And Molotov's line is that Stalin hasn't yet arrived, that he's been held up with important business in Moscow. And this is not true. This is a straightforward lie that Stalin's already in his bunker all set with all his documents and it's the beginning of the game playing and position forming that'll ensue over the next few days. But the other thing that worries the British and this sort of brings back memories of Biden at the end of his attempt at re election, everyone is worried that Roosevelt's lost it, that his health is such. And Churchill's doctor, Lord Moran, records of Roosevelt's arrival. The president looked old, thin and drawn. He sat looking straight ahead with his mouth open as if he was not taking things in. Remember that open mouth expression Biden had during the debate? And so the same worries that not only have the Soviets taken Eastern Europe and there's very little left in terms.

[Anita Anand]

Of negotiating, but there's very little left of Roosevelt. Yes, I know. So there's another very interesting anecdote about this, is that when they are sort of being taken from their planes, you know they're going to travel in separate cars and separate convoys. There is a moment where Roosevelt is seated in a car and Churchill's walking next to him on the tarmac. And again, it's somebody in his contingent who is outraged by this, saying he looks like some Indian fakir following a palanquin. This is not the projection of power that we need. So right from the get go, every single thing is going to be analyzed and important because it's all international projection. Churchill comes with his most trusted advisors. He's got his foreign secretary, Anthony Eden. Roosevelt has got his secretary of state, Edward Stettinius. Sounds like a stutter, but it's hard to say. And the rest, you know, field marshals, generals, stenographers, bodyguards, translators, there are enormous numbers of people who are coming. 25 transport planes will land at Saki airstrip and following in their wake an absolutely nutso entourage. So these 25 transport planes, seven personnel among those who have traveled to, you know, the River Hades Riviera, as Churchill famously called it.

[William Durrenpool]

And despite the fact that this has been a, you know, an absolutely sort of leveled war zone only a few months earlier with sort of desperate shell holes and bombed out buildings, on arrival they find that the Soviets have set up a table filled with vodka, wines, caviar, fish bread and. But heaven knows what will follow, writes Lord Moran in his diary. And bizarrely, Churchill, who was very ill and under the weather in Malta and.

[Anita Anand]

Feeling very put out, he had migraine, he had a terrible migraine on the flight. He couldn't bear the sunlight when he got out of the plane, he now.

[William Durrenpool]

Has totally recovered and all the way to Yalta, which he thinks is an interminable. He's very bored by the trip. He's like, Christ, five more hours of this and he fills the time by reciting, this is rather impressive to his daughter, the whole of Don Juan. Don Juan, I should pronounce it properly. Don Juan, yes, the Byron epic. Who knew that he knew it by heart.

[Anita Anand]

Well, also, who wants to be stuck.

[William Durrenpool]

In a car for five hours with recited books?

[Anita Anand]

That just sounds awful. Well, you mentioned the daughter. It is bring your daughters to work day in Yalta, it turns out, because Sarah Churchill, I mean, I'm going to call her Churchill, she has a married name. But just so it's easier to follow this wonderful book that we talked about before, Catherine Grace, the Daughters of Yalta. It's filled with wonderful diary entries and letters that the girls or the women have collected of their own recollections. But she has served as Churchill's aide de camp, so she has to put up with his recitals and has had to in the past. She was in Tehran as well. But she's actually really quite an important part of his retinue because she assists with logistics, she relays top secret messages, she tries to schmooze the Soviets. You know, that's one of her jobs as sort of like a social attache. But it's even more than that because they're all going to be given their own base camps in these different palaces. But to get to their bases for these negotiations, it's dangerous and it's really scary. So, you know, they have to go through this winding mountain pass which is.

[William Durrenpool]

Quite narrow over the highest peak of the, of the Crimea at 5050ft.

[Anita Anand]

And it's icy, it's icy. They're skittering near the edge. All along the way they've got Soviet soldiers, many of them women soldiers, sort of lining the route.

[William Durrenpool]

What they don't realise, I think, is that they think they're regular Soviet soldiers. In fact, they're all nkvd, but they're.

[Anita Anand]

Stationed all along the way also, just showing how much sort of manpower is at Stalin's disposal. And this is, again, every step of this is a major flex.

[William Durrenpool]

But it's also, I think, very interesting. It's something that the Soviets copied from the Nazis when in the early days, when Molotov went to sign the Molotov ribbon trophy packed, the Nazis lined the whole way from the border with troops every, whatever it was, 10 yards or 50 yards, and the Soviets do this too in imitation of the Nazis, interestingly, it's a kind of model of copy.

[Anita Anand]

Right, well look, Sarah's really interesting and she was an actress by trade, then she was a journalist, you know, so she has all of the support that Churchill normally looks to Clemmie for. But Clemi doesn't like flying and she doesn't like the idea of going to such a God awful place in the Crimea. So she's not travelled with him, but it is Sarah's job. And with Roosevelt he brings Anna, his daughter Anna, I'm going to call her Roosevelt but she has got a married name, Ertiger and she's also been a journalist before the war. She's written for ladies magazines, one that I just laughed. She used to write for Babies, just.

[William Durrenpool]

Babies, strangely, a magazine which hasn't survived into the present.

[Anita Anand]

But you know, she worked for radio and she adores her father just like Sarah really adores. You know, they've got a very close relationship where they can kind of tease each other. He trusts her. Churchill will insist during this conference of doing most of his reading in bed or in the bath.

[William Durrenpool]

There's that very nice scene in the movie Darkest Hour where Churchill is sitting on the kind of, you know, soap rack where you normally put a bar of soap or a back scrabber. He's sitting with an enormous bottle of Bollinger in the bath in the morning with his cigar.

[Anita Anand]

It drives his team nuts because they can't enter the boudoir and they can't sort of go sort of, you know, push in the door.

[William Durrenpool]

I think they, I think they occasionally have to enter it. And he doesn't mind that that's part of the deal.

[Anita Anand]

No, no, no, no. I mean that may be in the, in the film that, but actually they complain about the fact that they don't have easy access to him in his bedroom and they basically have to send his daughter in to say, look, he really needs to get up now and we need to talk to him about this pile of papers that's been sent to him anyway. But Anna's relationship with her father Roosevelt is different. If you say he was the same sphinx as we discussed in the last episode, he's unknowable even to his own.

[William Durrenpool]

There's a very nice quote about this.

[Anita Anand]

Yes, go on, go on, you do it. Go for it.

[William Durrenpool]

He doesn't know any man and no man knows him, writes Anna. Even his own family don't know anything about him.

[Anita Anand]

There is also a third daughter on this trip.

[William Durrenpool]

It's not Svetlana.

[Anita Anand]

No, it's not Svetlana. Svetlana's kept very far away from all of this. But it's a young woman called Kathleen Harriman who is the daughter of Averill Harriman, the American ambassador to Moscow, who's.

[William Durrenpool]

The most movie star looking of the three.

[Anita Anand]

She's a stunner. She is a stunner, absolutely. But she has sort of been in the forward welcoming party, you know, to make sure everything is okay for the arrival of the Big Two. And she describes in just such glorious detail the arrangements that are made because Yalta and Crimea have been bombed to death. They are a mess. These palaces have been gutted. The Nazis have taken a everything they've unscrewed door handles, light fittings, everything else. So there is this sort of mass wave of getting everything from the top Moscow hotels into these palaces to make them look lovely for the arrival of the Big Two.

[William Durrenpool]

And a lot of the stuff for the VIP still has the M monogram of the Metropole, which is the Savoy or the kind of. Or the Imperial Hotel of Moscow.

[Anita Anand]

But they've also kind of raided art galleries as well. And they've tried to make it homey. Yeah. So they've got in Churchills.

[William Durrenpool]

Half the Hermitage is there. Is it?

[Anita Anand]

They've got sort of British aristocrats that they've dug up from somewhere to put on the wall.

[William Durrenpool]

Oh, I think that actually the British aristocrats are native to the house. One of the. I think it was one of the Yusupovs or one of whatever princely family it was that had owned the house, had intermarried with the British aristocracy. So actually, funny enough, it's.

[Anita Anand]

Oh, they were there.

[William Durrenpool]

It's a portrait that was there already. Yeah.

[Anita Anand]

Well, that is interesting because I had.

[William Durrenpool]

Heard and Churchill's very excited by that.

[Anita Anand]

He's very excited by that. He likes it and he's very impressed. In fact, he really very much likes the place that he is, having made.

[William Durrenpool]

An enormous fuss about it in advance.

[Anita Anand]

Yeah. I mean, so he gets to stay at the Villa Vorontzov. It's a former residence of a prince, a fantasy castle. It's a mix of Moorish, Scottish baronial style. People are very rude about it.

[William Durrenpool]

Yes, it's fantastically rude.

[Anita Anand]

Description is this Alexander Cadogan. What did he say? Go. It's great.

[William Durrenpool]

He says it is a big house of indiscernible ugliness. A sort of Gothic Balmoral with all the furnishings of almost terrifying hideosity.

[Anita Anand]

I love that. Almost terrifying hideosity. And one of the things that people find particularly hideous about Vorontzov are these lions, these great carved lions which are outside. They're big and they're brash and they're in your face. But Churchill falls so in love with these lions that he tries to negotiate with the Russians that can I take it? Can I take one? Can I have one and take it home? I really, really like it.

[William Durrenpool]

There's another lovely description of this palace which does look very, very strange. And it's hard to imagine anything fulfilling this description, but the palace actually does. It's Swiss chalet meets mosque. So half of it's sort of half timber Tudor, the other half is sort of the Alhambra or some sort of.

[Anita Anand]

Orientalist fantasy the look of it is. But they're also. The amenities are a bit sparse. So going to the loo at the Ronsoff is an absolute nightmare. Sarah Churchill writes back to Clemmie saying, things are so bad you can see three field marshals queuing for a bucket whenever you look out of the window because the plumbing didn't work.

[William Durrenpool]

So some of it's sort of spectacularly grand and spectacularly fancy. And obviously the three presidents all have the working loos with all the amenities and furniture that's been sent down from the Metropole. But you've only got to go down two or three ranks below to the rank of field marshal to see people queuing for a bucket. Exactly.

[Anita Anand]

Or marshal go to the field. I mean, literally, it is that bad. In their epaulettes and a copy of a newspaper and a bog roll out into the gardens. It's not good. The American base, though, that's a grander affair. And again, again, this is like, you know, this is a flex of showing you your place, the Levadia Palace. Do you want to describe the Levadia?

[William Durrenpool]

Because that's. Well, there's one nice little detail just to show the hierarchy and barrier is in charge of this Stalin. They build a sort of incredible bunker below his palace where it has like 25ft, 25 meters of concrete so that even if a direct bomb hit the thing, Stalin would be fine in his office. The Americans get a bunker, but it's not gas proof and it's only two meters of concrete. And poor Churchill's not given a.

[Anita Anand]

Not a bunker at all. No bunker at all. Not even lose, but not even a bunker. Levadia palace is a much an Italianate mansion. It was Tsar Nicholas II's folly and he built it at ruinous expense. It's marble, it's gold it's yellow sapphire.

[William Durrenpool]

They look pretty good in the pictures, don't they?

[Anita Anand]

Yeah. Mythical beasts on bedposts. And Roosevelt was utterly thrilled with it. But it too only has one flushing toilet. And so the American Contingent, this is 16 colonels, had to share one room and they had to hastily build extra latrines in the garden.

[William Durrenpool]

And there's an epidemic of lice and bed bugs too. So a lot of all the girls, Churchill and Miss Harriman, are busy sort of popping bedbugs and lice on their mattresses in between all this sort of fantastic Gothic horror. But the nicest detail, if I may say, is Stalin is staying at the Yusupov palace. And we talked about Yusupov before he did in Rasputin, and he had been evacuated by Churchill from the Crimea at the end of the First World War, when Churchill in a previous incarnation, is Lord First High Admiral, whatever. What's the phrase?

[Anita Anand]

First Lord of the Admiralty.

[William Durrenpool]

First Lord of the Admiralty. That's the word I'm looking for, Felix. Yusupov is spirited. With the last of the Romanovs out from the Crimea, and Stalin must know this. The surviving Romanov great grand duchesses who hadn't been done in, plus Yusupov are rescued by a British frigate from exactly the key. A lot of this stuff is arriving from it. The guys who don't arrive by air have to come through the mine bob to waters of the Black Sea. And the Nazis just left all these mines littered. And so all the ADCs and the kind of support staff are coming by ship through the mines and landing at the very key that Churchill got Yusupov out of the Crimea in the previous round the end of the First World War.

[Anita Anand]

I mean, you also talked about the bedbugs. It is Avril Harriman's daughter. She has the Soviets spray the whole place with ddt, which in retrospect, may not have been much safer in the long run. But as well as the bugs in the beds, there are bugs everywhere. Stalin has put listening devices all over the place. And also, you know, they say that the flower beds are bugs, so you can't even go for a walk and have secret conversations because there's always somebody listening. And that's going to be very, very important, because that again, you know, with Burgess's help and also with the help of this mass surveillance, and even though they are trying to be so careful about not having secret conversations every evening of every day of the meetings in Yalta, Stalin will get his spies to Come and brief him personally. So this is late at night. He doesn't just want to know what they said, he wants to know how they said it. You know, did he raise his voice at this point? And he drills them and drills them. So the next day he knows what their negotiating positions might be. But just remind Everybody this is February 1945. Where are we in the war at the moment with.

[William Durrenpool]

So we are at this moment when, as we said in the last episode, because of the Ardennes offensive and then the cock up of the Arnhem Bridges, the Western forces have been held up while the Soviet forces have gone at double speed, having broken the back of the Red army retreating out of Stalingrad on the way back from the invasion of Russia. And by the time that all these guys are getting to their bedbugs and their buckets in Yalta, the Soviet army is only. Is it 50 miles, 40 miles?

[Anita Anand]

They're only 40 miles, 70 kilometers, 40 miles from Berlin.

[William Durrenpool]

And this had not been the plan at all when, you know, the idea was first set up. The hope was that the Allies would all be converging at roughly the same sort of time. But the Soviets have got the whole of Eastern Europe and this completely changes the reality on the ground behind all the negotiations. So they can negotiate all they like, but they know that not only are the Soviets not going to give up Eastern Europe, but that there's very little that the Americans and the British can do in terms of force. Even if they were willing to go to war again against their former ally, they're unlikely to be able to knock the Red army out of Eastern Europe, whatever happens. So they can wish they can negotiate, they can use as many tricks as they like. But the reality on the ground means that Yalta is almost certainly going to see the sealing of the fate of Eastern Europe, which will remain until 1989, which is to have it under the Russian thumb.

[Anita Anand]

But not just that. The whole of Eastern Europe will see this conference as the great betrayal of their future. And they all, just to remind you as we go to the break, everyone has their own agenda when they've come here. It isn't just about sort of, we are about to win the war now. We have to win the peace. Roosevelt wants the Soviets to help him with Japan. He wants his United Nations. Churchill, he entered the war because of Poland. So he's not very happy about the idea of Poland going just handed over on a tray to the Soviets. And he also does not trust the Soviets to be so close in Europe and wants spheres of influence to be created so that they are pushed back. And you've got Stalin who wants it all, everything that he's now occupying and actually has the upper hand in these negotiations. Let's take a break.

[William Durrenpool]

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[Anita Anand]

Welcome back. Okay, so the conference has like a, you know, mission statement, if you like. Churchill put it like this. He said, yata presents an immense task which will shape the organization of the world. So this, you know, they, they know that they've got quite a high mountain to climb.

[William Durrenpool]

And they have all obviously been allies and they've fought together and between them they have defeated the Nazis. But a new reality is rapidly making itself clear. The Soviets have Eastern Europe and Britain and America have pretty limited leverage at this point. And Churchill's particularly worried about this. Make no mistake, all the Balkans except Greeks are going to be Bolshevised. And his worry is that they're just gonna have a conference that basically put the seal of Western approval on all that. Stalin has already grabbed and taken by the force of the Red Army. And I think there's a sense also in which Churchill realizes that Stalin particularly dislikes him. Molotov regards Churchill as the strongest of the Western leaders and the smartest. But Stalin thinks that Churchill is a bore. He talks too much, he tries to dominate the conversation. He thinks that the British are deceptive, they're not trustworthy, and they trick their allies. This is an extraordinary line that Stalin uses to Milovan Gilas, the Yugoslav Communist Party he had on the eve of Yalta. And he says that perhaps you think that just because we are allies of the English that we have forgotten who they are and who Churchill is. They find nothing sweeter than to trick their allies. During the first World War, they constantly tricked the Russians and the French. And Churchill, you know the kind of guy Churchill is, if you don't watch him, he will slip a kopeck out of your pocket. Yes, a kopek out of your pocket, by God, a kopek out of your pocket. And Roosevelt, Roosevelt's not like that. He dips in his hand only for bigger coins. But Churchill, Churchill even for a kopeck. So that's a great quote with that.

[Anita Anand]

In mind, by the way, Churchill doesn't like Stalin either. And Churchill's really disturbed by, you know, that kind of vibe that happened in Tehran. And it is a weird vibe right from the get go at Yalta too. So America's ambassador to the Soviet Union, Avril Harriman describes this strange kind of static that's going on between the big three. He says, I think Stalin was afraid of Roosevelt. Whenever Roosevelt spoke, he would watch him with a certain awe. He was afraid of Roosevelt's influence in the world. But Stalin never displayed the same sense of awe when talking to Churchill. And Roosevelt again is sort of very keen to build on this bonhomie that he started with Stalin because he's got his own agenda. This is a sick man. And he's actually much sicker than anybody knows, maybe even than he knows. He doesn't have have much time left. I mean, he would have been shocked at how little time he has left. But he wants a legacy. So Roosevelt set himself up this target that he will be the man who gives the world the United Nations. That's his gift to the world. And come hell or high water, plus.

[William Durrenpool]

Japan mustn't forget that the Manhattan Project is progressing at this point. But the Americans are not at all clear that this bomb will work, that it will change the course. That we know in retrospect that of course the atomic bomb dropping on Hiroshima is going to change everything. But this is not clear at Yalta. And so the Americans are terrified. They've got another, you know, decade long war ahead with Japan.

[Anita Anand]

They've done death projections. And Roosevelt knows that no president can stay in office or have any kind of legacy if those mortality figures become a reality for, you know, GIs coming back.

[William Durrenpool]

And then we should also mention Stalin is obsessed with the fact understandably that 20 million Soviets have been killed in this war. 20 million Soviet war dead. And he wants to ensure a future that this can never happen again. And for the Russians this means building up a buffer zone in Eastern Europe that they control. So we could never have, as we had with Napoleon in the early 19th century, then again with Hitler, so again an understandable position. Russia had twice defeated Western European invasions and he doesn't want to be in this position ever again. And he's determined to protect his country as best he can. And his particular thing is to build up a Soviet controlled Poland that can never ever strike Russia in the back or be the means by which an army from the west can invade him.

[Anita Anand]

There's a fabulous quote here because Poland is also a red line for Churchill because it is the reason he entered the war. But Stalin says of that when they're talking about this behind the scenes. If Poland is a matter of honour for Britain, it is a matter of life and death, death for the Soviet Union. So there was going to be a problem here.

[William Durrenpool]

And the final thing is that growing up in Britain, as Anita and I both did, we've been weaned on this idea of the British American alliance which is so much part of the article of faith until Trump since this period. But if you actually read what Roosevelt says and does at Yalta, there's absolutely no sense that he regards Churchill as his closest ally, his distant cousin, his best friend, any of that. There's actually a. Roosevelt thinks that Churchill talks too much, bangs on.

[Anita Anand]

But it's mutual, Willi. I mean, you know, just remember Churchill flew to Moscow without Roosevelt and came up with his naughty list. You know, so there's, there's, you know, this brotherhood is an odd situation. Shoulder to shoulder, not quite. Maybe back to back, you know, I don't know. Look, we've talked about sort of their entourages. It's interesting as well that you know, one of the people that is in the American, I mean you can tell us a little bit about mo of, but I'll tell you about Stettinius, who is the Secretary of State. Stettinius, I should say, because he's a businessman, he's a man who knows a deal, senior executive of General Motors and then US Steel. So he knows how to deal with people. He knows how to be charming and effective in a room, but he's not, he's not a political beast. And some actually say that he was too loyal to Roosevelt and kind of was a bit of a yes man when he should have been saying, you know what? Actually you're trusting Stalin an awful lot. You're thinking that Stalin is going along with things, and I don't think that he is. Which another man might have said in his stead, but he was not that man. And Molotov, and we've sort of mentioned his name. Tell us a bit more about Molotov.

[William Durrenpool]

Before we go to Molotov. Just this whole thing of having the head of General Motors there at the Yalta conference. I mean, we might imagine.

[Anita Anand]

Well, no, he's Secretary of State. No, he wasn't the head of General Motors when he went to Yalta. He was the Secretary of State.

[William Durrenpool]

Understood. Just this business of having major corporate figures in positions of power does not begin with Trump. Exactly. That there is this sort of precedence in American politics, which I have to say I was not particularly aware of, that there is long tradition of this.

[Anita Anand]

And Molotov. Molotov has this reputation as being stone ass is what his nickname is in diplomatic circles. Stone ass because he is immovable. Once he likes saying no 90% of the time. And once he says no, you cannot move his stone ass from that position.

[William Durrenpool]

Now, the irony, long after Yalta is that Molotov has a spectacular fall from grace. And Stalin just decides one day to get rid of him. And he sends his wife, who is Jewish, to the Gulag, partly out of antisemitism, apparently. And Molotov himself, who. Who rose from, I think his father was a storekeeper, a provincial storekeeper, and rose to power, is just dismissed in a day. And anyone who's at Yalta would never have guessed this. Cause apparently he's this hardliner who's. Stalin's the voice of Stalin, Stalin's right hand man. But things are much more delicate than they appear. And Stalin, like Trump, can just get out of bed one day and end someone's career on a whim.

[Anita Anand]

I'm just gonna tell you one sort of quick story about Stalin playing Roosevelt, just as Roosevelt thinks he's playing Stalin. So this is, you know, sort of the day of the first meeting, and Stalin goes to visit both Churchill and Roosevelt in their respective billets, these very grand places. And Roosevelt welcomes Stalin with this sort of charm offensive because he likes mixing a dry martini. That's what he does. It's his signature. He mixes a dry martini for his very, very special guests. And he hands it over to Stalin and he says, I'm really very sorry, because actually, a really good martini ought to have a twisted lemon in it. But. And he Sort of does this little coy smile. He goes, but, you know, we'll make do. And Stalin doesn't say anything, has his drink, smiles, goes off and see you tonight as well, you know, gonna have our first plenary session. And also I'd like you to chair the meeting, which is a great honor because it's, you know, it's Stalin's invitation, it's Stalin's backyard. But he wants Roosevelt to chair the meeting. The next day, an enormous lemon tree appears at the Levadia palace, which he has had flown over from Georgia overnight, so that Roosevelt will always have a twist of lemon. And it said its branches were laden with 200 ripe lemons. But another thing to read into this whole thing of, you know, I would love you, Roosevelt, to chair the plenary section. It's a really shrewd move by Stalin, because if he's chairing, he can't comment as much as if he were a delegate. So in a way, an honour also neuters the most powerful man in the world, the American president, because he can't wade in. So it is now Stalin in the red corner, Churchill in the blue corner, and Roosevelt kind of stuck in the middle, which is going to be sort of an untenable situation in the middle the of. Of this conference.

[William Durrenpool]

But there's also, in this meeting, a hint also of what we've been talking about, this surprising degree of distance that Roosevelt puts between himself and Churchill. We imagine them to be close allies, certainly the Brits always imagine them to be close allies. But here is what Roosevelt says of Churchill. They are funny people, the British. They always want to have their cake and eat it too, which is quite a disloyal role.

[Anita Anand]

Oh, no. He slags Churchill off behind his back. It is disloyal. Anyway. Five o' clock, Grand Ballroom, Lavadia Palace. It's going to be the first session. The us, British and Soviet photographers are all falling over themselves. There's a motion picture camera all trying to get the delegates arrival. An aide pushes Roosevelt into the ballroom in his wheelchair, and nobody is allowed to take pictures of that. Every single time the cameras are allowed anywhere near him, he has to already be seated, so he's always the first to arrive. Churchill arrives in a colonel's uniform and he comes wearing this Russian hat. It's a very Boris Johnson kind of move, isn't it, really? You know, he wears the Russian hat and you've got sort of others, like General Antonov, head of the Soviet military delegation. He gives the first situation report of how close they are to Berlin. They get their strategic updates from their different members of military staff. So, you know, the first, first meeting is basically, look, we are on the verge of taking Berlin. That's where we are. These are the oil supplies. This is what we need from you. This is what we need from you. Talking about their robot bombs and rockets, the V2s, the first ballistic missiles. And huge maps are produced of Berlin and who's going to get what. And they're talking about, look, we're going to get to the nitty gritty and street by street of what we're going to do with a divided Berlin. But there is one quarter that is missing. So you've got the three of them saying, okay, we're going to carve up this way, that way. The Russians are going to have a slightly strange, bulging part of Berlin. We might get to that later. But the French aren't there. And actually, that is a thing that Churchill is going to lobby for because he has got de Gaulle sitting in London. He knows that he needs an ally in that part of Europe and France is nearby and owes loyalty to Britain. Britain gave him harbour during the war. He also has the Polish government in exile sitting in London as well. But none of that. We're not going to talk about that right now because we need to get on for the first night. So it's sort of a preliminary thing. Situation reports how quickly it stuns the rest of the Allies at how quickly the Russians are about to arrive in Berlin, much faster than anybody else. And they already start talking about, okay, let's talk about what we're going to talk about at Yalta. Let's talk about this map and how we're going to divide it up. Churchill sort of slips in. I think we need to talk about the French having a presence here. Okay, no, they're not at this meeting, but they ought to have some part of Berlin. We can put a pin in that and come back.

[William Durrenpool]

Stalin immediately says, why should we let the French in? He regards the French as these sort of. They did nothing. They caved into the Nazis.

[Anita Anand]

But, you know, and then they have this massive banquet in the evening. It's all gone fine, you know, and it's just so completely over the top this first night. You know, champagne, vodka, five types of wine and the toasts. It's like being in one of those Viking halls where, you know, they just keep trying. And I would like to say, you know, you are the greatest that I have ever seen. No, but your laugh is so quite marvelous.

[William Durrenpool]

Stalin tries out his bits of the American movies he's heard and starts suddenly comes out with, what the hell goes on around here? And you said it, you said it.

[Anita Anand]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually, Roosevelt, it is unlike Roosevelt because he kind of lets down his guard and he tells Stalin, oh, well, you know what we call you in America? We call you Uncle Joe, thinking he's going to take this really well.

[William Durrenpool]

And Starlin is not delighted by this.

[Anita Anand]

Nope, not delighted at all. But look, the first day, that's fine. They've got the agenda for the next few days. They're sort of swaying back to their own places. The only person who's not actually swaying is Stalin. Stalin is said to be watering down his vodka drinks and nobody knows it, that they're all knocking back and toast. No to you, Mr. Churchill. No to you, Mr. Roosevelt. And they are completely, you know, sort of creating one of the greatest hangovers Europe has ever known. But Stalin is not. He's drinking water in between every drink and watching everybody very carefully. And watching him is Anthony Eden on the British side. And he says, stalin's attitude to small country strikes me as grim, not to say sinister. They have seven days of this to get through.

[William Durrenpool]

So that's it. But if you want to join the club, you can hear next week's episode. Now the club is available. We have our wonderful magazine, advanced ticket bookings, all the treats that you could possibly want associated with Empire Pod and you will be our best friends forever and come and see us at our annual gathering in London, which we're planning anyway.

[Anita Anand]

Oh, my God. This is a thing that you've just come up with and I feel like.

[William Durrenpool]

I like this idea.

[Anita Anand]

Threatening than welcoming. I know you do. I know you're just trying to force it onto the agenda. Look, if you would like to have a drink with us, let us know. You don't have to. This is a William thing that's just come up.

[William Durrenpool]

I'm going to be left with all our listeners alone. I can see holidays, Jimmy.

[Anita Anand]

No, mate. Dropping up a bar while everyone else has got better things to do.

[William Durrenpool]

So if you want to join up, you have to go to empirepod uk.com. that's a. And so goodbye from me, William Durrenpool.

[Anita Anand]

And it's goodbye from me, Anita Anand. Before you go, can we tell you about something really exciting?

[William Durrenpool]

Have you ever heard an ad on this podcast and thought, hang on, my brand would be way better here than whatever they are nattling on about?

[Anita Anand]

I mean, it's bold of you, but you might be right. And here's the thing, you can actually make that happen. Make the dream Imagine your brand front and center on Empire and other shows across the Goal Hanger network.

[William Durrenpool]

If you don't know who Goal Hanger is, they are the producers of this show. And if you're looking to get the brand right into the center of everybody's routines, they are the people you want to talk to.

[Anita Anand]

If you're curious, just head over to goalhanger.com that's goalhanger H-A N G E R dot com.