Empire Podcast: Episode 258 - "The Big Three & The Big Carve Up (Ep 3)"

Release Date: May 26, 2025
Hosts: William Durrenpool and Anita Anand
Podcast Series: Empire by Goalhanger
Description: Exploring the rise and fall of empires through pivotal historical events and influential figures.

Introduction: Setting the Stage

In Episode 258 of Empire, titled "The Big Three & The Big Carve Up (Ep 3)", hosts William Durrenpool and Anita Anand delve into the intricate dynamics of the Yalta Conference, a pivotal moment near the end of World War II. This episode meticulously unpacks the interactions among the "Big Three" leaders—President Franklin D. Roosevelt of the United States, Prime Minister Winston Churchill of the United Kingdom, and Premier Joseph Stalin of the Soviet Union—and examines how their negotiations shaped the geopolitical landscape of the post-war world.

Arrival and Initial Impressions

The episode opens with a vivid portrayal of the leaders' arrivals at the Yalta Conference:

• Winston Churchill ([02:00]): Arrives with characteristic swagger, cigar in hand, exuding confidence and readiness.

• Franklin D. Roosevelt ([02:00]): Enters the conference in a wheelchair, a symbol of his vulnerability which he insists remains concealed. "He asked his hosts not to photograph him being lowered onto the tarmac, preferring images of him to be seen driving off in a car" ([02:15]).

• Joseph Stalin ([02:00]): Makes a more subdued entrance, sending Vyacheslav Molotov as his representative, signaling a controlled and strategic approach.

A notable moment: Roosevelt's dignified yet vulnerable entrance contrasts sharply with Churchill's brash demeanor, setting the tone for their interactions.

Leader Dynamics and Relationships

The interplay between the leaders is a focal point:

• Churchill vs. Roosevelt ([02:55]): Churchill attempts to assert dominance by seeking private discussions, which Roosevelt resists to avoid being beholden to his British ally. "The Americans, very much their own men, are not wanting to be beholden to their wartime ally" ([03:00]).

• Stalin's Security Obsession ([04:15]): Stalin's paranoia is evident, having purged his party and implemented strict security protocols to prevent assassination attempts or espionage. "They put down incredibly strict protocols about the arrival patterns of the aircraft" ([04:20]).

Quote Highlight:
"He doesn't know any man and no man knows him," writes Anna Roosevelt about her father ([12:34]).

The Yalta Venue and Logistics

The logistical challenges and state of the Yalta Conference's venues are meticulously described:

• Villa Vorontsov ([14:01]): Stalin's residence at Yalta, described as an architectural mishmash of "Swiss chalet meets mosque," reflects both opulence and operational deficiencies. "Alexander Cadogan described it as a big house of indiscernible ugliness" ([14:19]).

• Levadia Palace ([16:48]): The American contingent's base, lavish yet plagued with inadequate facilities like limited flushing toilets and pest infestations. "They had to hastily build extra latrines in the garden" ([17:33]).

• Overall Condition: Both palaces, severely damaged from previous bombings, are being hastily refurbished with items from Moscow's top hotels and art galleries. "The Nazis had taken everything—the door handles, light fittings," ([13:40]).

Quote Highlight:
"Things are so bad you can see three field marshals queuing for a bucket whenever you look out of the window because the plumbing didn't work," Sarah Churchill notes ([15:50]).

Personal Anecdotes and Interactions

The personal lives and anecdotes of the leaders and their entourages add depth to the narrative:

• Churchill's Recitals ([08:34]): Despite his illness, Churchill entertains himself and his daughter by reciting Byron's Don Juan during arduous travels.

• Sarah Churchill ([09:55]): Acts as Churchill's aide de camp, managing logistics and social engagements, reflecting her crucial yet often overlooked role.

• Anna Roosevelt ([12:42]): Roosevelt's daughter, a former journalist, shares a close and teasing relationship with her father, contrasting with the formal demeanor of other members.

Quote Highlight:
"He doesn't know any man and no man knows him," Anna Roosevelt reflects on her father's enigmatic personality ([12:34]).

Negotiations and Agendas

The core of the episode examines the conflicting objectives and power plays during the conference:

• Stalin's Dominance: With the Soviet Union controlling Eastern Europe and advancing rapidly towards Berlin, Stalin holds significant leverage. "They know that the Soviets are not going to give up Eastern Europe" ([21:02]).

• Churchill's Concerns: Focused on preventing Soviet dominance, Churchill advocates for Western spheres of influence and is wary of Stalin's intentions. He also pushes for French representation in post-war Berlin, citing Britain's support during the war ([24:23]).

• Roosevelt's Vision: Aiming to establish the United Nations and secure Soviet assistance against Japan, Roosevelt's agenda is threatened by the immediate realities of Soviet military advancements.

Quote Highlight:
"For Poland, what is a matter of honour for Britain, is a matter of life and death for the Soviet Union." ([28:42]).

Daily Proceedings and Social Events

The social dynamics and day-to-day activities reveal underlying tensions:

• Banquets and Toasts ([37:14]): Lavish evening events contrast with the strategic gravity of the negotiations, with Stalin discreetly consuming water amidst heavy drinking by others.

• Stalin's Vigilance ([38:08]): Unlike his counterparts, Stalin maintains a disciplined demeanor, observing and analyzing every interaction carefully.

• Mixed Signals: Roosevelt's attempt to build rapport by nicknaming Stalin "Uncle Joe" falls flat, highlighting the cultural and personal disconnects ([37:41]).

Quote Highlight:
"If you don't watch him, he will slip a kopeck out of your pocket." - Stalin on British deceit ([26:14]).

Underlying Tensions and Trust Issues

Trust and mutual respect are notably absent among the leaders:

• Churchill and Stalin ([26:14]): Churchill harbors deep distrust towards Stalin, viewing Soviet intentions as deceptive and expansionist.

• Roosevelt's Isolation ([29:00]): Contrary to popular belief in a close Anglo-American alliance, Roosevelt does not consider Churchill his closest ally. Both leaders share mutual reservations, undermining the supposed camaraderie.

• Stalin's Paranoia: His extensive security measures and surveillance signify a lack of trust even among the Allies, ensuring he remains in control of the narrative.

Quote Highlight:
"They find nothing sweeter than to trick their allies." - Stalin referencing British deceit ([26:14]).

Impact and Conclusions

The episode concludes by reflecting on the long-term repercussions of the Yalta Conference:

• Eastern Europe's Fate ([21:54]): The conference effectively seals the future of Eastern Europe under Soviet influence, laying the groundwork for the Cold War and the Iron Curtain.

• British Empire's Decline ([24:23]): Yalta symbolizes the beginning of Britain's diminished role on the global stage, transitioning from imperial dominance to a more constrained international position.

• Legacy of the Leaders: Roosevelt's vision of the United Nations is overshadowed by the immediate and pressing realities of Soviet expansion, while Churchill's concerns about Soviet dominance proved prescient.

Final Insight:
The Yalta Conference, as dissected in this episode, serves as a critical juncture where the ambitions and mistrust among the Allies set the stage for the geopolitical tensions that would dominate the latter half of the 20th century.

Notable Quotes

1. Anna Roosevelt on Her Father:
   "He doesn't know any man and no man knows him." ([12:34])

2. Sarah Churchill on Venue Conditions:
   "Things are so bad you can see three field marshals queuing for a bucket whenever you look out of the window because the plumbing didn't work." ([15:50])

3. Stalin on British Deceit:
   "They find nothing sweeter than to trick their allies." ([26:14])

4. Roosevelt's Observation on Policymaking:
   "Japan mustn't forget that the Manhattan Project is progressing at this point." ([27:21])

Conclusion

Episode 258 of Empire provides a comprehensive and engaging analysis of the Yalta Conference, highlighting the complex interplay of personalities, strategic agendas, and geopolitical maneuvers among the Big Three. Through detailed storytelling and insightful commentary, hosts William Durrenpool and Anita Anand elucidate how these high-stakes negotiations not only determined the immediate post-war order but also set the foundation for subsequent global power structures and conflicts.

For those unacquainted with the episode, this summary offers a thorough understanding of the critical discussions and historical significance encapsulated in "The Big Three & The Big Carve Up."