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- [00:01]
Anita Arnan
If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter. Sign up to empire club@www.empirepoduk.com.
- [00:19]
William Durand
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- [00:51]
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music and fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more.
- [01:18]
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- [02:00]
Hello and welcome to Empire with me.
- [02:03]
Anita Arnan
Anita Arnan and me, William Durimple.
- [02:06]
William Durand
So day one of the Yalta Conference. It's tetchy, it's tense. They've all sort of stated their positions of what they want to get out of it. Day two they're going to have to start negotiating how it's all going to work. It starts the day grimly in the American space at the Levadia palace because Anna's really worried about her father's health. So right from the get go, everybody's smoking like a chimney around the table and he's already got a weak chest and is not feeling well and his coughing is kind of out of control and his cardiologist has told Anna that he is in a really precarious situation. You know, there's talk of hypertension which Leaves him tired and tetchy, makes it difficult for him to concentrate. And when he's being pushed around in his wheelchair, every jostle and jolt on the sort of war torn tarmac from the landing strip to the actual venue is just making him feel worse and worse. Anna writes to her husband about her dad saying his ticker situation is far more serious than I ever knew. And it's truly worrisome. There's not a hell of a lot anyone can do. And knowing how sensitive the information could be if it gets out to the American public, she says, better tear off and destroy this paragraph.
- [03:16]
Anita Arnan
Obviously he didn't that spies.
- [03:19]
William Durand
So Roosevelt's though determined to carry on. It's going to be this day that he is going to start making his proposals for the United nations and how it would work. And you know, they've discussed it already in Tehran. He just needs to get them over the line, the Soviets over the line, and then that will be his huge legacy. Also actually, now people are looking back saying he was not the man to be at Yalta, he was not the man to handle these negotiations. He shouldn't have been doing it at all. He had a duty to tell his people how ill he was. There's a historian called Robert Hugh Ferrell who's written a book called the Dying President and he accuses Roosevelt of going to enormous lengths to hide his health situation not just from the big two, but also from his own people. And enlisting the FBI director, J. Edgar Hoover to cover up as well. Truman, when he does replace him, eventually will have to play catch up with very few briefings from Roosevelt in his head of where he was and what the conversations were.
- [04:20]
Anita Arnan
Did Roosevelt dislike Truman or was it, was he not telling him because he didn't like him or didn't trust him or just wanted to pretend he was fine?
- [04:29]
William Durand
I mean, I'm no expert on their dynamics, but he, you know, if you care about your position, it behoves you whether you hate his guts or not, to inform him. You have to tell him. But by doing that, he would have given away more than he wanted to. The Sphinx doesn't give away how ill he is. There's a really odd story about his medical records going missing from the official record. No one's able to find them. They're missing. How interesting they're missing. They're just all those documents have gone. Anyway, so Roosevelt's struggling to get on with business as usual. Churchill starts the day in bed, which he sort of stays in as usual. Yeah, but he's in a really dark mood. So you know, there's a dark mood at the American base camp and there is a dark, terrible dark mood because Churchill, who is not allowed to receive top, top secret documents, they've already said, you know, actually anything that's very sensitive should not be sent to Yalta. There must be a better way of getting him information because the Soviets are all over everything, they're bugging everything, they're reading everything. So. But he does get news of a worrying development in Greece which is another place that he's really very worried that the communist sphere of influence is going to press in and shrink sort of in his mind free thinking Europe even further. And this isn't actually Russian direct intervention. There's been a civil war going on in Greece, you know, two sides fighting to stop a communist one, a communist side and the other.
- [05:56]
Anita Arnan
And there are British troops in this war, aren't there? Wonderful old English teacher at school, her husband fought in this war and I think as did the young Paddy Lee Fermor.
- [06:08]
William Durand
Is that right?
- [06:09]
Anita Arnan
Patrick Lee Fermor took part in this famous cavalry charge which there's a number of cavalry charges, it's always said to be the last cavalry charge in history. And one of them is in the Greek Civil War. Elas, the Greek People's Army.
- [06:20]
William Durand
Liberation army, that's it exactly right. And just a few weeks before Yalta happens, Elas, the Greek People's Liberation army had taken the north and the west of, of Greece. The British had launched an offensive against them and had taken Athens previously. But now it was all looking decidedly shaky.
- [06:38]
Anita Arnan
And remember on the naughty list, Churchill had tried to keep Greece within the Western and British sphere of influence and not have it go over to the communists. But the communists have got their own momentum now.
- [06:54]
William Durand
They've got their momentum. And also Churchill is reading in this dispatch that has got to him that Ilas, that the communists are interning over a thousand British civilians and 15,000 well to do Greeks and thousands of these prisoners will eventually die from beatings, forced marches and exposure. So he is going to go into this negotiation in a hideous mood because even though it's not the Russians, the communist support is for communists and so he does not trust them and he's losing Greece. So look, let's talk in a bit more detail about day two because it's the real hard work is going to begin on day two. And I mentioned sort of maps had been produced on the first day where they looked now they were going to go through the nitty gritty of these maps, and they had these enormous things that were produced and, you know, rolled out over vast tables, and they literally took Sharpies to these things. So what the Soviets want is they want a dismantling of Germany so that Germany will almost be sort of divided out of existence and that they will never, ever, ever be able to rise again. And actually, Roosevelt's like, you know, can we talk less about the destruction? Because he sees how much this annoys Churchill. Churchill's really worried about destabilizing central Europe. He's much more in favor of denazification of Germany, not destroying it or whipping it into the dust, because that will cause an enormous amount of resentment. They may rise up again. You give them a grievance, they will fight. You give them a way out, they will turn on their leaders. You know, the war is not won yet. So he's saying, you know, look, why are you talking like this? Stalin's very keen to sort of even put it out there that we're going to destroy and dismantle Germany. And Churchill's sort of saying to him, that's a stupid strategy. It's just going to make them fight harder. Basically, William, they get their Sharpies out, they divide Germany into three. And although Berlin is in the Soviet controlled zone and in is the capital, they also decide that they're going to divide that city into three so that, you know, so basically what you've got is a pie within a pie with slices out of it. And while they're drawing the map, there is a problem with the Soviet bit. They want to have this line drawn through the capital, and it sort of takes in all the heritage buildings, city hall, parliament, you know, the most imposing bits of Berlin, and everyone's fine. If you want that, take it. But there's this bulge in there, not quadrant, because it's only three at the time, which will sort of lead to the Red army being almost sort of surrounding another quarter. And Churchill's dead against this. And so, you know, you've got already a lack of agreement. And then Churchill throws in. And by the way, what about the French? You can't not have the French. I mentioned this yesterday. Nobody wanted to talk about it. Can we talk about it today? We really need to have the French here. And Roosevelt again, you know, in his position as chairman of this meeting, is trying to calm things down. He throws into the conversation. This is a really weird thing that he does on day two. He says, okay, look, look, we can talk about the French in a moment, but can I just also say that we probably won't stay in Europe much more than two years. And Churchill is dumbfounded. Like, what? You're not going to stay beyond two years. Hang on a minute. How is this a permanent solution to keeping peace in Europe? And if you're not going to stay, then what happens to your bit?
- [10:18]
Anita Arnan
Stalin is pricking up his years at this point.
- [10:22]
William Durand
Right, okay. This is music to his ears. So then it becomes even more imperative for Churchill to get the French involved. They must be given a zone of occupation. They must be a full member of this Allied Control Commission that will administer a defeated Germany. Says Churchill, I'm just not having this.
- [10:40]
Anita Arnan
And Stalin is completely contemptuous of the French. He says, why should France, which in his words open the gates to the enemy, deserve a place in Berlin?
- [10:51]
William Durand
Yeah. And Roosevelt lets Churchill down again. So he sort of arms and arms. He doesn't back him up. He still needs his United nations and his war against Japan. And it's worth sort of saying what's happened to General de Gaulle? Because he's not invited to Yalta or later. He won't be invited to the Point Potsdam Conference either. And that is a diplomatic slight which the French feel will not forget. They won't forget. He had fled to London after the fall of France and famously, three days after the Nazis marched in on June 17, he has borrowed a friend's apartment at number 3 Curzon Square and drafted a passionate call to arms to the French to rise up and fight. Rise up.
- [11:33]
Anita Arnan
You sent me a wonderful picture, Anita, of him with his sort of wonderful 1930s, 1940s microphone, making the great address to the French people from Curzon Street, Curzon Square.
- [11:44]
William Durand
I, General de Gaulle, now in London, call on all French officers and men who are not present on British soil or maybe in the future, with or without arms. I call on all engineers, skilled workmen from the armaments factories who are at present on British soil or maybe in the future, get in touch with me. I guess he's going to. The rebellion starts now from Curzon Square. And Stalin just says, you know, just, I don't care. I do not care about the French. The French are not important. They are cowards. They deserve nothing.
- [12:16]
Anita Arnan
And Churchill is completely furious.
- [12:18]
William Durand
He says, absolutely livid.
- [12:20]
Anita Arnan
Stalin talks of France as a country without a past. Does he not know her history? Just like anyone that knows the Middle East. Just every time they hear Trump just talk about creating a Riviera in Gaza or something. Have they no idea of the history of this place?
- [12:36]
William Durand
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, Stalin doesn't care. He doesn't care. And Stalin also sees a potential to make a deal here because there's something that he wants as well. He wants maximum reparations from Germany. You talked about how many lives had been lost, Soviet lives had been lost during the war. But they've also, you know, they're almost bankrupted by the war effort as well. So they have this like kind of weird thing that Molotov and he have decided to do this kind of Laurel and Hardy show at the conference where one will be good cop and one will be bad cop. And it's always Molotov is going to be the bad cop. And Stalin is going to say, relax, Molotov.
- [13:14]
Anita Arnan
Remember, don't ask who said that.
- [13:16]
William Durand
The British is his nickname. Yeah. So they do this thing where he says, okay, look, just everyone relax about France. Churchill's still digesting this announcement from Roosevelt that they're only going to stay for two years and that's completely wrong footed. Everybody in the British contingent just stop letting us down. You're meant to be our allies, America. And so instead Steiner says, let's talk about reparations. And he turns to Molotov and says very pointedly, let's talk about reparations. And Molotov kind of mutters to him, five or ten, and Stalin just says ten. And it's $10 billion that he wants. He doesn't think it's realistic. It's a game. You'll get towards what you want. And at this point when they say that's ridiculous, Churchill says 10 billion. They don't even have 10 billion. Where are you even getting these numbers? These numbers don't make any sense. Stalin does something that's very unstalin because he's always the one who sort of pushes Molotov to do the unpopular positions. He gets up on his feet and he starts gesticulating wildly saying, do you think that we don't deserve reparations for all that we have done? And Churchill says, look, you're bleeding Germany dry. Don't you remember after the First World War? And if you do bleed Germany dry, who's going to pay for food? A phantom starving Germany, he calls it. That's what you want to. And it starts getting really very bad tempered.
- [14:42]
Anita Arnan
He says if you want a horse to pull your wagon, you have to give him some hay, right?
- [14:47]
William Durand
And that's right, but care should be taken that the horse does not turn around and kick you, says Stalin. So it's turning into like a real sort of mess.
- [14:55]
Anita Arnan
I love this detail here, that Soviet ambassador to the us, Andrei Gromyko, realises that he can tell how tense Churchill is by counting the number of cigar stubs in his ashtray. And that Churchill's cigar per hour is the kind of the heartbeat of Churchill's anxiety.
- [15:17]
William Durand
So Churchill, in between, sort of smoking, numerous, very frustrated. And he's quite alone here. Remember, you know, it says, okay, look, we'll get a commission on this. 10 billion is just nuts. We'll have a US, UK, Soviet Commission and we'll look at reparations. And then Stalin says, yes, okay, but the three powers who have made the most sacrifices must have the first claim. And Churchill says, what about the smaller countries? They've also suffered. What about, you know, reparations for them? You know, they've lost people, they've fought. And he quotes Marx. Churchill does at this point, and he says, each according to his needs. Remember Chairman Stalin. And Stalin snaps, I prefer another principle. Each according to his deserts.
- [15:59]
Anita Arnan
One wonders when it was that Churchill actually read Marx.
- [16:03]
William Durand
Oh, I'm sure he had. He's a very. Well, I'm sure he had. I mean, you know, I'm sure he had as a given. So Roosevelt is like, now it's sort of turning into a bit of a. Of a bun fight across the table. And he says, okay, look, we must have somewhere we can compromise here. And so Stalin, in this act of largesse, which is not largesse at all, says, you know what? I'm not willing to compromise on reparations. That's what we are going to get. 10 billion is what we're going to get. That's it. My final word. But if you want the French to have a bit of Berlin, I'm willing to do that, but they take it out of your bits.
- [16:44]
Anita Arnan
To the Americans, he's but the best negotiator. You can't read about Yeltsa without coming out thinking with increased respect for at least Stalin's canniness and shrewdness at the negotiating table.
- [16:57]
William Durand
So Roosevelt says, that sounds really reasonable. Okay, we'll do that. Churchill's like, wait, what?
- [17:02]
Anita Arnan
And they all begin to worry, even on the American side. Harry Hopkins, who's the chief foreign policy advisor at this point, is aware, like Churchill is, that Roosevelt's caving in to all of Stalin's demands. Again, not what you'd expect. This is not what I was reading.
- [17:16]
William Durand
About, this special relationship. My shoe. Yeah.
- [17:20]
Anita Arnan
And he argues that it's a political impossibility to endeavor to administer Germany without the participation of France, hereditary enemy and neighbor and our oldest friends. So Hopkins is pushing alongside Germany.
- [17:32]
William Durand
What are you doing, Roosevelt? What are you doing? And it's a bad day as well because the timing of this is just perfect. Time magazine on that very day has run a front page cover of Stalin being the man of the moment and speaking to his daughter, Churchill, who knows about this Time magazine cover and everything that's just been caved into. And suddenly France is getting something but out of their quarters. And it looks like the Red army might actually, you know, surround other quadrants. This is kind of not what we wanted. This is not right. He says to his daughter. I do not suppose that it any moment in history has the agony of the world been so great or so widespread. Tonight the sun goes down on more suffering than ever before.
- [18:18]
Anita Arnan
It's a very gloomy Churchill. It's not at all the Churchill with the bottle of Bollinger that we sometimes imagine. He's a very gloomy man at this point.
- [18:25]
William Durand
Yeah. So, I mean, the talks are really hard. And as you say, Stalin seems to have the upper hand all the time. And certainly in the American dispatches, they are admiring of Stalin's negotiating style. They also know when they're being played. They know this sort of Molotov Stalin double act is a double act. They know who's really calling the shots. But they're impressed by all of it the next day. This is just kind of a cute little aside. Okay, so you've got lots of descriptions from everybody about how ridiculous and over the top the food is given to each of the camps. So, you know, there's caviar for breakfast every morning. And this is actually getting completely on everyone's nerves.
- [19:01]
Anita Arnan
The rights are a problem. To have too much caviar.
- [19:03]
William Durand
There's a helping source of caviar for each person in the first course of breakfast every day. Followed by herring, bread, fruit and tea. And the menu never varies. And it's so bad because there's a very senior American military man who's very aptly named General Marshall. Yeah, Nominative disturbance test fish.
- [19:20]
Anita Arnan
And he's allergic to.
- [19:21]
William Durand
Allergic to shellfish. Yeah, can't eat shellfish. And so all he can eat during altar, which just adds to his tetchiness. A stack of jumbo sized Hershey bars that he's brought with him. Cause he can't eat anything. But they do decide on this day before they go and convene for their evening session of talks. And maybe just to change the scene and maybe just to be able to have a chat without the pressures of the conference looming, that they're going to go and have a look at Sebastopol. And you know, Sarah Churchill says Churchill's really keen to see, you know, the location of the famous Charge of the Light Brigade. But as they're searching for it, they come across a, a human skeleton on the ground. And it's just a complete sort of shock into reality that they are in the middle of a war. They have got to get this agreed. They have only got four more days to agree to some really important things because then the Russians are going to take Berlin and there's no point talking anything at all. The Russians can just dictate whatever they like. And they look around and they sort of see, you know, around this area where the chart of the Light Be Brigade took place and they see this hulk of a downed aircraft and burned out tanks and row upon row shells and bomb craters. And Sarah says, it's so very strange how history can repeat itself under a different guy. So it is gloomy. The British camp is gloomy.
- [20:43]
Anita Arnan
Not so far from where shell holes are still peppering bits of Ukraine a short distance over the, over the causeway.
- [20:51]
William Durand
And, you know, good time to remind people, Crimea since 2014 is in Russian control. Putin has it. So anyway, do you want to take us to the fourth plenary session with Roosevelt actually raising the issue of Poland? Someone who doesn't want to annoy Stalin, he has to go straight in and talk about Poland and it's not a comfortable conversation.
- [21:13]
Anita Arnan
So the item in the agenda that everyone knows is going to be the worst ticking point is Poland, because the Soviets now have total control. The British have sitting in London, an entire Polish government in exile. And the Soviets have a, have a Soviet backed government that they've already set up and which is in power. And so there's no room for General Sikorsky, the leader of the Polish government in exile, the Polish equivalent of General De Gaulle, also in London, to come in and have his slice of the cake. And they've got somehow on this day to hammer out some sort of compromise that will allow both the Soviets and the Western Americans and British to feel that they've reached some sort of compromise on Poland. But it's not going to be easy. Anita, what happens?
- [22:02]
William Durand
First of all, they say, look, can we just get some people from your Soviet Lublin administration to be here to talk about this and how we can carry this forward? And the Soviets say, well, we can't reach them, we can't find them to get them into these talks. So we can't agree to anything formally.
- [22:16]
Anita Arnan
Clearly improbable.
- [22:17]
William Durand
Yeah, absolute bullshit. But, you know, we can't have them, so we can't really agree on their behalf because we need to talk to them and we haven't been able to talk to them. And Roosevelt, after much haggling, says, okay, look, we're willing to just put that we need a broadly democratic government which will include representatives from both the exiled London government and the Soviet backed Lublin government. Would that be okay, starting going? Sure, sure, yeah. That's like a meaningless statement. It'll be broadly democratic, that's fine. But I want to talk about something else broadly democratic. We can do that, no problem. You can put my little blue tick next to that. That's absolutely fine. But since we're talking about Poland, I'd quite like to talk about where Poland.
- [23:07]
Anita Arnan
Is to move the borders a little.
- [23:10]
William Durand
Yeah, just move it. You can see where they're coming from as well. You can see where everyone's coming from. He does not want to be invaded again by anybody. And so he needs a buffer zone, a sphere of influence that surrounds his interests.
- [23:27]
Anita Arnan
And because he's got total control now, the Red army all over Poland, there's not a huge amount of leverage that either America or Britain can bring to bear.
- [23:37]
William Durand
So he wants a territory of Poland in the east to increase its buffer zone and stop any kind of European invaders in the future. And airily, he kind of says, you know, well, I mean, do you think the Poles might mind having not as much of their country as before? He says, well, no, it's okay. You can compensate them with the stuff that the Nazis took with a bit of Germany that the Germans took. You know, the oda, nice line will become the western border of Poland. The Curzon line can be used as the eastern border with the Soviet Union, essentially will just shift it over to the West. And Churchill knows, he's just. I mean, Roosevelt doesn't care about Poland. He doesn't really even care very much about what happens in Europe. This is the charge against him.
- [24:21]
Anita Arnan
Roosevelt just isn't prepared to make this a sticking point in any way.
- [24:25]
William Durand
That's not important to him. He's got existential crises facing him with Japan.
- [24:29]
Anita Arnan
And this is why so many in Europe to this day regard Yalta as the Great Betrayal by their Western allies.
- [24:36]
William Durand
Yeah. And so Churchill tries to put this brave face on it, trying to turn it into a bit of a joke. And he says, oh, you know, okay, the west would shift, okay, the westward shift, okay, but no more than the Poles can handle, he says, because, you know, let's ask the Poles what they want to do with their Poland. And he says it would be a great pity to stuff the Polish goose so full of German food it dies of indigestion. There are some great lines.
- [25:01]
Anita Arnan
That's some good lines.
- [25:03]
William Durand
But you know what? They do this kind of weird, eventually broadly democratic thing and then move on and it will shift. So that is the kind of agreement. But he doesn't want to sign off on it. He says, look, we'll sleep on this problem. And Stalin says, fine, thinking you sleep on whatever you like, mate. It's fine. Because he knows he's got Roosevelt.
- [25:27]
Anita Arnan
It's broadly democratic.
- [25:29]
William Durand
Yeah, it's broadly democratic at some point in the future. But you know what? We'll just all sleep on it and we'll talk about the thing that Roosevelt, who's been very quiet until this point on Poland because next up is his big passion project, the United Nations. Join us after the break and find out how that conversation goes.
- [25:50]
Anita Arnan
Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com Credit Card Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report, the new McCrispies trip is here. Dip approved by Ketchup Tangy barbecue Honey mustard, honey mustard, Sprite, McFlurry, Big Mac sauce, double dipped in buffalo and ranch, more ranch and creamy chili. McCrispy strip dip now at McDonald's.
- [26:35]
William Durand
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying Big Wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for.
- [26:58]
3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com welcome back. So yes, the United nations, as we've said, is one of those things that are very ailing, very weak. Roosevelt wants us his legacy and that's the next thing up on the table, which probably is why he's just not giving support to Churchill or Poland and is accepting all sorts of nebulous promises of the future. So Molotov says, look, you know what, we've looked at your proposals for this United nations thing, but we'd just like to tweak it a bit because as things stand, as things stand, we're a little bit outnumbered in this United Nations. And so we think permanent seats should be given to three of the 16 Soviet republics to the General assembly of the United Nations, I should say, rather than the Security Council, the General assembly of the United Nations. We think that, fine, we'll have a seat, that's nice. But Ukraine, Belorussia and Lithuania should also have seats. You know, the implication is very clear because then we have four votes and you're not going to outvote us. And you know, they have a point. They do have a point. You know, they, they don't want to be dominated. And, and the British Dominions, you know, Australia, Canada, says Molotov, they've got votes. Why not our satellite states having votes? What is, what is your argument against that? Now Roosevelt's had a bit of a bind about this because he's told Congress he's going to oppose Eddie X receipts for the Soviet Union. So he says, okay, let's just push that. He does what Roosevelt does. We'll just park that. We'll let the foreign ministers sort that out later. Sort it out later. But Churchill is not going to let that happen. He's like had enough with the Polish thing. It's just really wound him up. Everything's been winding him up. It's not, it's just, you know, he's being outnumbered and outvoted around the table. Churchill says actually no, Britain's got self governing dominions and they have a right to have a seat at the table.
- [29:15]
Anita Arnan
We should say that Churchill has been pepped up by his daughter Sarah, realizing that Churchill gets a bit peckish at these sessions because he hasn't had enough to eat. So they managed to slip him some chicken soup in a thermos flask.
- [29:31]
William Durand
So he's pepped.
- [29:31]
Anita Arnan
He's pepped up. Yeah. It's at this point that we get to Stalin's trump card and Stalin proposes something that he wants at this stage. He wants the power of veto. Now this obviously matters a lot still. And we see that veto being exercised by the UN Security Council members and still changing the way that the war in Ukraine or Gaza or wherever the latest crisis is, how that plays out because of this power of veto. And this is Stalin's introduction at this point in the Alta conference.
- [30:01]
William Durand
I mean, this has been a really action packed day. They go back to their respective palaces and at the Vorontsov Palace, Churchill telegraphs his war cabinet saying today has been a much better day. All the American proposals for the United nations constitution were accepted by the Russians. Britain is asking a great deal and having places in the General assembly for her dominions as well as herself. It would shield Britain from criticisms if two or three Soviet republics also had seats. So he kind of gives in to Stalin saying, you know, it would mean that we get more because, you know, British Empire bigger, we've got more dominions, it'll be fine. Furthermore, he says a friendly gesture to the Soviets might be expedient to secure concessions on Poland, for which he perceives a glimmer of hope. This wasn't actually the first time that the United nations had been discussed. So it had already been discussed, in fact, at a place called Dunbarton Oaks. It's an assembly estate in Washington and it had been discussed the year before.
- [30:59]
Anita Arnan
An estate in Washington. Dunbarton Oaks is the place where any of us who are interested in Byzantium go and study. And our mutual friend Franka Manca, Peter Frank. Peter Franke, I think, had a long stint at Dumbarton Oaks and it still has the best sort of classical and Byzantine museum collections in Washington. So if you're interested in that, next time we're in Washington, go and see the Dumbarton Oaks Museum. But this is the place where the ideas, the seed of the United nations, was laid. And in, I think it's in, yes, August 1944, there had been a conference already to sort of set up the beginnings of the idea and that had laid the groundwork for this discussion that's.
- [31:43]
William Durand
Now happening in Yalta and at Dumbarton Oaks. They talked about the voting rights on the Security Council. And it was a real battleground even back then. You know, it was going to always be difficult. Stalin insisted that if the UN had to work, the major powers had to have the ability to veto discussions. And that power of the veto, as William has said, is like completely central to foreign policy even today. But it's very interesting that the four policemen envisaged by Dumbarton Oaks were United States, United Kingdom, Soviet Union and China. And China at Yalta is completely absent. But even then at Dumbarton Oaks, where Anthony Eden was, he says, you know, Stalin's got them twisted around his finger. Even sort of back at Dumbarton Oaks, he says, of course, the man was ruthless. And of course, he knew his purpose. He never wasted a word. He never stormed. He was seldom even irritated, hooded, calm, never raising his voice. He avoided the repeated negatives of Molotov by more subtle methods. He got what he wanted without having to seem obdurate.
- [32:44]
Anita Arnan
Yeah, this is what's so brilliant about Stalin. Stalin outplays the others. And it's Churchill that makes. You know, if you look at the quotes in the books about Hjalta, all the beautiful quotes come from Churchill, who's very eloquent, but he talks on and on and on. And Stalin's method is completely different.
- [33:02]
William Durand
He says little gets much done. And Churchill's own team is getting really fed up. They're complaining that he's drinking too much and he's talking too much, and honestly, he's not getting as much as he needs.
- [33:14]
Anita Arnan
And Roosevelt, every time that Churchill starts talking, leans over to Harry Hopkins and here we go. That's it for half an hour now. So Churchill is making a lot of noise, but not getting what he wants. Stalin's the opposite. And Anthony Eden, of all people, the Foreign Minister, is deeply impressed. He never wastes a word he says by subtle methods. He gets what he wants. But isn't it interesting that he's actually, for all that moustache and all that sort of hair oil, he's actually quiet.
- [33:39]
William Durand
And a cat menace is always more menacing when it's quiet. Yeah, I mean, people who shout and scream are sort of cartoonish, but, you know, I mean, just look at Mussolini, just, you know, he shouted quite a lot and he was sort of quite boorish and clownish, but, yeah, Stalin, quiet, silent but violent. So, look, the United nations is also going to be the thing on everybody's minds on day six of the conference as well. And the Soviet request for extra seats, it's going to be considered. They're going to have more talks about this in April, but it's pretty much a done deal as far as the Soviets are concerned. It's going to happen, although Roosevelt is a little bit reticent on it because he hasn't discussed it with Congress and he hasn't discussed it and this is not the plan that he wanted to, but Molotov senses that there's a discomfort. He can turn the screws a bit on this. He said, look, if we can't agree here and now, I know Roosevelt, you want to talk about it further down the line, you're not willing to commit, but then let's just tell the world we can't agree on It. And Roosevelt was horrified. He's like, no, no, no, we're not going to do that. Because basically you're killing the idea of United nations even before it's born. If you say we can't agree on it here and now. And the Soviets are laughing into their sleeves because they know it. They know he's got. They've got him over a barrel.
- [35:00]
Anita Arnan
Not least because they've read in the intelligence documents that they've got that this is the red line for him. So they know that they can squeeze at this point. That is the pressure point. And it works. So Stalin asks, would you be prepared now to. To include the admission of the additional Soviet republics in the agenda? And Roosevelt replies, yes. So he wins another point.
- [35:21]
William Durand
But you know what, they have that conversation in private behind Churchill's back that wasn't even done in front of. In front again, they're having a meeting. So Stalin has basically gone off to have a meeting with Roosevelt and Churchill is not present and they're making all of these agreements and Churchill sort of gets to hear about this pre meeting meeting and with, you know, sort of almost inward kind of timing. He's not allowed. Yeah, no, he sort of. He comes to the door and he goes, what's going on? What's going on in there? Craning his neck over the security guards and they're like, oh, nothing to see here, sir. Move along. He's like, no, wait a minute.
- [35:56]
Anita Arnan
And then the security guards send a note in to Roosevelt.
- [35:59]
William Durand
Yeah. And Roosevelt says, let him wait.
- [36:03]
Anita Arnan
It's interesting. You know, we are so set with this idea of a special relationship and everything. It's so much part of this. The world were brought up in that when Trump flirts with Putin, we think it's something completely new. But here is Roosevelt doing exactly the same thing at Yalta. Different motives, different time, but same play.
- [36:23]
William Durand
So knowing now Stalin has got what he wants, his Soviet republics, the additional Soviet republics will be allowed in. Roosevelt has agreed to this behind Churchill's back. Roosevelt says, okay, actually that's not why I invited you round to talk about this. I wanted to talk to you about the war in Japan. And again, Stalin got in his request before Roosevelt can get his. And Stalin says, well, yeah, about the Japan thing, we might be willing to come and help you, but what we'd like is the southern half of Sakhlin island, north of Japan. It belonged to the Japanese, but he also wanted other areas to the Kurils chain of 32 islands extending from beyond the northmost Japanese home of Hokkaido northwards to the Russian Kamchatka Peninsula. So he's got the shopping list. Yeah.
- [37:18]
Anita Arnan
If I'm not wrong, this, a lot of this area had been Russian up to the Russo Japanese war. Do you remember that? We did it with Tankach Mishra last year.
- [37:27]
William Durand
And this is some of the 1905. Yes, that was taken. Yeah.
- [37:31]
Anita Arnan
So they're getting back to their lost.
- [37:33]
William Durand
Territory, but Stalin isn't done. Okay, that's not all he wants. So he wants to get that back. And Prince Vodcher says, yes, sure, you can have that back. That makes sense. But Stalin wants something more. He says, and also, since you're in such a generous mood, we'd quite like territory from, you know, your Chinese allies, Chiang Kai Shek. We've got some of their land on our list as well, and we'd like that. No, he's our ally. Hang on a minute. Chiang Kai Shek. We've had taken two years to get an agreement with him and China, you know, we have a reciprocal agreement. They support us, they help us. I can't just give you their territory. And Stalin's like, well, you know, this United nations thing, then this help with Japan thing, not sure we can really accommodate. Churchill is outside this room while these conversations are going on, not being allowed in, not being allowed in, being told to wait outside. So she started. Well, see, the thing is, if you don't do this for me, Roosevelt, my old friend and possessor of the lemon tree that I flew in specially from Georgia, just because you like your martinis with a twist, just if you don't do this, I can't go back to the Supreme Soviet and say we're going to war with Japan, because why are we, what do we get out of it? I cannot sell this to my people. Roosevelt, you gotta help me. Help me to help you. Help me to help you.
- [39:05]
Anita Arnan
The irony being that if this conversation had taken place even a month or two later, the Manhattan Project, the atomic bomb would have been further advanced. But this conference takes place at a point when the Soviets have more, more cards in their hands than they ever had before or ever will again. And so when people look on Yalta as this betrayal of Eastern Europe and this moment of surrender of so much of territory to Stalin, this is why it is the sheer bad luck the Ardennes, the Arnhem held up the incredible.
- [39:41]
William Durand
Speed of the President, who may not be firing on all cylinders, you know, and is giving and Churchill irritating all.
- [39:48]
Anita Arnan
The others and not being close enough to his American ally.
- [39:52]
William Durand
So Stalin's Come up with that masterstroke of, I can't, I can't sell this. Roosevelt, I'd love to help you. I can't sell this to my people unless they know they're going to get something out of it. And Roosevelt saying, I cannot turn on an ally. Congress will not let me do that. So Stalin says, I've got a brilliant idea. Just don't tell them. Don't tell them, don't tell Chiang Kai Shek. Let's just shake on it here and now. That'll be fine. But we just don't tell them. And Roosevelt says, okay. And it's just, it is such a mad thing. Roosevelt says, there's no need to speak to the Chinese until he makes a move against Japan. He needs the help. So we'll just not tell them. And it's going to be a real problem.
- [40:33]
Anita Arnan
Anita, you know this era of history much more than I do. Is there a version of the Altar history in which Roosevelt doesn't come across as quite so hopeless? I mean, is there any. Is other.
- [40:45]
William Durand
Yeah, there are those who say, and, yeah, I think Diana Preston's one of them, actually, who says it in her book that either you can see him as this weak, vacillating creature or you can see him as the man who brought an end to the war quickly and you couldn't have done. He brought peace. How many millions had died, how many more would have died if the war would have dragged on and on? But because the three of them were in a room working in concert to end the war, the war had to end. You know, we're all talking about what this meant to the post war period. But first you have to end the war. And you can't end the war unless you're working with each other. And so there are great defences put up for Roosevelt. You know, without him. Can you imagine Stalin and Britain coming to any kind of agreement without him, without the butter in the sandwich? That would not have happened. And the war may have dragged on and on and countless lives lost. He did his best with the cards he was dealt.
- [41:43]
Anita Arnan
That's all we have time for this time. But we are going to come back with the end of the Altar Conference and bring it to its conclusion in the next episode. So if you want to hear that now, you can join the Empire Club and get all the extraordinary benefits that joining our wonderful club can bring.
- [42:02]
William Durand
William keeps promising more and more things.
- [42:05]
Anita Arnan
Presents at Christmas.
- [42:07]
William Durand
Yeah, William's gonna come and read bedtime stories to you if you join the club. He's gonna come and tuck you in every night. Anything else you want to promise? Just without discussing it with anybody else, William is going to give you all a kidney. Join our club. Empirepoduk.com empirepoduk.com Till the next time we meet with a free kidney, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnan.
- [42:36]
Anita Arnan
Good night from William Durand with fewer and fewer kidneys. Every second goes for kidneys for everyone.
- [42:43]
William Durand
Yay. Before you go, can we tell you about something really exciting?
- [42:55]
Anita Arnan
Have you ever heard an ad on this podcast and thought, hang on, my brand would be way better here than whatever they are gnashing on about?
- [43:03]
William Durand
I mean, it's bold of you, but you might be right. And here's the thing, you can actually make that happen. Make the dream real. Imagine your brand front and center on Empire and other shows across the Goal Hanger network.
- [43:15]
Anita Arnan
If you don't know who Goal Hanger is, they are the producers of this show. And if you're looking to get the the brand right into the center of everybody's routines, they are the people you want to talk to.
- [43:25]
William Durand
If you're curious, just head over to goal hanger.com that's goalhanger. H-A-N-G-E R dot com.