← Empire: World History
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- [00:01]
William Dalrymple
If you want access to bonus episodes reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter. Sign up to empire club@www.empirepoduk.com.
- [00:19]
Anita Anand
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- [01:40]
Hello and welcome to Empire with me.
- [01:42]
William Dalrymple
Anita Arnan and me, William Dirimple. Why are you so perky, Anita?
- [01:47]
Anita Anand
I'm perky. I'll tell you why I'm perky. Because we're doing Canada. And because of course. Thank you very much for all of your kind wishes as the new Foreign minister. The new Foreign minister or of Canada. I'm very, very pleased that we're doing Canada. I'm not the Foreign minister.
- [02:00]
William Dalrymple
I always thought you should have got the job of Prime Minister, but really, did you?
- [02:05]
Anita Anand
Can I just say, William is really stirring the pot with this. There are two Anita Arnons. I am not the one who's running Canada or her father. You should be there.
- [02:12]
William Dalrymple
You should be only foreign minister.
- [02:14]
Anita Anand
No job too big or small. But yes, we met. Did you know we met? I mean, there's a whole thing the BBC did about it.
- [02:20]
William Dalrymple
I didn't know you told the world many times.
- [02:22]
Anita Anand
Told the world about it, yes. Well, that's because you keep telling everybody that we're the same.
- [02:27]
William Dalrymple
Just doesn't have one of my favorite games.
- [02:30]
Anita Anand
You do it really inflating the two Anita Addons because Honestly, then, my timeline is entirely filled with either people saying congratulations or having bones to pick with me. And there are bones to pick. The thing is, I don't understand what they're talking about. Anyway, look, we are doing Canada, which is why I'm perky. And the reason we're doing Canada again, it's all sort of inspired by the Trump shopping list, the not so hidden American empire of the territories that he would like to have. And very famously, William, he said, well, Canada, our next door neighbour, we'll just have you. You could be our 51st state. What do you think about that? Canada. And what did Canada say?
- [03:08]
William Dalrymple
Canada wasn't thrilled.
- [03:09]
Anita Anand
It has to be said, no thanks, no tar. But Canadians are very, very proud of their Canadian identity.
- [03:15]
William Dalrymple
Never more so than this year.
- [03:16]
Anita Anand
Yeah, well, I mean, it carried Mark Carney to win Canada's federal election. On April 29, it became official he was the new Prime Minister and he did totally ride on the back of this anti Trump sentiment, you know, that we are our own country. It was. It was a massive turnaround because, you know, the Liberals were not doing well and most of the commentators in, you.
- [03:37]
William Dalrymple
Know, Trudeau was not popular at all, was he?
- [03:40]
Anita Anand
No, they'd written them off. They'd completely written them off. But all Trump had to do is sort of talk about his 51st state, as they think. Nonsense. And it just torpedoed Mark Carney into power. And did you see, do you remember watching that first kind of slightly excruciating meeting at the White House? You know, the same kind of setting.
- [03:58]
William Dalrymple
Well, I thought, again, my admiration for Carney ever been stronger the way he.
- [04:03]
Anita Anand
He just smiles.
- [04:04]
William Dalrymple
He's the only one of Trump's enemies who survived that, that sort of public grilling that Paul Zelensky and the poor South African president were sort of humiliated by. But Carney came out standing tall and talked to Trump in Trump speak. That he understood. Yeah.
- [04:22]
Anita Anand
Do you remember, he said. He said, as you know from real estate, President Trump, there are some places that are never for sale, such as Buckingham Palace. So Trump. Trump comes back with. And Carney just laughs at him. Anyway, so that happened. Then you also had. Which I think is a really significant thing, King Charles visiting Canada's Parliament and addressing Canada's Parliament, and then also sort of reiterating the fact that, you know what, we have historic ties and Canada is Canada and it is always going to be Canada. And you have the sort of head of State of Britain, a place that has extended an invite to Trump, which apparently he prizes very highly. Saying, no, not on my watch, buddy. You're not having this place. So what we thought we'd do was we'd just do the empire treatment of Canada. And you know how we do this? We sort of go back to the very, very beginning. We're talking about a massive landmass here, 41 times the size of the United Kingdom, stretching from the Pacific to the Atlantic Ocean.
- [05:20]
William Dalrymple
41 times?
- [05:21]
Anita Anand
Yeah, 41 times the size of the UK and it's almost the size of the entirety of Europe. So we've had the Vikings show an interest. The British, the French, the Americans, the Spanish, the Portuguese. They've all staked claims in the past. Even the Russians had a toehold once upon a time. So I wanted to take us right, right back to the beginning. And are you sitting comfortably?
- [05:42]
William Dalrymple
You've gone into a very mythical mode. I think we're about to find a whole new Anita Anand, who's neither the foreign minister nor the historian, but Anita Adan, the mythologist.
- [05:52]
Anita Anand
The reason I wanted to do that was because, of course, all colonial powers assume that the country that they're going to go and take is empty. But it's never empty. There are people in it. And these are some of the creation stories of Canada from the people who first lived there. And I'm talking about the indigenous tribes of Canada. Are you sitting comfortably? Because I'm going to start at the beginning. Before the beginning, there was once another land far older and far more magical than you can possibly imagine. A place of the first birds and the first animals and of the mighty Nanabush. Part spirit, part man. So powerful was Nanabush, he could turn himself into an animal, a tree st or a maple leaf simply by wishing it so. He lived in peace with his brother by a lake. And their friends were the animals and the birds. And they could speak to them and understand them. And always peaceful and always joy, save for the threat of darkness in the waters. The treacherous Serpent people. Giant, evil snake like creatures who lived in the deep great lakes. And they killed Nanabush's friends, the animals. And then one day they killed his brother too. So Nanabush hunted them down with his bow and arrow. When he found two, with the loudest heartbeats, he shot them. But they didn't die. Wounded, they slithered into the waters and the lakes churned and rose higher and higher and higher till the lakes drowned the entire land. Nanabush only just had time to get into his raft and pull as many of the animals as he could onto it. As the world drowned around him, all was quiet. So he asked his friend, the loon, the bird, not the kind of loon we mix with, to dive into the water and find some of the old soil from the old lands. But the poor loon couldn't hold its breath for long enough. Then he sent the turtle, but it couldn't quite see to the bottom, let alone reach it. So finally he sent his friend, the cunning muskrat. After what seemed like an age, the half drowned creature came up with a clod of earth in its jaws. Nanabush put it on the turtle's back, he breathed magic onto it and the great land grew on its back. That land is the land we now know as Canada, in which the first people know it as Turtle Island.
- [07:57]
William Dalrymple
I love that.
- [07:58]
Anita Anand
So that is, you know, Myths of the. I knew you'd love it. Knew you'd love it. So Turtle island is what it is meant to be to those first tribes.
- [08:06]
William Dalrymple
What's quite interesting is it has all sorts of echoes of Noah's Ark. Well, with Noah's Ark in the middle, but with all those snaky creatures going into the water and then ending up with a turtle. There's a lot of Indian creation myths in there.
- [08:20]
Anita Anand
Exactly.
- [08:21]
William Dalrymple
There's all these stories of the Nagas of the deep. If you look at the story of the creation of the Nepali myths, particularly close to that. And then this idea that you have in Indian mythology of the world balanced on the back of a turtle.
- [08:35]
Anita Anand
On the back of a turtle shell. That's right. Which is an elephant standing on a turtle shell which carries the world upon its back. So I mean, you know, you sort of start wondering whether, you know, the world is populated by A1 people who spread out all across the planet.
- [08:49]
William Dalrymple
There is links, aren't there, between some of the peoples in the Himalayas? There are actual links, I believe, aren't there between the Ladakhis and some of the peoples in Bolivia. And anyway, we'll go on to that.
- [09:00]
Anita Anand
Later tangent for another time. But look, that creation myth, William, is the Anishinaabe people, sometimes known as the Chippewa indigenous people who traditionally lived in the Great Lakes region, the northern plains and parts of the subarctic and northeastern woodlands of Canada. Tell us a little bit about how many indigenous people actually live in Canada today, William, because I think you've got the figures.
- [09:23]
William Dalrymple
So According to the 2021 census, there are 1.8 million Indigenous people in Canada, some 5% of the population. The Cree or Algonquins are the largest group. Then there's the Anishinaabe, Anishinaabe and then the Iroquois. And there are, I think, 634 recognized First Nation communities in modern Canada. And in this episode, we're going to look at the history of Canada before it became the country we know today. But I've got a little story I haven't told you, Anita.
- [09:53]
Anita Anand
Yes.
- [09:53]
William Dalrymple
Always pleased. I bring my family into things.
- [09:56]
Anita Anand
Look at my thrilled face. It's got a Dalrymple in it, hasn't it?
- [09:59]
William Dalrymple
Well, when I did my DNA, I'm 1% Micmac from the Halifax region. Bizarre. I don't know where that came from, but there it is in the DNA.
- [10:09]
Anita Anand
So the Micmacs are quite important in the history of Canada. They come up quite a lot with first contacts with the French, but I.
- [10:15]
William Dalrymple
Thought it was only financial. So when James I and 6th was trying to get money to colonize Canada later on, he created something called Nova Scotia baronets. And basically you paid money, you got a knighthood. And one of my lawyer ancestors in the 17th century paid the money and became Sir Hugh Dalrymple. But you had to have some land in Nova Scotia, and I always presumed it was just bought and then sold off later. But if we've got. I've got 1% Micmac, presumably Sam Darymple did go over there and make merry on the Halifax coast.
- [10:46]
Anita Anand
I mean, I wouldn't be surprised, knowing you lot. There's form, isn't there?
- [10:51]
William Dalrymple
So interesting. I had. No, I hadn't. I mean, I've got no notion of this, other than this turning up in my. My DNA when I sent it off for analysis.
- [10:58]
Anita Anand
Anyway, look, in 2008, the Prime Minister of Canada, Stephen Harper, made an apology to the descendants of the first nations and Inuit people of Canada. They're two distinct groups for the brutal removal of Indigenous children from their families. Their appalling treatment in these things called Indian residential schools for more than a century. And we're going to do special episodes in this series about those residential schools. There are places of utter horror and torment. So we've got an expert who's going to come and talk to us about that. But I thought, you know, if we're going to talk about the beginning of the beginning, and we started by the mythology, let's actually start with the history or rather the archaeology of all of this, because where did the first nations actually come from? And there has been. I should just warn you, there's been something of a recent earthquake in the reading of that. Anyway, what has been the accepted wisdom for almost 100 years about where the.
- [11:49]
William Dalrymple
First nations came from for almost 100 years. The idea was that first people crossed over what we now call the Bering Land Bridge, which was that ice free corridor which connected the two continents during the last Iron Age 13,000 years ago. And this land bridge was said to be vast and which connected Siberia with Alaska effectively. But all this has been under very intense scholarly analysis.
- [12:17]
Anita Anand
It's been turned inside out is what's happened.
- [12:19]
William Dalrymple
And people have found an extra 10,000 years of human history in North America. In fact, that it's, it goes back to 24,000 years ago. And more and more carbon C14 datings are coming up in North America at 24,000 years before our time.
- [12:38]
Anita Anand
So I mean, you've got proof positive it's not just another theory because there is a place in northern Canada right next to Alaska called the Yukon, a place called the Bluefish Caves where they found stone tools which you can date without question to 24,000 years ago. So this is well before the Bering Bridge people supposedly came over. They're known as the Clovis people. It was only in the 1970s and 80s that the new excavations of, you know, the aboriginal people who were there a lot before came out. And they were produced by a man who I like to think of as sort of the Canadian Indiana Jones, to be honest. Jacques Cinq Mars is his name. And this poor guy who does, if you look at pictures of him, can tell he's been toiling in the sun for hours. Exactly. Your favorite kind of archaeologist that you'd love to go and take your little brush and sort of stand beside and work with. But he, when he first presented his findings back in the late 1970s, he described it as an absolutely brutal experience. So he'd go to these archaeological conferences and say, look, you know about Canada place, I've done a lot of work in, I think you're wrong. And audiences would get up and walk out of his peers in archaeology or they'd boo and jeer at him if they did question him and sit around for long enough. He described it as a Spanish Inquisition. So basically his research established that, you know, the first people in North America came much earlier than anyone had suspected.
- [14:08]
William Dalrymple
10,000 years earlier.
- [14:09]
Anita Anand
Yeah, I mean you can actually go and visit those Bluefish Caves even now if you like. And just before we go to the break, I mean, I'll just sort of mention very briefly that the next big sort of voyage of people, human beings who come over to Canada was Leif Erikson, our friend the Vikings. Now, if you've heard Our chaotic Greenland episodes, you'll know that this is Eric the Red's son, as William calls sort of the psycho killer. It's his boy who comes. And the son of Eric is widely regarded to be the first European to set foot in North America. And we're talking about the year 1000 when he sailed from Greenland.
- [14:47]
William Dalrymple
That's right. And one of the reasons we should say that more peoples do not cross the Bering Straits is that that land bridge sinks in about 8000 BC. So the route that all these early peoples came over from Siberia through Alaska into the North American subcontinent ceases to exist at 8000 BC. So they have to come before then.
- [15:08]
Anita Anand
Okay. But the Vikings, we sort of have a better idea of where they came because, you know, listen to those Viking episodes. Because they settled in a place called Vinland, which we have now established after arguing on the was about the grapes that they found and turned into wine. And you know that too. So that area of Vinland, which is in Newfoundland, it's a UNESCO World Heritage site. So if you get a chance to go, go.
- [15:30]
William Dalrymple
I know several people have been. And it's an amazing site. It's apparently an astonishing site. Very, very well worth seeing.
- [15:37]
Anita Anand
So the Canadians, although it sort of lies in Newfoundland, the Canadians, I mean, they acknowledge Leif Erikson, but in America, there's an actual Leif Erikson Day. Did you know this? They celebrate Leif Erickson Day. Yes, there is. There's a date for it. If you watch SpongeBob SquarePants. Do you watch SpongeBob SquarePants at all?
- [15:53]
William Dalrymple
Not. Not on my radar, but I know he is.
- [15:55]
Anita Anand
There is a happy Leif Erikson Day episode where everybody has to wear horned hats and beards for that. So, yes, 9th of October in the United States, they acknowledge it. There's only one province in Canada that acknowledges it, and that's Saskatchewan. But what happens in Canada is they're looking much further back now and looking at those indigenous people who came sort of so much earlier than anyone suspected. Let's take a break. And after the break, we're going to talk about why so many countries were so interested in what was a difficult place to reach and pretty inhospitable when you got there.
- [16:32]
Unknown
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- [17:32]
William Dalrymple
Spotted McDonald's hot crispy fries right as they're being scooped into the carton and time just stands still? Welcome back. So in the last half we were talking about our friend Leif Erikson, son of psycho killer Erik the Red, who finds Vinland and finds this land that's so much more hospitable than either Iceland or or Greenland, that it's full of grapes and all sorts of other good things. But the hoped for Norse colony is driven off by indigenous attacks. There are vast armies gather around the Norse and they have a fighting retreat to their boats. And indeed archaeologists in Greenland have found corpses in their digging with Native American arrowheads embedded in the bones in their shoulders. Their wounded men made it back to Greenland, limped back, only to die there without the arrowheads removed. And that then passes 500 years when there are no further European, when nobody.
- [18:45]
Anita Anand
Bothers for a while, no one bothers.
- [18:47]
William Dalrymple
But then suddenly we kick off with Christopher Columbus, which is something we're going to be doing in the future with a proper series on him and the whole conquistador discovery of Latin America. But we're looking northwards and as far as North America is concerned, the next person to appear bobbing over the horizon is 1497, when John Cabot, who is an Italian but is sailing out of Bristol, interestingly makes a voyage to the coast of North America under commission from Henry vii. Tell me more about this, Anita.
- [19:22]
Anita Anand
Just first of all to add, you know, Columbus five years earlier tries it. And the reason that both Cabot and Columbus are interested in finding this is that they believe there is a northwest passage that they can get to Asia, so that is India and China, and pick up the porcelain and the spices which are so highly prized in Europe even as early as this, and they all find a Shortcut. Because otherwise, the only way you can sort of get to Asia is to do this huge loop around Cape Horn and the Cape of Good Hope, or the Cape of Good Hope, I should say. So they want to find this Northwest Passage, which they think is just this much easier way. But, you know, the waters are treacherous. It's very, very difficult. Difficult. It ices up for part of the year. So Cabot is kind of driven by this, that, you know, okay, Columbus didn't manage it, so maybe I can manage it now. His name is John Cabot to us, but his actual name was Giovanni Caboto. He was an Italian navigator. He has this real thing about Columbus that he's got to be better than Columbus. And he tries to get commissions in the same way that Columbus did, but everyone tells him to bugger off, really. Until he meets Henry vii, who says, I'll give you a bit of money for your voyage, Cabot, because, you know, look, we can see that there's a lot of excitement going on. And so he tries, you know, and Italy is so riven. So he goes to Portugal and he says, look, could you maybe pay for this? And they say, no. He goes to the Spanish and they say, no, we've already forked out for another bloke. We can't pay for you as well, so go away. And so he ends up with the British, who don't have as much money to spend, but they give him a bit. So he gets hold of this little ship called Matthew. Isn't that gorgeous? His little ship called Matthew, which is a piddly little ship compared to, you know, things that Columbus have.
- [21:04]
William Dalrymple
50 tons.
- [21:05]
Anita Anand
Yeah. Just tiny. I mean, it's really very, very small. The Matthew of Bristol, built in Bristol. Immediately, almost immediately he starts. He runs into difficulty because, you know, the Matthew's only a little tiny thing. The waters are harsh.
- [21:20]
William Dalrymple
He's only got a crew of 20 men. It's very much the budget trip to the New world.
- [21:25]
Anita Anand
No need. 20 men. Three of them were his sons, all of whom were miners. You know, just. They were underage. They were just tiny kids.
- [21:32]
William Dalrymple
They were miners, as in younger age, rather than. They didn't have pickaxes with them?
- [21:35]
Anita Anand
No. They didn't dig. No. You're quite right to pull me up on what I thought was an obvious point. Why, Cabot, Why are you taking pickaxes?
- [21:46]
William Dalrymple
A little group of Geordie miners went to a turn.
- [21:49]
Anita Anand
What are you doing, Cabot? What are you drilling? It's a ship. It's only the Matthew. Anyway, so what he does have Cabot in his hands is he has a Royal Patent which makes him sort of the first voyager to go off and discover this part of the world for England and King Henry. And I shall tell you what the letter of patent said. It's worth quoting. The letter gives free authority and faculty and power to sail to all parts, regions and coasts of the eastern, western and northern sea under our banners, flags and ensigns with five ships or vessels of whatever burden and quality they may be, and with so many and with such mariners and men as they may wish to take with them in said ships at their own proper costs and charges. Because we're not paying to find, discover and investigate whatsoever islands, countries, regions or provinces of heathens and infidels in whatsoever part of the world are placed, which therefore this time were unknown to all Christians. Signed the King. So can you see sort of the. The kind of mandate which is basically we'll pay for a bit, we'll send you, you sort of raise the rest of the money and whatever you have, we'll have it. Thank you very much. Stick a flag. There is this really marvellous thing that Cabot, when he goes off, even though it is just a little ship and he departs in May with this tiny, tiny crew with an unnamed Burgundian. I love that there's an unnamed Burgundian. As if he can't be trusted. And he's got a Genoese barber on board as well.
- [23:20]
William Dalrymple
Good job he's got someone to cut his hair.
- [23:22]
Anita Anand
Well, it's not. It's actually, you know what, Because I was really struck by the cast list of this voyage on the Matthew Barb has always doubled up a search because no self respecting surgeon would go on a voyage this long and so crap over really horrible seas. So the barber would be the one who could stitch up and cut.
- [23:40]
William Dalrymple
The Italians take their barbering very seriously. I got locked down in northern Italy for the second lockdown. And one of the nice differences between being locked down in Italy and anywhere else in the world is they regard hairdressing as one of the emergency services. And so all hairdressing shops, Olive used to go off once a week to have her hair done.
- [23:59]
Anita Anand
That's so bloody marvellous.
- [24:01]
William Dalrymple
But that was not why he brought a barber. He didn't think it was an emergency service that he needed.
- [24:04]
Anita Anand
It wasn't an emergency service. He actually literally needed him to hack off arms if things got really bad out at sea. There is this wonderful little aspect to this that he was being spied on even Though he really wasn't much of a threat to Columbus. Columbus clearly was a bit bothered by Cabot throwing himself into the same part of the world, trying to find the Northwest Passage. And there's this thing called the John Day letter. And John Day is a Bristol merchant. We don't think that's his real.
- [24:29]
William Dalrymple
He's using an alias. Pretty cool, Hugh.
- [24:31]
Anita Anand
Say that's it. Exactly. And he is writing letters to Columbus about everything that Cabot is doing. And he refers briefly to the voyage, but there will be others that come after it. And he's sort of keeping Columbus updated on everything that is going on. One of the Day letters says, since your lordship wants information relating to the first voyage, here's what happened. He went with one ship, his crew confused him. He was short of supplies and ran into bad weather and he decided to turn back. And it's kind of true. It's a little bit true because William, I mean, he does land in North America, doesn't he? It's June 24, 1497, that he actually.
- [25:10]
William Dalrymple
Makes landfall near where the Viking settlement was. Yeah.
- [25:14]
Anita Anand
So he's in Newfoundland. Exactly. Cape Breton Island. And he thinks with all of his heart he's reached Asia, that this is it, I'm here. And he claims the land for England.
- [25:27]
William Dalrymple
Which is exactly what Columbus thought.
- [25:28]
Anita Anand
This is exactly what Columbus does. Yeah. I'm in India. Yeah. He comes back, he marks the ground upon which he's landed. John Day, who's already been very bitchy about the achievement and said, you know, he was very confused by his crew and he just turned back, he didn't stay for very long. And what John Day, the man who's spying for Columbus, says is he did not advance beyond the shooting distance of a crossbow. So what the hell does he know about this new land? But he comes back and when he gets back to Bristol, he is a hero.
- [25:59]
William Dalrymple
Yeah. Is Hugh, say, the spy employed by Columbus in Bristol or is he on the voyage?
- [26:04]
Anita Anand
No, he's in Bristol.
- [26:05]
William Dalrymple
So he's just overhearing stuff in the pubs in Bristol.
- [26:08]
Anita Anand
Stuff is half arsed nonsense, you know, from the pub. But it's not very positive. And it's like, basically, don't you worry, Columbus, everything will be fine. Cabot, he's not up to much. He's not that tough. You're still fine. You'll still find that Northwest Passage before he does. But when he comes back from that first voyage, Cabot sort of rides to London to report to the King as well.
- [26:30]
William Dalrymple
He might, if he's just discovered you found London?
- [26:33]
Anita Anand
Well, he's found India, apparently. Foundation is what he's telling everyone. So he asks for a bit more money and he says, you know, have you got anything for me? Because I'd like to go back. Because, you know, some people not naming names John Day, you bastard, are saying, I didn't really do much when I got there, so I'd quite like to go back and be able to stay a bit longer. So he's given a reward by the king of ten pounds, which is about equivalent.
- [26:56]
William Dalrymple
Not much of a REWARD exactly, no. 10 quid.
- [26:59]
Anita Anand
Well, it's two years pay for an ordinary labourer, but still not very much. You're right. It's kind of surprisingly poor compared to what the riches are on Columbus mean king.
- [27:10]
William Dalrymple
Mind you, they weren't very rich at that point.
- [27:12]
Anita Anand
He goes back to the king, he says, give me some more money, please give me some more money. So the king says, all right, okay, we'll stump up the cash. We realize the Matthew wasn't up to much. We'll give you some money for five ships because that's what our charter said. You could have our letter of patent. So just go back. And he does. He goes back. So barely A year later, May 1498, the ships are carrying loads of stuff, cloth, captain, lace points and other trifles, we're told, which are going to be for trading, not fruit.
- [27:42]
William Dalrymple
Trifles.
- [27:43]
Anita Anand
No, no, no. They are the trifles that the miners like eating before they start hacking away at the rocks. It is the favorite diet of miners is a jelly trifle. You're good, you are. The way you read between the lines.
- [27:57]
William Dalrymple
I like to investigate these important items. Exactly.
- [28:01]
Anita Anand
So everybody's again watching Cabot flinging himself into the. Into the ocean again. There's a Spanish envoy in London who reports. Reports that one of one of his ships is lost fairly early on in this voyage. And you know, he's been forced to land in Ireland. But then Cabot carries on with four ships. One of them is completely stricken and stays in Ireland. Doesn't get much further. It's like one of those Ryanair flights, just stops after not much time. Wherever you're going. Barbados, yeah, we'll stop in Dublin. So for centuries there's not much else that we know about this expedition, but we do know that Cabot never comes back. His fleet and he are lost at sea. You know, maybe some people say he was killed by the indigenous people when he decided to go a little bit further inland. Some say his crew did away with him. We don't know. But we do know the next person who flung himself in. Because this we know a lot about.
- [28:56]
William Dalrymple
Who is a French rival from St. Malo.
- [28:59]
Anita Anand
Tell us about Jacques Cartier.
- [29:01]
William Dalrymple
So Jacques Cartier was a cider drinker from Sao Malo. Cider drinker, that's what they drink in Sao Malo. Have you ever been to Sao Malo? I love Sao Malo.
- [29:10]
Anita Anand
I didn't know that.
- [29:10]
William Dalrymple
There's a very good travel writing festival each year, which I often go to. They're very good oysters, very good cider.
- [29:15]
Anita Anand
Right, Good to know.
- [29:16]
William Dalrymple
Anyway, Jacques Cartier leaves St. Malo on April 20, 1534. And he's got rather bigger boat than our friend Cabot. He's accommodated by 60 sailors and he has two ships, about 60 tons each. And they set sail from Samano across the Atlantic quite smoothly. And after only 20 days, he enters the Strait of Belle Isle and the following the north shore of the Gulf of St. Lawrence for a time is amazed by what he sees, then turns back, heads south following the west coast of Newfoundland. And then he sails towards the continent, skirting the Magdalene Islands. And he then goes on a big sort of bird murdering expedition which I.
- [30:02]
Anita Anand
Like to call the birdering spree. Just absolutely wiped out. You thought it was better than you.
- [30:07]
William Dalrymple
Do when you just discovered a new continent.
- [30:09]
Anita Anand
I mean, how many birds are we talking about? It's shocking. How many birds did he kill?
- [30:13]
William Dalrymple
Around a thousand birds, most of them great auks, which are now extinct. Extinct since 1852. And this is on the Ile de Zoiseau, the island of birds.
- [30:22]
Anita Anand
Except no wazzos left there anymore.
- [30:24]
William Dalrymple
Very few wazos. Wazolas. It's now known as Rocher or Zwazo. A federal bird sanctuary northeast of Brian island on the Magdalen Islands. Was it for food that he was slaughtering his birds or was he just.
- [30:37]
Anita Anand
No, for fun. I mean, you don't need a thousand bloody birds, for God's sake. A lot of this is just kind of target practice, you know, he's a bull, it's that kind of thing. But. But it is while he's wondering.
- [30:48]
William Dalrymple
So they're quite easy.
- [30:49]
Anita Anand
So just blood blast them, you know, it's like sort of shooting, you know, a great boulder of a creature. But what, what happens, what's important is, is when he's on Wazo island and. And sort of travels a little bit further out is that he makes first contact with the original people of Canada, who now we've established, sort of been there for 24000 years. The Micmacs, your family, your, your bloodline. He sort of first meets cousins. Yeah. So on the, on the north side of Chalair Bay, he, he meets the Micmac and it's kind of the first time and there's a little bit of trading that goes on because Jacques Cartier, as you said before, you know, has come laden with stuff to trade and he thinks seeing these men with brown skin, that he's discovered the passage to Asia. This is it. Look. Brown skinned people, we know that's what they're like in India.
- [31:38]
William Dalrymple
Not the first to make that mistake.
- [31:40]
Anita Anand
No. So, you know, he has this, clocks this up. This is all very, very exciting.
- [31:45]
William Dalrymple
Hang on, you've missed out a very important thing. That he claims it for the King of France. He says.
- [31:51]
Anita Anand
Yes, he does.
- [31:52]
William Dalrymple
And he plants a cross claiming it for France.
- [31:54]
Anita Anand
Yes. Which is kind of, you know, the way that they behaved in those days, isn't it? Sort of sign it and it's yours kind of thing. So there is a chief there, Donnacona is his name, Chief Donnacona, who is the head of this tribe. And he meets him right after he's put in this long live the King of France and stuck a big 10 meter cross into the ground. He meets, he meets this chief and he meets his two sons. But thinking, right, he's got to go back now to France. He's got to tell them that he's found India and he's found Indians. So what does he do? And you know, Chief Dhanakhan is very happy to see him. They trade a bit, you know, they get on really well. He kidnaps his children.
- [32:32]
William Dalrymple
This happens the whole time. This used to be the regular thing that these guys did. So there's two sons called Tenoni and Dom. Agoya.
- [32:41]
Anita Anand
Domagoya, exactly that.
- [32:43]
William Dalrymple
And these poor unfortunate captives later, and this is a spoiler on his next voyage, will act as interpreters because they learn French.
- [32:50]
Anita Anand
They do, but they're sort of taken back for, you know, sort of show and tell kind of thing. And also, you know, learning the French that they do when they're back in France, they're going to be working for him. Whether they like it or not. They are going to, they're going to be proof that they reach Cartier has reached an Asian land. And they're also going to be able to be his translators because he's going back. And he does go back. He goes back the following year with these two boys because he's promised the chief and the chief, the only reason he hasn't killed him because he's outnumbered. You know, there are more of the Micmacs there than there are of Cartier's crew. The reason they let him go is because the chief says, okay, you can take them, but you have to promise you're going to bring them back and you're going to bring us more stuff, more good stuff. And that is the agreement. They sort of do this, whatever the equivalent of the handshake in is at that point. And so Cartier does do a second voyage on May 19 the following year, he navigates the St. Lawrence river and he reaches as far as present day Montreal. And what he does is he gets to the rapids near Montreal and he calls them Lachine because he thinks that this is the gateway to China. He's discovered it, so he names it. He's like so thrilled. This is what I have to get through. And then we're in China. He's got three ships, 110 men, and his two Mi' Kmaq captives. They're really keen to see their father again. They are desperate. So, you know, they reach the St. Lawrence, Cartier sails upriver for the first time. He's mapping wherever he goes. And that's a really big deal that Cartier manages to do this. He reaches Stada Kona, where the chief, Donnacona is ruling, and he's waiting for him. And he sees his boys again and there's a massive celebration and they're again gifts that are exchanged. But then Cartier says, okay, boys, say bye to your dad, because we're going now. And the boys say, wait, what? No, that wasn't what we said. We're gonna, we're staying. And he says, no, but I need you because I'm gonna go up river and I need to find more of this land and map more of the land. And, you know, we might meet some people. I can't talk to them. I don't know a single word of Micmac or anything else around here. So you come with me. And there's a little bit of sort of toing and froing. And Chief Dunnacona is really against it because. And this is. I don't know whether this is back projected, but he wants the trading all to himself with his tribe, not, you know, opposition tribes that are, that are elsewhere. So he sort of says grudgingly, okay, you can take my boys. And then it's sort of like on the never, never to the boys. Just make sure none of these other deals go through because they're the only ones who speak the language. And You've got sort of Cartier suspecting that they're not operating in good faith, partly because they're really pissed off. They've only just got home and they've been taken away again. And partly because. Because none of the deals that he tries to make subsequently go incredibly well. There's this natural haven and it's getting colder now. So before he goes any further, he's going to have to actually stay somewhere. So he finds this little bay which is sort of guarded against the elements. It's safe from the tides, it's a haven at the junction of the laray and the St. Charles River. And he tucks in his ships and he says, right, most of my ships will stay here, but we'll take one and we'll go up river. Because I want to get to this place called Hochelage. I've heard of Hochelaga, there's a great tribe there. And I think if I can get there and stick my cross into the ground there as well, that's a lot more of France that we get. And we might get even closer to Asia. You know, we're quite near China, deeper into China. We'll come back with loads of porcelain if we just get through. So he wants to take the two boys. They're really pissed off. They say, absolutely not, we're not going. He's furious, going, hang on a minute. After all the kidnapping I've done for you, after all I've done for you.
- [36:37]
William Dalrymple
Such ingratitude, Rank ingratitude.
- [36:40]
Anita Anand
Yeah, I've taught you French and kidnapped you and everything. Why are you just leaving me?
- [36:44]
William Dalrymple
Going back to your family. Who would want that? Exactly.
- [36:47]
Anita Anand
What is wrong with you to be with your dad. So what he suspects though is that they don't want to help him make any kind of contacts in Hochelaga, which by the way is present day Montreal, there's a very warm welcome, but it sort of stops after that because nobody speaks the language because the boys won't come with him, they won't translate and there's a whole bunch of his Cartier people who only speak French. So it doesn't get really too far. They do a sort of a sign languagey thing, but it's all sort of lost. So it's a bit of a wasted journey. So he goes back to the bay and they spend the winter hunkered down. And it is a terrible winter for Cartier because there are no supplies. They are weakened by the cold, they've got really terrible food. They can't be scurvy again? Yeah, they only have dried salt meat or salt fish to eat, fruit and vegetables, none at all. It's a disaster for them, and they're sort of stuck there. And they are decimated by illness. And by mid February, nearly all the sailors have got scurvy. Their legs and arms are all swollen, their gums are rotting, their teeth are falling out of their heads. And do you know, the one who actually saves them is the chief's son, the older son of the chief, who comes with this sort of tea for the crew. He was kidnapped, taken away from his lands. He makes him this sort of tea of bark and twigs of a Canadian conifer. And nowadays people think it's probably eastern white cedar and this is an antidote to scurvies enriched with vitamin C. But even though, you know, he tries to help them, 25 of Cartier sailors die from scurvy. So, you know, the climate is bad. It's all terrible. In February, Chief Donnacona and his men set out on a hunting expedition. They are accompanied by several people who Cartier can't recognize. And now what Cartier thinks, because he's all depleted from the winter that he spent there, is that these are some enemies and Donnacona is going to attack him. Now, where there was friendship and there was gratitude. Thanks for the table. There is now suspicion and that this is not safe. So what he does is he takes Donnacona and his two sons hostage again and kidnaps them and puts them on his ship and takes them back to France, partly so that, you know, they can describe the marvels of Canada to Francois I, partly so they can't foment any kind of rebellion against him when he comes back, because he's absolutely determined to come back, because now he's made his way to China and India. It's going to be great. And he's also got these maps with him. So what happens when he gets back with his again kidnapped party and greater info and joyous news that he's reached China?
- [39:31]
William Dalrymple
William, he gets another sponsorship. Francois I sponsors a vast colonizing expedition and appoints a name, Jean Francois de la Rocque, as commander. Anyway, Cartier goes off on his third voyage in 1541 and establishes a settlement at the foot of the Caliphs of Cabruges. And for the first time, he erects fortifications. He then makes a second journey inland up the river to Hochlaguer. And Cartier learns that the route beyond the rapids is long and difficult.
- [40:03]
Anita Anand
And it's also not China. It's also not China.
- [40:06]
William Dalrymple
Have you realizing that by now.
- [40:08]
Anita Anand
I don't know. I mean, I hope so.
- [40:10]
William Dalrymple
I don't think he has.
- [40:11]
Anita Anand
Still thinks he's in China, Right? Okay.
- [40:12]
William Dalrymple
He does, however, discover what he believes to be gold and diamonds in the rocks of Captain Rou.
- [40:19]
Anita Anand
Oh, this is a thing. Yes. He's not going to be the only one who thinks this. Yes.
- [40:22]
William Dalrymple
And so he then wants to hurry back and en route he encounters his competitor called Francois de la Roque in Newfoundland, and the commander orders him to turn back Cartier, who's obviously anxious to convert his cargo into cash as quickly as possible.
- [40:40]
Anita Anand
He thinks he's hit the mother lode. Yeah, he thinks he's hit the mother load. And if he can get back to France before this other guy sort of claims that the plaudits from the king, he's going to be made for the rest of his life.
- [40:51]
William Dalrymple
So poor old Delarque is deprived now of Cartier's assistant, spends a horrendous winter in Newfoundland, gets scurvy like everybody else. So this third voyage, which had been intended for exploration, even colonization, proves a failure because the golden diamonds that Cartier thinks he's discovered is nothing more than iron pyrite in quartz. And frankly, it serves him right after.
- [41:15]
Anita Anand
The baby bloody does. They call it fool's gold for a reason, you know. Yeah. So it's worth nothing.
- [41:22]
William Dalrymple
So it's a dodgy start.
- [41:24]
Anita Anand
It's bad, it's bad. It would be off putting, one might say, these.
- [41:28]
William Dalrymple
As far as the French are concerned. They now know that this land is there. They've got an idea of the sort of people who are living there. This is the beginnings of French Canada and the long story of why to this day, Canada is bilingual.
- [41:44]
Anita Anand
Bilingual indeed. And actually, you know, he's not going to be the only person who thinks he's found gold and diamonds. Others, and we'll come to that in later episodes, will think the same thing, that Canada is the land of jewels and gold.
- [41:55]
William Dalrymple
But the thing they have found, which they think is far less exciting than the gold but they nonetheless do bring back, is fur.
- [42:02]
Anita Anand
Fur, fur, fur, which is going to be such a big deal in the.
- [42:05]
William Dalrymple
Next episode and they hardly notice it. It hardly appears in the genres.
- [42:08]
Anita Anand
No, it's not. It's just nothing. No, it's just. It's hats. There's some furry hats they found.
- [42:13]
William Dalrymple
In actual fact, this is going to be the thing that propels the colonization of so much of Canada and it is the thing which will actually establish the economy of that colonial area.
- [42:25]
Anita Anand
Well, I mean, you Know, the economy rich is for others, but not for the people who live there. Can I. I mean, the next episode is going to be all about fur and it's going to be all about Paris's passion for fashion. That kind of sends more and more people over to Canada and how they then establish deeper and deeper roots. Cartier's thing, though, I think we can say is not hugely successful. He doesn't get another royal commission. He has the maps, though, that will help later voyages over when they do go back with an aim, which will be the fur trade. But if you go to Saint Malo now, place where you have a mother.
- [42:59]
William Dalrymple
Which I strongly recommend.
- [43:00]
Anita Anand
Which you recommend. Have you seen the statue of him?
- [43:03]
William Dalrymple
I haven't.
- [43:03]
Anita Anand
There's a statue of Cartier, so there's a statue and he's pointing west towards the dreams he would never realise again. It's a kind of a bittersweet thing. So look, that's the start, the stuttering start to French colonisation, as William said. Join us for the next episode when you find out that they make a second try, which is altogether more successful.
- [43:24]
William Dalrymple
What you really should want to do is join our club because it keeps us paying our bills and allows you to read our wonderful newsletter. But more importantly, binge listen to the whole story of our Canada series, which will be available now. Just go to empirepoduk.com that was exactly what I meant. Empirepoduk.com is exactly the hyperlink you're after.
- [43:48]
Anita Anand
Apart from keeping the lights on for us. We really love the community that we've got in the club, so do come and be a part of it. We would love you to. Anyway, till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnand, and.
- [44:00]
William Dalrymple
Goodbye from me, William Duranpool.
- [44:10]
Anita Anand
Before you go, can we tell you about something really exciting?
- [44:13]
William Dalrymple
Have you ever heard an ad on this podcast and thought, hang on, my brand would be way better here than whatever they are nattling on about?
- [44:21]
Anita Anand
I mean, it's bold of you, but you might be right. And here's the thing, you can actually make that happen, make the dream real. Imagine your brand front and center on Empire and other shows across the Goal Hanger network.
- [44:33]
William Dalrymple
If you don't know who Gohanger is, they are the producers of this show and if you're looking to get the brand right into the center of everybody's routines, they are the people you want to talk to.
- [44:43]
Anita Anand
If you're curious, just head over to goalhanger.com that's goalhanger. H-A-N-G-E-R dot com.