274. Pirates of Panama: Francis Drake Strikes Spain's Empire (Part 2)

Summary

Empire Podcast Episode 274: Pirates of Panama: Francis Drake Strikes Spain's Empire (Part 2)

Release Date: July 21, 2025
Hosts: Anita Anand and William Dalrymple
Guest: Mark Horton, Archaeologist

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Introduction to Pirates and Historical Context (00:00 - 03:00)

Anita Anand and William Dalrymple kick off the episode by revisiting their previous discussions on pirates, specifically referencing their earlier series on pirates that garnered significant listener interest. They introduce their special guest, Mark Horton, a respected archaeologist, hinting at intriguing revelations about Horton’s personal connection to Sir Francis Drake.

Notable Quote:

• Anita Anand [00:19]: "If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community..."

Mark Horton’s Connection to Sir Francis Drake (03:00 - 05:00)

Mark Horton reveals a fascinating personal detail: he resides in a house that once belonged to Sir Francis Drake. The hosts jest about Drake’s ghost haunting the house, with Horton playfully affirming supernatural occurrences tied to Drake’s history.

Notable Quotes:

• William Dalrymple [03:03]: "Mark, whose house are you living in?"
• Mark Horton [03:03]: "Sir Francis Drake."
• Anita Anand [03:09]: "Do you actually...?"

Francis Drake’s Piracy and Early Expeditions (05:00 - 09:00)

The discussion shifts to Francis Drake's early life and expeditions. Mark Horton provides a critical perspective, highlighting Drake not just as the Elizabethan hero but also as a pioneer of the English slave trade alongside John Hawkins. They delve into Drake's 1572 expedition to Panama, where despite having only 73 men and two small ships, Drake aimed to intercept Spanish silver transports.

Notable Quotes:

• Anita Anand [06:52]: "Francis Drake's first independent privateering... is now being remembered these days as the first English slaver..."
• Mark Horton [09:05]: "We have to start in 1572. Drake has a couple of ships..."

The 1572 Panama Expedition: Successes and Setbacks (09:00 - 17:00)

Mark Horton narrates Drake’s bold attack on the Spanish heart of Panama. Despite initial setbacks, including being wounded by a cannonball ([11:41]), Drake successfully captures a silver train, amassing 20 tons of gold and silver. However, the haul was too substantial for his small crew, leading to some of the treasure being buried—a legendary treasure hunt element remains to this day.

They discuss Drake’s return to Plymouth, his uneasy welcome due to shifting political treaties, and his subsequent disappearance for 18 months, possibly hiding in the house Horton inhabits.

Notable Quotes:

• Mark Horton [12:20]: "He then takes what he can... and instead decides to bury some of it..."
• William Dalrymple [12:34]: "Why are you not digging there, Mark?"

Drake’s Later Expeditions and the Counter Armada (17:00 - 21:00)

In 1585-1586, Drake leads a major expedition against the Spanish, capturing key locations like Santo Domingo and Cartagena. Despite initial successes, the ultimate Counter Armada in 1588 was a disaster for the English, leading to Drake's temporary disgrace.

Notable Quotes:

• Anita Anand [07:31]: "Spanish dollars become the main international currency..."
• Mark Horton [20:30]: "Naval historians have rather bigged up Drake's role..."

Rehabilitation of Drake’s Reputation (21:00 - 26:00)

Despite his earlier failures, Drake's reputation was rehabilitated during the Cromwellian period, cemented by historians like Sir Julian Corbett in the 19th century. This era depicted Drake as a quintessential naval hero, distancing his legacy from the darker aspects of his piracy and slaving activities.

Notable Quotes:

• Anita Anand [25:07]: "Now, we all remember Drake as this great hero..."
• Mark Horton [26:24]: "Cromwell himself sends out expeditions to the Grand Design..."

Transition to Henry Morgan and the Age of Buccaneers (32:00 - 38:00)

The podcast transitions to focus on Henry Morgan, another central figure in Caribbean piracy. Mark Horton describes Morgan’s rise from a minor Welshman to a feared buccaneer operating out of Port Royal, Jamaica. Morgan's brutal tactics during the 1668 siege of Portobello exemplify the ruthless nature of buccaneering during this period.

Notable Quotes:

• Mark Horton [32:17]: "So the Spanish get wind... Morgan was elected, with a group of other ships..."
• Anita Anand [34:05]: "Port Royal was the site. Actually, not much of it survives..."

Morgan’s Siege of Portobello (34:00 - 43:00)

Mark Horton provides a detailed account of Morgan’s 1668 siege of Portobello, highlighting his strategic demands for ransom and the subsequent destruction when demands weren’t met. Morgan’s success at Portobello solidified his wealth and reputation, enabling him to become the governor of Jamaica.

Notable Quotes:

• Mark Horton [34:13]: "He managed to lay siege to these impregnable fortresses..."
• Anita Anand [37:21]: "So, Mark, poor old Drake has got dysentery..."

The Great South Sea Expedition and William Dampier’s Adventures (43:00 - 47:30)

The conversation moves to the Great South Sea Expedition of 1680, led by William Dampier. This massive pirate fleet attempted to attack Panama but faced fierce resistance. Dampier’s subsequent explorations contributed to the early European understanding of Australia, predating Captain Cook.

Notable Quotes:

• Mark Horton [42:32]: "They suddenly realize the wealth of Spain and Panama..."
• William Dalrymple [45:03]: "But no, no. No, no."

Legacy of Piracy and Transition to the Panama Canal (47:30 - 50:00)

In the closing segments, Mark Horton touches on the continued attacks on Spanish holdings by English and French pirates, leading up to the eventual decline of such activities. The episode sets the stage for the next discussion on the transformative Panama Canal, teasing its significance in global history.

Notable Quotes:

• Mark Horton [48:45]: "So this is the route. So it shifts slightly to the west..."
• William Dalrymple [50:00]: "William, are you doing some such a good job of stumbling around..."

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Key Insights and Discussions

• Dual Legacies of Pirate Figures: The podcast critically examines historical figures like Francis Drake and Henry Morgan, juxtaposing their celebrated naval achievements with their roles in piracy and the slave trade.

• Impact on Spanish Empire: The relentless attacks by English and French pirates significantly disrupted the Spanish silver flow from Panama, contributing to broader economic and political shifts in Europe.

• Reputation Rehabilitation: The discussion highlights how historical narratives are shaped by subsequent political and cultural needs, leading to the glorification of figures who had morally ambiguous roles.

• Archaeological Connections: Mark Horton’s personal connection to Drake’s former residence underscores the tangible links between present-day archaeology and historical narratives.

• Transition to Global Infrastructure: The episode effectively bridges the era of piracy with the impending construction of the Panama Canal, hinting at the long-term geopolitical and economic ramifications.

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Conclusion

Episode 274 of the "Empire" podcast offers a rich, nuanced exploration of piracy's role in shaping global history, particularly focusing on Francis Drake and Henry Morgan's campaigns against the Spanish Empire. Through engaging dialogue and expert insights from Mark Horton, the episode sheds light on the complexities of historical legacies and sets the stage for further discussions on pivotal events like the Panama Canal's construction.

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Transcript

[Anita Anand]

If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening, and a weekly newsletter, sign up to empire [e-mail].

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[William Durrymple]

Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body.

[Mark Horton]

Relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[William Durrymple]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast.

[Mark Horton]

And breathe.

[William Durrymple]

Oh, sorry.

I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste.

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[Mark Horton]

1-800-Contacts.

[William Durrymple]

Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Anand, me, William Durample, and this episode There Be Pirates. Let me tell you, There Be Pirates. It's your. I know you love hearing from us about pirates. We did that three Ships series Christmas of long ago, maybe two years ago, and you loved it.

[Anita Anand]

We did a whole series after that, too.

[William Durrymple]

Yes, we did.

[Anita Anand]

We did Pirates of the Caribbean.

[William Durrymple]

You almost went pirates and then you lost yourself. The Caribbean. Very fun. But we have again got our brilliant, very, very special guest with us. And drumroll. You say his name and I'm going to tell you something you don't know about him.

[Anita Anand]

Mark Horton, the great archaeologist. My old friend since I was 16 years old.

[William Durrymple]

Yes, we know. But did you know? And it's going to be very important to know this. I want to see the look on your face when I tell you a thing. Mark lives in a very special house, a House that belonged to. And you better zip it because Mark's story to tell. Mark, whose house are you living in?

[Mark Horton]

Sir Francis Drake.

[William Durrymple]

Sir Francis. How.

[Anita Anand]

When did you discover that?

[William Durrymple]

Well, this is why you were late turning up to the recording. This is why to be on time is not too much.

[Anita Anand]

Do you actually. Well, yes.

[Mark Horton]

I mean, the tradition is only 19th century, but there's very good reason to believe that he did live there.

[Anita Anand]

Well, we certainly hope there's a myth. Did he play bowls on your lawn?

[Mark Horton]

No, but nearby Lydney, he would have played bowls with his great friend William Wintour, who funded all the little expeditions we're going to be talking about shortly.

[William Durrymple]

And guess what? And guess what else? Well, we'll get into all the funding in a second. That's all fine and good, but you told me that he haunts the house. He haunts the house. I'm going to shelve my disbelief in all things supernatural, but just I'm dying to know. How do you know that he haunts the house?

[Anita Anand]

And what does he get up to?

[William Durrymple]

What way does he haunt the house?

[Anita Anand]

Well. Well, the rattle of bowls down a.

[Mark Horton]

Corridor, the rattle of bones, the sense of spe. We get the sense of tobacco. That's really interesting. Ancient tobacco, not modern tobacco, which then suffuses the house. The type of tobacco that was brought back in the 17th and 16th century. Are you being serious on the New World? He is being serious.

[William Durrymple]

You should be on time. You miss so much.

[Mark Horton]

We have a spellscape.

[William Durrymple]

No, but you also said, can you see bum compressions on cushions? Is that something that's raised or are you just having me on there?

[Mark Horton]

No, you just see him in the corner, you know, a little bump impression.

[William Durrymple]

Oh, my God.

[Anita Anand]

You recently fell off a boat and nearly broke your leg and were wandering around limping for a long time. Was that Sir Francis Drake trying to teach you some seamanship?

[Mark Horton]

Some seamanship, that's right.

[William Durrymple]

I mean, the reason we're banging on about Francis Drake and who we learn in history as this gentleman nobleman adventurer, is because Francis Drake's first independent privateering. And remember, privateering is that very polite word that they used to use for being a pirate and pillagent on the seas. His first independent piracy was along the coast of Panama. That's right, isn't it, Mark?

[Mark Horton]

Yes, yes. He'd fallen out a few years earlier with John Hawkins. He was basically one of John Hawkins go to captains in Hawkins slaving voyages, taking Africans from West Africa and taking them and selling them illegally to the Spanish. The Spanish didn't like this because it undermined their own monopoly. And in one famous naval engagement, Drake abandoned his position. And as a result, Hawkins and Drake fell out. And Drake went off on his own way as a privateer and managed to persuade a sponsor man called William Wintour to give him lots of money to go and raid the coast of Panama.

[Anita Anand]

We should perhaps, for those who didn't have a British public school education and grew up with Sir Francis Drake, give a little bit of the backstory. Francis Drake, when I went to school, was very much remembered as this heroic Elizabethan who was such a cool cat, so unbothered by wicked foreigners, that when the Spanish Armada, the largest Spanish fleet, invasion fleet that was going to come and destroy Elizabethan England, when that hove into view over the horizon and a runner came and said, sir, sir, you must mount your sails and sail off, Drake says, I'll just finish my game of bowls now. That's how he's remembered in reality, as Mark has just indicated, he is more nefariously remembered these days as the first English slaver or the second English labour, along with John Hawkins. And the two went into business, breaking what was then a Portuguese and Spanish monopoly and actually going raiding into the interior of West Africa for the first time and capturing human beings and selling them at a profit, taking them from Sierra Leone and selling them on the Spanish Main. Is that right? Where did you sell them, Mark?

[Mark Horton]

No, no, into the Caribbean. At this point, the Caribbean Indians had all been wiped out, the Caribs. And so they needed a new source of labor to run the mines to keep the Spanish economy going. And so there was a massive, insatiable demand for Africans.

[Anita Anand]

And again, the backer of his second slave voyage in 1564 is none other than Queen Elizabeth I, who gives him one of her ships, Jesus of Lubeck, or Jesu of Lubeck, which serves as his flagship. So we have, for the very first time, the British Crown associated with a slaving exhibition, which is something that, of course, will develop in the Royal Africa.

[William Durrymple]

Company, with the Duke of York's brand burned into people's chests. Now, let's go back to Panama, because that's what we were talking about in the last episode. The Spaniards have discovered, or discovered they've claimed for their own a sea, the southern sea, then Panama and the Isthmus. And there have been plans sent to Philip of Spain saying, you know, it might be a good idea to build a canal through this very thin stretch of land. Might be helpful. And he said, no, because if God wanted a canal, he would have put. Put it in there. But what they are attracted to is the gold and the silver that is coming out of these lands. And the gold, although they think is still in mines, is actually not. It's been taken from elsewhere in South America and. And brought to Panama or is generational gold. But the silver is flowing, and the silver has transformed the European economy. And as William said, all the way up to China, the silver fever is in the world.

[Anita Anand]

Spanish dollars become the main international currency in the same way that the dollar is today.

[William Durrymple]

And the English are looking at this. You know, they have been enemies of the Spaniards for ages. The Protestant Catholic thing has never been thrown into sharper relief. And they're looking at all these Spaniards getting so very rich off the back of this silver trade that they think, well, we could have a bit of this, and hence the pirates or privateers, and that's what we're going to be.

[Anita Anand]

You have to put it in your accent again, Anita. You don't recognize it unless you say, oh, you don't.

[William Durrymple]

Oh, you know, you weren't going to get complaints about it. But there'd be pirates. There'll be lots of pirates because there'll be lots of silver. So where shall we start?

[Mark Horton]

We have to start in 1572. Drake has a couple of ships. They're absolutely tiny. One's 25 tons, which is a large yacht, basically, and the one's about 50 tons. They have 70 men involved. And he decides to attack the heart of the Spanish Empire in Panama. A completely mad scheme. I mean, his reputation is in tatters. After abandoning Hawkins a few years earlier.

[Anita Anand]

Out of cowardice is the accusation that he just ran away in a battle.

[Mark Horton]

That's right. Out of cowardice and stealing some of the treasure at the same time. His reputation is not good, but he does have backers who basically said, well, let's give you a couple of small ships and see what you can do. And he comes up with the idea that if he's able to intercept the gold and silver trains, the bullion coming across the isthmus, then he can make himself extremely wealthy and disrupt that flow of silver and bring that flow of silver back to Elizabethan England, which is.

[Anita Anand]

Not a bad plan.

[Mark Horton]

That's a bad plan.

[Anita Anand]

It's a heist.

[Mark Horton]

It's a heist, basically. And so he hatches this plan. He goes to a place called Port Pheasant, which he creates, which is on the San Blas archipelago on the north coast.

[Anita Anand]

Is that his name for it? It doesn't sound very Spanish it has.

[Mark Horton]

Are pheasants or probably cockatiels or something, but similar. The key thing is because you've got a tiny number of people. The Indians have mostly been wiped out, but in the mountains are cimarones. These are escaped slaves from the Spanish mines who, as it were, don't like the Spanish and want to get their own back. So he manages to create an allowance between the remaining Indians and the Cimarrones and his small number of men, only 73.

[William Durrymple]

I mean, you're not joking. 73 men? That's nothing.

[Mark Horton]

That's right. I mean, it's kind of like Cortes, really. So he first of all attacks nombre de dias. He comes in behind it because everyone thinks gonna come from the sea. He lands a bit down the coast and attacks it from behind.

[Anita Anand]

Like the Japanese at Singapore or something.

[Mark Horton]

Yes, dastardly. And they get a little bit. But there wasn't very much in the town, to tell you the truth, at nombre di Dio. So he then, as it were, retreated back and decides to, as it were, attack the gold tr. Which he successfully does with his Cimarrones a few miles outside. Lombardio says it's coming down from Panama.

[Anita Anand]

This is after the moment. There's a rather nice story which I remember hearing about that at some point he has a cannonball come through his state room. Is that when he runs away?

[Mark Horton]

That's when he runs away, yes. He decides he captures Nombradidos, but he's slightly wounded in the process, so he withdraws, abandons Zombo Dios and then goes back and launches this attack. And in the interior. And he manages to capture this mool train of silver totally unprepared. They had no idea. And ends up with 20 tons of gold and silver.

[Anita Anand]

That's not a bad day's work.

[William Durrymple]

20 tonnes is extraordinary. But this lovely fact is it was so too much to carry that he decides to bury some of it and come back later for it. Is that. That's correct. That's not a myth?

[Mark Horton]

Absolutely. That's exactly.

[Anita Anand]

Is there a treasure map?

[Mark Horton]

There's a treasure map. I mean, nobody's ever found it. And whether he.

[William Durrymple]

Why don't you dig there? I understand about your pottery, I understand about your excitement in foundations, but why are you not digging there, Mark?

[Mark Horton]

Well, indeed. There might well be an enormous treasure waiting to be finding.

[Anita Anand]

If we hear that you've done up Sir Francis Drake's house, it's now got crystal chandeliers, we'll know that you found it.

[Mark Horton]

He then as it were, takes what he can, what he can carry just a few tons of, to the coast where the ships that he thought were leaving had disappeared. He then builds a raft, rafts his way along the coast to find some pinnaces that he's also left. So he realised, as a result of the exposure, that he didn't make millions out of it. He nonetheless brought a considerable amount of silver back with him. And when he arrived back in Plymouth, everyone ran out of church to welcome him back. The parson carried on preaching to an empty church and we think they ran out of church to warn him, because a few months earlier, a treaty had been signed between Spain and England, much against Elizabeth's better judgment. So while he went out as a privateer, he came back with all this Spanish silver as a pirate, and he then disappears for 18 months.

[William Durrymple]

And he didn't know?

[Mark Horton]

He didn't know.

[William Durrymple]

I suppose there's no radio, there's no warning.

[Anita Anand]

Is that when he hides in your house or where does he hide in your house?

[Mark Horton]

Well, one possibility is that he hides in our house at this point. The man who sponsors his voyage, William Wintour, has this spare house on the banks of River Severn where Drake then hangs out for 18 months.

[William Durrymple]

No wonder it smells of tobacco. He was stress smoking.

[Mark Horton]

Stress smoking.

[Anita Anand]

Hang on. So I didn't know this bit of the story. Is he then pardoned, or what happens to him before he goes back to Pananma?

[Mark Horton]

I think the war then breaks out shortly afterwards and there's so much silver that he's been forgotten. And the key thing is that he's then hatching his plans for the round the world voyage. He is the first Englishman with John Oxenham to actually spy the specific. So he part of this climbs a tree like Balboa did earlier, and spy the southern seas.

[Anita Anand]

Is it the same tree?

[Mark Horton]

No, we think not. Spies. The Pacific. And then that, then gives him the idea that he wants to have an expedition into the Pacific, which, of course, is his great round the world voyage, sponsored by Queen Elizabeth and Robert Dudley and Christopher Hatton and all the great nobles of England.

[Anita Anand]

Remind me, Mark, has this been done before by the Spanish and the Portuguese, or is he the first to.

[Mark Horton]

No, Magellan had been around. Magellan, of course, didn't, but Magellan had died on his way, so obviously some of his shipmates did a circumnavigation, but Magellan didn't make it all the way round. So his was a continuous navigation round the world.

[Anita Anand]

And this is in the famous Golden Hind. That's Right, his flagship.

[Mark Horton]

Maybe another podcast will tell you all about this.

[William Durrymple]

Oh, you spoil us with your expertise. We could have you on honestly every other week. Okay, so we've got Drake, who is not a privateer. Is a privateer, lands and then is not a privateer because war breaks out. Lucky for him. But he's had a taste now, hasn't he? So Panama, does it call back to him? Cause he's also buried a whole bunch of gold and silver there.

[Mark Horton]

Yes, absolutely. So he then persuades the Crown, war's broken out again with Spain, and persuades the Crown to launch a major expedition. Not just two little yachts this time, but 25 ships, 2000 sailors, 1200 soldiers.

[Anita Anand]

It's a proper expedition.

[Mark Horton]

Proper expedition. £20,000 the Queen invests in the cost of the expedition, which is millions.

[Anita Anand]

What date is this?

[Mark Horton]

This is in 1585-1586. And he goes down, he captures Santo Domingo on Haiti. He. He then goes to Cartagena and he manages to, as it were, attack that and sort of semi sack it.

[Anita Anand]

That's a nice place for you to go and dig, Marc.

[Mark Horton]

Absolutely. And then he then ends up in St. Augustine and destroys that while he's on his way, capturing quite a lot of loot on his way. It probably never fully repaid the investment that was made on it, but it mightily annoyed the Spanish, who saw that the English were an emerging maritime power and El Drac was somebody to be content ended with El Drac. El Drac, the Dragon. The Dragon?

[William Durrymple]

Is that what they called him? El Drac. Wow. Okay.

[Mark Horton]

And so he returned back in 1586, incidentally. On his way back, he popped into Roanoke and picked up the desperate colonists who were at this point starving on the coast of Virginia. And he picked them up and brought them back to Plymouth, but so annoyed the Spanish that they then made their plans for the Armada, which, of course, is that moment of English history in.

[William Durrymple]

1588 which is defining and we are taught that, you know, great length singeing of king's beards and the Armada and all of that stuff is the stuff of our history curriculum. But why was he so successful against the Spanish? Is it just because they didn't expect him? They were outgunned. They were out sailed. I mean, what was it about El Drac that made him so successful in attacking Spanish interests?

[Mark Horton]

I mean, this is the discussion about how the English managed to defeat the Armada. The ships were much more versatile, the sailors were better trained, better gunnery, they're.

[Anita Anand]

Smaller and have got more guns, as I was always taught. At school, is that right?

[Mark Horton]

Absolutely. And faster and generally more manoeuvrable. These great big lumbering galleons look very good, but actually hopeless. And the guys themselves, the Spanish on them were noblemen. They were laden with gold and armor and everything else. And one of the Spanish Armada ships dug up on the coast of Northern Ireland. The number of chains of gold that were found in this ship demonstrate it was an extraordinary. So aristocratic, but not professional sailors. And so they were easy prey.

[Anita Anand]

We haven't said. But it's an important point that Drake comes from a very modest background. Yes, Drake is self made, self made.

[Mark Horton]

Man with a dissenting father as a parson and he learns his craft sailing small boats on Thames estuary, basically.

[William Durrymple]

Wow. Actually it's really interesting how many of these expeditions are led by hungry. Otherwise could be poor men, failed pig farmers or people from modest backgrounds who want to make so much more of themselves. Isn't it interesting? Okay, so carry on, Mark. So he's being successful. He's really annoying the Spanish. The Spanish have had enough of this nonsense and so they're building their armada and we know what will happen next. But in the intervening period, it can't just be Drake who sniffs a fortune in this part of the world.

[Mark Horton]

So Drake comes back in 1586, semi successful with this hugely expensive expedition and of course the Elizabethan crown get wind of the Spanish armaments. So Drake is then dispatched off to Cadiz to singe the King of Spain's beard, as the famous saying is, to provide a sort of counter attack to the Armada, at which point all the ships can't leave England because every ship is then needed to defend England against this extraordinary invasion that's being planned.

[William Durrymple]

So what you're saying, Mark, is that, you know, had the war not happened, others might have hurled themselves into the ocean and had a go. But because every ship is needed, every boat is needed for Cadiz, he's the only one, he is the pioneer and he remains the only one to have achieved what he did in South America for some years.

[Mark Horton]

That's right, the Armada happens. He becomes a national hero. But actually, I think naval historians have rather bigged up Drake's role. Many other naval captains were also involved in the defence. But then the year after, there was the Counter Armada, which is a disaster. English historians tend not to dwell on the Counter Armada, which was led by drake. This is 1589 and this is a massive British English Armada against the Spain.

[Anita Anand]

I'd never heard of it.

[Mark Horton]

Oh, the Counter Armada. And actually more English ships were lost in the Counter Armada than the Spanish lost in the Spanish Armada. It was a complete and utter disaster.

[Anita Anand]

It's funny how that isn't taught in our schools.

[Mark Horton]

It is. It was a complete disaster. And as a result of this, Drake, when he returned, was in disgrace. He became an mp. What you do if you're in disgrace had to hang around a bit, wondering really what to do. Finally, he persuaded investors in 1590 to undertake one last crack at Panama and he did so along with his old foe, John Hawkins.

[Anita Anand]

Have they been reconciled, sitting in the Westminster corridors?

[Mark Horton]

Yes, yes, they were both in their dotage, probably way past their best.

[Anita Anand]

What sort of age would he have been in 1595?

[Mark Horton]

55, something like that? We don't exactly around 55, which is.

[Anita Anand]

A very old man in Elizabeth, England.

[Mark Horton]

Absolutely. And he managed to marshal 16 ships, 600 sailors, and set about attacking the Caribbean again, raiding Spain, trying to, as it were, recover his reputation, which was now in tatters as a result of the debacle of the Counter Armada.

[William Durrymple]

So, I mean, the reason I was asking, was he the only one and you know, circumstances meant that he was the only one. It's because he has knowledge of the waters and the coastline. And so of course Hawkins is going to have to reconcile with him because there's nobody else to do business with. He's the only one who's been there and done that. So that would explain that. Okay, so talk us through the pillaging of the Panamanian coast that follows.

[Mark Horton]

So they go to Puerto Rico first of all and have a rather ill fated attack. Unfortunately, John Hawkins then descends to dysentery and dies and is buried at sea. Shortly afterwards they attack on Puerto Rico and then Drake goes down to Panama and tries the same trick that he did again, which was to capture Nombre de Dios. Now, he had sufficient ships to capture it and to hold it, but then sent a military expedition, he has soldiers on board to go along the Camino Royal, the royal road to Sac, Panama, which is obviously on the Pacific side. He successfully captures Nombre de Dios.

[Anita Anand]

And he ransoms it, doesn't he?

[Mark Horton]

He ransoms it for huge sums of money which eventually gets paid. But the military expedition fares less well and confronts a large Spanish army coming up from Panama. And they are rather nasty, defeated. About 60 English soldiers are killed, they all run away and about five Spanish are killed in this engagement.

[Anita Anand]

We should say at this point that Panama that we're talking about is Panama the city, not Panama the country, which doesn't exist yet.

[William Durrymple]

Yeah, no, very good. To point that out. But also some of you might be scratching your head saying, what do you mean he ransomed Panama. And what he did was he said, if you don't want me to destroy this place, pay me whatever it was, £1 billion or whatever it is he asks for, he doesn't get the money. So then he does order the town to be destroyed. Right. I mean, what do they do? Burn it down?

[Mark Horton]

Yeah, they burn it down and kill everybody off.

[Anita Anand]

And although they don't find any money in the town itself, there's a watchtower on a nearby hill and they go up there and they find a chest of silver with two bars of gold, some pearls and a few other goodies. But it isn't the same sort of stuff as he got last time.

[William Durrymple]

Not your 20 tons of booty that he left with.

[Mark Horton]

That's correct. So he's kind of slightly. Comes in empty handed, so it's all a bit bloody. The soldiers have been defeated by the Spanish, have had to come back and withdraw. He's in Nombre de Dios, sort of, and they decide to withdraw to the harbour just further up the place. The case of Portobello, that was discovered by Columbus in 1502, at which point Drake contracts dysentery and over three days he eventually dies, I think in the evening on the morning of the 30th of January of dysentery. Takes him about three or four days to kill the old man. And at which point Moal collapses in the fleet.

[Anita Anand]

Surprisingly, both Hawkins and Drake have been put into lead coffins and thrown into the sea.

[Mark Horton]

That's right. So Drake ordered, as he was dying, to be dressed in his armour, his suit of armour, and then placed in a lead coffin and when it was then thrown overboard somewhere in Portobello harbour, we don't quite know where. And treasure hunters obviously have looked for it for the last 50 years, have not found Drake's lead coffin.

[Anita Anand]

So, Mark, poor old Drake has got dysentery. He's died. Hawkins has died too. They've been defeated by the Spanish. How come that we all remember Drake as this great hero? How does his reputation suddenly get dry cleaned and he now represents this. You know, it is actually probably the first Englishman to be remembered in the same way that we like to think of James Bond as this character so cool and so collected and calm that even the approach of the Spanish Armada doesn't ruffle him.

[Mark Horton]

Well, it's a really interesting question. You see the sort of historiography of Drake in terms of the sort of changing dynastic politics of England. So the Stuarts hate Drake because he created all this horrible warfare and so forth, who is very much associated with Elizabeth and Elizabethan England. England. But ironically, his reputation is rehabilitated during the Cromwellian period. Cromwell himself sends out expeditions to the Grand Design, to Jamaica, and again, confrontations with these nasty Catholics in Spain. So here his reputation is rekindled. Accounts of his voyages are then published, ships are named after him, and it's really from that period, from the 1650s onwards, Drake then becomes, as it were, a bit of a household name.

[Anita Anand]

He's a kind of symbol of anti Catholic pirating. That's the point of him, that he's one of these characters that today we forget that there was this massive prejudice against Catholics, which was a major part of English history for such a long time. And Drake is the embodiment of that. That's why he's remembered.

[Mark Horton]

That's right. But there's a second, as it were, bite at the cherry. Because the Victorians also needed a great naval hero. And there was a famous historian called Sir Julian Corbett, who wrote a big book called Drake and the Elizabethan Navy, which is this eulogy about how what a wonderful seafarer he was. And it was from that, from the 1880s, 1890s, that Drake's reputation as a sort of of the great naval hero of the British Empire was fostered and created with, you know, HMS Drake, of course, being the naval station down in Plymouth and everything else, the founder of the Royal Navy.

[William Durrymple]

So, I mean, I'm just thinking now the landscape has changed entirely. So no Hawkins, no Drake. The Spanish are sick and tired of getting attacked in this way. So there must be some Spanish response to this. Do they start fortifying? Do they start rearming? What do they do?

[Mark Horton]

So they decide to abandon Lombardidios as an unfortifiable place and move to Portobello, which they fortify in 1597. And they build three enormous fortresses at Portobello, two guarding the entrance and another one guarding the harbor. And then within Portobello, they built a great treasure house, enormous, great big stone building that's able to store the bullion as it comes down the road. And they divert the. The Camino Real, the royal road, which went to Nombre di Dios, that now goes a little bit further down the coast to Portobello, and then that becomes the great entrepot for the export of the bullion through the 17th and 18th centuries.

[William Durrymple]

Okay, now this is a UNESCO World Heritage site. Now, these, these fortifications I'm looking at.

[Anita Anand]

A picture of it. Looks lovely.

[William Durrymple]

Yeah, I know, I mean, it looks amazing. But is it somewhere where you have dug or would like to dig and what is allowed there?

[Mark Horton]

Alas, I mean, it's such an enormous site. It's actually in quite good condition. So the fact archaeology has been done in Portobello, simply, the sheer scale of the fortresses are completely overwhelming there.

[Anita Anand]

It looks very like one of the lovely fortresses in Goa with sort of palm trees all around and those little.

[Mark Horton]

Pepper pot turrets and great batteries of guns that face out into the ocean to protect you. There's another fort that was built at the same time called San Lorenzo, which guards the entrance to the Chagres river, which is the other route into the interior. So they were guarding that coast and the route down to the South Seas.

[William Durrymple]

I mean, 35 cannon, I mean, they're not joking around now. If the Brits want to have a go again, they are ready, their guns are pointed, they're not going to take this again. That is very clearly the message that's being sent out.

[Mark Horton]

And then, of course, shortly afterwards, we have the death of Elizabeth, the accession.

[Anita Anand]

Of James I, and don't forget the founding of the East India Company at this point also.

[Mark Horton]

So interest for confrontation with Spain somewhat declines and James pursues a policy of.

[Anita Anand]

Peace with Spain and English energies are diverted off into the Indian Ocean to.

[Mark Horton]

The Indian Ocean rather than to the Caribbean. So Panama in the, as it were, early 1600s is literally churning out this silver from the mines of South America. And that's the great period of the wealth of Spain.

[William Durrymple]

But you know what, if you've got a churning of silver, do you know what happens there? Be pirates. Because it doesn't matter how much you fortify, if there is a substantial amount of Kuching, pirates don't care. They don't care what you've got 35 cannon pointing out. So we're going to take a break here. Join us after the break where we find out the hungry ones who come back despite those enormous fortifications.

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[Anita Anand]

Welcome back. Well, we've had pirates, but we haven't yet had rum, which is the important part of any pirate story. And who better to introduce the rum flavour of this second half of our pirate special than Sir Henry Morgan, after whom Morgan's rum is named. Mark, tell us about this figure.

[Mark Horton]

Okay, so this man was a quite a minor Welshman actually, who set out to make his fortune in Jamaica. This was Port Royal, which was the nearest of what were known this point, the buccaneers rather than the pirates. These were freebooters.

[Anita Anand]

Buccaneers being a plight term again, like privateers.

[William Durrymple]

I mean, honestly, it's same meat, different gravy. They keep renaming themselves. So basically they knock off other ships and take what's in them. But yes, okay, a buccaneer if you like.

[Mark Horton]

They were named after Buchan, which I think was some sort of dried meat that they ate on the coast of Haiti where they developed their, their particular rebooting activities. And Jamaica itself was a kind of a nest of these pirates. Port Royal was the site. Actually, not much of it survives or does survive underwater. There was a big earthquake and the whole city, a pirate city subsumed underneath the wave.

[Anita Anand]

This is very Pirates of the Caribbean.

[Mark Horton]

Yes, absolutely.

[Anita Anand]

And so where does Morgan fit into all this?

[Mark Horton]

So the Spanish get wind or the English in Jamaica get wind that the Spanish want to retake Jamaica, had been captured by Cromwell's troops during the Grand Design and Realized that the way to stop Jamaica being captured was to go and attack the Spanish and the Spanish wealth. So Morgan was elected, with a group of other ships to set sail onto attacking the Portobello, the Atlantic port where the treasure. Treasure was being removed. Note they had a good eye also for the loot that he was going to be founding, but it was also to disrupt the Spanish treasure fleet as part of the general conflict with Spain in the 1680s.

[Anita Anand]

So give us the whole story of Morgan laying siege to Portobello in July 1668. What's all that about?

[Mark Horton]

So he was. Although he didn't have a huge amount of members, he was able to lay siege to these impregnable fortresses guarding Portobello. He basically attacked them one by one. And what was extraordinary, he again demanded a ransom of 100,000 peso for Portobello, threatening to burn it if they didn't actually pay up, and sent envoys to the governor of Panama, who branded Morgan a pirate and refused concessions, vying no Englishman would be spared.

[Anita Anand]

And, Mark, just to remind us the kind of background of this, we are now, 70 years after Drake's death, what's happening in the wider scheme of things? England is rising now. It's much more. Has a reputation as a naval power, not just a bunch of sort of terrorists with big yachts going around nicking stuff from Spain.

[Mark Horton]

Yes, critically, the English were claiming large tracts of the eastern Caribbean. So pioneer settlements have been set up in places like St. Kitts and Barbados. These were becoming important plantations as well as Jamaica. And particularly in the 1660s, was the arrival of sugar, which suddenly became this incredibly valuable commodity.

[Anita Anand]

This is where we're heading towards rum now.

[Mark Horton]

Indeed we are. And huge quantities of sugar were being produced initially by indentured servants. These were sort of Irishmen and rebels and various other people who were shipped out from Ireland and from Scotland and so forth.

[Anita Anand]

These are the poor people who got shoved out of their houses during our Irish series, with the building of the plantations and the resettlement by English people of land previously owned by the Irish.

[Mark Horton]

But unfortunately, very rapidly ran out of these indentured servants. And some of them actually stayed on and became really quite wealthy plantation owners in their own right. But most of the indentured servants died, which meant that they had to then open up a slave trade to run the sugar plantations.

[William Durrymple]

So they didn't have to, but they did. They did.

[Mark Horton]

They did. So this is the context of Morgan.

[William Durrymple]

So that's the context, but also the conduct of Morgan is worth talking about because he and his men were ruthless, and their purpose, to subdue great numbers of people, as you said, you know, 470 men is what is he took on his nine ships. It's not that many. It's better than the 73 that we had earlier on where, you know, you had Drake coming with 73 men on his first adventure. But the way they do this is by terrorizing everybody. You know, shoot first, parley later. And they get this horrific reputation, so horrific in fact, for cruelty and putting, you know, their captives to the sword, that when they come across their first Spanish commander, he surrenders. Morgan's very gracious and saying, you know, we'll give you good terms on this. But the commander drinks poison rather than actually fall into the hands of Morgan. There's real terror in their wake.

[Mark Horton]

So it's hardly surprising that eventually the governor of Panama coughed up 100,000 pesos to save Portobello from destruction and massacre. So Morgan left Portobello largely intact with just huge quantities of plunder, but left the city intact. Act but then that was the basis of his fortune to become an extremely wealthy plantation owner in Jamaica.

[Anita Anand]

And is he already now shipping black enslaved people from West Africa, or is that the next thing that happens?

[Mark Horton]

This is the next thing. This is a little bit later. They're still using indentured servants, by and large, but the Royal African Company, who were basically incompetent. So the liberalization of slave trade only took place in urban about 1699, a few years later, because these nobles were not capable of shipping enough slaves required to run the plantations.

[Anita Anand]

Not just the nobles, but the Stuarts. It's a kind of Stuart monopoly, isn't it? It's very much run by the Stuarts for their own profit. Are there any Caribs left at this point, Mark, or are they been basically wiped out already?

[Mark Horton]

Caribs in Panama be pretty well wiped out. In the Caribbean, there are a few, but not many. And there's all sorts of funny people, descendants from. From shipwrecked African slaves who set up little communities themselves. And we don't know to what extent there's interbreeding between African slaves and the Caribs that survive. But in terms of pure Caribs, very, very few are surviving.

[William Durrymple]

So you've got now Morgan, who is proving himself to be terrifying and successful because he says to Portobello, we'll ransom you. If you don't give us the money, we'll burn you to the ground. And it must be in their memory that, you know, Drake did do that he did ransom a place and he wasn't kidding about. So they pay up and, you know, 100,000 pesos. He is a rich man, but it isn't enough for him because he's got his eye on Panama. Thought about one thing, he's rich beyond the dreams of most privateers, but he wants more. So tell us a little bit about how he starts zooming in on Panama.

[Mark Horton]

So he comes back two years later in 1670, and at this point his approach is slightly different. He goes to the Fort San Lorenzo, which is defending the entrance to the Chagres river and has combined basically English and French pirates, has an army of about 1400 men in total. And they sail up the Chagres and then manage to sail across, basically following the route followed by the later railroad and the canal and attack the. The city of Panama.

[Anita Anand]

This is what Drake wanted to do and never managed to do so.

[Mark Horton]

Never managed to do so. And they attacked it in a horrendous form and burnt the place to the ground into ruins to such an extent that there was nothing actually left. And so after Morgan retired, the Spanish rebuilt Panama and another location about four miles down the coast.

[Anita Anand]

Coast.

[Mark Horton]

And when you go there today, the ruins of old Panama are sitting there, another World Heritage site. And you could literally walk around this Spanish city as it was abandoned this frozen moment in 1670.

[William Durrymple]

And you just mentioned Fort San Lorenzo at the mouth of the Chagres River. I mean, that is the river that will later be dammed to create the Panama Canal. That's what it is, isn't it? That's where the location of people are sort of scratching around in their head.

[Mark Horton]

Heads.

[William Durrymple]

That's what we're talking about.

[Mark Horton]

That's right. So this is the route. So it shifts slightly to the west and basically Morgan is lining out that subsequent route across the isthmus, which is the lowest bit that you can cross.

[William Durrymple]

I mean, we talked about this before in the last episode. Are there people again pressing for a canal? Because it seems like a very doable thing and it's changing hands, this area. So, I mean, is there a petition going to the Brits saying, you know, we could really do with a canal here would be really helpful?

[Mark Horton]

No, I don't think so. And by the later 17th century, the Spanish Empire was pretty enfeebled, to tell you the truth, was running out of silver, was hugely bureaucratic. And I think this is the furthest from their idea that they were going to build a canal.

[Anita Anand]

So let's just finish off with Morgan. He unexpectedly Sort of joins the establishment. Charles ii, second night, sim. And he ends up as governor of Jamaica, improbably.

[Mark Horton]

That's right. He becomes this great ruffian. This ruffian becomes this great naval hero who has, as it were, bloodied the span. Of course we're now moving to the period of Anglo Spanish and Anglo French wars, which is ultimately creating as dispute over particularly the Caribbean islands and control of those Caribbean islands and their supply of sugar.

[William Durrymple]

So if you're a little pirate and you have a poster on your wall, it will be of Henry Morgan, who's now managed to become governor of Jamaica. Yes, Rich and powerful. So does that mean that there is a glut of pirates who follow in his wake, saying, you know, I'd like a bit of that too.

[Mark Horton]

That's right. They suddenly realise the wealth of Spain and Panama. And so the most famous and rather neglected expedition is the Great south sea Expedition of 1680, in which 350 pirates all meet at Golden Island.

[Anita Anand]

This is William Dampier is one of these, isn't he? We've talked about him.

[Mark Horton]

This is William Dampier who of course subsequently was the discoverer of Australia and various other pirates all then established and marched across the isthmus at this point following Balboa's route across the isthmus to the Trichinaqui where they find a Spanish city called San Maria el Rial, which has never been discovered.

[Anita Anand]

Which you discovered?

[Mark Horton]

Which I discovered. Went and rediscovered it, Yes, I stumbled upon it while I was surveying down there.

[Anita Anand]

Come on, tell us the story.

[Mark Horton]

Well, we just went into the bush and there was all these brick buildings sitting there lurking to be found.

[Anita Anand]

What were your finds there, Mark? Just lots of Spanish pottery or.

[Mark Horton]

Well, I was only there for a few hours because it was extremely dangerous because the FARC guerrillas from Colombia were very active in this part of Panama.

[William Durrymple]

Oh, wow.

[Mark Horton]

So there was a serious risk of being ambushed and kidnapped, which you wouldn't won. So the place remains unexplored, but I know where it is.

[William Durrymple]

So what did these three hundred and fifty pirates, including Dampier, what did they do?

[Mark Horton]

They persuaded the Indians to lend them some canoes and set about attacking various Spanish ships and managed to capture five Spanish warships in the process, which were empty, unfortunately. But they found a galleon with lots of pieces of 8 on board.

[Anita Anand]

60,000 pieces of 8.

[Mark Horton]

60,000 pieces of 8. Which would make to be paying the troops in Panama.

[Anita Anand]

That's doing better than Drake.

[Mark Horton]

That's right. Huge amounts. But they didn't succeed in attacking. They tried to attack Panama. But they were repelled. And then the pirate expedition, like all pirates, broke up in chaos. Some pirates returned back over the isthmus route, including Dampier and the surgeon, the man called Lionel Wafer, who left an account of the Indians that lived in the the centre of the isthmus, which is our first really detailed evidence of what they look like. He was stuck there for two years.

[Anita Anand]

Now, we can't let you off without that. You made that little hint about William Dampier in Australia. Now we all think that it's discovered by. Well, worked out, of course by Alexander Dalrymple, but discovered by some character called Captain Cook.

[William Durrymple]

Cook. He keeps trying to scream Dalrymple. We all learn it's Cook. But yes, as you were carrying.

[Mark Horton]

But no, no.

[Anita Anand]

How did Dampier beat him to it by 150 years?

[Mark Horton]

He beat him to it by 150 years. Now we know we have a really good narrative. His new voyage around the world. In 1702-1703, he sailed around the world. He knew his excitement for the South Seas was probably because he was there in that earlier South Seas expedition in the 1680s.

[Anita Anand]

Picking up pieces of eight.

[Mark Horton]

Picking up pieces of eight and realized that there was wealth to be had. And you know, he was a pirate, but also an explorer, a botanist and a really compulsive reader, actually, we should.

[Anita Anand]

Say, just in case anyone doesn't know and didn't grow up playing the board game Buccaneer Mark, tell us what a piece of eight is. What does it look like? Well, why is it so called?

[Mark Horton]

It's essentially a silver coin with the arms of Spain on one side. But it could be divided into up into eight slithers.

[Anita Anand]

If you were a pirate.

[Mark Horton]

If you were a pirate, you would find your eight pieces. So it was a divisible coin, so that's known as a piece of eight.

[Anita Anand]

And was it like a Cadbury's chocolate bar that you could just split up?

[Mark Horton]

Yes, absolutely. And was the Vardy may come of this period Anyway, so I just said the pirate expedition. So Captain Sharp, who was one of the pirate leaders, actually took one of the captured Spanish ships and sailed all the way down the coast of South America Broker and was the first person to round Cape Horn in an eastward direction rather than westward direction, thus laying the line for effectively that Cape Horning route that then kept the Australian economy going in the late 18th and 19th centuries.

[Anita Anand]

So, Mark, at what point does Dampier discover Australia and what does he actually see? Does he land? Does he. Does he see just the Top of the continent or the bottom?

[Mark Horton]

No, he comes along the top of the continent. So he basically goes along the north end end of Australia. And we have maps that basically very clearly show the shape of the basic northern territories.

[Anita Anand]

But if I saw a map the other day dating from about 1700, which has that line, and I had this conversation with the person in the map shop saying, how come Australia's there 100 years before Captain Cook and Dampier is the answer. I didn't know that.

[Mark Horton]

Yes, but we must just finish briefly one year later. Then I shall leave you to talk about the Panama canal. But in 1739, there's one last attack. Successful destruction, the Portobello by Admiral Vernon. And this is during the War of Jenkins here.

[William Durrymple]

Oh, yes, another thing we learn at school.

[Mark Horton]

Another. The War of Jenkins here. And successfully managed to attack and defeat Portobello. This was an official naval expedition to the Royal Navy in operation in Portobello. And that was really the last time that the English were engaged on the coast of Panama.

[William Durrymple]

Okay, look, you have set us up so beautifully because in the next episode we are going to start talking about finally when they get it into their heads that they can build a canal across this tiny strip of land. And it will be transformative. The Panama Canal. You can hear that straight away. If you don't like waiting by joining empirepoduk.com that's EmpirePod. And all of this is leading to where we started this entire series, which is why is this important to the current President of the United States, Donald Trump. But you know, till then, I just again would like to say how much of a pleasure it is to have you on Mark Horton, because you take us into all sorts of trenches we never thought or dreamt or imagined we.

[Anita Anand]

Would end up in an amazing number of places you discovered in your life. And we should just remind our wonderful listeners that they don't have to spend a piece of eight or even an eighth of a piece of an eight to join the Empire Club, which is a treasure trove equal to any doubloons or chests discovered by Drake or Morgan. Enter this box and wonders will pour out. You can access all our series in advance for free. You can get access to all sorts of. Tell them all the other things they can have.

[William Durrymple]

Chella, are you doing some such a good job of stumbling around in the treasure chest of doubloons? We have a newsletter. We have discounts on books that we talk about. We have early access to miniseries. So, for example, you won't have to wait for the the next one on the Panama Canal. If you're a member of our club, you get it straight away. And on top of that, there's a Discord community. You can chat amongst yourselves. No ads. I mean, honestly, the list is endless.

[Anita Anand]

It is a treasure trove. A Drachian mule train of delights.

[William Durrymple]

Yes, but anyway, if that doesn't tempt you, we'll meet you at the usual time. If it does, we'll see you in a minute. But till the next time we meet, it is goodbye from me, Anita Arnand.

[Anita Anand]

And goodbye from me, William Durrymple.