289. Medieval India’s Game of Thrones (Part 1)

Summary

Empire Podcast #289: Medieval India’s Game of Thrones (Part 1)

Host: William Dalrymple & Anita Anand
Guest: Anirudh Kanisetti (author, historian)
Date: September 10, 2025

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Overview

In this special "palate cleanser" episode between their Middle Eastern history series, William Dalrymple and Anita Anand are joined by historian Anirudh Kanisetti to explore the dramatic rise of the Chola Empire in medieval South India. Styled as India’s own "Game of Thrones," the episode delves into the region's dynamic power structures, the expansionist ambitions of the Cholas, their economic and cultural legacies, and features the saga of the formidable queen, Sembiyan Mahadevi, whose artistic patronage gave rise to one of India’s most iconic religious images: Shiva as Nataraja, Lord of the Dance.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Setting the Scene: From Suez to South India

• The hosts briefly reflect on their last Middle Eastern series, segueing into this "sorbet" episode on India before returning to the history of Gaza.
  [03:34] William Dalrymple: "Before we do that, we're going to give you a little palate cleanser... we're going to take you back into medieval Indian history. And a piece of Indian history that has always fascinated me—in many ways it's India's own Game of Thrones."

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The Central Icon: Nataraja – Shiva as Lord of the Dance

• The episode opens with a poetic invocation of Shiva as Nataraja, highlighting its unique place in Indian and even global culture.
• Anita Anand draws a fascinating connection to the Christian hymn "Lord of the Dance," noting its inspiration from the Nataraja icon.
  [06:46] Anita Anand: "Well, the one that we call the Nataraja. Lord of the Dance."
• Dalrymple explains the image’s spread and influence, noting, for instance, its monumental display in Cern’s Hadron Collider.
  [25:21] William Dalrymple: "When you walk into Cern, there is a giant Chola Nataraja sitting in the main entrance hall."

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Who Were the Cholas?

Geography and Origins

• Anirudh Kanisetti frames the Cholas in the context of early medieval Eurasia and India, pointing out their base in Tamil Nadu on the Coromandel Coast, a name possibly derived from "Chola Mandalam."
  • [09:03] Kanisetti: "The Cholas are based in the deep south of India, present day state of Tamil Nadu on the Coromandel coast... the English word cash, according to one of three possible etymologies, might be derived from kasu, which is a Tamil word which refers to a coin."

Historical Importance

• Cholas contrasted with familiar European kingdoms of the time—their realm boasted the tallest temple buildings in the world for centuries and projected power well beyond their borders.
• Cholas were compared to the Mongols in terms of influence on the Indian Ocean world and the spread of Hinduism in its most recognized form.
  • [10:14] Kanisetti: "Think of the Cholas as essentially the Mongols of the medieval Indian Ocean world. It's... the result of Chola conquests that you see new forms of economies, more interlinked regional circuits..."

Modern Resonance

• Their history is invoked in today’s Indian political discourse to underscore India’s historical might and expansionism.
  • [11:08] Kanisetti: "The Cholas speak to a contemporary Indian anxiety about our influence in the world... In the Cholas, it seems that we found a Hindu dynasty that does exactly that, even though to the Cholas it was more of a commercial enterprise..."

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The Chola "Game of Thrones": Power and Commerce

Power Dynamics and Expansionism

• The Cholas, almost uniquely for a South Indian dynasty, conquered northwards up to the Ganges and undertook naval raids across Southeast Asia, extending influence to Thailand, Malaysia, Laos, and the Maldives.
  [12:25] Anita Anand: "Even as far as the Maldives. I mean, you know, this is huge."
• Discussion of the "500," an enigmatic Tamil merchant guild with their own armies and influence—a proto–East India Company. [14:09] Dalrymple: "I came across your 500, this extraordinary guild... recording what sounds a bit like a sort of proto East India Company..."
• South India at this time was not just a "land of kings and peasants," but one of assemblies, collective rule, and dynamic exchanges between merchants, landholders, and warriors. [13:31] Kanisetti: "The reality of medieval South India... is that it's a land of assemblies, a land of collective rule, where villages are handling their own affairs."

Society and Wealth

• Chola society was marked by fluidity; merchants could be warriors and landholders.
• The image of wealth—gold, jewels, and temple art—largely derives from Chola bronzes, noted for their sensuous forms and minimal clothing due to the climate and cultural conventions.

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The Rise of the Cholas

Political Turbulence and Opportunity

• The landscape featured competing dynasties: Pallavas to the north, Pandyas to the south, and powerful Deccan empires like the Rashtrakutas curtailing direct rule.
  [20:15] Dalrymple: "The Cholas, in a sense, rise to power over the Pallavas, don't they?"
• The Cholas leveraged a "political vacuum" and local independence to rise, especially after the death of the last Pallava king.
• Key moment: Cholas defeat a combined Pandya-Sri Lankan force and achieve unprecedented projection of power over the sea—invading Sri Lanka and beyond. [21:37] Dalrymple: "The Cholas are the first Indian power to project their armies over the sea to Sri Lanka..."

Social Mobility and Temple Culture

• Chola campaign loot translated to temple building and social prestige through female patronage.

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Sembiyan Mahadevi: The Chola Queen as Patron and Icon

Biography and Social Context

• Sembiyan Mahadevi arrived as a lower-ranking royal wife, yet distinguished herself through intellect, strategy, and art patronage. [26:03] Kanisetti: "She enters the Chola family as one of the lower ranking daughters in law... These are intelligent, educated women who are talking to each other..."
• She initiated her role with modest temple donations (famously, 90 sheep) but rose to power after a series of family crises and succession upheavals. [27:23] Kanisetti: "She tells us all she's got to give are sheep."
• On her re-emergence from the historical record, Mahadevi embarked on a vast temple-building program, tying her family’s fortunes to religious and social legitimacy.

Artistic and Religious Innovation

• She chose Nataraja—the wild dancing Shiva of Chidambaram—as the Chola dynastic deity, elevating a regional form to global prominence. [37:36] Kanisetti: "But what Sembian does differently is... she picks up the wild dancing God of the swamp at Chidambaram and she puts him prominently on her temple."
• Her aesthetic patronage is likened to the Medici and Mughal taste-shapers, and she was instrumental in the creation of the legendary Chola bronzes.

Notable Quote:

"She is one of the greatest patrons of medieval Indian art... rivaling the greatest patrons of global art, the Mughals of North India and the Medicis of Tuscany."
—[37:39] William Dalrymple

The Sembiyan Mahadevi Bronze

• Discussion of an enigmatic bronze said to be a portrait of the queen herself—not the typical hyper-idealized Chola form, but conveying strength, athleticism, and individual realism. [29:47] Dalrymple: "This figure is not that ideal. It's a very particular portrait sculpture of someone that actually looks like a real person... She's dignified, regally, poised..."
• Its fate and exportation—controversial acquisition in Western museums, especially the Freer Collection in Washington, D.C.
• Attributes:
  • Narrow hips, athletic build—possibly symbolizing she would bear no more children.
  • Elongated earlobes, denoting spirituality.
  • Artistic charisma and individuality. [30:47] Dalrymple: "She is her own individual, strong self and she's also, I mean, it's just one of the great masterpieces of Indian art..."

Debate Over Identification

• While hard evidence for the statue's specific subject is lacking, scholarly consensus (notably Vidya Dehejia) supports the identification as Sembiyan Mahadevi.

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Chola Religious Sensuality and Living Gods

• Chola bronzes aren’t only art—they are devotional, "living" gods; the podcast recounts details of how cast bronzes were processed and venerated, and the sensual intimacy depicted between Shiva and Parvati. [41:25] Anita Anand: “At night they take out the nose jewel from Parvati’s nose so that when they do make love it won’t scratch... these are envisaged as living gods.”

Notable Passage (from Dalrymple’s "Nine Lives"):

"...these Chola bronze deities are some of the greatest works of art ever created in India... few sculptors, other than perhaps Donatello or Rodin, have achieved the pure essence of sensuality so spectacularly evoked."

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Ending & Next Episode Tease

• The episode concludes with Sembiyan Mahadevi’s consolidation of Chola religious and artistic supremacy, setting the scene for the further expansion and golden age of the Chola Empire—promising more drama, power, and cultural achievement in Part 2.
  [42:33] Anita Anand: “Let’s find out what the Cholas do next, with the power that is growing and the loyalty of the people that is growing around them.”

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• "If you were to imagine Europe at the turn of the first millennium CE... Raja Raja Chola... was preparing to build the most stupendous monument that had been seen in centuries." — Anirudh Kanisetti [08:13]
• "Think of the Cholas as essentially the Mongols of the medieval Indian Ocean world..." — Anirudh Kanisetti [10:14]
• "The reality of medieval South India... is that it's a land of assemblies, it's a land of collective rule, where villages are handling their own affairs." — Anirudh Kanisetti [13:31]
• "Sembiyan picks up a form of Shiva who's not from the Cagiri. She picks up the wild dancing God of the swamp at Chidambaram and she puts him prominently on her temple." — Anirudh Kanisetti [37:39]
• "She is her own individual, strong self and she's also... one of the great masterpieces of Indian art." — William Dalrymple [30:47]
• "She is one of the greatest patrons of medieval Indian art... rivaling the greatest patrons of global art, the Mughals... and the Medicis." — William Dalrymple [37:39]

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Structurally Important Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------------------|------------| | Introduction & Transition from Suez series | 01:44–04:20| | Nataraja Statue & Western Hymn Connection | 04:18–07:23| | Who Were the Cholas? | 07:29–11:46| | Chola Expansion and the "500" Merchant Guild | 11:46–15:32| | Power Dynamics & Chola Society | 15:32–19:52| | The Chola Rise: Political Circumstances | 19:53–22:54| | Sembiyan Mahadevi’s Role & Artistic Influence | 24:56–32:55| | The Chola Bronzes & Artistic Ideals | 32:11–41:11| | Chola Sensuality and Devotional Practice | 41:11–42:33| | Conclusion & Tease for Part 2 | 42:33–43:04|

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Tone & Narrative

The hosts balance scholarly insight with an accessible, engaging style. Anita Anand’s enthusiasm for powerful historical women is palpable, while William Dalrymple brings poetic language and firsthand research. Anirudh Kanisetti combines academic authority with vivid storytelling, making medieval Indian history immediate and relevant.

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For Listeners New to the Topic

This episode offers a richly human and multidimensional perspective on empire:

• The Cholas, far from being obscure, were one of the world’s great medieval powers, whose legacy endures in both art and global commerce.
• The figure of Sembiyan Mahadevi and the Nataraja statue embodies the intersection of religious devotion, political strategy, and artistic innovation.
• The conversation busts myths of static, hierarchical, or solely king-driven “Orientalist” India—highlighting dynamic, participatory societies driven by collective action, commerce, and female agency.

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Stay tuned for Part 2, where the saga of the Cholas—India’s real-life Game of Thrones—unfolds further!

Transcript

[William Dalrymple]

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[Anirudh Kanisetti]

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[William Dalrymple]

To tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Anita Anand]

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[William Dalrymple]

Cementmobile.com if you thought goldenly breaded McDonald's chicken couldn't get more golden, think Golder because new sweet and smoky special edition gold sauce is here made for your chicken favorites and participate at McDonald's for a limited time. United Healthcare nurse Crystal checked in on a patient. We do a routine call after surgery and I could tell in her voice that she was struggling. Crystal knew she needed help.

[Anita Anand]

I knew that this is very serious.

[William Dalrymple]

This is like septic, this is life threatening. And she knew just what to do. And I called the hospital and said she's coming in. Here are her labs and got her the help she needed. I see my role at UnitedHealthcare as a life saving role. Hear more stories like [e-mail] benefits, features, features and or devices vary by plan. Area limitation and exclusions apply.

[Anita Anand]

Hello and welcome to Empire with me.

[William Dalrymple]

Anita Arnan and me, William Dalrymple. And we hope you enjoyed this series on Sewers with Alex on Tinselman, which I think is our most popular ever series. The first episode, Mockbuster, the blockbuster.

[Anita Anand]

Absolutely.

[William Dalrymple]

I just loved it. We had so many comments on Twitter, particularly Anita's hot crush for Gamal Abdul Nasser, the pin up.

[Anita Anand]

What I found actually, rather than Nasser being very good looking, undisputably very good looking, and we know it's undisputable because it got right up Anthony Eden's nose. And you know what I loved was the psychodrama of the whole situation. So I mean, those of you who haven't gone to listen, go back and listen. Eden is completely convulsed with the idea that his younger, much younger, much prettier wife may be falling under the thrall of a Dashing NASA. And I just, I love that with Alex. You know, you get the sort of the big characters of history, but yeah, they're humans, aren't they? At the end of the day, flesh and blood with all of the insecurities that we all carry.

[William Dalrymple]

That's an extraordinary story. Anyway, as you may be aware, cause we've been putting it up online. We will soon be starting another Middle Eastern series and this is on the history of Gaza, which I don't anyone has done. I'd be looking online for, you know, any broadcaster in the world has actually done this. Which is bizarre considering it's been in the headlines of every single newspaper every day for the last two years. Starting all the way back with the Egyptian pharaoh Thutmose iii. Through the Crusades, through the British Mandate and the Nakba, up to the rise of Hamas, of course.

[Anita Anand]

I mean, one of the reasons perhaps that nobody has done this is, is that it is emotional, tricky, a difficult thing to discuss. But we think everyone should perhaps have an insight into the history behind the headlines.

[William Dalrymple]

It's a huge and obviously very controversial and emotional and exciting thing to do. But before we do that, we're going to give you a little palate cleanser, a little sorbet in between your two Middle Eastern courses and we are going to take you back just for one week into medieval Indian history. And a piece of Indian history that has always fascinated me in many ways it's India's own Game of Thrones. And I think people in South India know this history very well and they're very proud of it. But even people in the north don't cover those. And I think it's one of the great stories from India and it's the story of the Chola kingdom, which from the 10th century expanded outwards not just in India, but into Southeast Asia and raided as far as Singapore and the Malacca Straits.

[Anita Anand]

And the reason I'm fully invested is because there is a woman at the heart of this story, one of these sort of kick ass queens of history who is responsible for the rise of one of India's most iconic images. Now you'll know it if I say Nataraja. You might not recognise what that means unless you are from India. But the dancing Shiva, now you'll know that figure. It's sort of normally surrounded in a, in a circle, sort of sometimes embellished with flames. With the dancing God, a drum in one hand, his third eye open, doing the dance of destruction. It is exactly that image that inspired a Christian hymn writer to Come up with Lord of the Dance. I am the Lord of the Dance, said he. So look, we hope you really like this because we love making it.

[William Dalrymple]

Our king. Sweet ambrosia to me abides in the dancing hall of Southern Tillai Humming with tuneful bees Shrine radiating light like a blaze of lightning Circled by towers with fluttering white flags the golden mountain rising before us. When shall I attain him? King, you dance on stage before the 3000 Brahmin priests. When shall I get to see your dance, Father? In the shrine of Shavan Talai where bees humming tunes sing the four Vedas chanted by your 3,000 priests who serve you in utter devotion. When will I get to see you dance? In Ampalam hall the immortal crowned with the moon the King of the golden Ampalam hall in Tillai sprout of wisdom. When shall I join him? When the whole world beseeched him he graced Patanjali with a vision of his dance Dances in the Golden Ampoulem hall in Talai and the gods worship him there. When shall I see him?

[Anita Anand]

It's a very nice start. Very nice. It's very nice. When shall I see him? I was going to say. Well, look, we see him. He's here. William Dalrymple and Anita Arnand for a very special Empire podcast.

[William Dalrymple]

Anyway, I should explain what all that was about. So that poem is about the God who became the greatest icon in all Indian art, the Dancing Shiva. It's that round statue of the God with one leg raised with fire in his hand. That's become, in a sense, a shorthand for Indian art.

[Anita Anand]

Well, the one that we call the Nataraja. Lord of the Dance.

[William Dalrymple]

Lord of Dance, which then inspired, weirdly, the Christian hymn, Lord of the Dance. You never brought up.

[Anita Anand]

Well, I did. I mean, I know the Lord of the Dance hymn, but I didn't think it was a direct dance. Then. Wherever you may be, I am the Lord of the Dance.

[William Dalrymple]

It was a Quaker who had, for some reason, an image of the dancing Shiva on the front of his desk.

[Anita Anand]

Good Lord.

[William Dalrymple]

And he thought that he was gonna be accused of heresy for writing this hymn. And it actually took off and become one of the most popular Christian hymns. Bizarrely, although 90, 99% of the people that listen to that hymn or sing it have no idea that it's referring.

[Anita Anand]

I will lead you all Wherever you may be I will lead you all in the dance, said he. I know, I know.

[William Dalrymple]

I'm very impressed, Nita.

[Anita Anand]

Thank you very much.

[William Dalrymple]

Good, common, educated girl.

[Anita Anand]

Very much so. Sister Francesca, would burst with pride indeed.

[William Dalrymple]

Anyway, we are here because we are meeting with one of the great meteors of Indian history, Anirud Cannesetti, who, although still in his early or mid-20s.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

I'm 30.

[William Dalrymple]

You're 30, but you still look.

[Anita Anand]

You wear it very lightly.

[William Dalrymple]

You wear it very lightly in a.

[Anita Anand]

Kind of sickening kind of way.

[William Dalrymple]

He looks very young. Anyway, this is not his first but his second book. Both books have been met with astonishing acclaim. And the new book is called Lords of the Earth and A History of the Chola Empire Now. And first of all, you should explain for most of our readers and listeners will absolutely not know who the Cholas are. So give us a very basic explanation of who these people we're going to talk about for the next two episodes.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Well, if you were to imagine Europe at the turn of the first millennium ce, you'd see a world very much in flux. The great kingdoms that we are most familiar with in Europe, Norman England, for example, does not exist. The unified kingdom of France does not exist. But at the same time, on the other side of the globe, Raja Raja Chola, a title which means king of kings, was preparing to build the most stupendous monument that had been seen in centuries, really since the construction of the.

[William Dalrymple]

Pyramids, the tallest temple and what will.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Remain the tallest temple, the tallest temple on earth for quite a long time.

[William Dalrymple]

Probably the building of what, Angkor Wat a couple of centuries later.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

It's much taller than Angkor. I think it's only Westminster abbey in the 13th century that manages to really top the Cholas.

[Anita Anand]

So that's astonishing. And just give us a geographical location.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

So the Cholas are based in the deep south of India, present day state of Tamil Nadu on the Coromandel coast, which as it happens actually derives from Chola Mandalam or the Chola Circle, which is of course what they call their home territories.

[Anita Anand]

I didn't know Coromandel came from that. That's delicious.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

That's where it comes from. And the English word cash, according to one of three possible etymologies, might be derived from kasu, which is a Tamil word which refers to a coin. Portuguese traders used the term. I think it's pronounced kasha because of the kasu and its. We also see the same term used in records from the British Raj as well. It's one of three possible etymologies, I should be perfectly clear. But the cholas have a much, much bigger impact on the world economy and the way the world functions than we otherwise give them credit for.

[William Dalrymple]

And anyone that's read medieval Indian history, particularly anyone who's not familiar with India, often comes across this blur of different dynasties with long, complicated names. The Ikvashkus, the Rastrakutas, the Chalukyas. Why have you chosen particularly the Cholas to concentrate on what distinguishes them, what makes them stand out from the run of the mill of all these different mandalas, as historians call them, these circles of different competing kings?

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Well, think of the Cholas as essentially the Mongols of the medieval Indian Ocean world. It's directly as a result of Chola conquests that you see new forms of economies, more interlinked regional circuits in the Indian Ocean world. And you'll see the development of Hinduism in its most recognisable form. As you said a bit earlier. Well, Nataraja, the most famous symbol of Hinduism, and it's not even a comparison like, by far, I think he is the most iconic symbol of the world.

[Anita Anand]

Sure. Apart from Ganesh, there is only one other image people were hearing, Nataraja, which is the lord of the tiles. Can I ask you one other thing? I mean, the politics, though, of the Cholas. The Cholas we hear a lot because in politics right now, they will talk about the Marathas and the Cholas. These are the two they've kind of, or am I imagining this, the two that are.

[William Dalrymple]

And Vijayanagara, the kings of Hampi.

[Anita Anand]

Yeah. Sort of highlighted and spoken about as the zenith of, you know, India's greatness.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Well, the Cholas, I think, also speak to a contemporary Indian anxiety about our influence in the world at large. The Cholas were this martial, aggressive, but also tremendously innovative dynasty that took Indian polities, Indian diasporas, to shows where they hadn't been present at the same scale before. I think they speak to a very contemporary anxiety, a contemporary yearning for India to be a world superpower again, to be able to boss around our neighbours again. And in the Cholas, it seems that we found a Hindu dynasty that does exactly that, even though to the Cholas it was more of a commercial enterprise than anything else, as hopefully we'll get into in this conversation.

[William Dalrymple]

The reason I think, that Hindu nationalists love the idea of the Cholas is not only did they march from the south of India right up famously to the Ganges and conquer, uniquely, a south Indian dynasty conquering the north rather than the reverse, which is what happens in most of Indian history. There's also this thing, which we'll be discussing, particularly in the next episode, about this extraordinary moment, almost unique in Indian history, when an Indian naval force Leaves the shores of India and raids and possibly even conquers the Malacca Straits. Great areas of Thailand and Malaysia, Laos, and I mean, claims are made for, you know, the whole of Southeast Asia.

[Anita Anand]

Even as far as the Maldives. I mean, you know, this is a huge.

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah, so these. So there's this vast area which is. And Anirud, we should say, we should explain, has stepped into this debate with some very clear views, which you hinted at just then, that a lot of it, you think is the power of the Equivalent. Remember in Game of Thrones, the Iron Bank.

[Anita Anand]

Oh, yes.

[William Dalrymple]

Those sort of mysterious trade essos, if.

[Anita Anand]

You really want to know.

[William Dalrymple]

Yes, essos with the Iron Bank. In some ways, Cholo is a bit like that because they have these. The 500, this mysterious trading guild which has its own armies, its assassins.

[Anita Anand]

Tell us about the 500. So who were they and where did they get their money from?

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Well, the really important thing to understand about medieval India is that I think we tend to think of it as a land of kings and peasants. These. Well, the Hindu nationalist imagination, these ultra masculine kings, in the Orientalist imagination, these are foppish kings sitting around in the harem. But the idea is that it's a world of kings and peasants. But the reality of medieval South India, specifically the place where the cholas came from, is that it's a land of assemblies, it's a land of collective rule, where villages are handling their own affairs.

[Anita Anand]

Well, like Pinchayats that we think of today, sort of like a local.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Something like that. Yes. It's essentially the thing is that private property as a concept doesn't really exist at this point of Indian history. These are all collectively owned lands which a bunch of families are cultivating. And of course, these families take the decisions about what needs to happen to the land. The king has very little to do with that. And this idea, this idea of collective decision making extends to everything in this part of India, especially to commerce. So very often decisions about finance and what goods need to be imported, where and what tariffs need to be paid on these goods are not being taken by royal courts, but by merchant assemblies.

[William Dalrymple]

I should say that in my book the Golden Road, I came across your 500, this extraordinary guild very frequently because they leave inscriptions right across Southeast Asia, which you can read today in places like Singapore and Sumatra, long way away from India, recording what sounds a bit like a sort of proto East India Company. Just like the East India Company founds trading settlements at Bombay, Calcutta and Madras. So you get the equivalent with the 500. This. This Tamil merchant Guild establishing outposts where you're getting Tamil inscriptions, style temples, little sort of goldsmiths touchstones, with little Tamil inscriptions associated with the guild. So you've got a whole trading world that suddenly illuminated. So what we're going to be discussing in the next two episodes are these extraordinary kings associated also with merchant guilds, who extend their influence right across India and project it deep into Southeast Asia, whether controversially, as you say, through the trading guilds or directly through their own. And this is something we'll be discussing in the next episode. But let's just open now with your account of the rise of the cholas. How out of this landscape of villages that you've beautifully painted in this rich soil around the rivers, particularly the Kaveri river in South India, how does this one dynasty rise up and really establish itself over this vast area?

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

It's this rhythmic, almost seasonal process. The main source that we have to reconstruct the rise of the Cholas is inscriptions made in temples. But the really interesting thing is that I want you to imagine this landscape of the Kaveri, this lush green of villages with muddy canals between them. And all these villages have at their center a little temple of mud brick and wood. All the houses are mostly mud hovels. You might see the occasional large whitewashed mansion of an esquire, a member of the. Or you might see a more well maintained little settlement of Brahmins who owned the lands surrounding them. And very occasionally in between, this very variegated landscape where you see market towns, and even more rarely than the market towns, are royal courts. It's important to remember the Cholas. It was by no means evident in the early 10th century that Cholas were going to emerge as the great superstars of medieval South India. They were loomed over by the great Deccan Plateau, this vast landmass the size of Germany, this dry, arid upland region, home to great and terrible empires that would raid the coastal areas of the Cauvery, where the Tamil speakers lived. And the Tamil speakers lived in these assemblies, in these villages that we've just seen.

[William Dalrymple]

In your last book, you particularly talked about the Rashtrakutas, who, again, were one of these kingdoms that are in the textbooks. And it's a name that has almost no resonance because we don't particularly associate any sort of particular.

[Anita Anand]

Well, in the west, they will never have heard of that word.

[William Dalrymple]

Most people never have heard of them. But you showed that the Rashtrakutas who were in the Deccan were in fact considered one of the four great world powers of the 8th century.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

We have Arab travellers accounts that describe the Rashtrakutas as being on par with the Abbasid Caliph, with the Emperor of China, with the Byzantine Emperor. You have to keep in mind that when you're talking about the rise of the cholas, we're talking about them in the shadows of what was considered to be one of the greatest empires of the age.

[Anita Anand]

So, I mean, let's do it through archaeological record. I just want to paint a picture of what the cholas were and how they lived. So are we talking about noble class that wears gold and jewels and bling and shows off their wealth and power that way? And a merchant class? I mean, what do they look like, what do they spend? What is kind of the wealth that we are looking at in the archaeological index?

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

What we're looking at is it's a very diverse society where it isn't actually possible to draw this very clear line sometimes. Because in medieval Saudi, it is possible for a merchant to be a landowner, to be a courtier and vice versa. The lines weren't as clear as they later became. Merchants could be warriors.

[Anita Anand]

Sure. I suppose what I'm asking is that most people, particularly who don't live in India, I mean, even in India, they think of the Mahabharata, they think of the big golden crowns, the big jeweled bandoliers. That's the image they have of wealth and power. And I just want to know, in comparison with what we've been taught is wealth and power, where did the cholas kind of rank?

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Well, to a great extent, I would say our image of what medieval India looked like comes from chola images. It's because chola bronzes are everywhere in Western museum collections. It's because you see these great jeweled bracelets on, you see these towering tiered crowns and these body necklaces made of thousands of pearls stretched across the body.

[William Dalrymple]

But we should also say, I mean, and this is what strikes a Western observer when they see those brothers for the first time wearing very little else except.

[Anita Anand]

Except jewels and gold and bling.

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah, absolutely. And they are incredibly sexy and largely unclothed figures with only the slight sign of sort of ripples of cloth around their ankles.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

I would dare anyone who is startled by the chola's lack of clothing to wear more clothing than that in the heat of the Kamiri summer and see how they go.

[Anita Anand]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[William Dalrymple]

So to answer, as Mahatma Gandhi famously said, George iii, who was it who summoned him to Buckingham palace? When he was asked why he was only just wearing a lungi, he Said His Majesty is wearing enough for both of us.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

So the aristocratic class of this 10th century village dominated world weren't as wealthy as they later became. All these bronzes are produced when the Cholas are the height of their superstardom, when they, they've conquered the treasuries of rival kingdoms. So you can imagine that, yes, they did have some amount of jewelry, but they wouldn't have looked that different from most people who lived at the time.

[Anita Anand]

Right, okay.

[William Dalrymple]

And take us through the beginning of their eyes, because in previous episodes of this podcast, we've talked about the Pallavas in Khachipuram. Again, South Indian kings who are trading with Southeast Asia and taking their ideas of Hindu kingship to Cambodia and Laos and Vietnam. The Cholas, in a sense, rise to power over the Palavas, don't they?

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

So the Cholas are in this very interesting geopolitical situation where the Kaveri, being a land of these independent villages, was, wasn't a place where kings really enjoyed projecting too much power. So the Pallavas are off to their north. Far to the south are a rival dynasty called the Pandyas. And neither the Pallavas nor the Pandyas can figure out what the hell to do with the Kaveri area because it is just too independent. So by playing these kings off against each other, the early Cholas managed to rise up into this political vacuum. In the late 9th century, the last Pallava king dies in battle, near the Cauvery area, in fact. And this is what really allows the Cholas to rise, because all of a sudden there's this vast, urban, commercially rich territory up to their north.

[Anita Anand]

The gate is open and they can walk straight through. Right.

[William Dalrymple]

In your book, you have this lovely description of this battle where the Pandyas of Madurai, who are the rival power, summon the kings of Sri Lanka from over the waters and the two of them fight the cholas. But the Cholas defeat them and eventually drive them back. And then in a startling new development, the Cholas are the first Indian power to project their armies over the sea to Sri Lanka. So we see what is initially a South Indian army fighting an invasion, reversing that radically, and suddenly leading warships over the Palc Strait into Sri Lanka. Tell us about all that.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

It must have been an absolutely bizarre development for the early Chola kings to suddenly be on the dominant side of a war. As you said, Will, the Pandyas and the Sri Lankans were the most powerful of the South Indian kings. There was no reason for them to expect that they would not be able to conquer the cholas. But not only do the cholas hold their own in battle, there's an attack of this terrible disease in the Lankan camp. We're not sure exactly what it was.

[William Dalrymple]

Smallpox.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

It may have been smallpox. It may have been malaria in the marshes of the Kaveri Delta. But the Sri Lankan crown prince dies on India's shore, and the Lankans have to retreat with their tail between their legs. But the cholas don't leave it at that. The way that medieval Indian polities worked is that kings would go to war when once in between the harvest season and the planting season, you would have a whole bunch of time. When the village toughies were waiting for employment, the king would come along, take them off to war. And the loot that they would get, they would give it to their wives once they came back from the campaign, and the wise would invest it in temples. So I talked a little earlier about how all these villagers have their own little brick temple. And what chola queens would do is they use the wealth their husbands got from war to rebuild these temples in stone, with, of course, a little description of their husband's martial exploits.

[Anita Anand]

Well, you have entirely beautifully led us to a break here, because when we come back from the break, we're going to talk about arguably the greatest Chula Queen of all time. Think Xena. Think Warrior Princess. Think. Also Medici. Roll it all into one. Join us after the break and we'll explain.

[William Dalrymple]

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[Anirudh Kanisetti]

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[Anita Anand]

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[Anita Anand]

Welcome back. So just before the break, I was sort of teasing you about this great character who, predictably, I have fallen head over heels in love with. Like I do with a powerful woman, Sembian Mahadevi, who is largely responsible for giving the world this nataraja image that you will find in, in most Hindu households, in most temples, and indeed in most Western collections of Hindu art.

[William Dalrymple]

And above all, and most famously now in Cern in the height, what's it called?

[Anita Anand]

The Collider.

[William Dalrymple]

The Collider.

[Anita Anand]

Hadron Collider.

[William Dalrymple]

At the Hydron Collider. When you walk into Cern, there is a giant chola Natraj sitting in the main entrance hall of cern, apparently.

[Anita Anand]

Just remind me one day to tell you I've been there. When it was turned off and we.

[William Dalrymple]

Walked through the tunnel, that's when the beer bottle got put in there. Famously. There was a beer bottle found in the collider.

[Anita Anand]

We didn't.

[William Dalrymple]

I bet that was. That was Ravi or one of your boys.

[Anita Anand]

My nine year old son. It was years before they were born and we didn't leave any detritus at all. But tell us about Semyon Mahadevi, because I'm fascinated by her.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

She enters the chola family as one of the lower ranking daughters in law. These are families where the men had many wives. These wives tended to come from well educated, moneyed backgrounds. So they weren't just sitting around in the palaces waiting for the kings to come to the harem, as the stereotype goes. These are intelligent, educated women who are talking to each other, exchanging ideas about architecture, and wealthy enough, as I said, to import tons of stone to rebuild temples. And they pick their temples carefully, strategically.

[Anita Anand]

So would they sit with an architect and say, look, I'm getting. I've paid for the stone. This is where I want it and this is what I want it to look like.

[William Dalrymple]

Now they're like Anita redoing her kitchen.

[Anita Anand]

Yeah, well, I mean, well, indeed. Is that how it would happen? This is my vision. Make it happen.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Something very similar to that. We know that the more important families had their own guilds of sculptors and they would have a template of what they would do for a particular family. But they knew how to throw in bells and whistles to embellish it depending on the patron's personality.

[Anita Anand]

Which is why they have. The chola architecture has this really beautiful kind of intricacy about it. They're festooned with carvings from scripture and rather charmingly anrod.

[William Dalrymple]

In your book you say that the first known inscription about our heroine Sembyan Mahadevi is when she donates a modest 90 sheep to the local temple. Is that the first?

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Yeah. Well and you got to think about it in terms of what was happening with the other daughters in law. These are ladies who are coming in with attendants carrying chests of treasure. The architects snapping to their every command. And this princess who comes in from the hills surrounding chola territory, she's the daughter of a hill chief. She tells us all she's got to give are sheep. Her retinue you can imagine was loud and noisy and had a ton of animals compared to the Aristotle 90 sheep.

[Anita Anand]

They're not quiet. She doesn't approach by stealth. What I'm really interested in is we don't know very much about her apart from this story about the 90s sheep and that she's very well off and she's very strong minded and yet hers is the figure that we perhaps know best of all partly because of a controversy over this three and a half foot statue. Because there was a lot of, let's.

[William Dalrymple]

Put it this way, hours in front of it. It's one of the most beautiful statues.

[Anita Anand]

So there was a lot of controversy about how it ended up in, in the Freer collection and in New York and who had it and had it been stolen and did it go missing in 1929? There's a whole sort of legal sort of tangle going on about it. If you want to have a look, Google it. Malone and friends don't bother me, I just googled so. But this statue is the one that you fell in love with. 3 1/2ft tall, describe what it looks like.

[William Dalrymple]

So what's immediately apparent if you, if you've looked at a few chola bronzes is that there's a very clear ideal of what a chola bronze maker wanted a devi, a goddess to look like. And they have this very particular perfect figure and frankly enormous breasts.

[Anita Anand]

She's got beautiful rounded hips. I would say she's.

[William Dalrymple]

Well, what I'm saying is that this figure is not that ideal. It's a very particular portrait sculpture of someone that actually looks like a real person rather than an idealized man's ide of what a woman should look like. And she's dignified, regally, poised. She's elegant. She's very clearly resting her weight on her left foot and she's got her right leg slightly bent. She's holding her head high. She's a queen. She's very clearly this sort of regal princess figure. Oval face, quite long oval face, straight nose, serene, calm, relaxed, with these very unusual sloping shoulders. It's just like any other chola bronze. Her left hand rests downwards, her right is bent to hold what I think is now a missing lotus or a water lily or something like that. And she's got kind of low slung long skirts hugging her thighs and legs with a very simple belt. Her hips are exceptionally narrow and some art historians, particularly the one full Vidyadh Hegya who Anirudh and I have closely followed and are great admirers of Vidya de Hejia wondered whether this was a way, these hips, the way they do it is a way of suggesting that she was a woman who would bear no more children.

[Anita Anand]

Oh, interesting.

[William Dalrymple]

She only had that one child and so it's not the kind of the super voluptuous, normal chola supermodel.

[Anita Anand]

It's not sex bond.

[William Dalrymple]

It's a very particular portrait sculpture.

[Anita Anand]

It's strong, it's a strong. But I. And one final detail. Sorry, sorry, male gaze for a second female gaze, but she's entirely strong, Amazonian and feminine. There's a femininity about her long neck, her long limbs, the power in her sort of thighs and hips, which is. She's sporty, she's a sporty woman.

[William Dalrymple]

It looks like she's also a woman that clearly has her own ideas, this sculpture, she's poised as if in the middle of a conversation. She looks like she's just sort of given the servants a dressing down or is about to order somebody to take 90 sheeps to a temple, that sort of thing. But they've also got, and this is quite important, these very elongated earlobes. And that in Indian temple imagery is a sign of spirituality because every God and goddess in the hindipanthin has these same earlobes. And she's also just, finally just got this charisma. She is her own individual, strong self and she's also, I mean, it's just one of the great masterpieces of Indian art. And. And when you go to the room in the frere in Washington where it is now, there may be not much longer if, if, as you tell us.

[Anita Anand]

And how it got there.

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah, to be stolen. It's one of the great masterpieces and, and, and you know, arguably the greatest of all female portraits.

[Anita Anand]

So what I wanted to say about it, it's to me feels like a statue of a woman commissioned by a woman. Women. Because it isn't that sort of the hypersexualized, you know, big boobs, big hips, you know, sort of voluptuous. It isn't, it's, but it's, but it's strength and it's power. And to me it looks like an athlete, an intelligent body. What I want to know though is how do we know it's her? How do we know?

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Professor Daheji has some ideas. Her arguments are mostly based on her perception of Sembian's personality as it comes.

[William Dalrymple]

Across from inscription, but also the date and where these were found.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

The date and style is about right. But we don't have, have hard evidence that this is definitely her. We know that she did commission a bronze of herself. We know that it may have been a bronze of herself as the goddess Parvati. And here we have this bronze that is of Parvati.

[William Dalrymple]

Vidya makes such a forceful case for it.

[Anita Anand]

Who is Vidya?

[William Dalrymple]

Vidya Dahea, our historian friend who worked in the Freya for many years and who built up the collection, who kind of passed this statue every day. So certainly in her mind and she is the great expert on.

[Anita Anand]

Well, okay, I'm not going to argue with anything.

[William Dalrymple]

What Bernard Berenson was to Florentine painting.

[Anita Anand]

I'm convinced. But the power that's sort of expressed in that statue and in her physique, it does come along with the story of this is a woman whose husband has died young as well, who is standing on her own two feet. Tell us a little bit about what we do know for sure about the real woman's circumstances.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

So we know that she wasn't the wealthiest princess to enter the Chola family through marriage in the early 10th century. We know that the Chola family was thrown to upheaval in the mid 10th century949, when Sembian's brother in law was killed on the battlefield. And he was the heir apparent by.

[William Dalrymple]

Your friends the Rashtrakutas?

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Yes, by my friends the Rashtrakutas, the builders of Ellora, the great emperors of southern India at the time. And what happens is that in the turmoil that follows, medieval families were extremely political. Very often you see that princes were put position in different parts of the territory and were allowed to build up their own retinues before the king took a decision on who was going to be ruling. And so the throne fell to Sembian's husband, a man called Gandar Aditya. The poem that we opened this podcast.

[Anita Anand]

With the where is he? The refrain where is he?

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

That was written by Sembian's husband. And it seems that at some point while the husband was still alive, the both of them visited Chidambaram, which today is one of the great sites of Shaivism, of the worship of Shiva, but.

[William Dalrymple]

Wasn'T one of the largest and dazzling temples in Satanid magazine.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

It's massive, it's sprawling, but it was a little shrine in a mangrove swamp when Sembian would have first seen it. Her husband died sometime in the 950s, leaving her to raise a young son. Her brothers in law take the throne, and for a couple of decades, Sembian disappears from the historical record. We have no idea what she was doing. Because if somebody wasn't gifting to temples, if somebody wasn't writing their name on stone, it doesn't survive survive from this period in South Indian history. But she reappears in great style in the 970s when after yet another round of family shakeups, her husband becomes king. And what she does immediately after is quite extraordinary. She builds this grand new temple right in the backyard of the Chola kingdom. She purchases lands, names a flower garden after her husband and asks the local Brahmins to look after it. And she also commissions this lovely little portrait of her husband worshipping Shiva. And behind him their son is sitting holding a royal umbrella. And she's got this long inscription saying, this is the gracious king Gandar Aditya and his gracious son, the gracious king Uttama. And this temple was commissioned by Uttama's gracious mother.

[Anita Anand]

It's propaganda. It's like a proper propaganda thing of we are here and we are important. Exactly how interesting. Can I also ask, you know, the link to Lord Shiva and just to remind people who he is, because if you're not familiar with the Hindu pantheon, he is part of the Triumvirate. He is the destroyer. Like, he does the dance, when he does that Nataraja dance, it is the dance of destruction. He raises everything to the ground that it may be created again by Brahma sustained by Vishnu. So this is like a little potted Hinduism for you. But he's also the most innocent, the most playful of the Triumvirate. He likes music, he has a short temper. He regrets things very quickly. He's called Bholenath. You know, the innocent one, because he's frequently conned by everybody into giving them ridiculous wishes that everybody else in the pantheon has to undo. Is it her decision to pick out Shiva or is it her family's decision to pick up Shiva as the one who is going to be their God, if you like. Because every dynasty had had an opportunity to pick a God and many of them picked Vishnu because he had sort of the biggest flex out of the trifecta. He was the one who had the most power, the most avatars, you know, the most stuff in his quiver. Why Shiva? Why this family?

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Well, he was popular with peasants and the cholas seem to have done, generally speaking, what the peasants would have liked. And I think that you very clearly see this idea I was alluding to earlier, which is that it's not always the kings telling the peasant what to do. Very often, because Tamil peasants were so independent, so well organized, royals are picking up trends from them. But what Sembian does differently is that while most chola temples were dedicated to other forms of Shiva, you know, the ones that were popular in the caviar. Sembian picks up a form of Shiva who's not from the Cagiri. She picks up the wild dancing God of the swamp at Chidambaram and she puts him prominently on her temple. And over the course of her life, of her life as dowager queen, I think about a 10, 15 year period, she donates, she builds 12 temples, all with this spectacular nataraja visible at the.

[Anita Anand]

Most, the wild one, the dancing one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[William Dalrymple]

We should say, say that she is one of the greatest patrons of medieval Indian art. And Vidya de Hedya says that she would leave a mark rivaling the greatest patrons of global art, the Mughals of North India and the Medicis of Tuscany. That's the kind of scale of her artistic achievement.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

That's my line, Will that.

[William Dalrymple]

I thought this was Vidya dahedja. Well, Ali, well done. It's a lovely line. I put it in my notes here.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Thank you.

[William Dalrymple]

Very, very prominently. But it's true, she's a major page and we have a host of inscriptions on her temples and on these bronzes. And the bronzes are the thing that she really is associated with. This isn't just that one sculpture that we have of her. It's during her period that the art form of the South Indian bronze, which has been around for a bit since pan over times, reaches its great peak of achievement.

[Anita Anand]

Well, to her credit, they're called the chola bronzes. That's what you just. And that's thanks to her. And some of them. I think we ought to really explain why they are such a leap up in just the aesthetic. Because you've got the wild dancing God king, but you've also got sensuality in the gods who are making love to each other, who are very human. So Shiva, again, for those who don't know about Hinduism, is worshipped very much in the form of the ling, which is, you know, the penis. It's the penis. You have the yoni and the penis, and it is fertility. And often he's depicted with the love of his life, Bharati. And there's a beautiful story. I think it might be your story of how actually sometimes in the evenings they take out. Is it the hairpin from her hair if they make love that evening?

[William Dalrymple]

That's from one of my books.

[Anita Anand]

It's your book. We're all attributing everything to everyone. But it's such a beautiful story. So tell that story because I think it's delightful.

[William Dalrymple]

So a few years ago I wrote a book called Nine Lives. And one of the people I profiled was the descendant of the very people who made the bronzes for Sembhir Mahadevi. And this family still make bronzes in the same village on the banks of the calvary. And the reason they're on this particular place on the calvary is that there's a bed bend in the river. And this means that the river, according to the hydraulics of the river, lays down a particularly fine silt at the bend which is used in casting these bronzes. So they can't move. They have to stay in this place. And the same family have been sitting here for a thousand years making these beautiful. Can I just read a little bit from my nine lines?

[Anita Anand]

Well, yes, because you wrote it, you're allowed attributing it to Anirud. So go ahead.

[William Dalrymple]

Exquisitely poised and supple, these Chola bronze deities are some of the greatest works of art ever created in India. They sit quite silent on their plinths, yet with their hands they speak gently to their devotees through the noiseless lingua franca of the mudras, or gestures of South Indian dance. For their devotees, their hands are raised in blessing and reassurance, promising boons and protection and above all, marriage, fertility and fecundity in return for the veneration which is so clearly theirs by divine right. In Western art, few sculptors, other than perhaps Donatello or Rodin have achieved the pure essence of sensuality so spectacularly evoked. By the cholub sculptors or achieved such a sense of celebration of the divine beauty of the human body. There is a startling clarity and purity about the way the near naked bodies of the gods and saints are displayed. Yet by the simplest of devices, the sculptors highlight their spirit and powers, joys and pleasures and their enjoyment of each other's beauty.

[Anita Anand]

Yeah, it's beautiful, but yours is also the story. It is you. Of course it is, because I remember now where I read it, where at night they take out the nose jewel from Parvati's nose so that when they do make love, it won't scratch.

[William Dalrymple]

Because these are envisaged as living gods.

[Anita Anand]

Breathing flesh and blood.

[William Dalrymple]

And originally the point of the bronzes was that there were stone sculptures permanently in the temples which sat there, which didn't move. But if you needed to take the God out for a walk, if you had a festival, you had to have a portable version of the God. This was the bronze. It was then put in a temple cart in one of these great carriages that you see outside the south Indian temple temples. And this is the background to this great image, the Nataraja, the king of the dance. There's one other wonderful poem, but I know I'm being indulgent. Read one of these. These are translations by a wonderful woman called Indira Peterson. This is her translation of a poem about the Nataraj from the time of Sembhin Mahadevi. The arch of his brow, the budding smile on lips red as kawaii flowers, Cool matted hair, the milk white ash on coral skin on the sweet golden foot raised in dance. If you could see these, then even human birth on this wide earth would become a thing worth having.

[Anita Anand]

It's a beautiful thing. I think we're gonna have to leave it there, but can you come back, Anu? Because what we need to do now, we've established Sembian and her establishment of Shiva as this sort of the preeminent God God in the south. And the image that she arguably creates is the preeminent image of that God. Let's find out what the cholos do next. With the power that is growing and the loyalty of the people that is growing around them till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Anand, and goodbye and see you soon from Anirudh.

[Anita Anand]

Oh, that's exciting. That's what happened. Foreign.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Hey, it's Anthony Scaramucci from the Rest is Politics. Us. If you're looking for something to play next, Catty K and I just launched a new miniseries about Ronald Reagan. We're digging into the real Reagan story, the rise, the drama, how his world has been turned upside down in the age of Trump.

[Anita Anand]

We trace his rise from Hollywood to the White House, from his role in ending the Cold War to reviving the economy. And we also confront those scandals, Iran Contra, his assassination attempt, and his failure around the AIDS epidemic.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Just search the rest Politics Us Wherever you get your podcast. Here's a clip from the series.

[William Dalrymple]

Ronald Reagan knew how to go big and go bold. He truly was the great communicator. Together we're going to do what has to be done.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

He regrounded the GOP and conservative principles.

[Anita Anand]

Free market, small government, and an unshakable faith in American exceptionalism.

[William Dalrymple]

Mr. Gorbachev teared down this wall.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Ronald Reagan shook the country.

[William Dalrymple]

People keep looking to government for the answer, and government's the problem. President Reagan was shot in the chest by a gunman outside the Washington Hotel.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

We did not trade weapons or anything else for hostages.

[Anita Anand]

Uncomfortable as it is to admit, the 40th president inadvertently prepared the ground for the 45th.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

It's not Reagan's party anymore. Donald Trump destroyed Ronald Reagan.

[William Dalrymple]

I thought he was great. His style, his attitude. But not great on trade.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Will we be the party of conservatism or will we follow the siren song of populism?

[William Dalrymple]

Only one man has the proven experience we need. Together we'll make America great again.

[Anirudh Kanisetti]

Thank you very much.

[Anita Anand]

We hope you enjoyed that clip. To hear the full series, just search the rest is Politics US.