Empire Podcast Episode 291: Ancient Gaza: The Philistines (Part 1)

Date: September 17, 2025
Hosts: William Dalrymple, Anita Anand
Guest: Jo Quinn (Professor of Ancient History, Cambridge)

Overview

In this inaugural episode of the new Gaza miniseries, hosts William Dalrymple and Anita Anand, alongside renowned historian Jo Quinn, embark on a deep historical journey tracing the origins and significance of Gaza—one of the world’s oldest, most contested urban centers. The episode explores Gaza's Bronze Age history, its role as a crossroads between Africa and Asia, and the enigmatic Philistines, setting the foundational narrative for understanding today’s conflicts through the rich lens of antiquity.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Emotional Complexity and Modern Relevance of Gaza’s History

• The hosts acknowledge the divisiveness and pain surrounding the modern discussion of Gaza, emphasizing the urgent need to understand its deep, ancient history to contextualize present events.
  • “This is the most divisive subject in the world at the moment… What is important, I think, is that we all need to do our best to understand the long background to this story and that has been notably absent.” — William Dalrymple [02:09]

2. Geography and Strategic Importance

• Gaza described as a crucial crossroads and fortress: a narrow, fertile strip linking Africa and Asia, coveted and conquered by successive empires (Egyptians, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Turks, British).
  • “Gaza is one of the oldest urban centers on planet Earth, one of the most fought over and contested spaces… it’s been a crucial strategic and economic hub.” — Anita Anand [02:50]

3. Genetic Continuity and Local Heritage

• Despite waves of conquests, genetic and archaeological studies reveal continuity among local populations from ancient to modern times.
  • “The modern inhabitants of this land today share much the same wide mix of DNA as the groups who lived here today... In a very broad sense, the DNA is consistent over the millennia.” — William Dalrymple [03:48]

4. Introducing Jo Quinn – Scholarly Support for the Series

• Jo Quinn brings academic rigor, praised for her work “How the World Made the West.” The hosts stress their commitment to nuance and the inclusion of multiple scholarly viewpoints.
  • “We do this because we have the hand holding of some of the top academics in the world on this region.” — Anita Anand [05:29]

5. Gaza in Ancient and Biblical Times

a. Early Geography and Urban Character

• Professor Quinn situates Gaza geographically and culturally in the ancient Levant—fertile, cosmopolitan, vulnerable, and prosperous.
  • “It’s this bottleneck of communications between Africa and Asia and Gaza itself is the southernmost port on that coast… The population of the cities… is always going to be a mix. It would be strange if there weren’t both local and non-local elements.” — Jo Quinn [07:01]

b. Fertility and Economic Wealth

• Debunking modern misconceptions of Gaza as a desert, they highlight its historical agricultural richness, famed wine, and significance as a trade hub.
  • “I think many of us… assume that it’s a desert. In fact, the whole point of Gaza is it’s very fertile… the best wine of the ancient world.” — William Dalrymple [08:23]

c. Archaeology and Early Written Records

• Flinders Petrie’s excavations at Tell el-Ajjul established the existence of a major Bronze Age urban center, rich in trade artifacts and cultural exchange.
  • “This is Bronze Age Gaza City. Effectively, unsurprisingly, this is an enormously important port…” — Jo Quinn [14:45]

d. Earliest Historical Figures – Thutmose III and Egyptian Influence

• The first named ruler associated with Gaza is Pharaoh Thutmose III, who used Gaza as a forward military and trading base.
  • “Thutmose’s ruling in the 15th century BCE… he conquers Gaza and then… that’s actually the first mention of the city of Gaza in Egyptian records, which records its conquest…” — Jo Quinn [16:50]

e. The Amarna Letters – International Correspondence and Political Reality

• The Amarna Letters archive reveals the complexity of local rule, Egyptian imperial strategy, and Gaza's subordinate-yet-connected role.
  • “We don’t actually seem to have any letters from Gaza itself… But Gaza is mentioned… as Azatu… subordinate settlement then to another local king, probably Ashkelon…” — Jo Quinn [19:21]

6. The Bronze Age Collapse and Introduction of the Philistines

a. Catastrophe and Uncertainty

• The forced collapse of great powers c.1200 BCE (Hittites, Babylonians, Mycenaeans) remains mysterious; interconnectedness and “domino effects” are possible causes.
  • “It’s probably a mixture of all sorts of things. Best take… Eric Klein… the extent to which these enormous empires had come to depend on each other…” — Jo Quinn [22:51]

b. The “Sea Peoples” and Philistines’ Arrival

• Egyptian records (notably Ramesses III’s mortuary temple at Medinet Habu) describe invasions—including by the Peleset (Philistines)—which Egyptians claim to decisively repel.
  • “So that’s the first time we find these Peleset or Philistines—or the word, which then evolves into Palestinians—being mentioned and they’re already being massacred…” — William Dalrymple [27:17]

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Philistine Identity:
  “No one called themselves the Canaanites...it’s a sort of generic external name for people who live on the Levantine coast…” — Jo Quinn [12:18]

• On Gaza’s Ancient Prosperity:
  “The grapes there were so very, very special.” — William Dalrymple [09:56]

• On Archaeological Consistency:
  “So you have to look for clues that people are forming some form of communal identity or affiliation. And one possibility in terms of the Philistines is that the archaeology shows that the Philistine sites tend to have quite a large proportion of pig bones.” — Jo Quinn [44:48]

Deep Dive into the Hebrew Bible and the Philistines

1. Philistines in the Hebrew Bible

• The cultural memory and reputation of the Philistines as “uncultured” derives from biblical and later European usages, not necessarily from actual historical nuance.

Key Biblical Stories:

• Abraham and Abimelech (Genesis 21:34)
  Abraham settles among the Philistines, whose king treats him well, suggesting the Philistines were already part of the land when Abraham arrived.
  “Abimelech actually comes out of the story pretty well. And…he’s already there when Abraham turns up.” — Jo Quinn [33:43]

• Samson and Delilah (Book of Judges)
  The story of Samson’s downfall at the hands of the Philistines. The tale centers in Gaza, with themes of betrayal and vengeance.
  “He pulls the entire temple down on himself and his tormentors…it’s the equivalent of a suicide bombing effectively.” — Jo Quinn [35:43]

• David and Goliath
  The Philistine champion Goliath (“not so much a bad man, just very tall and not an Israelite”) falls to David, a foundational tale of the Israelite-Philistine conflict.
  “It sets up these dichotomies between large groups, you know, us the Israelites, them the Philistines. That doesn’t necessarily reflect the way people actually living in the era…it’s local social drama, really.” — Jo Quinn [39:28]

2. Archaeological Reality vs. Biblical Narrative

• Archaeological finds confirm the existence of the discussed cities and show the Philistines’ urban sophistication, contradicting their later reputation.
  • “Gath is a very big metropolis. It’s about four times larger than contemporary Jerusalem…there’s a lot of evidence for exchange with the Judean Kingdom and with Jerusalem itself.” — Jo Quinn [47:25]

Hotly Debated Origins: Were the Philistines Locals or Invaders?

• New scholarship questions the old narrative of Philistines as purely “Sea Peoples” or Aegean invaders.

  • “I don’t think we’ve got enough evidence to say they aren’t local or…are not local…from contemporary sources, which are of course, very, very scarce. Some of them may have been from elsewhere in the Mediterranean…others might have been in the Levant all along.” — Jo Quinn [42:10]

• Political controversy: Reports cited by modern politicians, debated by Israeli and international archaeologists, illustrate the persistent entanglement of history, myth, and contemporary identity politics.

  • “Even the archaeological record…is hotly debated at the moment…” — Anita Anand [41:16]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:09] – The emotional and political charge of discussing Gaza’s history
• [05:29] – Introduction of Jo Quinn and her academic perspective
• [07:01] – Geographical and historical placement of Gaza in the ancient Levant
• [14:45] – Flinders Petrie and the Bronze Age city at Tell el-Ajjul
• [16:50] – Thutmose III: Gaza’s first appearance in Egyptian records
• [19:21] – The Amarna Letters: international diplomacy and Gaza’s status
• [22:51] – Collapse of the Bronze Age and regional turmoil
• [24:55] – Who were the Philistines? Egyptian records and biblical stories
• [33:43] – Abraham, Abimelech, and the early biblical Philistines
• [35:43] – Samson and Delilah: Biblical drama and Gaza as the setting
• [38:12] – David and Goliath: myth, archaeology, and local rivalry
• [42:10] – The Philistines’ debated origins
• [47:25] – Archaeological discoveries at Gath, sophistication of Philistine cities

Tone and Style

The conversation is scholarly yet lively, with moments of humor and warmth—especially in exchanges between William, Anita, and Jo. The hosts make complex ancient history accessible, linking archaeological discoveries and mythic narratives with the emotional and political realities of the present.

Conclusion & What’s Next

The episode ends with the promise of a deeper dive into the later centuries—when Philistine cities face destruction, and their legacy becomes even more controversial. Jo Quinn will return to help unravel these darker and more complex chapters.

Takeaway:
To truly understand the conflicts and claims of modern Gaza and Palestine, one must appreciate the city’s ancient role as both prize and pawn among empires, and recognize that its peoples—far from being mere footnotes—have their own stories interwoven with the legends and lessons of world history.