Empire Podcast, Episode 295: "Crusader Gaza: Saladin & Richard The Lionheart (Part 5)"

Date: October 1, 2025
Hosts: William Dalrymple & Anita Anand
Guest: Jonathan Phillips, Professor of Crusading History at Royal Holloway, University of London

Main Theme and Purpose

This episode explores the pivotal role of Gaza during the Crusades, focusing particularly on the Christian conquests of the 11th and 12th centuries, the establishment and defense of Crusader states, and the legendary figures of Saladin and Richard the Lionheart. Through rich discussion and expert commentary from Jonathan Phillips, the show illuminates how shifts in regional and imperial power continually reshaped Gaza, and the enduring consequences of these historical moments for the region.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the Crusading Era (01:34–05:31)

• William and Anita set the stage by reminiscing about their school experiences with Crusade history, and Jonathan describes his own personal and scholarly connection to the subject—rooted in family stories and early readings.
• Jonathan walks through the geopolitical context preceding the First Crusade:
  • Palestine, pre-Crusades: Region under the control of the Fatimid (Shia) dynasty in Egypt and the Seljuk (Sunni) Turks from Central Asia, both suffering from internal instability.
  • Notable quote: “The Crusaders are very fortunate...they turn up at a time when the Muslim Near East is very divided.” — Jonathan Phillips [06:42]

2. The Launch of the First Crusade (07:05–11:36)

• The episode examines Pope Urban II’s motivations for calling the First Crusade, the religious fervor of Europe, and the mix of spiritual, economic, and propagandistic appeals used to muster such a massive expedition.
• Notable quote:
  “If you reclaim Jerusalem for Christendom, I will give you a remission of all your sins—a sort of get out of hell free card.” — Jonathan Phillips [09:31]

3. Propaganda and Reality: The Motivations of Crusaders (10:34–11:36)

• The hosts and Jonathan discuss how stories of atrocities against Christians were exaggerated to motivate recruits.
  • Notable quote:
    “Very little [truth to these horror stories]. It is simply a way of motivating people to want to be aggressive towards others.” — Jonathan Phillips [10:58]

4. The First Crusade: Conquest and Its Aftermath (12:50–15:10)

• The First Crusaders’ grueling march, eventual conquest of Jerusalem, and the emergence of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem.
• Foundation and implications: Many Crusaders return home—only a minority remain to rule, establishing “medieval Europe’s first ‘colony’”—the Crusader states.

5. Crusader Rule in Gaza and Rise of the Templars (15:10–19:19)

• Focus on King Baldwin III and his politically influential mother, Queen Melisande.
• The Knight Templar are introduced as “warrior monks” and chosen as military landlords in Gaza and Ascalon, crucial fortresses at the edge of Crusader influence.
• Notable quote:
  “If you want to give somewhere that is a difficult frontier region that is Gaza, give a castle to a group that’s appropriate...They’re the people you’d pick.” — Jonathan Phillips [16:56]

6. Life Under Crusader Rule: Treatment of Locals (19:19–20:20)

• Jonathan discusses the relative pragmatism of Crusader rule post-conquest, balancing sporadic massacres with the administrative need to keep the population farming and paying taxes.
• Notable quote:
  “In some ways, the Crusaders and the Franks are yet another landlord in this region.” — Jonathan Phillips [19:36]

7. The Emergence of Saladin (20:20–24:01)

• Saladin’s background as a Kurd, his formative years in Damascus, and his ambitions as both a pious leader and an empire-builder, consolidating power in Egypt after deposing the Fatimid dynasty.
• William references historian Steven Runciman’s portrayal of Saladin as a “chivalrous yet formidable adversary.”

8. Clashes with the Crusaders and the Battle of Hattin (24:14–26:18)

• Saladin’s early raids, culminating in the sweeping victory at the Battle of Hattin (1187) where the Crusader army is decimated, Jerusalem is recaptured, and the psychological impact sends shockwaves through Europe.
• Notable quote:
  “He captures the King of Jerusalem and the True Cross and absolutely decimates the Crusader army.” — Jonathan Phillips [26:18]

9. Richard the Lionheart Enters the Scene (27:19–29:15)

• Following Saladin’s victory, Richard the Lionheart is spurred into action—Anita and Jonathan dig into the complex realities behind the myth.
• Runciman’s famous line is referenced:
  “A bad son, a bad husband, a bad king, but a gallant and splendid soldier.” — William Dalrymple citing Steven Runciman [28:52]
• Richard's brutality is underscored by his infamous massacre of prisoners at Acre.
  • Notable quote:
    “A straight down the line war crime that horrifies everybody at the time...That is the very harsh, pragmatic side of Richard the Lionheart.” — Jonathan Phillips [29:18]

10. Gaza and Ascalon: The Strategic Frontier (30:00–31:09)

• Richard seeks to reassert Crusader dominance in Gaza, prompting Saladin to destroy its fortifications to prevent their use, highlighting the relentless “frontier” status of Gaza.
• Saladin personally oversees the demolition, displaying both responsibility and ruthlessness.
• Notable quote:
  “Saladin’s really, really torn about this…To his credit, he goes there himself in person to oversee this.” — Jonathan Phillips [30:24]

11. Diplomacy and Misconceptions: Richard vs. Saladin (31:09–32:34)

• Jonathan debunks myths about a direct meeting between Saladin and Richard; Richard instead negotiates with Saladin’s brother, Safadin.
  • Notable quote:
    “Richard and Saladin never met. Saladin said he would not meet somebody unless they’d made a full and formal peace agreement.” — Jonathan Phillips [31:26]

12. Transition to Mamluk Rule and the Mongol Invasion (33:54–38:08)

• After brief stability under the Ayyubids, Gaza becomes a battleground again as the Mamluks (slave-soldier rulers) rise to power, notably under Sultan Baibars.
• The Mamluks propel themselves to legitimacy with their stunning victory over the Mongols at the Battle of Ain Jalut (1260).
  • Notable quote:
    “If you cut envoys in half, it is sending a particular message out...” — Jonathan Phillips [37:21]

13. Gaza Under Mamluk Rule: Prosperity and Challenge (38:38–41:37)

• Gaza becomes one of the Mamluk region’s three administrative centers. After decades of war and garrisoning, stability allows trade, construction, and population growth— the city flourishes anew.
• William cites a detailed travelogue from Friar Felix Fabbri describing late medieval Gaza as a city amidst fruit groves with abundant markets and hospitable inhabitants, but also wary of predatory Mamluk soldiers.
  • Notable quote:
    “We have this sort of snapshot of this very prosperous, very attractive town, but the locals don’t seem to like—they’re almost sort of colonial rulers.” — William Dalrymple [44:04]

14. The Jewish Community and Sufi Brotherhoods in Gaza (44:04–45:46)

• Jonathan notes that, though the Jewish community was decimated in the Crusader period, by the Mamluk era, Jewish and Sufi communities are reestablished and thrive, contributing to Gaza’s diverse economic and spiritual fabric.
  • “We hear of 60 Jewish families living in Gaza in the 14th century. They’re engaged in trade...It’s all part of the seeming prosperity of Gaza.” — Jonathan Phillips [44:32]
  • “Presence of Sufi lodges...are being established there by some important religious thinkers.” — Jonathan Phillips [45:22]

15. Conclusion: Looking Ahead (46:20–46:49)

• The episode prepares to transition to the Ottoman era in the next installment, ending with thanks to Jonathan Phillips for his sweeping expertise from the First Crusade to Mamluk Gaza.
• William previews a bonus episode with Selma Dabbagh discussing Palestinian literature.

Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “The Crusaders are very fortunate...they turn up at a time when the Muslim Near East is very divided.” — Jonathan Phillips [06:42]
• “If you reclaim Jerusalem for Christendom, I will give you a remission of all your sins—a sort of get out of hell free card.” — Jonathan Phillips [09:31]
• “Very little [truth to these horror stories]. It is simply a way of motivating people to want to be aggressive towards others.” — Jonathan Phillips [10:58]
• “If you want to give somewhere that is a difficult frontier region that is Gaza, give a castle to a group that’s appropriate...They’re the people you’d pick.” — Jonathan Phillips [16:56]
• “He captures the King of Jerusalem and the True Cross and absolutely decimates the Crusader army.” — Jonathan Phillips [26:18]
• “A straight down the line war crime that horrifies everybody at the time...That is the very harsh, pragmatic side of Richard the Lionheart.” — Jonathan Phillips [29:18]
• “Richard and Saladin never met. Saladin said he would not meet somebody unless they’d made a full and formal peace agreement.” — Jonathan Phillips [31:26]
• “If you cut envoys in half, it is sending a particular message out…” — Jonathan Phillips [37:21]
• “We have this sort of snapshot of this very prosperous, very attractive town, but the locals don’t seem to like—they’re almost sort of colonial rulers.” — William Dalrymple [44:04]
• “We hear of 60 Jewish families living in Gaza in the 14th century. They’re engaged in trade...It’s all part of the seeming prosperity of Gaza.” — Jonathan Phillips [44:32]

Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:34] — Podcast main content begins; guest introduction
• [05:31] — State of Palestine pre-Crusades
• [07:05] — Why and how the First Crusade began
• [11:36] — Propaganda & realities of life for Christian pilgrims
• [15:10] — King Baldwin III and the Knight Templar
• [20:20] — Rise, ambitions, and nature of Saladin
• [24:14] — Saladin’s first major aggression towards Gaza
• [26:18] — The Battle of Hattin
• [28:52] — Introduction of Richard the Lionheart
• [29:18] — Massacre at Acre
• [30:24] — Saladin destroys Gaza’s fortifications
• [31:26] — No direct meeting between Saladin and Richard
• [33:54] — Mamluks seize control—rise of Baibars
• [36:38] — Battle of Ain Jalut: Mamluks vs. Mongols
• [39:41] — Gaza’s recovery and new prosperity
• [41:37] — Friar Felix Fabbri’s vivid description of Gaza
• [44:04] — Mamluk rulers: prosperity and tension with locals
• [44:32] — Jewish and Sufi communities in Mamluk Gaza
• [46:20] — Conclusion and tease for next episode

Tone and Language

Throughout this episode, the conversation is both scholarly and accessible, balancing deep historical insight with wit and lively exchanges among the hosts and their guest. The tone ranges from reverent recollection to sharp critique, always grounded in curiosity about the complex layers of Gaza’s past.

For listeners and readers wishing to understand the many empires—Christian, Muslim, and Mongol—that contested Gaza, this episode provides a nuanced, engrossing journey through ambitious rulers, shifting frontiers, and the enduring resilience of a city at the crossroads of world history.