William Dalrymple (3:05)

Last episode, we were talking about cartoon characters and we're going to talk about a proper doozy in this one. So we talked about Baba the Elephant and Asterix.

Anita Arnan (3:14)

It is that thing that we have so often on Empire where two things are true simultaneously. And Baba the Elephant is enormously charming and we all love those pictures, but it is also enormously offensive to many people at the same time. And trying to keep both those visions in the same pair of binoculars is a tricky thing, isn't it?

William Dalrymple (3:34)

Well, I mean, I was really interested in your response to pictures that you had seen and accepted as a child and now you were going, oh, my God.

Anita Arnan (3:42)

It never occurred to me, growing up in 1970s sort of semi Edwardian Scotland that any of the stuff was at all dodgy. But yes, no, I totally see it now.

William Dalrymple (3:50)

Anyway, look, we continue the discussion, but we're talking about Tintin Tantin, if you're on the other side of the channel.

Anita Arnan (3:55)

And it's a cracker of a story that you've uncovered, I have to say this is Anita's research, not mine, this episode. And it is one of the most extraordinary stories we've ever dealt with. So onto it. It's great.

William Dalrymple (4:05)

Thank you so much. Well, if you thought, you know, there was controversy surrounding the other two characters that we did last week, nothing compared to this one, which is a bit of a hurricane. So for those of you who don't know, Tintin, the character is very simply drawn. You know, it's just a round head, two dots for eyes, little semicircles for eyebrows. He has this blonde quiff, which is really the Tintin style. And blue jumper, khaki trouser combo, usually. And in a nutshell, you know, he's this sort of intrepid journalist who gets pulled into all sorts of daring do. He has a dog called Snowy. They travel around the world solving mysteries, uncovering conspiracies, looking for treasure. And they've got. You might recognize some of the side characters. Captain Haddock.

Anita Arnan (4:45)

I love Captain Haddock, the sea dog.

William Dalrymple (4:48)

Yeah, there's a bit of Captain Haddock about you actually don't like.

Anita Arnan (4:53)

Certainly a fondness for rum would certainly be.

William Dalrymple (4:55)

He's a bon vivieur. As well as Haddock, you've got eccentric Professor Calculus, who's sort of the brains of the operation. So these books were written between 1929 and 1976, which is a great span of history. And the adventures also take you across a huge span of the world, you know, from the jungles of South America to the moon even. And they had an impact on you as a Child, I mean, were these one of your favorites?

Anita Arnan (5:20)

So, bizarrely, while I grew up with Asterix and he was something that was very much around from my nursery days, Tintin was something that seemed enormously sophisticated. Other boys knew about when I went to school and I remember trading sort of sweeties and North Berwick Rock, which is what I used to appear at school with from Scotland, this chewy sweet that they made on the seaside at home for the loan of Tintin and the Golden Claws or something like that. Other boys had these books at school and they were new to me and I remember thinking they were very sophisticated and exciting, that I didn't know about them when I went to school.

William Dalrymple (5:55)

A lot of people did, because let me tell you, this is one of the most successful, widely distributed comic series of all time. So let's run through some of the stats for you. First of all, it's been translated into 110 languages and dialects. Over 270 million copies have been sold worldwide.

Anita Arnan (6:14)

That's a lot of copies, isn't it?

William Dalrymple (6:15)

I mean, and those are only figures from 2019. That's the latest I could find. Good to be more. Now, estimates suggest that up to a billion people have read Tintin to date worldwide. And just tell us about how much these pictures go for, William, because it's eye watering.

Anita Arnan (6:31)

Well, if you look on auctioneer websites, Le Louttes Bleu, the artwork for Le Loutre Bleur, which was originally rejected as too expensive to reproduce in 1936 and kept in a drawer. The editor's son found it and sold it in 2021 for 2.3 million pounds. So check your bottom drawers, anyone who's got that worked in publishing houses, because you never know.

William Dalrymple (6:54)

Yeah, there'd be treasure. And two years later, another drawing, Tintin in America, which was created back in 1942, it was used for the color edition of The Belgian artist 1946 book, which had the same name, sold just shy of £2 million. So these things are worth a lot of money.

Anita Arnan (7:11)

Did you grow up on also the cartoon version? Cause I remember then later in my childhood that there was a cartoon strip that was on in the holidays in the Morning, which was again, a whole new Tintin on tv, which is very exciting.

William Dalrymple (7:23)

I didn't. So do you know why I didn't. I didn't particularly warm to Tintin because it was all about boys, all only boys. There were no strong girl characters.

Anita Arnan (7:31)

There was. There was the opera singer. Do you remember the wonderful opera singer?

William Dalrymple (7:35)

No, I don't actually, but I Do remember the sort of boys club going off and getting into troubles, you know, with the Thompson twins, who we didn't mention for particular favourites of yours. I did however watch the Tintin film that was released in 2011 and boy, what a hefty powerhouse of Hollywood they had behind that. So that was directed by Steven Spielberg. He produced it with Peter Jackson of Lord of the Rings fame. John Williams composed the music and that grossed around £250 million at the box office. That's how I guess they reached this estimate of $1 billion for this. And what is really extraordinary about this is that they were savvy. So the creators Widow, as he is known, and we'll get into the name of him because that's really interesting as well. She controls the commercial exploitation of Tintin. So that is memorabilia licensing, merchandising, museum related business.

Anita Arnan (8:30)

This is like J.K. rowling's business manager. Exactly. Who from the beginning, didn't they they snapped up the rights to every sort of little plastic Harry Potter that ever was produced very cleverly.

William Dalrymple (8:40)

I mean it's smart. But let's tell you about. Because the world knows him as Tintin is child. But actually the name of the creator was Georgia Remy. Georges Remy.

Anita Arnan (8:51)

I had no idea about that either. I mean, LJ has been so much a name since my childhood. I had no idea. He was called something different. Completely different.

William Dalrymple (8:59)

It's made up. So it is actually his initials. So Georges Remy Gr. J. Her reversed is. So he was born in Belgium.

Anita Arnan (9:08)

What would be our French cartoon names? I would be Bed W.

William Dalrymple (9:15)

Which is strangely the predominant noise I heard from my mother growing up. Anyway, look, he had a very humble beginning. Did Heger. His dad worked in a sweetie factory, his mum was a stay at home housewife. And school reports always talked about him doodling rather than paying attention. And it was probably just, you know, the only thing he could do was go to art college. Supposedly this would have been the exact right place for him. But he hated it. He didn't like to be told what to draw. And from a very young age, Aja was completely sucked in by adventure stories. He loved talking about Alexandre Dumas, Jules Verne, Robert Louis Stevenson, Arthur Conan Doyle. These were his favorites. These were his seminal works. And there was something about how they made his little world in Belgium grow bigger. And he channeled that. And something in that middle class dreamer also touched a nerve with the readers. He also said, you know, actually the Boy Scouts movement was a huge influence on him. So he said it erased the boredom of childhood and it gave him all the time to draw these comics, these little characters. And he came up quite early with this character called Totor, who looks a little bit like Tintin. He was in a Belgium edition of the official Boy Scouts magazine, which he was sort of, you know, so right from the start, it's like he's destined to birth this character.

Anita Arnan (10:37)

Was Toto an influence on Tintin?

William Dalrymple (10:39)

He looks a lot like Tintin.

Anita Arnan (10:40)

Must have been. So what I hadn't realised and what was so interesting reading about this is the actually very sort of right wing Catholic background to the early Tintin stories. And in October 1925, at the age of 18, Eger joins the Levanteam Siecle, which is a kind of right wing Catholic newspaper published by the Society Nouvelle, headed by a sort of fundo Catholic priest called Norbert's Wallace. And he moved up the scale in the office from Erin Boyd, illustrator and then reporter, photographer. So in a sense was the original tinted, but in a slightly more sort of dodgy background than we realized. And in 1929, Heger creates his first real balloon comic with Les Adventures de Tintin, the Adventures of Tintin, which ran in Le Petit Vingtieme, a young person supplement to the paper. And this is commissioned by Father Norbert, who is this, as I said, this sort of ultra conservative Catholic. And it was like those sort of early CIA propaganda books that were distributed across the Soviet Union. It was actually Tintin au paix de Soviet. So Tintin in the land of the Soviets and he's uncovering sort of Marxist propaganda. And this is all meant to be sort of consumed by nice Belgian kids to see the errors of communism right from the start.

William Dalrymple (12:06)

You get the impression that, you know, his editorial is controlled by this man called Norbert Wallets. And Norbert really does want to run down things he doesn't like from children's earliest, most pliable minds. So, you know, he's the one who wants to have this anti Soviet propaganda. And this is all sort of, you know, staged elections, factories run only when foreign visitors are present, violence against dissenters. All of this is kind of woven into the comics strip as well.

Anita Arnan (12:34)

Just to make clear, this is not a sort of distant cousin of our familiar Tintin or Tintin. This is absolutely the Tintin we know and love with a little quiff of hair. He's already there with his doggie Snowy, working against baddies in caps. But they are Soviet baddies and it is an anti communist propaganda.

William Dalrymple (12:54)

So let me tell you the story of this first foray of Tintin into the world. So Tintin and Snowy are being chased, they are arrested, they escape multiple times. The Soviet secret police or the ogp, they are stupid in this. They're not very clever, they're not very good. It stands for, by the way, ogpu, the Joint State Political Directorate, if you really want to know. So they were the really terrifying secret Soviet intelligence agency from about 1923 to 1934, a real thing. So, you know, precursor to the dreaded nkvd. And the magazine goes down so well with Norbert, Father Norbert, that he decides actually, you know what, this is going to be a real thing. He sees what this little kid in his office is produced and he says, right, okay, you know what? Marketing, that's what we're going to do. So he hires an actor and a dog that looks like Snowy to wander around Brussels dressed like Tintin and his dog to publicize this newly born comic. And it works a treat. Tintin pretty much becomes an overnight sensation. If Erger minded being used by his editor, you know, for political propaganda, he didn't show it. I mean, you know, he's young, I suppose he just feels lucky to be there.

Anita Arnan (14:00)

How old is at this point?

William Dalrymple (14:02)

18, when he starts working for the paper. So it's like a couple of years later. So really, of course, he is money in his pocket. They're sending out adverts for him, you know, it's great. It's like having, if you've got a book published, you know, seeing your poster on the underground is thrilling. So the next commission is another piece of propaganda for this second installment. Had wanted to send Tintin to the United States, but Father Norbert said, no, no, no. I think what we do is why don't we send Tintin and Snowy the to Belgian colony of Congo instead, Which.

Anita Arnan (14:36)

As we know from our Conrad episode last week with the wonderful Maya Jasanov, was in many ways the worst European colony of all. An absolute horror story. And here is Tintin doing active propaganda for the Belgian Congo, albeit a little bit later than the kind of real horror times of the early 1900s and 1920s. So tell us about Tanta or Congo, Anita.

William Dalrymple (15:00)

Well, I mean, look, the takeaway message from it is colonials, great missionaries, fabulous. And the local black population, savages. You know, so this was like a great civilizing mission. That's what Father Norbert had wanted to convey. And the images, you just need to take a look at the images from the time. I mean, they weren't out of place at the time, but now if we look at them. So you've got, you know, sort of one. You've got a missionary in a boat with Snowy and Tintin with a cross.

Anita Arnan (15:29)

Around his neck, a pith helmet and.

William Dalrymple (15:31)

A Father Christmas beard. Basically the biggest stereotype of missionary you can imagine. But rowing the boat are six black sort of servants, I guess, with enormous lips.

Anita Arnan (15:43)

They're the ultimate stereotype.

William Dalrymple (15:45)

Sickening. Slightly sickening, actually. Absolutely. And just, you know, to recap, if you haven't heard, brilliant, Maya Jasanov, go back and listen. But Belgium at the time was ruling over the Congo Free State, later to become the Belgian Congo. And these attitudes towards black people were widely accepted, not just in Belgian society, but in wider Europe. So whereas, you know, if you were a kid, you open the book, you'll see, like, an exciting children's adventure, but this stuff sort of seeps in underneath. You know, it's paternalistic. The white people are the ones who are, you know, making all the decisions, having all the agency, and the Congolese characters are nothing. And you just think about what was actually going on at the time in Belgian Congo, because you have King Leopold ii, who has claimed the Congo at the Berlin Conference from 1884 to 1885. He says, look, this is going to be a humanitarian, philanthropic project. We're going to civilize Africans, even saying, you know, we're going to suppress the slave trade, which is an African thing. But in reality, what this was as a private economic enterprise designed to extract, extract, extract, especially ivory. And then later in the 1890s, it would turn to rubber, which was in high demand. And, you know, this was the actual politics and experiences of those there.

Anita Arnan (17:00)

And just to. Again, we said a little of this last week with the Conrad episode. What was going on was that if individual villages did not produce their quota of rubber and ivory, there was extreme violence, hostage taking, or what we would probably call terrorism. Entire communities were destroyed and burnt down. And the most visible symbol of this was the cutting off of hands, which is extraordinary. I'm looking now at photographs of some guys who've had their left hand cut off with the machete.

William Dalrymple (17:36)

These are the children of the workers. So if quotas weren't meant often, you know, children were netted up and their limbs were cut off. One of the images that you're looking at is it a child of about 10 years old who's missing a hand.

Anita Arnan (17:48)

And this is not done by sort of, you know, mercenaries without the knowledge of the colonial officials. Because in one of the photographs, we have a colonial official in a white Pith helmet, like the missionary in the cartoon. And he is sitting there in a beautifully starched white imperial suit and he's pointing at the hand of the person who has had his hand cut off at the stump. And this would be produced as an advert or a warning or is it proud colonial officials showing folks back home what he's been doing in his spare time. It's a grotesque picture. And there's not just one or two of them. You know, there are lines of these pictures of kids of 10.

William Dalrymple (18:25)

There are so many of these pictures of atrocity. And if you look at the numbers, they're not going to make you feel any better than the images which will rock you to your root. Because it's suggested the Congo's population fell by 10 million or more, which is roughly half the population during Leopold's rule, due to not just these kind of maimings, killings, famine, forced labor, disease, you know, so these are absolutely appalling times and news is getting out. And actually we portrayed the missionary in the bdo. Er, indeed. But some missionaries were appalled by this. So you have travelers and reformers who are coming, their missionaries are sending their statements back saying, these are the kids who are turning up to our missions. This is what's happening. Edie Morell, who's a French born British journalist, he's an author, he's a pacifist, he's there, he's sending scathing remarks back. Sir Roger Casement, you remember we talked.

Anita Arnan (19:17)

About him, this extraordinary character. Yeah, he appeared in our Irish series.

William Dalrymple (19:22)

Yeah, I mean, we talked about Roger Casement in the Ireland episodes, you know, diplomat, Irish nationalist who eventually gets executed by the United Kingdom for treason during World War I and thrown into an unmarked grave at the back of Pentonville Prison. They are putting on the pressure on Belgian saying, you know what? You cannot do this. You are the king and it is all being done in your name. And it's thanks to pressure from people like Casement that King Leopold then ends up ceding control to the Belgian State in 1908. But you know what? Things don't get better, do they?

Anita Arnan (19:52)

So this cartoon is being drawn in 1934 when things are a little better than they were during the limb cutting bonanza of what was about the 1910s. It's still absolutely the worst of all European colonies and is always recognized as such. And the Belgian state control becomes more regulated, but it's still unbelievably harsh condition in the mines, especially copper and diamonds and uranium, all these sort of things claiming hundreds of lives. And there's racial segregation in the cities, strict control over movement and labor. And this is the model colony which Erger, in one of his earliest incarnations, is drawing propaganda for effect.

William Dalrymple (20:32)

Even so his comic book carries on being very popular. He has huge success. Congo gets independence from the Belgians in 1960. And so all of this is then out and discussed and in the public domain. He does reflect about it after sort of this huge slurry of images and reportage becomes public after the Belgians finally leave. And in 1975, Ayersley does a series of. Of interviews with a journalist called Numa Sadul, which, you know, look up because they're really fascinating. He's asked about, you know, those early successes, including Tintin in the Congo, which put him on the map, you know, years, decades before. And he says, look, this is a direct quote. I was fed on the prejudices of the bourgeois society that surrounded me. It was 1930, and I drew them in the purely paternalistic spirit that was that of the time in Belgium. And he acknowledged in those interviews that the work, you know, reflected the prejudices of the time rather than any understanding he had of Africa. And he asked for forgiveness. He said, look, this is a youthful sin. I'm sorry about the colonial stereotypes. And he also did talk in those interviews about being used in anti Soviet propaganda. But these are the ones that talked about. There are others that maybe I would like to ask him about. There are some others. William, tell us about Tim Tin in America, which he draws in 1932.

Anita Arnan (21:56)

Well, yeah, it goes on. And again, you know, it's very difficult to react to this because. Do you just say this is the prejudices of the time? But what he's drawing in Tinted America, of course, is red Indians committing savageries. And by red Indians, inverted commas, we mean guys in wigwams with feather headdresses doing inverted commas, native dances and. Yeah, it's all very primitive and savage. There's the only word for it.

William Dalrymple (22:24)

This is 1932, though. Let's cut him a break with that.

Anita Arnan (22:27)

This is the same period as those black and white movies where hundreds of Indians are being shot dead by sort of early John Wayne characters and that sort of thing.

William Dalrymple (22:33)

So give him that. But then something changes Even before the 1960s and 1970s, when you have the civil rights movement and you have all this evidence coming out from historians about what actually happens in these places. But something happens that makes his next work, the Blue Lotus, the one that William was talking about, you know, that image that was found in the editor's son's drawer that sold for 2.3 million. Something happens that changes his mind and it is so human and rather touching. Join us after the break and we'll tell you about it.

Anita Arnan (23:07)

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William Dalrymple (25:22)

Welcome back. So in 1936, what happens to the Blue Lotus? Give you a little synopsis. The story begins with Tintin in India, where he receives a mysterious invitation to China from a stranger connected to a secret opium smuggling ring. And Tintin arrives in Shanghai. He finds himself caught up in the middle of political tensions between China and Japan. These things were happening. Japan is preparing to invade China. Propaganda is being used to justify their action in Europe. But Tintin learns that the drug smuggling is linked to to a Shanghai opium den called the Blue Lotus and a dangerous poison.

Anita Arnan (26:00)

This poison is called. Is it Rajaja juice? And it's being used to drive people insane. Now, what happens? And this is the lovely sort of human happen chance. Anita referred to that while investigating, Tintin is befriended by a young Chinese boy named Chang Chong Chen. And their friendship becomes this very sort of touching aspect of the series, especially when Tintin protects Chang from racism and bullying. And together they uncover the truth. A sinister conspiracy involving corrupt officials, Japanese spies, and an international drug cartel. And in the end, Tintin manages to expose the criminals, dismantle the opium operation, help the Chinese resist Chinese manipulation. And the story closes with Tintin and Chang parting as close friends, promising to see each other again. So the question is, how come that we get this very different sort of racial spin? Anita, tell us.

William Dalrymple (26:51)

Oh, it's so exciting. Okay, so it is because of one a man called Zhang Chongren, who is a young Chinese man who will change Erger's brain. So, born in 1907, this young man, Zhang Jianren, is raised in a Jesuit orphanage in Old Shanghai. And he will become one of the greatest sculptors of his age. I mean, they refer to him even now as the Rodin of the East. In fact, just to give you a sense of how important he is to the art world, in the mid-1980s, French cultural authorities made a cast of his hand that is an honor they only bestowed on Rodin himself and Pablo Picasso. So cut back to when he's actually sort of nothing, just a young man. It's the 1930s. News has started leaking out that who's now like a superstar cartoonist is going to set his next work in China. And at that same time, it just so happens that Jean Joren has traveled to Brussels and is studying as an art student. And he is in the care of a Jesuit priest called Father Leon Gosset, who's the chaplain for Chinese students at the University of Louvain, where Zhang has come to further his studies.

Anita Arnan (28:01)

I should say quickly that my priest brother also studied at the University of Louvain in his priestly formation, they called it.

William Dalrymple (28:09)

There's always a Dalrymple somewhere. You just have to scratch the surface. Gausset, who is looking after these Chinese students, is a little bit worried because Herger is like this phenomenon, and he's worried about the impact of the kind of stories and the kind of Pictures that produces what will they do to the people that he loves his Chinese students. So, you know, he says, look, I'm going to write to him. I'm going to tell him, because I'm worried that might treat the Chinese the same way he treated the natives of.

Anita Arnan (28:38)

The Congo, because they were very popular with his students, wasn't he? He saw them reading comics and wanted him to be properly.

William Dalrymple (28:45)

He just didn't want his Chinese students to be heard. So he writes to and to credit, he writes back and he says, you know what, Father Gauset? If you're really upset about it, the best thing you can do, and this is a quote, is find me a Chinese advisor. So that's what Gausset does. He introduces Heger to several Chinese students in Louvain and finally to Zhang himself. And the date is May 1934. And at this time, Jean, who's only a year younger than he's 26 at this time, and he's doing very well in art. And of course, he loved art. Art was his slipstream into drawing cartoons. And he visits visits at his home every Sunday throughout the year of 1934. And he starts to talk to him about Eastern art. He teaches calligraphy. He teaches in the basics of Taoist philosophy. They talk about Chinese current affairs and the culture. And Zhang can talk to him because he's fluent in French. You know, he's been raised in this sort of Jesuit tradition, so he's bilingual. And so you can see this impact on work because if you look at the cartoon strip, the Blue Lotus, there are Chinese phrases in the background of the comic strip, little hidden messages or little strokes to his friend's face, you know, written out by Zhang. Zhang actually does the calligraphy for him. There are phrases from the old book of Tang which only Zhang could have told him. You know, they praise the virtues and determinations of an ancient doctor, Sun Shimao. And they furnish the headquarters of the Sons of the Dragon, a secret society dedicated to fighting the opium trade. The Chinese heroes are fighting the opium trade. And there are posters in the background of this comic strip calling for boycotts of Japanese goods. So, you know, if you can read it, there's propaganda within propaganda.

Anita Arnan (30:31)

It says, down with imperialism. So Eger's rather turned from his days supporting pith helmeted Belgian missionaries in the Congo.

William Dalrymple (30:40)

So this starts off as a relationship through Father Gausset where, you know, okay, you want to. You want somebody to advise you, I'll give you Zhang. That's not a problem. But it turns into this really tight friendship. And there is a biographer of who says loved his friend so much, he says, look, let me co credit you for the creation of this book. I want to put your name on the book. And Zhang says, no, I really hardly did anything. And it's a very humble guy. And so he says, no, no, it's okay, I won't do it. So instead he says, look, Zhang, just do something because when I open this book, I want to see you in it. So you sneak your Chinese name into some of the shop stop signs that Tintin passes by and that's, you know, it's a lovely little nod to each other. And I think it's the, the political aspect of this with the Chinese not being depicted in the same old lazy old way that LJ has done with other, you know, native populations is different.

Anita Arnan (31:37)

And if I'm right in saying he's not only defending the Chinese from the Japanese aggressors, but also from Western businessmen. So there's a complete turnaround here from what we, we'd been seeing in the end.

William Dalrymple (31:46)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for the first time, an anti imperialist message. You know, the American businessman who's in it. You're absolutely right. It's a man called Gibbons beats a Chinese waiter of spilling a drink and calls him yellow Scum, saying that he should learn manners from superior Western civilization. But AOJ makes him look ridiculous and him look like the bully.

Anita Arnan (32:05)

He's the villain.

William Dalrymple (32:06)

But that is not to say there is not a really uncomfortable racist stream running through these Tintin books. But it's not directed at the Chinese because he's got a Chinese brand instead. William. It's directed at the Japanese. Somebody's gonna get it in the neck and it's the Japanese. So what happens to them?

Anita Arnan (32:22)

It's easy to spot the Japanese character in the book because they have extra long teeth and really a sort of childish inability to do anything at all effectively. So it's not like we're in sort of racial heaven here.

William Dalrymple (32:34)

Well, he's got a Chinese friend. I mean, some of his best friends are a Chinese man. But the Japanese take such issue with the newspaper. They issue a formal notice, notice of complaint. It goes right to the ambassadorial level. You know, it's like huge diplomatic incident. The ambassador to Belgium demands the book is banned completely. But according to Asulin is his name biographer Zhang just reassures. Look, I know, you know, you've got a headache from all of this diplomatic stuff, but he says if the Japanese are angry, it's because we are telling the truth. And they weather it out. The comic strips are a massive of success. Father Gose's students love them, everybody else loves them. He gets an invitation from the Chinese first lady in 1939 to come to China, which he's really excited to do because he can go traveling and, you know, his best friend can show him around China. But then the outbreak of World War II stops all of that.

Anita Arnan (33:28)

Yeah, 1939 is not a great moment to get an invitation anywhere, least of all to China on eve of the Japanese invasion.

William Dalrymple (33:36)

If you want to look at, there are some lovely things online about, you know, how transforms his friend into the hero of the comic book, you know, character called Chang in the book. And you've got a photo of his friend and how he maps it and then creates this face which looks like his best mate and will appear in the comics. It really is like a love song to a best friend.

Anita Arnan (33:57)

And there's another photograph, isn't there, from the 1980s of Zhang Chongren standing next to a poster of his sort of alter ego in the cartoon, pointing at him in a sort of pride. And this lovely old guy with glasses, clearly in his, what, his 70s in the picture, looking at this youthful version of himself in the cartoon.

William Dalrymple (34:16)

So you've got stereotypes of Japanese, you've got, you know, less of a white saviour thing going on here. You've got more sort of Chinese being, you know, human and heroic here. Zhang, I should say, goes on to establish a really successful art school in Shanghai, but because of the war, they are separated. He gets called back to China. He doesn't see his friend for the next 40 years. The wonderful thing about how Elgin feels about this, I mean, he's said to be plunged into depression when his friend Zhang leaves. And in the comic book, it is the only panel that he paints where Tin Tin cries when his friend goes away. Isn't that sweet? Isn't it sweet?

Anita Arnan (34:57)

Very sweet.

William Dalrymple (34:57)

So racism is all over. It's dealt with, isn't it, William? It's all gone. It's all gone from Tintin, if only.

Anita Arnan (35:03)

Because actually we're still very much in the 1940s. Sadly, things are not as they should be. So the next story, The Shooting Star, 1942, has to be withdrawn and redrawn after the war because of a grotesque anti Semitic caricature of a villainous banker named Blumenstein in the original French. This actually is only the tip of the iceberg of what is doing.

William Dalrymple (35:30)

On 3rd September 1944, Brussels is liberated from Nazi occupation and Eger loses his publication. Le Soie is what he's cartooning for at this point. And he's forced to drop his pen, drop his paints and stop. And that is because Lissois, who he's been now doing comic strips for, has been under Nazi control during the German occupation of Belgium in World War II. And it used to publish pro German propaganda written content, but also, you know, the Tintin story, you know, the Blumenstein greedy Jewish, Jewish banker is another example of that.

Anita Arnan (36:01)

So Blumenstein, if you look at the picture of him, is like the classic European anti Semitic caricature of the Jewish banker that you see in 19th century antisemitic cartoons going right through the 20th century. This sort of plump bald guy with an enormous nose. And it's fantastically offensive and doing bad.

William Dalrymple (36:20)

Things, you know, for greedy reasons. So all of these things have been contained in Lissoire and the Belgians who have been liberated are now turning on these Nazi collaborators and the entire editorial board, including find themselves arrested for collaboration. LG is freed after only one night. And he's a lucky one because others go down for a lot, lot longer because, you know, they argue, you know, representatives argue. Look, he was naive, he was young, he was just drawing comics, he was just thinking of kids, you know, he wasn't, he wasn't doing this for political reasons. And he doesn't end up convicted, but the stink sticks to him. So, you know, people start to find Erger unfashionable. That's the best case scenario. But at worst they go for him.

Anita Arnan (37:06)

There's no question at all that this is, I mean, looking at these, these cartoons from this period, that those are straightforward Nazi cartoons, aren't they? I mean, to us it's very black and white that this is the cartoon embodiment of everything Hitler writes about Jewish bankers.

William Dalrymple (37:19)

And they do appear in Nazi sympathetic publications. So, you know, he's writing in Le Soie. The Belgians turn on that newspaper and they start calling it Le Soir Volay, which is the Stolen Soir, you know, that it was stolen by the Nazis. It was even translated in a Dutch Nazi controlled newspaper. So, you know, the Nazis loved it. One of the founders of that Dutch magazine that printed and reproduced Tintin was the founder of the Belgian Nazi party back in 1931 and illustrated his book, a man called Leon Derell. It was a book for schools, you know, so all this stuff going on in America about librarians being targeted, if you can get the mind of the young and control it then you have the future in your hands. And that's what the Nazis believed. That's why they turned so much attention to comic strips and children's books and controlling what they were reading. But after the war, people do not want to know this anymore.

Anita Arnan (38:15)

And is there a sense that there's a continuity, Anita, between the early sort of right wing Catholic world that he is in, in the beginning of his career and the people who are controlling and owning Lesoir during the war?

William Dalrymple (38:28)

Father Norbert's not unique. Again, you will have many stories of collaboration with the cloth and the jackboot, but likewise you will have also those who speak out. And you know, a number of priests are rounded up by the Nazis because they're troublemakers, because they are speaking out against it. But, but to collaborate if you're, you know, the winning side, it happens a lot. Father Norbert, who started Erger's career, believes that even before the Nazis are a twinkle in the eye, pounding out this stuff, imperialism good, black, brown, inferior, Jews inferior. You know, he has those attitudes already before the Nazis.

Anita Arnan (39:05)

And there's another thing that Eger does during the war that also has anti Semitic stereotypes, isn't there 1941, a book called Fable?

William Dalrymple (39:12)

Yeah, it's a children's book again. I mean, again, it's another one of these really horrifying things. You think, oh my God, leave the kids alone. But it's got this racist story about stingy Jewish people. And in Alger's defense, which he does mount, he says, look, I left these characters off the COVID I didn't want these characters on the book of fables. But it was the publisher who kept them on. I was already feeling uncomfortable about this, but they did it anyway. So look, he carries on and you look at again, the body of work around this time you've got Land of Black Gold, which takes, takes him into the land of the Arabs. And you know, the Arabs are lazy and violent and bumbling. If you've got the Latin American world where you've got the broken ear Tintin and the Picaros, where you know they are corrupt or they're incompetent, you've got black dock workers and the crab with the golden claws. I mean, that's the one you were talking about earlier, wasn't it? The one that you said.

Anita Arnan (40:02)

That's the one that, the one that was the TV on, on TV in the 1970s.

William Dalrymple (40:06)

Do you remember if they kept sort of the, the lips, lips and bulging eyes of the original? Do they. Do you remember if they modified it for TV.

Anita Arnan (40:13)

I'm not sure that in 1970s Britain anyone would have seen anything wrong with it, even at that.

William Dalrymple (40:18)

Black and White Minstrels. And things went on till that was still on tv.

Anita Arnan (40:21)

Yeah.

William Dalrymple (40:21)

So the backlash, you know, so you've got the discomfort in Belgium, but largely because of collaboration with the Nazis. Erzer goes a bit quiet, but then he's rehabilitated. He explains himself. He says, you know, I didn't do this. The editors made me do this. I was just following orders. But, you know, he's kind of forgiven. It is forgotten. But then it gets ahead of steam again in the 1960s when you've got the civil rights movement. And just as with Asterix and with Barber, as we talked about, people start looking, particularly from America, at black depiction in popular culture. And there's a famous interview with Muhammad Ali, the boxer. He talks about the way in which this sort of pounding imagery, what effect it has on a man. And he's sort of laughing. I think he's talking to Parkinson at the time. I remember this interview really well. But he says, you know, when I was growing up, there was a white Jesus, there was a white Tarzan. Comic books said, you know, white was good, black was bad or stupid. And it's really moving. He's just explaining what life was like. But this is not yet the land of litigation that you have to wait until 2007 when people start actually taking Erger to task, the books to task in the Corner.

Anita Arnan (41:33)

So in 2007, the CRE, the Commission for Racial Equality, calls for Tintin in the Congo to be withdrawn from bookstores. This is a 1931 edition. This is the one which has the missionaries in pith helmets and the sort of caricatured black people basically depicted as savages. That gets moved out of the children's sections of bookstores. But it's looking up now. It's still available, and even the front cover is pretty dodgy.

William Dalrymple (42:01)

So, I mean, I'm looking at the statements from Waterstones and other booksellers at the time. The Waterstone spokesman says at the time, in 2007, we have reviewed the title situation. We are moving it away from the other Tintin titles into the graphic novel section. And the CRE comes back saying, how and why do they name another bookshop? Warders think it's okay to peddle such racist material. The only place it might be acceptable for this to be displayed would be in a museum with a big sign saying, old Fashioned Racist Claptrap.

Anita Arnan (42:29)

And although that sounds extreme, I Have to say, looking at some of the cartoons, it's hard to disagree. And even looking at the front cover, it's hard to disagree.

William Dalrymple (42:35)

So the response, Ergomont, who are the book's publishers, say, look, we've actually put a warning on this book now. And we've said in this book it features bourgeois paternalistic stereotypes of the period, an interpretation some readers may find offensive. And you have the foundation that owns a lot of the rights about this saying, look, you know what, it should be read in the context of the period when it was published. Do not judge it by how you look at the world now. And it wasn't the only lawsuit. I mean, in Sweden there were campaigns to get it removed from libraries. There was a Congolese student, a man called Mr. Mondudu, who even filed lawsuits in Belgium and France seeking to have the book banned or at least published with this warning label that subsequently was attached in 2007. So you do see the book in circulation, but you will see now warning now, what do we think about this? Because we had a chat about this after the Asterix and the Baba episode, Tintin look back and discuss like with.

Anita Arnan (43:37)

Baba and like with Asterix, I think, you know, it's very easy to sound like the Daily Mail would be on our backs saying we're sounding like sort of commissars banning books and being woke. But it is very difficult to look at the stuff without being hugely offended. And these are really vicious stereotypes which are being reinforced. So, yes, it's of its time, but yes, it's also extremely offensive.

William Dalrymple (44:00)

I'm sort of looking back, why didn't I warn to Tintin, apart from the fact that there were no heroic girls in it? I think it was just such a clear explanation that if you didn't have white skin, you were thick or devious or a wrong.

Anita Arnan (44:13)

You picked that up at the time.

William Dalrymple (44:15)

I think in my mind I must have done, because why I loved reading. I read everything. Graphic novels. I loved comic books and graphic novels. And why I think I didn't feel that with Asterix is because everybody was a bumbling buffoon and everybody was sort of. They were on an equal opportunities of sort of lunacy and mad Capri. But with Tintin it felt different to me at least now having said that, you know, my kids have read Tintin and have loved it. They thought it's really, you know, exciting and the adventure and all they're there for. They are just there for the adventures and Captain Haddock largely, I don't know if they don't notice or they're not hurt by. Maybe not, but I didn't.

Anita Arnan (44:54)

And you can say that the. I suppose in its defence, that the buffoonery is, you know, is colourblind, that Captain Haddock, as this drunken sailor is obviously caricature of a white guy. But then there's the fantastic Bianca Castafiore, the opera singer who I loved, who's always turning up and singing operas and breaking windows and shattering glass wherever she goes and driving everybody out. And there's these terrible sort of calamities wherever she sings. I mean, there's no question, looking at the. Particularly the Congo, it's not something I would want to give to my kids.

William Dalrymple (45:23)

Now, what if he would have met somebody from the Congo? I mean, there doesn't that what if moment, the sliding door moments. You know, he happens to meet a Chinese artist who touches his heart and they are then safe. Doesn't it sort of open the door to if we just knew more about each other and knew each other more and spoke to each other more, this would happen less even today. It's a standard to live by.

Anita Arnan (45:45)

No, I think that's quite a good takeaway from that.

William Dalrymple (45:47)

Anyway, look, that's it for now. We're going to take a small break from writers and we're going to talk about the Ashes starting. Do you speak cricket? Are you fluent in cricket, William?

Anita Arnan (45:56)

I don't speak cricket. Not only do I not speak cricket, I'm deeply prejudiced against all sports. All my childhood was watching cricket on the one television in the house. And I remember when I was wanting to watch Tintin cartoons, the crab with the golden claws. It would still be the Ashes.

William Dalrymple (46:13)

You're going to bloody love this miniseries, then. Can I tell you, it's really exciting? The history of cricket is so intertwined with imperial history. So we're going to be talking about, of course, Australia, because it is the Ashes. And we are also going to talk about the Asian subcontinent, because can you get much bigger than a cricketer in India and Pakistan? I mean, God, they are rock stars, they are gods. I remember coming to one of the Jaipur literary festivals and I think you had Rahul Dravid, and I was almost trampled to death because people were trying to get to his session.

Anita Arnan (46:44)

He's become a friend since then. Yeah. And he listens to Empire. He makes the Indian cricket team listen to Empire too.

William Dalrymple (46:50)

So we're going to talk about that. We're also going to talk about these extraordinary characters who changed history. People like Basil d' Oliveira if you know, you know. If you don't, you should, because these are people who upend exactly. Like, you know, this sort of little friendship between these two people upended some of the prejudice in these are people who really did change the course of sporting history. So do join us for that. Till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnhem.

Anita Arnan (47:18)

And goodbye from me, William the Rumpel.

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