Empire Podcast Episode 313: "Rudyard Kipling: Escaping India & Writing The Jungle Book (Part 2)"

Hosts: William Dalrymple (WD), guest Andrew Lycett (AL)
Date: December 4, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, William Dalrymple (without co-host Anita Anand, who is unwell) is joined by renowned Kipling biographer Andrew Lycett. Together, they chronicle the latter half of Rudyard Kipling’s time in India, his legendary short stories, his complicated views on empire, and his move to America—where, as an expatriate, Kipling would write his most enduring works: The Jungle Book and Kim. The episode navigates not only Kipling's literary genius and contradictions but also the deeply ambivalent legacy of British imperialism he embodied.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Kipling’s Strange and Haunting Short Stories

• "The Strange Ride of Morrowbie Jukes" (02:00–05:12)
  • WD recounts the plot: "An unimaginative engineer...ends up falling into a pit, where, says Kipling...the undead of India, those who recover on funeral pyres...are living off crows and living this half life."
  • AL agrees: "It is a very weird story...It shows Kipling's sense of alienation from the society that he finds himself in...that India is a fascinating place, but it was also a harrowing place and it's full of pitfalls."
  • Both see parallels to H.G. Wells’ early science fiction and reflect on Kipling's ambivalence toward both British and Indian society.

Literary Success and the Anglo-Indian World

• "Departmental Ditties" and the Making of a Celebrity (05:12–06:06)

  • WD: "He becomes sort of standard railway reading for the Anglo Indian community. He's their own sort of Chekhov or their Tolstoy, recording their lives."
  • By age 18, Kipling is a literary star in India.

• "The Man Who Would Be King" (06:06–08:34)

  • Adventure tale of opportunists trying to rule in Afghanistan, full of themes of kingship and Freemasonry.
  • Memorable quote from WD:

    "Do you know what they did to Peechey between the two pine trees? They crucified him, sir, as Peachy's hands will show..." (07:11)

  • Kipling drew on both real events and archetypes of British frontier life.

Portraying Indian Social Life: Courtesans, Soldiers, and Administrators

• "On the City Wall" and the Tawaif World (08:34–09:20)

  • Kipling’s relationship with Lahore’s nightlife and the courtesans, or tawaifs, is discussed sympathetically.
  • WD clarifies: "This is very much a British understanding of the Tawaifs, who are not prostitutes as such. More courtesans..."
  • AL: "He wrote very sympathetically about them...one of the memorable things...is his portrayal of this bejeweled, very gracious...prostitute called Laloon."

• Soldiers and Barracks Life (09:58–10:41)

  • Kipling’s affection for common soldiers: "He liked to have his groups of soldiers...That was very important in his world picture because he was beginning to develop this sense of how the Raj operated." (AL)

• Shift Toward Reactionary Views (10:41–14:14)

  • WD: "He becomes notably reactionary...He admires the Irish squaddies, the engineers building bridges...people that were very low on the Raj hierarchy, but he sort of turns them into heroes."
  • AL notes Kipling's growing conservatism: "It was a conservative view of the Raj that he was in favour of the administration as it was. He was against any kind of fiddling with it."

Clashes and Controversy

• Conflict with Captain Hersey and Anti-Congress Sentiment (12:51–14:16)
  • Kipling disparages a prominent Anglo-Indian, nearly gets horsewhipped; indicative of his deepening opposition to Indian self-rule and increasing racial prejudice.
  • WD: "Even by the standards of the time...he actually was [reactionary], wasn't he?"

Leaving India: Travels and Disillusionment

• The Epic Journey Home (17:26–19:44)

  • Kipling takes a circuitous route back to England via Hong Kong, Burma, Japan, and America, recording impressions with an imperialist’s gaze.
  • His "disdain for San Francisco's defenses" and disappointment at Chicago’s meat markets exemplify both his snobbery and his restlessness.

• Failure to Adjust to London Literary Life (19:57–21:29)

  • WD: "He is appalled by the place...What doesn't he like about London? It's too dirty, too crowded. What's wrong with it?"
  • AL: "There's something else about the cultural ambiance of the place that he doesn't like...He doesn't like the artistic world that he discovers in England. He begins to yearn for Indian certainties, the sort of the order of Indian society."

Marriage and Vermont: An Expatriate’s Retreat

• Walcott and Carrie Balestier: Transatlantic Ties (20:43–22:48)

  • Kipling befriends American publisher Walcott Balestier; upon Walcott's sudden death, Kipling quickly marries his sister Carrie.
  • Notable moment:

    "Henry James makes a speech at the wedding which doesn't sound like...the best man's speech from hell. He says it's a union of which I don't forecast the future." (22:58)

  • Carrie becomes Kipling’s "Committee of Ways and Means," offering structure and support.

• Settling in Vermont; A Surge of Productivity (23:53–25:29)

  • Kipling builds the Naulaka, a peculiar American house, and finds peace and energy to write.
  • AL: "He begins to understand America...He finds that it's not all happy in America, that Americans are a bit too democratic for him."
  • WD: "But bizarrely, it's in America that he writes his two greatest Indian books..."

The Jungle Book and Kim: Masterpieces Born in Exile

• Writing The Jungle Book (Dedicated to his daughter, Josephine) (25:29–25:43)

  • WD: "Is this, at the time, as big a success?...At the time, is it a big success?"
  • AL: "I don't think it is...but it is indicative of Kipling going through a period of incorporating his Indian experience."

• Kim: Kipling’s Literary Pinnacle (25:43–29:55)

  • WD calls Kim "probably my favourite Kipling book...It's almost as if, despite his reactionary political views, his innate love of the color of India, which he grew up with, is expressed in this extraordinary masterpiece."

  • Memorable Reading (WD, 27:04):

    "He sat, in defiance of municipal orders astride the gun Zam Zama on her brick platform opposite the old Ajebgar, the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore Museum. Who holds the Zamzama, the fire breathing dragon holds the Punjab..."

  • AL agrees: "It is Kipling's masterpiece, enduring masterpiece of literature...He tried to incorporate his love of India in all its facets. And it starts with an amazing, evocative picture of Lahore."

  • WD: "It's this wonderful portrait...the colours, the lights, the smells come alive..."

  • On the paradox of Kipling's love of India and reactionary views:

    "It sort of brings up this strange paradox that Kipling, who so loved India and was so brilliant at describing it, is also the reactionary who is wanting the British to rule it..."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Kipling’s Nightmare Storycraft:
  • WD (03:09): “India is a fascinating place, but it was also a harrowing place and it’s full of pitfalls. His literature is really about how he...negotiates these things.”
• The Gruesome Fate in "The Man Who Would Be King":
  • WD (07:11): “They crucified him, sir...he hung there and screamed and they took him down the next day and said it was a miracle that he wasn’t dead.”
• On Literary London:
  • AL (20:10): “There’s something else about the cultural ambiance of the place that he doesn’t like...He begins to yearn for Indian certainties, the sort of the order of Indian society.”
• The Best Man’s Speech from Hell:
  • WD (22:58): “Henry James makes a speech at the wedding which doesn't sound like one of the...It sounds like the kind of the best man's speech from hell. He says it's a union of which I don't forecast the future.”
• Kim’s Evocation of India:
  • WD (27:04–28:42): [Reads opening passage of Kim]
• On Kipling’s Paradox:
  • WD (29:13): “It sort of brings up this strange paradox that Kipling, who so loved India and was so brilliant at describing it, is also the reactionary who is wanting the British to rule it...and who ultimately is a fan of General Dyer.”

Key Timestamps

• 02:00 — Start of main discussion; “The Strange Ride of Morrowbie Jukes”
• 05:12 — First literary successes: “Departmental Ditties”
• 06:06 — “The Man Who Would Be King”: plot and themes
• 08:34 — "On the City Wall" and Lahore’s night world
• 09:58 — Soldiers and working class in Kipling’s stories
• 10:41 — Kipling’s increasing conservatism
• 12:51 — The Hersey incident, anti-Congress views
• 17:26 — Kipling leaves India, journeys through Asia and America
• 19:57 — Alienation from London’s literary world
• 22:24 — Death of Walcott Balestier, Kipling’s marriage to Carrie
• 23:53 — Life in Vermont, beginnings of The Jungle Book
• 25:43 — Writing and discussing Kim
• 29:13 — The paradox: Kipling’s love for India vs. his politics
• 31:35 — End of main content, sign-off

Tone & Voice

The conversation is lively, deeply informed, and laced with affectionate critique. Dalrymple and Lycett strike a balance between literary scholarship, biographical detail, and reflections on imperial legacies—with touches of dark humor and pathos especially when contemplating Kipling’s contradictions.

Closing Note

The episode concludes by highlighting the central paradox of Kipling’s legacy: a literary titan whose immersive love for India’s sights and sounds was haunted by an unyielding faith in British rule. Listeners are left anticipating the next episode, when Kipling returns to England and steps into his role as the “laureate of the Empire.”