Empire Podcast Episode 314: Rudyard Kipling—Villain or Visionary? (Part 3)
Hosts: William Dalrymple and Anita Anand
Date: December 9, 2025
Theme: The controversies, contradictions, and legacy of Rudyard Kipling—exploring his transformation from a celebrated writer to the "laureate of Empire," his complicity in imperialism and racism, personal tragedies, and the enduring debates about his work and worldview.
Overview
This episode of Empire delves into the latter and most contentious chapters of Rudyard Kipling’s life. Returning from America, Kipling emerges as the chief bard of British imperialism, befriending Cecil Rhodes, supporting notorious colonial actions, and writing some of his most divisive works. William Dalrymple and Anita Anand grapple openly with the darker sides of Kipling—his jingoism, racism, and unrepentant imperialism—while also acknowledging his literary genius and personal grief. The hosts reflect on how Kipling’s era and prejudices shaped his work, leading to his eventual fall from cultural grace.
Key Topics & Insights
Kipling Returns: From Satirist to Imperial Laureate
[03:18–05:35]
- Kipling returns to England after a fraught period in America and settles in Torquay—a place he finds "so smugly British that it made him want to dance naked through it with pink feathers."
- Quote: “Even Kipling… thought the town was so smugly British that it made him want to dance naked through it with pink feathers.” — William Dalrymple [07:05]
- He moves from the abused young exile and sharp satirist to an unambiguous defender of Empire, writing his two most infamous poems: “The White Man’s Burden” and “Recessional.”
The Poems That Changed Everything
[07:50–13:02]
- Recessional (1897), written for Queen Victoria’s Diamond Jubilee, carries a tone of imperial nostalgia and impending decline.
- Excerpt Read Aloud: “Lord God of hosts, be with us yet, Lest we forget. Lest we forget.” [09:20]
- The White Man's Burden (1899) becomes synonymous with the worst of colonial paternalism.
- Quote: “To regard the conquered peoples… as half devil and half child is of course just straightforwardly racist.” — William Dalrymple [12:23]
- The mood in Britain is shifting, with liberal thought questioning Empire even as Kipling writes passionate defenses.
Kipling and Technology: Odd Odes Amid Imperialism
[14:00–16:17]
- Kipling is entranced by technological progress, writing poems about everything from motorcars to deep sea cables—demonstrating his vision of Empire as a force of "progress."
- Excerpt Read Aloud: “They have awakened the timeless things, they have killed their father, Time… whispering let us be one.” — Anita Anand, quoting Kipling [15:54]
Cecil Rhodes and the South African Connection
[16:53–18:42]
- Kipling befriends Cecil Rhodes, sharing a devotion to the project of white rule in Africa, and spends winters at the “Woolsack” in Cape Town.
- Quote: “‘You are my dream.’”—Kipling to Rhodes, relayed by William Dalrymple [18:30]
- The creation of Rhodesia is current, and Kipling’s alliance with Rhodes further cements his reputation as “the most imperialist of imperial writers.”
Personal Tragedy: Death of Kipling’s Daughter
[19:40–20:53]
- During a family trip to America, Kipling’s daughter Josephine dies at age six; the grief marks Kipling permanently.
- Quote: “He doesn't entirely bounce back, ever…” — William Dalrymple [20:06]
- A Jungle Book copy inscribed “for Josephine Kipling, for whom it was written by her father, May 1894” is discussed as a poignant artifact.
Seeking Solace at Bateman’s: Literary Diversions and Just So Stories
[24:23–26:41]
- Kipling finds solace in Sussex, falls in love with England, motoring, and writes Puck of Pook’s Hill and the beloved Just So Stories.
- Excerpt Read Aloud: “The wildest of all the wild animals was the cat. He walked by himself and all places were alike to him.” — William Dalrymple [26:08]
- The lighter, magical quality of these stories stands in stark contrast to his political rage and imperial anxieties.
Imperial Paranoia: Rage, Decline, and Out-of-Touchness
[26:57–30:28]
- Kipling rages against rising German power, Irish nationalism, and the erosion of Imperial confidence.
- Satirized in the Strul Peter Alphabet as “K for Kipling and Kitchener”—now viewed as a relic of a passing age.
- Quote from satire: “When the empire wants a stitch in her, send for Kipling and for Kitchener.” [30:11]
Personal Loss: The Death of Jack Kipling in World War I
[32:00–36:39]
- Kipling’s son Jack, nearly blind, dies in his first battle at Loos after Kipling uses connections to get him commissioned.
- Quote: "He goes straight into battle and is killed almost immediately." — William Dalrymple [32:55]
- The family’s guilt and devastation are palpable; Kipling blames himself and the generals.
- Poem My Boy Jack and others reflect ambiguous pride amid overwhelming grief.
- Excerpt Read Aloud: “There was none to tend him or mark, and I know not how he fell…” — Co-host [35:36]
- Excerpt Read Aloud: “‘Have you news of my boy Jack?’ ‘Not this tide nor any tide, except that he did not shame his kind.’” — William Dalrymple [36:01]
- Kipling helps found the (now Commonwealth) War Graves Commission, writing “known unto God” for the unknown soldier.
Kipling’s Unyielding Empire: Broken Romanticism, But No Repentance
[38:55–40:55]
- Despite huge loss, Kipling stays pro-Empire, writing regimental histories and propaganda; his faith in Empire is shaken only in his trust of the generals, not in the cause.
- Kipling despises Gandhi and supports General Dyer post-Jallianwala Bagh massacre, becoming a donor to Dyer’s fund.
- Quote (Anita Anand): "He absolutely despises the ... half naked Indian Fakir—Mahatma Gandhi—and the Indian National Congress." [40:36]
- Younger generations, including George Orwell, openly revile Kipling’s politics and style.
- Orwell’s critique quoted: “Crude, vulgar, a patriotic music hall turn. Morally insensitive and aesthetically disgusting.” — William Dalrymple [41:37]
Death, Legacy, and Final Judgments
[43:53–47:44]
- Kipling dies in 1936, still respected by the establishment, buried in Westminster Abbey’s Poets’ Corner.
- Dalrymple and Anand debate Kipling’s enduring worth, torn between his racism and his literary talent.
- Quote (Dalrymple): “He is also a great writer, and some of his short stories, his novel Kim, his poems ... remain great works of literature.” [44:31]
- Dalrymple cites Edward Said: “Kipling would no more have questioned the right of the white European to rule than he would have argued with the Himalayas. Yet … Kim is a remarkable, complex novel.”
- Quote (Anita Anand): “I can recognize … where you give yourself a punch up while reading him, I think I’m there. I can appreciate the words, but it doesn’t make me cut him any more slack…” [47:44]
Notable Quotes and Moments
- “He is the embodiment of racism. He is the embodiment of imperialism… He is also a great writer.” — William Dalrymple [44:31]
- “I can’t love somebody who would have hated me and hated, you know, everyone I know and care about, because I’m exactly the kind of character who he loathed and was his worst nightmare.” — Anita Anand [47:05]
- On Kipling and Empire: “He loved India, he hated Indians…” — Co-host [47:26]
- On Kipling’s internal storm: “Kipling is a writer with a storm inside him, and he creates a mirror storm of contradictory responses in the reader.” — Salman Rushdie, quoted by Dalrymple [45:31]
Episode Timeline (Selected Timestamps)
- [03:18] — Recap: Kipling’s early life, American sojourn, and troubled English return.
- [07:50] — Writing “Recessional” and “White Man’s Burden.”
- [15:40] — Kipling’s technological odes and “Deep Sea Cable.”
- [18:42] — Friendship with Cecil Rhodes and visits to South Africa.
- [19:40] — Death of Josephine Kipling.
- [24:23] — Finding Bateman’s and the “Just So Stories.”
- [26:59] — Irish nationalism, fear of Germany, and Kipling’s reaction.
- [32:00] — Jack Kipling’s death at Loos.
- [35:21] — “My Boy Jack” and other poems of loss.
- [38:55] — Kipling and War Graves, enduring imperialism, disdain for Gandhi.
- [41:37] — Orwell’s attack on Kipling.
- [43:53] — Kipling’s death and burial in Westminster Abbey.
- [44:31–47:44] — Hosts’ debate: Can we admire Kipling’s work while abhorring his views and actions?
Conclusion
This episode offers a candid, conflicted, and poignant portrait of Rudyard Kipling, his beliefs, and his legacy. The hosts neither exonerate nor completely condemn him—acknowledging the dazzling contradictions of an artist “at war with himself.” Kipling emerges as both a cautionary tale and a testament to the entanglement of genius, prejudice, and pain in the making of a writer’s legacy.
Next episode: V.S. Naipaul, with guest Ben Moser.