← Empire: World History
Empire: World History
316. Hitler's Photographer: Nazi Secrets, Eva Braun, & Escaping Justice
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- [00:01]
A
If you want access to bonus episodes reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to empire club@www.empirepoduk.com. this episode is brought to you by the American Revolution on pbs. It began with voices carried on the wind, arguments in taverns, whispers at kitchen tables, the tramp of boots on muddy fields. From sparks kindled in America grew an upheaval that shook an empire, gave birth to a nation, and altered the course of history. Ken Burns landmark PBS series the American Revolution casts the familiar in a new light, illuminating stories left in shadow. The American Revolution is more than history. It's an exploration of the United States at its founding, its people, values, families and its place in the world. The choices of past and present are woven into the same fabric. As the United states nears its 250th year, these stories remind us that the revolution is not history pressed between pages, but a force still shaping the world today. The American Revolution premieres on Sunday, November 16th on PBS and the PBS app.
- [01:29]
B
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- [02:02]
A
Marvel Studios the Fantastic Four First Steps is now streaming on Disney. We will protect you as a family. Light em up. Johnny Marvel's first family is certified fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. That is fantastic. And critics say it's one of the best superhero movies of all time. Marvel Studios the Fantastic Four first steps now streaming on Disney.
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B
Rated PG 13.
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A
What time is it, Ben? It's clobber time.
- [02:39]
B
Hello and welcome to Empire with me.
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A
Anita Anand and me, William Durimpel.
- [02:44]
B
We often discuss on this podcast the rise and fall of empires through battles, invasions, powerful leaders. We look through those lenses. But we thought today we'd look at the men and women who are actually behind the lenses themselves, the ones who are photographing these great epochs. Because often what they're photographing is fascinating. No doubt about it changes history, but also their lives are really interesting. You may not have heard their names, but you will have seen their work. You will have seen these images. So three photographers we're going to be concentrating on in this little mini series. One is the product of a dying Ottoman Empire. The other is the son of a rising Third Reich. And the third is a mousy woman, very easily dismissed, who takes on a powerful king of Europe and wins. And their names, let me tell you right now, will probably be unfamiliar to you, but their images will not, because you see them everywhere you go. You will have seen them on postage stamps, you will have seen them on big portraits hanging in important houses.
- [03:44]
A
Banknotes.
- [03:45]
B
Banknotes. Yep, absolutely. So, you know, that's why we want to do this.
- [03:50]
A
So now you'll know the story behind the famous picture.
- [03:53]
B
Shall we start with Hoffman, though? Let's start in this episode with the monster and then we'll move on to other people. And the thing about this monster, through his own mouth, you hear an awful lot of, and for want of a better word, bullshit about what he knew and what he thought the Fuhrer was thinking at the time.
- [04:12]
A
He's clearly not telling the truth a lot of the time. So, Anita, so you, when you were telling me this story, opened the tale in 1950 in an internment camp in Munich where Nazi prisoners are being kept in a camp. So it's slightly like one of those early 1950s movies, the Spy who Came in for the Cold and Richard Burton in an overcoat in post war Germany. But in this case, it's not a spy, it is a journalist coming to see this photographer, Heinrich Hoffman in his internment camp. Take the story on from there, Anita.
- [04:51]
B
So the journalist himself, and this is an article in the New Yorker, is very interesting and extensive. Bernard Tapper himself is interesting. He was born in England, he lived most of his life in the United States. He was the son of Jewish immigrants and he was drafted to fight in World War II. But he hadn't seen any action. But now that it was all over, Bernard Tapper wanted to understand what was going on in the mind of the Nazis. So, you know, I mean, the whole world did. The Nuremberg trials were, you know, when everybody was on the edge of their seats to hear from the mouths of the monsters why they did what they did. And he becomes Bernard Tapper, completely obsessed with Heinrich Hoffman, who is known in those days as Hitler's photographer and is actually quite famous at the time, in 1950, people know there are articles written about him. He is known as the man who introduced Hitler to. To Eva Braun, the Fuhrer's future wife.
- [05:45]
A
Which is a story we're gonna hear, which is an extraordinary story in itself. So there are some completely extraordinary images by this guy Hoffman. Let me describe one of his most famous photographs. It's in a darkened room with one light source pointing from an angle so that you can't see Hitler's clothes other than the white of his collar. And his face and his hands are lit up in the darkness as he practices a speech against a mirror. And the full craziness of Hitler is brilliantly revealed by these photographs, which, interestingly, he liked very much. I mean, you would have thought this would be good evidence for the prosecution that Hitler was a madman, because in these photographs, he is. In one, his palms are raised to the ceiling, wide splayed. In another, he's pointing as if singling out some person in the crowd for execution or for solitary confinement or to be sent off to a concentration camp. In a third, his fists are clenched up in there in a kind of mad sort of dictator paroxysm of fury. And yet, apparently, these were photographs that he completely loved, and they are brilliant as works of art, if you remove the subject. They are extraordinary shots.
- [07:07]
B
Hitler loved, loved those photographs. And no photographs were released into the wild unless they were approved by Hitler. And the man who took the vast majority of those photographs was Heinrich Hoffman. So that entire studio setup was all, you know, by design. None of it was like, oh, let me just take a rehearsal picture for you backstage. None of that. They knew what they were doing. They. They thought that this was a set of photographs that would project his strength and his virility and his leadership and all of that kind of stuff. But the other thing was that the reason Hoffman, as rich as he was, is that he was very, very clever, and he knew that these photographs would be reproduced. They were made to be reproduced around the world to tell the world about Hitler. This is in 1925, mind you. So this is before this man has actually sort of seized control of the world, but he keeps the copyright on all the photographs that he takes of Hitler.
- [08:04]
A
I'm just intrigued that such things existed in 1920s. You'd have thought this is something you associate with Annie leibovich or Don McCullen or someone. You know, they get an amazing image and they can copyright it. But I'm amazed in the 1920s that propaganda photography was sufficiently advanced.
- [08:21]
B
They were. He did. And these photographs, even sort of in 25, if their circulation was going to be fairly limited. Hoffman had a belief in this man, that he would one day rule the world, and so this would be his fortune. And he wasn't wrong cut. Now forward to 1939 where these photographs are widely in circulation. And there are articles in Time magazine, sure, about Hitler, but there are also articles about Hoffman in 1939. So they do this sort of fawning profile in April of 1939 and they are talking in awe about the business acumen of Herr Professor Hoffman. And I sent you a little extract of that article.
- [09:05]
A
Shall I read it?
- [09:05]
B
I'd love you to read it. What they're obsessed with is how this man is making money off the back of Hitler's image.
- [09:11]
A
Even then, this is Time magazine. He needs an American accent, doesn't it? So Professor Hoffman's potential monopoly of German news photography has made him one of his country's richest men. He sells more than a million Hitler portraits a year. His Hitler pictures range from miniatures to 8 by 12 foot posters which sell for 1,050 marks. That's $420 for ordinary news pictures. His standard price to German publications is 20 to 25 marks. But US rights to a particularly fetching photograph of Dirschone Adolf sometimes bring as much as $250. Hoffman is not the only gainer by his deal with the great and good friend Adolf Hitler knows well that the least flattering photographs of himself never leave the dark room.
- [09:57]
B
They dispatched a reporter to do that Time magazine article who followed Hoffman around. And this is one of the things that they note. You know about how the ubiquitous Hoffman is always just two steps behind Hitler. When Hitler enters a fallen province or a city or appears anywhere in public. Photographic reporter Hoffman rides in the car behind him armed with a Leica camera. Hoffman darts back and forth in front of the Fuhrer unmolested. While other photographers are kept at a respectful distance. The world's news agencies clamor for Heinrich Hoffman's pictures. For he is the man who picks the photographers to cover everything the aggrandizer does. And for the best jobs, he only picks himself. He corners a market. He basically has a monopoly on Hitler's image. We should really do one of those origin stories.
- [10:48]
A
You like your Marvel origin stories?
- [10:50]
B
I do love a Marvel origin story. It is true. Because I think it's just so important to understand why people are the way they are. So why don't you sort of start us off with where he is born and you know what makes Hoffman who he is?
- [11:01]
A
Well, he's born in Bavaria in 1885 in a place called Furte. And that year Germany is rapidly industrializing and increasingly powerful. Under the rule of Kaiser Wilhelm I and Bismarck, the Iron Chancellor. And the country has only been unified, what, 14 years earlier, 1871, the year of the Franco Prussian War. And the unification transforms Germany from a collection of independent states into a cohesive empire, the German Empire, Deutsche Kaiserreich, with Berlin as its capital. And by the time that Hoffman was in his 30s, he's seen Germany rise to a great power, go to war, lose everything, become decimated by post war reparations after Versailles. And he's part of that angry army of angry young men whom Hitler's message of making Germany great again appeals. He is the target audience that Hitler is addressing. But what I'd love to know, Anita, is when does photography come into his life?
- [12:00]
B
It's kind of in his blood, William, because his father was a photographer. His father had this sort of modest studio in Regensburg and later in Munich. His brother is also somebody who works in the studio with his dad. So it's very much, you know, en famille.
- [12:14]
A
So he's a small town boy. Regensburg is this sort of, I've spent time there, it feels rather like a sort of Yorkshire pub landscape and off to the Tvund taxes palace. It reminded me very much of my school days in Yorkshire.
- [12:27]
B
I have to say you're 100% right. So small town boy in a small town business which largely made its money during this time, you know, sort of taking portraits of people in love together, very sedately sitting together or else, you know, people have come back from the First World War who are, you know, sort of in uniform, are going off to the war. It's that kind of, you know, studied studio portrait and the money is not fabulous. So Hoffman decides that he's going to be something bigger than his dad and his brother. So he travels around Germany. He also travels to London to learn photography from some of the better photographers of the time. And then he has enough self belief and there is something in this about the upper cadre of the Nazis. There is sort of self belief sometimes bordering on delusion that they are destined for very great things. He sets up his own photography studio in a much bigger city in Munich. And this obsession with Hitler starts, if you believe Hoffman, in 1914. So the date is August 2, 1914. And young Hoffman brings his camera to Munich's Audienceplatz and he photographs this crowd celebrating Germany's entry into World War I. Now a few years later, Hitler says, you know, in conversation, because he will become a very close friend of Hitler's. You know, they'll eat dinner together, they'll know each other's families, for example. But Hitler in sort of the chit chat that follows years later, says, oh, he was at that rally. So Hoffman then goes through all of his boxes, rifling around trying to find the copies that he took of, you know, sort of wide angle views of the crowds ad Odense Platz. And he discovers that he has captured, he says he's captured a young and jubilant Hitler among this crowd of thousands.
- [14:20]
A
Of people with a slightly broader moustache than the one we're used to. It's a more expansive moustache, the little kind of little stab that it is. By the time that he comes to.
- [14:30]
B
Power, you've got sort of a little Hitler head in the crowd surrounded by people looking delighted. A much younger version, but very much himself with the side sweep and the tash, as you say, a much fuller tash at the time.
- [14:42]
A
Yes, and an unusually smiley picture for Hitler. And he's thrilled because Germany has just entered the war is the reason he's looking so thrilled. There's lots of people within, boaters looking as if they're going for a sort of punting trip or something celebrating the outbreak of the First World War. And there he is in the middle of it, quite clearly him.
- [14:57]
B
It's an important part of Hoffman's origin story, but it also becomes a really important part of Hitler's origin story because he can then point back as, you know, as he rises to power, that I was there. I have always fought for the integrity, independence of Germany and you know, the fact that we are fighting the humiliation that has been visited upon us. And that image, actually, in retrospect, some people have called bullshit on it. Not that the image existed maybe, but the fact that it was perhaps, I mean, that you didn't have Photoshop in those days, but the emergence of it suggests that actually it was a convenient time to release it into the wild. And I mean, I'm not sure exactly why they say it was a lie, but some people have questioned whether Hoffman told the truth about this photograph, about any of it.
- [15:50]
A
Well, they're suggesting it was a Photoshop, that they inserted him into it or it's clearly his face.
- [15:55]
B
It is his face, but it comes out right at the time of the Reich presidential election campaign in 1932. Some say actually, and I don't know, I don't know how photography works, maybe somebody can tell me whether what was the equivalent of Photoshop back in the 1930s? But certainly some people are called bullshit and they question everything that Hoffman says.
- [16:15]
A
You can certainly manipulate pictures in 1930s. I mean just think of all those sort of Stalinist pictures of disappearing Trotsky and so on. There's no trouble manipulating images.
- [16:24]
B
Yes, of course you can manipulate photographs. You know the Conan Doyle fooling. Pictures of the fairies in the garden. If you don't know what I'm talking about, look them up. It's quite interesting. Hoffman though then sort of becomes slightly attached to Hitler. He says, he says, you know, I saw him really early on and he goes to the Western Front to take photograph for the press. And he was one of only seven people serving as war photographers in Germany in 1914 and he was the only one from Bavaria. People teased him for being a yokel. You know, sort of the Bavarian accent is, is slightly different to the Hochdeutsch, it's Bayrishdeutsch. But you know, he sort of keeps on moving up and up and he's conscripted into the German armed forces. And it is in Munich in 1918 that something happens to Hoffman that makes him actually really very ripe to become an acolyte of Hitler.
- [17:15]
A
Hoffman witnesses the so called German revolution when the Bavarian monarchy is toppled by socialist republic. Hoffman's there and seizes the opportunity to photograph the event. This is his big moment captured this historic putsch.
- [17:29]
B
That German revolution is also known as the November Revolution and it's an uprising started by workers and soldiers in the final days of World War I. And it spreads very quickly. There are two stages. The first is pretty peaceful, the second one is much more violent and the defeat of the forces of the far left clear the way for the establishment of the Weimar Republic. So it's a really important epoch marking moment. And by the autumn of 1919, what he's seen in the difference between the spirits of people in 1914 and 1918 and by 1919 in the autumn, his position just lurches right along with quite.
- [18:07]
A
A lot of the rest of Germany.
- [18:08]
B
Absolutely true. And he does talk about, you know, his motivations. He says, you know, I was for any movement that might save Germany from catastrophe. He says later, after all that was where the real money was to be made.
- [18:20]
A
I like that link between the two.
- [18:22]
B
Yeah, exactly. You know, the man is a complete capitalist and self serving by heart. By the time Hitler came to power, says Hoffman, he'd become the best advertised product in the world. I would have been a fool not to take advantage of it. Indeed, I often think of myself as basically an American type, enterprising, full of ideas for making money. Always on the spot where the big News is happening. Not satisfied with anything but the best.
- [18:45]
A
He's not wrong, is he? He's not wrong, no, he's absolutely got that spirit.
- [18:49]
B
He's not wrong. But this is an interview that he is giving years later to an American paper, to an American, you know, trying to curry favor with like, yeah, what I do, what I do. I was just, you know, taking photographs of soap powder. All of that is bullshit as well because Hoffman is one of the earliest Nazis, one of the earliest people to join the Nazi party. And he joins in April 1920. Now at this time you've got to imagine the Nazi party was pretty small.
- [19:16]
A
He's given a membership card, isn't he? And he has the number 427 at a time where the Nazi party has only 675 members.
- [19:25]
B
I've read that in cuttings a couple of times. And you know the thing that self perpetuates in cuttings, once it's in print it goes on and on. He however, in an interview has said his membership card number was 47. Which just shows you what an early adopter he was. Okay? So you might ask yourself if you thought of this man as just soap powder. If Hoffman, you really weren't sort of Nazi esque in your, in your beliefs, why did you join up? And he says, oh look, no, no, I'm not a Nazi. I saw that the party was going to make history, he said, and as a journalist it was my duty to be on the stock, so I joined the party. When you go to a funeral, said Hoffman, you don't wear a white suit, you dress like a mourner. And I had to act like a Nazi to photograph the Nazis.
- [20:11]
A
But does he actually deny being a Nazi? Because he's there from the very beginning, he's a close friend of Hitler. He can't actually pretend that he's actually a kind of radical socialist or a Weimar democrat.
- [20:22]
B
He utterly denies there was any political motivation in anything that he did. He said, I was in it for the money. This was a story. I was a journalist, I was clever, I was canny, I wanted to make money and that is why I yoked myself to this man who I knew was going places. However, and we'll come to this, he also launches the most ludicrous defense of his friend Hitler, the soap powder. And he does that as well. So everything he says is a complete mess. And honestly, he's lying. He's just lying. Of course he believed in what the Nazis were saying.
- [20:59]
A
He was right at the heart of.
- [21:00]
B
It you don't slap on a swastika and go marching around with somebody if you are just covering them, it is just not what happens. But he does.
- [21:08]
A
And Hitler famously only kept as he's in the circle people who thought exactly the same as him.
- [21:14]
B
Yeah. And thought he was wonderful. And there's also no doubt that, you know, during the 20s, Willy, there is a friendship that develops between these two men. So, you know, don't tell me you're just sort of taking photographs of an interesting man. They like each other.
- [21:27]
A
He's one of the very closest friends.
- [21:29]
B
Up until the 1920s, the mid-1920s, he'd just been on the periphery, you know, he'd sort of been taking pictures but you know, one of the people taking pictures. But very quickly he sort of inveigles his way closer and closer. Close enough to photograph Hitler but not speak to the man himself. In fact, this is the moment that changes everything, that sort of makes him break through. One time he is taking photographs of Hitler and he finds himself thrown against a wall and pinned by Hitler's thugs because he's getting a bit too close. And after the event, both Hitler and Hoffman happened to be at a social wedding at the time where according to again, and this is Hoffman's own words, so take them as you wish, Hitler approaches Hoffman and says, you know, haven't I seen you somewhere before? And Hoffman says, I told him certainly he had and that I was the cameraman that his strong armed boys had grabbed hold of at the doorway. And Hitler apologised and asked if he could do anything to square things. And Hoffman says, just stand there and pose for your portrait. And Hitler said, no, no, I'm not going to do that. Because according to Hoffman, Hitler's manner throughout the conversation was pleasant. But he said, there's a reason why I can't allow my picture to be taken at present, but if the time ever comes when I can, you will be the photographer.
- [22:42]
A
Now this was a bit of the story I didn't understand. Need to explain this to me. Hitler in his youth was photograph of verse. Was that it?
- [22:49]
B
He wasn't in control of his image and he had other things to do and other interests. This wasn't important for him. Well, maybe he was trying to fob off this man, you know, I don't.
- [22:56]
A
Know but I've read, I've read he had a camera phobia in his early days so that he didn't like being photographed. One of the reasons I think the Hoffman was so successful was that there Were so few photographs of Hitler available because he wasn't photographed. And so when Hoffman inveigled himself into the inner circle and got this monopoly, there were no other photographs for newspapers to use. This was the source of his fortune, as I understand it.
- [23:18]
B
He does make this promise though, you know, this Das Fehsprechen, the vow, if you like, that, you know, if ever I do decide that I'm going to be photographed, you will be my man. And two years later he comes into Hoffman's studio for his first portrait study. And biographers have said that this is the moment where he starts to understand that American news syndication is really important. Because if you have photographs that the west will run, then somehow you have a legitimacy back at home that you can't buy for money on the streets in Germany. And he said some cheap photographer managed to snap a picture of him on the street and sold it abroad. And that is where Hitler decides, you know what, whether I like being photographed or not, people are now going to photograph me because I'm on the upper and so I might as well take control. So it is these two people together trying to control the image that the world will see.
- [24:10]
A
But there is also the important factor of his wife's pasta making skills, which is the important part of the story. Luring Hitler in by giving him a particular spaghetti with tomato sauce that the Fuhrer found irresistible. Is this true?
- [24:24]
B
This is what Hoffman says, you know, that their friendship is built on pasta.
- [24:27]
A
And fascism and a cat, a cat called Nazi.
- [24:30]
B
Imaginatively, yes, a cat called Nazi. So yes, I mean for Hoffman to say, look, not political, just, you know, trying to make my way in the world. His cat was called Freaking Nazi.
- [24:41]
A
The cat's full name, that was its nickname. The full name of the cats was Ignaz von Bogenhausen, which was naturally reduced from Ignaz to Nazi.
- [24:51]
B
I mean, not naturally at all, it isn't at all natural. But Ignaz von Borgenhausen, who is, you know, this very sort of stuck up, blue blooded cat, apparently from his name. So he talks about these spaghetti dinners. This is this story that Hoffman likes to tell, that these overly spaghetti dinners that his wife would cook, these two men became very, very close for a long time. He says our place was about the only private house in which Hitler was a regular guest. The atmosphere was lively, it was bohemian. All sorts of people, artists, musicians, doctors, actors, they all dropped in and there were always arguments going on.
- [25:21]
A
These are all the people presumably which Hitler will very shortly be putting into concentration camps or having disappeared. But at this moment he comes to this gathering, according to Hoffman, because he enjoys the lively bohemian atmosphere.
- [25:34]
B
But Hoffman does also say something very interesting. He does also say that at this point in his life it was possible to disagree with Hitler about politics. And he said, you know, and again, take this as you will, my wife and I frequently disagreed with him. You couldn't change his mind, but at least you could argue with him. Later on. Of course it was almost impossible to mention a subject that was, was disagreeable to him. But then he was a wonderful conversationalist. He never read a novel that I know of, but he used to plow through history and technical books.
- [26:03]
A
Yes, you can't imagine Hitler sitting down with a Jane Austen, can you? It's not his natural thing, but apparently he loved technical books. So if you wanted to chat to Hitler about marine technology or the society of bees in a beehive, Hitler would be full of specialist information about these matters or the Ice Age. This was Hitler sort of chit chat.
- [26:22]
B
Also just a hilarious observation that he loved to pontificate about the best way to look after an automobile. Never drove, never service his vehicle in his life. Hitler, but you know, would just hold forth at the table saying, oh, you know, I know everything about cars. He has, he has a bet with the director of the Mercedes factory about the RPM of one of his motor cars. So, you know, even then you've got this man who just thinks he knows everything about everything. And I can imagine, I mean, reading between the lines, he's an absolute bore at the table. But Hoffman carries on introducing them.
- [26:52]
A
But there is another part of the Hoffman establishment that Hitler is becoming increasingly interested. It's not just the Nazi cat or the tomato sauce cooked by Mrs. Hoffman. It is Hoffman's assistant who is one blonde girl called Eva Braun. More after the break.
- [27:18]
B
Hello there. Well, with Christmas bearing down upon us, we've got some really exciting, exciting episodes planned for you about St. Nicholas, aka the Claus himself.
- [27:28]
A
I am greatly looking forward to those episodes. But if you want to be your very own version of St. Nicholas this year, you can gift the history lover in your life membership of the Empire Club and drop some strong hints and ask for it yourself.
- [27:41]
B
In addition, I mean, I think it is the perfect gift for a history fan, for an Empire fan. And let me tell you what you get. You get so much. You get ad free listening weekly bonus episodes. You get early access to live show tickets.
- [27:54]
A
Members also get a weekly newsletter with extra information on the stories covered in the show and exclusive discounts on books we recommend.
- [28:02]
B
Yeah, and if you are anything like Willy, come on, own up. You've left your shopping till the last nanosecond, haven't you?
- [28:08]
A
I didn't tell you that. But it's true.
- [28:11]
B
We've known each other a long time, Willy. This is the perfect gift.
- [28:15]
A
If you want to give someone membership online today, it will land in their inbox on Christmas Day. It's much easier than resurrecting three pickled and murdered youths. Which is exactly, of course, what St. Nicholas did, as you will discover in our exciting Christmas episode.
- [28:30]
B
Can I just say, it's lovely that you say of course. That's what he did. Anyway, just head off to empirepod uk.com that's empirepoduk.com and click on gifts. Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry.
- [28:50]
A
That I wouldn't get my new contacts.
- [28:51]
B
In time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.
- [29:11]
A
This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, There's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org, jackDaniels and Old Number 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee Whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. Coca Cola for the big, for the small, the short and the tall. Peacemakers, risk takers for the optimists, pessimists for long distance love.
- [29:51]
B
For introverts and extroverts, the thinkers and.
- [29:55]
A
The doers for old friends. And new Coca Cola for everyone. Pick up some Coca Cola at a store near you. Welcome back. So we have just discovered that as well as a Nazi cat, an excellent pastor, the Hoffman household has a young assistant who is interested in photography and is in fact budding photographer. And this is none other than the notorious Eva braun. She's about 18 at the time and has been handling this massive traffic of photographs produced in the Hoffman studio. And she completely worships Hitler. She is the young woman that thinks Hitler is the rock star pinup. And she's completely breathless at the thought of meeting Hitler himself. So when he Comes to the studio for some portraits. A setup of natural photographs of him giving a firebrand speech. She is the giggling fan girl in the corner. And Hitler notices her.
- [30:57]
B
He notices it and he loves it. And can I also just say this is not unusual. I grew up with sort of posters of actually Richard Burton, who we've mentioned before, and Morton Harkett on my wall. Very confused child.
- [31:07]
A
You had very good taste.
- [31:08]
B
I did have very good taste, thank you. But you know, young, young girls would have posters of Hitler on their walls. So Eva Braun is one of many who's becoming obsessed with this man who's always in the newspapers and always in magazines. And he notices and he loves it because he loves being adored. And he says to Hoffman one day, this little girl is in love with me, Hoffman, what can I do? And once he said, hoffman, Hoffman. She threatens to kill herself for love. I must take care of her. He starts inviting Eva Braun and her sister to Berchtesgarten and giving her presents. And gradually he becomes attached to her and she becomes inseparable, inseparable from him. And this idea of, you know, Hoffman being the linchpin will come up at his trial later, post war, where he was accused of having influence on Hitler through his connection of Eva Braun as somehow, you know, Heinrich Hoffman, not just a photographer but also something of a string puller when it comes to the Nazi hierarchy. And he says, my God, that girl, that poor girl, she never had any influence on him herself. What am I supposed to be doing?
- [32:17]
A
But Frau Hoffmann, she's encouraging Hitler to get married. And Hitler shows no sign of interest in this prospect, although he's quite interested in Eva Braun. And Frau Hoffman allegedly says that Hitler replied that he knew he would make a woman unhappy. He knew he had no time. He doesn't want a pompadour, he says they don't want a political blue stocking. Instead he's very happy with Eva Braun, who's this very ordinary, enthusiastic, Hitler worshipping assistant of Hoffman.
- [32:47]
B
Not the prettiest, not the most striking.
- [32:50]
A
Very sort of blonde in a sort of Nazi way. She does look like central casting kind of Nazi youth from a movie. She does fit the, fit the bill.
- [32:58]
B
Yeah, but I mean that's, there's work that's gone into that at that point. But you know, just as a young girl she's fairly mousy if anything. So you know, eventually this relationship with Hitler is the biggest thing in her life.
- [33:08]
A
She is in the bunker at the end with Hitler and as this Hitler worshipping obsessive will not leave his side. And in the final days, hold up in the bunker as the Soviets head closer to finishing off the war and finishing off Hitler. Eva Braun is in there with him and has Hitler's going madder and madder and issuing orders to Nazi battalions that no longer exist and armies that have been decimated, ordering them to do things that are less and less plausible. As the whole German war effort collapses, Eva Braun actually maintains what observers call a quiet dignity. She socializes with the secretaries, reminisces about happier times in the Berghoff retreat, and is oddly calm in the face of what is clearly this sort of coming showdown with the end. And just after midnight on April 29, 1945, Hitler proposes marriage, just as the whole thing is about to go down. And there's a brief civil ceremony in the bunker's map room, not the most romantic place you'd have thought for a wedding reception. And Hitler dictates his last will and testament that same day, once again, of course, blaming what he calls international jury for the war and for Germany's ills. And then the following day, on the afternoon of April 30, after testing the effectiveness of a Sinai capsule on his dog, who was called Blondie, Hitler and his new wife of one day previously married, they say their goodbyes to the remaining bunker staff, and then they retire to their private study. It's Eva Braun that uses the cyanide capsule while Hitler simultaneously shoots himself in the right temple. And their bodies are carried out to the chancery garden by the staff, doused in gasoline, set ablaze to prevent them from falling into enemy hands. Of course, the next person into the bunker is none other than Lee Miller, another blonde woman photographer who famously photographs herself in Hitler's bathtub a day later. Anyway, back to Hoffman. What's happened to him while all this is going down?
- [35:23]
B
It's just one of those things that you said that Hitler, even at the end, even sort of during his wedding ceremony, right. You know, sort of the moments of before he's about to kill himself, is blaming international Jewry. And then will become clear afterwards just how far his hatred of the Jews has gone with his final solution. Hoffman will get asked about this. So let's go back in time. So I talked about Bernard Tapper, the British Jewish journalist who's now working for an American publication for the New Yorker, and who goes to see him in 1950. And Tapper is desperate, like so many were at the time. Geeta Sereni being one that really sticks in my mind about how Much people knew and how they are squaring the reality of those horrors.
- [36:05]
A
Gita, we both knew, didn't we? Her obsession was Albert Speer, the architect. And she carried on, wrote this extraordinary book on Spear and drilled away at him over many years trying to find the truth. But Tapper anyway is a briefer visit. But he goes to see not Spear, but Hoffman.
- [36:22]
B
What he wants, what he really wants is regret. He wants some explanation from a man who clearly adored Hitler, who knew him intimately about his knowledge also of the extermination camps. And what he gets is something really different from Hoffman. So cut back to that landscape of being in a prison camp and the towers and everything else. And Tapper is looking to Hoffman who by this time is a gray haired, slightly diminished man. And he says, look, just, just tell me what you knew. Just tell me what you knew. And Hoffman says no, no, no, no, no, no, look, didn't really know any of that. And also diminishes what the that was. And also completely paraglides over the fact that he was somebody who was absolutely in the Nazi machine. So at one point Hitler appoints him as an official in his, his government if you like. And he has to be the man who looks at works of art and decides whether they are pornographic, whether they are threats to the Nazi ideal. And lots of paintings at this time are confiscated. Also some paintings as we all now know went missing from very wealthy Jewish households. A lot of them end up in Hoffman's house. He is post war deemed to be by the Allies Art Looting Investigations Act.
- [37:47]
A
He's a Nazi looter of Jewish art.
- [37:49]
B
A major offender, A major, A major offender in Nazi art plundering from the Jews. And he is an art dealer during the war. He is a collector. He has an astonishing array. In fact, Der Spiegel as recently as 2016 did a survey of Nazi looted art. And it has said that Hoffman was one of the greediest parasites of the Hitler plague. He was of the main profiteers of the Nazi state. He was in charge of that department that I was telling you. The commission for the exploitation of confiscated works of degenerate art. That was it. Anything was degenerate, it would be taken. And the fact that it ended up in his bloody house or in his vaults tells you a lot. In 1943, William, his personal fortune was valued at almost 6 million reichsmarks. And four years later the Americans listed 278 works of art that Hoffman claimed untruthfully to have acquired legally. So you know, there is an entire Mountain of evidence that not just knowledgeable about the antisemitism, the plundering, the sending off to death camps, the confiscation of property, but also directly profiteering from it.
- [39:01]
A
You mentioned this committee he's on which is judging art. This was a big deal. This was not a small thing. And we often forget, I think, how obsessed the Nazis were with art. And I went to an exhibition this spring in Dallas which put together many of the pictures which the Nazis, Nazis put on exhibitions of art they disapproved of to shame the artists that were producing what they regarded as degenerate art. And there's this extraordinary exhibition on this year in Dallas of Weimar Republic art which was put on and I think something like 2 million people went to see this show of degenerate art. And it's very, very good. And then we forget of course, that the Weimar Republic was this extraordinary artistic haven with extraordinary artistic life, much of which was conducted by Jewish artists. And at this moment in Dallas you can actually go and see a reconstruction of one of these shows that the Nazis put on to blacklist the artists involved and to shame them.
- [40:06]
B
Hoffman was head of that department. Hoffman was in charge of that department. Hoffman was the one who had the final say on whether something was degenerate or not. And it just so happens to that some of the most expensive works of art, because it weren't just by Jewish painters, but you know, things owned by Jewish owners were taken and confiscated by some of the greatest names in the art world. And they ended up with him. He does get sentenced post war for this looting and this amassing of stolen goods. 10 year sentence.
- [40:33]
A
Is that what they get him on? That's the charge against him. It's not that he's part of the inner circle, it's not that he's the photographer, it's that he's taken, taken looted works of Jewish art.
- [40:41]
B
He's taken, looted works of art in his capacity as a member of the Nazi machine. He gets ten years, but weirdly he only serves four of those years. Even more weirdly, and I cannot understand somebody, please listening to this, explain to me the thinking of the Bavarian state. But in 1956 the Bavarian states orders all art that it has confiscated from Hoffman to be returned to him, which is so mental I don't understand it at all.
- [41:09]
A
What was his defence? He said this was his art, it wasn't looted.
- [41:12]
B
He said, I got it legally. There's plenty of evidence that he did. Not that the Spiegel article of 2016 goes into this and in fact, you know, if you're interested in these articles, the other article that we are going to be putting on, if you are a member of our club, we'll put a link to it. That Tapa interview, which Benna Tapa, which I think is such a good interview, just join empire club. It's empirepoduk.com, empirepoduk.com, we'll stick a link on that. So Hoffman, you know, says, what did you know of the anti Semitism? And this is what Hoffman says. He says, Hitler was no anti Semite.
- [41:45]
A
Nonsense.
- [41:45]
B
Seriously, What? And he says, no, no, he was no anti Semite. He was not a Jew hater. Not like people like Streicher or Dinter and Streiche and Dinter, by the way. I mean, again, we might put some links to these absolutely appalling creatures, but they are horrible Nazi fascist ideologues. I mean, Dinter in particular wrote anti.
- [42:07]
A
Semitic novels with titles like Sin against.
- [42:10]
B
The Blood or Having any Relations with a Jew would Pollute the Blood, that kind of thing. They are awful people. He says, well, they're not like him.
- [42:17]
A
I need to explain to me, because I don't get this, two things. How can he possibly push this outrageous line that Hitler's not obsessively anti Jewish? And how did the Bavarian government give him his pictures back?
- [42:28]
B
I cannot answer for the Bavarian government to this day. I don't understand. Neither does Germany. It was a, a mad, mad decision in the 1950s and no one can explain it, least of all the present day Germans who think about it and talk about it. Why did he say, because he's a liar. He's just a liar. Hoffman, by diminishing his knowledge of or his association with, he's doing this really weird act of, you know, yeah, we were friends. He wants to impress Tapper. We were really, really good friends. We were like this. We were so tight. But also. Yeah, but he never said anything that anti Semitic in front of me. Then he says, no, no, he did, but you know, he was doing it for the greater good of Germany. Because he does also say in this interview, you know, Hitler's anti Semitism was a matter of principle. He wanted to solve the Jewish problem by law, not force. I mean, just absolute offensive, really offensive nonsense coming out of Hoffman.
- [43:20]
A
Now this is in contrast to Albert Speer, wasn't it? Because Albert Speer very much did repent.
- [43:26]
B
Yes, but also, can we heavily caveat that? So the story of Shabir Albert Speer, I have talked about it. On this podcast before, before, if you remember the club, I've described Gita Soroni's book as one of my favourite books of all time. Absolute hero of mine. So what she does with Albert Speer, who is the architect for Hitler, he's the one who designs all those monstrously large buildings. He then also takes over some of the work camps where, you know, materials are cut and hewn and the rivets are made for his visions of architecture. And Gitter keeps saying, but Albert, you must have known. You must have known that they were Jewish slaves who were doing this work. You must have known that when contingents of men disappeared from your workforce, where they were going, they were being sent to Auschwitz and Treblinka. You must have known. And Speer all the way through says, I did not know, I did not know. At Nuremberg his life is spared where others of his caliber in the Nazi machine are hanged. It's because he's the only one who says, I take responsibility, I didn't know. But all of these evil things that have happened, I take responsibility. And so Speer is spared. But Geeta's not happy with that. She keeps going after him. But Albert, how could you not have known? And she produces work order after work order showing his signature saying that he knew that men were disappearing on his watch. And it's chipping away at a man's self delusion perhaps that, you know, she finally gets to the truth of what he knew. And it is a truth that will ultimately break him completely. But Hoffman, you know, not so much. I mean, this man is such a shameless tart of a man. So let's talk about his end.
- [44:57]
A
This is not the ending we want to this story because he basically gets off, doesn't he? He's released and he gets his pictures.
- [45:03]
B
Back and he gets his money. I mean he makes money off this. So he's released in 1950. He is though determined to capitalise on his links and his intimate knowledge of Hitler. So he brings out this 10 part autobiographical series called Hoffman's Tales. In 1954 it's published in Muniche Illustratiet magazine and it's interviews that take place and some of his pictures. And then he comes out with this book, this book of Memoirs in 1955.
- [45:29]
A
Under the title Hitler Was My Friend.
- [45:31]
B
I mean just absolutely bonkers. He doesn't though, I mean, you might be happy to hear get much time to enjoy this sort of second lease of life because he dies in 1957 so, you know, a year after all this stuff is returned him by the Bavarian government in 1956, he dies in 1957, he's 72 years of age. He lies in a family grave near Munich. And if you were to visit that graveyard, you would miss the gravestone. It's sort of largely been reclaimed by.
- [45:59]
A
Nature, covered in ivy. Yeah. When we hear stories of the Nazis and of Hitler in the bunker and everything, we're used to hearing a terrible end for those involved with the crimes of the Nazis. We're used to them dying in prison or being hung after the Nuremberg trials or moments of catharsis as they admit their guilt and see the error of their ways. What's so troubling about this story and why this is an important story, I think, is that Hoffman doesn't apologize for what he's done. He publishes his memoir, Hitler Was My Friend. He dies with his art collection intact, and he dies without having admitted his guilt in any of this. So I think it's a salutary lesson that in a sense, justice is not always done. That there are horrific, unredeemed stories from these horrors and that Hoffman, who has made so much money from the Nazis, dies in his bed surrounded by his family. It's not the ending we want, but that is the ending that history gives us.
- [47:07]
B
Never promised you a rose garden, just interesting stories. And we've got another very interesting story in the next episode for you. We're going to be discussing the man behind the most iconic photo of Winston Churchill. It's the face on the five pound note. The photographer's story, though. Oh, my God, it is so fascinating. A refugee who flees the horrors of the Armenian genocide to become one of the richest photographers in the world, where you've got, you know, sort of a listers. Absolutely. Banging down his door to be photographed by him. His name is Karsh. You'll hear all about him in the next episode. But till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Anand.
- [47:46]
A
And goodbye from me, William Durrymple. And Doug. Here we have the limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.
- [48:07]
B
Fascinating.
- [48:08]
A
It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.
- [48:18]
B
Liberty. Liberty. Liberty Savings.
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A
Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts. The holidays mean more travel, more shopping.
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B
More time online and more personal info in more places that could expose you.
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A
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B
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- [48:56]
A
And I'm Michael Stevens, creator of Vsauce.
- [48:58]
B
We thought we would join you for.
- [48:59]
A
A moment completely uninvited.
- [49:01]
B
We are not going to stay too long. Unless you want us to, of course. We're here to tell you about our.
- [49:06]
A
Brand new show, the Rest is Science.
- [49:08]
B
Every episode is going to start with something that feels initially familiar and then we're going to unpick it and tear it apart until you no longer recognize it at all. Yeah. Banana flavour doesn't taste like bananas. Yeah, what is that about? So it is supposed to taste like an old species of banana that was wiped out in a bananapocalypse and now you will only find it in botanical collections in the gardens of billionaires. Wow. Banana candy is actually the ghost of a long extinct banana. So if you like scratching the surface thinking a bit little bit deeper or weirder. Yes, definitely that too. You can join Michael and I every Tuesday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.