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- [00:01]
William Dalrymple
If you want access to bonus episodes reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to empire club@www.empirepoduk.com. this episode is brought to you by the American Revolution on pbs. It began with voices carried on the wind, arguments in taverns, whispers at kitchen tables, the tramp of boots on muddy fields. From sparks kindled in America grew an upheaval that shook an empire, gave birth to a nation, and altered the course of history. Ken Burns landmark PBS series the American Revolution casts the familiar in a new light, illuminating stories left in shadow. The American Revolution is more than history. It's an exploration of the United States at its founding, its people, values, families and its place in the world. The choices of past and present are woven into the same fabric. As the United states nears its 250th year. These stories remind us that the revolution is not history pressed between pages, but a force still shaping the world today. The American Revolution premieres on Sunday, November 16th on PBS and the PBS app.
- [01:29]
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- [02:21]
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- [02:28]
Anita Anand
Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts.
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Anita Anand
I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts.
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Anita Anand
I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste.
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- [02:51]
Anita Anand
This episode of Empire contains detailed descriptions of Violence which some listeners may find upsetting. Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Anand.
- [03:11]
William Dalrymple
And me, William Dalrymple.
- [03:13]
Anita Anand
So today we're going to talk about another photographer. We brought you the monstrous Heinrich Hoffman in the last episode. This man, though very much a goodie, I think, in comparison, he's so famous during his lifetime that he went by just the one name, Karsh. K A R S H. And this is a man who produced, I mean, thousands of images, but by far the most famous is the one that's dubbed the Roaring lion portrait of Winston Churchill. Now you're thinking, I haven't seen anything by Karsh. You have. If you live in Great Britain. Just take out a five pound note and look at the picture on that note, because it is that roaring lion picture of Karsh's, of Winston Churchill. And it was one that sort of came to symbolise the defiance of the British Isles in the face of. Of the Nazi thread.
- [04:05]
William Dalrymple
But it's also half the pictures you've ever seen from the 1950s and early 1960s. I had no idea until you sent me the kind of snapshots of many of the great stars of that era. How many are by him? And, you know, the famous image of Dali with his pencil moustache. I mean, it goes on Audrey Hepburn. Half the most famous images of that era are by this one photographer.
- [04:32]
Anita Anand
Yeah. And, you know, a man who comes from such a background to suddenly be taking pictures, like you say, of Hollywood film stars, but also sort of in politics, leaders of the world. I mean, he's the man who takes one of the last pictures of fdr, Franklin Delano Roosevelt on his feet. He takes pictures of Nehru, he takes King Faisal. He's David Ben Gurion, Haile Selassie, Nikita Khrushchev. I mean, he's got pictures of Robert Oppenheimer and Albert Einstein. You know, some of the really iconic pictures of these people you absolutely have seen, but you may not know that they're all by this one man, Edmund Hillary. You know, that really sort of famous picture of Hillary sort of against a moody background with his kagool sort of pulled up.
- [05:20]
William Dalrymple
And the famous picture of Hemingway with his beard in his woolly knit that's on the back of all his paperbacks today. That was a cush. I had no idea. Half these images, Bogart with his hands extended, Castro sitting in a kind of sofa in a heap. All this, the period. Absolutely. There's some of the most iconic, most famous pictures all by this one man.
- [05:45]
Anita Anand
Yeah. So how is it that this one man has access, you know, was he born into some sort of, you know, nobility? Was he, you know, were doors open to. No, not at all. This man's background is every bit as fascinating as his portfolio. So let's talk about. His name was Yusuf King Karsh. That was his full name. He was born on December 23rd in 1908 in a place called Mardan in the Ottoman Empire, now part of modern day Turkey. That's a place you're quite familiar with, Willi, isn't it?
- [06:15]
William Dalrymple
It is a place I spent a lot of time, though, a while ago when I was doing my book from the Holy Mountain, because it's an area and this is obviously ties up directly with Karsh's childhood. It was an area scarred by terrible massacres in the First World War. This was a period when Russia came in from the East. The Ottoman Empire was defending itself. And the idea spread that the Christians of the Ottoman Empire, particularly the Armenians, were a fifth column. The Young Turk government decided to commit this terrible genocide of the Armenians from 1915, but which also affected the Suryani, who were the other Christ, the Syriac Christians of Mardin and midyat. And in 1994, I spent a year in the Middle east getting the testimony of the Christians of the Middle east about their various troubles. But the. One of the most compelling stories was the story of the Armenian genocide, very much set around the area that Kash had been brought up in Mardin. And it was a terrible, terrible tale because many, many were carried off and done to death in death marches to the Syrian desert. Others went into hiding. A few hid and defended themselves in mountaintop villages. And I think this is the sort of area specifically where Karsh was brought up. You had these little communities of Christians sitting on hilltop towers, literally being besieged by Ottoman troops.
- [07:53]
Anita Anand
Karsh tells this story and he tells it very well, although he dwells on his life much less than he does on the photographs of the people that he took in his lifetime. He does describe this sort of a little, at least a little bubble of happiness in his childhood. You know, his family didn't have very much, but it was a loving family. He talks about, you know, his father being basically illiterate, but having a love of beauty, especially his mother, who sort of really appreciated aesthetics. And he remembers things like, you know, really wonderful things that you can imagine. The way he describes it, sort of scraping sugar from green leaves, a type of manna, as he describes it, and letting the sugar dissolve on his tongue. So that is his memory of his very early childhood.
- [08:42]
William Dalrymple
Mardin is on the edge of a plateau and you look down on the plain of Mesopotamia below you, the Euphrates and the Tigris. This credible floodplain stretches out for hundreds of miles and you can see right down in one direction to Syria and another direction towards Iraq. And Mardin is up on the first sort of range of the mountains above the plains. Mesopotamia. It's one of my favourite, favourite areas. But not a place you wanted to be in 1915.
- [09:13]
Anita Anand
No, not in 1915. And Karsh is only 8 years old at that time. You know, he's just a little boy. And this is the time that the Ottoman Empire is in World War I, aligned with Germany and Austro Hungary. The Ruling Committee of Union and Progress, the Cup, or the Young Turks, as William's already mentioned, were very suspicious of Christian minorities. And the spotlight falls on Armenians in particular and the deportation and resettlement of Armenians takes place, which in reality was a campaign of just. Of mass killings. And historians describe it as the Armenian Genocide. And if you want to know more about that, we did this in great detail in one of our previous episodes with Eugene Rogan.
- [09:57]
William Dalrymple
It has none of the industrial efficiency of the Nazi Holocaust. This is not an autobahn to the heart of darkness so much as a rutted cart track. The Armenians are not sent off to organize gas chambers. They're marched through the desert, left to die of starvation and thirst in many cases. Others are just cut up by cavalry or beaten and bludgeoned to death. And it was particularly the Armenian middle class who got targeted. Many of the Armenians were bankers or small shopkeepers or as in the case of Kash, they were photographers, many of the great photographers of the Ottoman Empire. Abdullah Frez. There's a whole bunch of Armenians. And indeed the greatest photographer of modern Turkey was Armenian Guler originally Gulerian Aragula was the magnum photographer who produced many of the most famous images of modern Turkey. And anyway. And I think was his father a photographer? Was it a hereditary job or.
- [11:03]
Anita Anand
No, it was an uncle of his. But we'll come to one of his uncles who sort of escapes earlier than Karsh manages to and sets up in Canada. But we'll come to that in a minute. There were other uncles there and this sort of, this turmoil that William's describing hits his family directly and fully. His uncles are denounced for supposed crimes and they are taken in the middle of the night and they are put in prison. A little 8 year old Yusuf Karsh is the one who has to take food to them in the prison. And it's because his mother says, you know, you're least likely to have stuff taken from you and to be, you know, bullied by the big Turkish soldiers. If you were any older, they would certainly take what you've got and maybe take you. And so he does this. He goes to the jail every day to take two parcels. His mother says, take two parcels for your uncles, because one the guards will take, the other maybe may reach my brother's mouths. It's a very moving thing. And then one day he's just told very bluntly by his family, you don't have to do the run anymore, because word has come that both uncles are dead. And in his words, he says, one had been suffocated in a cupboard in which he'd been forced to stand for hours or even days without water and food and without air to breathe, and the other had been thrown alive into the well. And this sort of second section of childhood, you know, sort of the manna from heaven until the age of seven. And then from eight, he descends into hell, like many of the Armenian Christians who are living in this area. Attacks are increasing. There are raids, there are disappearances. And he describes what he sees himself. He says, I saw with my own eyes a dead baby hanging on a butcher's hook, which was used to suspend a sheep after slaughter. Cruelty for its own sake was everywhere. And so he takes. Just imagine this tiny little boy takes to traveling to and from school with stones in his pockets because he's always expecting to be stoned by the Turks. And he says, and occasionally I would throw a stone back in self defense. And when I tell my mother that I'd retaliated, she would say, but don't you see? If only they knew what you were doing, they wouldn't do it. It's just ignorance. So even then, you know, sort of, you know, she's lost her brothers. There is all hell breaking loose. There is this sort of voice of humanity coming from his own.
- [13:21]
William Dalrymple
I interviewed survivors from this in Diaboca. There was one woman remaining who was a survivor not far from Mardin, where Karsh was brought up in a village called Ainoardo. Many of the Suriani defended a fortified church, and for two years they fended off the local constabulary who were besieging them. And I'm amazed that Karsh survived at all, because most of the Armenians were led off in these great convoys and clubbed to death or starved and killed in the desert, and very few survived. Whether it was because they were in a remote part of the town of Mardin, or, I don't know how, because there was something like 95% casualties. And when the Young Turk government decided to round up the population, they did it with some thoroughness. So he was unusual to survive if he wasn't in one of these little fortified redoubts which defended themselves.
- [14:25]
Anita Anand
Yeah, I mean, it's almost a slow death that he describes because, you know, it becomes harder and harder for his family to find food until 1922, where, you know, the father can't trade, his mother can't buy anything, and all he remembers is hunger. And he says, you know, for years, during the worst period of the persecutions and Armenia, we didn't see a piece of good bread, much less white bread. It was black bread, very rough, made from oats and barley and I don't know what else, so coarse you could hardly swallow it. And he describes this sort of one day when he receives this piece of white bread with a golden crust, and he says, it comes to symbolize to me everything that life was intended to be. White bread was the ideal life. To have this cake like bread for the rest of eternity, that would have been heaven itself. And, you know, where there is hunger, there's sickness. And a typhoid epidemic sweeps through Mardin at this time. It kills his little sister later that same year. And as heartbreaking as that loss is, there is something worse in this poor man's young life. And he writes about it later in his memoir. He says, you know, the epidemic was so severe that no burial service could be arranged for my sister. And at last, my Aunt Lucia found two men who agreed to take the body away for burial. And I apologize to my readers for not sparing them. But I do remember, to my horror, when Aunt Lucia later revealed to me these men had not taken away my little sister's body to bury it, but for another purpose. All I can say is Mardin was starving at the time. And those stories of cannibalization during those massacres, they weren't unusual, they weren't unique. What he and his family were going through, it wasn't a singular experience. So, you know, with this sort of suggestion of cannibalism and these absolutely demonstrative horrors going on around him, his family just decide they can't stay anymore. They have to get to Syria and Karsh at this time. You know, they've stuck it out in their home, in their lands, until he's about 14 years old. So he packs A sketchbook in his bag, and he and his family are packed off with all they can carry.
- [16:38]
William Dalrymple
This is actually specifically 1922, which is a second wave of this. What happens in 1922 is that the Treaty of Sevres has given the French a chunk of the land just to the south of Mardin. And meanwhile, the Greeks have invaded Anatolia in 1922 and are then being driven back. So this is the same year as the episode we did on the Fire of Smyrna, and there's a second wave of Christians that leave at this time. I again interviewed refugees from these columns who are still alive in Aleppo in the days when Aleppo was still up and running before the civil war. And there are entire churches of survivors and their families from the second series of deportations and exoduses. As in 1915, you get these pathetic caravans of refugees with no possessions streaming through the empty desert, starving and short of water. And many of those end up, as Kashi's family did, in Aleppo. Aleppo is later under the French, so for both those reasons, it becomes a refuge for the Christians and is today the biggest Christian town, I think, in the entire Middle East.
- [17:52]
Anita Anand
But it wasn't. You know, it almost didn't happen. You know, he almost didn't survive, like, just like many of the people that you interviewed who would have lost countless family members to these death marches, because at every single hamlet or village, there are people extracting prices, permission to go through. So he describes, it takes 29 days to complete this journey that should have just taken less than two days by train, but of course, they have to do it by foot. And they are robbed and stripped of just not dignity, but every penny, every coin, every piece of jewelry along the way. And there is this one moment which is just on the road to Syria, which is so awful and graphic. Just imagine this. So he's on the road and he says, I made a mistake that could have forfeited our freedom and actually much, much more. So they stop before this village, and the Turks are at this border between the village and their onward journey. So let's show you. We want to show you a river. Come and see this river. It's really. You've got to see this river. And they take this kid and a few others to see this river that is just full of decomposing bodies. You know, he says, you know, from its surface, protruded everywhere the bones of human beings, skulls, femurs, ribs. There could be no mistake. And so Karsh being, you know, the boy with the sketchbook, foolishly tries to sketch this, what he calls the last bitter landmark of my journey. And he says, of course, I couldn't foresee the consequences. When the Turks saw I was scribbling something, they set up a cry that I was a spy. And hearing the commotion, I hastily crumpled up the piece of paper and I threw it into a creek. Needless to say, the paper was recovered, and my father was confronted with it. In some manner, he managed to extricate us. What he said, why they listened, I don't know. But my mother told me it cost him a very last piece of silver coin. So, you know, they get to Syria, William. But almost didn't. And just imagine being that little boy, thinking, you're the reason I sat in.
- [20:05]
William Dalrymple
A circle in 1994 in the barren Hotel. The Mazloomians were another Armenian family who set up this extraordinary hotel, which Agatha Christie and T. Lawrence, all sorts of people, stayed in. And they gathered the survivors for me from this march. And I interviewed them in 1994. Every one of them will now be dead. But they all told these terrifying stories, and one or other thing had saved them. One was a cobbler that the Ottomans needed because they needed boots. One was a friend of the governor, had done him a favor in early life, and so on and so forth. And most of them were led out beyond this into what was like a very primitive death camp in the desert outside Aleppo, where they were ridden down by cavalry. But handfuls of survivors continued in Aleppo until 1922, when the French came, and they were safe. And this is Kash's story.
- [21:08]
Anita Anand
You can imagine the kind of pressure on this family that has already been living in absolutely unthinkable, dire peril that they reach Syria and they start trying to scrape together some kind of a life that, you know, they've left everything. And many of the Armenian refugees in Aleppo are doing the same thing. But because Karsh has come so close to death, because they've seen a little girl from their family, his own sister, sort of die and taken away then, and the unthinkable happening to that poor little body, they decide that the best thing they can do is send Karsh away somewhere safer, somewhere he might be able to earn money, maybe send something back home to help the family. And one of his uncles who'd left in 1890 for Canada, had set up a little photo studio in Ottawa, and he was doing fairly well. It was all right. He was making a living. He was sending a little bit of cash home. And it was decided that Kash should go and join him. So they really push hard for months and scrape together the funds that would need to send little teenage Karsh to go and live with him. Now just imagine this is a traumatized boy, okay, who has seen the worst that humanity can do to other human beings, who is being sent to a country where he neither has language. He has one connection. He has no society, he has no family apart from this one uncle. And he sort of washes up in Canada with not one word of English as the clothes on his back in a tiny bag. But the resilience of this guy because he's still, you know, there's not one word in his memoirs of any kind of feel sorry for me. I kind of, you know, what's that word? Self pity. None at all. Because he sees this new world is going to be better, even if it's bad, than the horror that he's left behind. He feels reborn. And as he says in his memoirs, he will never go back to Turkey again. Join us after the break where we find out what this new life promises the young Karsh. So good, so good, so good. Score.
- [23:21]
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- [23:31]
Anita Anand
Because there's always something new.
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- [23:34]
Anita Anand
With that extra 5% off when I.
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- [23:47]
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- [24:12]
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- [24:44]
Anita Anand
Welcome back. So Kash has finally escaped that hellscape of the Armenian genocide and is working in Canada with his uncle, a man called Nakash. And Nakash's story is also tragic. I mean, he has lost every single member of his family in the violence that Karsh has just left behind. So he has no one, and Karsh only has him. And this man is really kind. He sort of realizes very quickly that this is a boy who has a huge talent and an eye for art. So he teaches him how to use a camera. And this is the first time that this kid who had a sketchbook until now and used to sort of do compositions in quick drawings, has this novel new machine. And he's a really quick study. And he begs his uncle, teach me everything, you know. He's particularly obsessed with lighting subjects because he wants them to look like paintings. And that will become a hallmark of his work for the rest of his life. And his uncle is, yeah, okay, you know, I'll teach you about lighting, but gosh, for God's sake, we've got to make money, okay? So it's all very well me teaching you how to light things and taking an hour over the lighting, but, you know, for God's sake, we just need to get them in and get them out and get them in and get them out. And the main income at that time for, you know, Nakash's studio is photographing soldiers and sailors. And so, you know, Karsh is sort of reluctantly, but, you know, he owes his uncle everything. He falls into line and he does these rather boring things that he's forced to do, but he's still, you know, in his own time. Just imagine, it's a man who's got freedom, but all he does is work. Either he works in the studio or he takes himself off to learn more about his craft. And he loves nature. So instead of sketching, he takes his camera out to all these sort of romantic, misty landscapes around Ottawa. And he takes countless, I mean, if I may say, rather boring pictures of trees. And, you know, this is all that he cares about morning, noon and night. He lives and breathes his camera and his lighting. And his uncle, actually, you know, because he loves this kid so much, you know, really respects this kid enters one of his pictures, even though Karsh doesn't know it, into a competition and Karsh wins. And it becomes.
- [26:57]
William Dalrymple
You might be rather underplaying his nice pictures of trees if they win all these prizes. I've never seen a bad Karsh photograph. I think he's a bit of a.
- [27:06]
Anita Anand
Have you seen the pictures of trees? I mean, they're trees.
- [27:10]
William Dalrymple
I've taken many pictures of trees myself.
- [27:12]
Anita Anand
Trees. So anyway, it does become very clear to Uncle Nakash when He sees that his nephew's won this prize that he can't teach him anymore. And there is something bursting to get out of this boy. So good on him. Good on Uncle Nakash, who does need him in the studio, could really do with his help to make some money. But he says, okay, I'm going to send you away. There is this expat community in Canada and America who've managed to get out. So he manages to persuade this notable photographer in Boston to take him under his wing. And that man is John H Garrow, who has also lost his entire family in the Ottoman Empire.
- [27:54]
William Dalrymple
Also Armenian.
- [27:55]
Anita Anand
Yeah, also Armenian, yeah. And Garrow is a name. Garrow is, you know, a man people recognize. And he does the kind of thing that Karsh is just desperate to learn, which is taking a photograph and looking beyond what the person wants to show you. And Garo as well, is sort of like, you know, almost his spirit animal, because, I mean, he's. He's sort of this gorgeously avuncular character. If you imagine, if you watch the Wombles ever Uncle Bulgaria. Yeah. He's. He's cuddly and he's, you know, sort of ostentatiously dressed and he has these cravats and, you know, a very actually deeply kind face. And he also thinks like a painter, which is so good for Karsh. He thinks like a painter. He had been a painter before becoming a photographer and he totally understands his young ward's obsession with light. So he teaches him everything that he knows about lighting, about positioning a subject, about getting an insight into who they are as you take the picture. And the one. You know, the best thing that he teaches Karsh is that chat is all chat. Yeah. And. Yeah, is everything. Is everything. Is everything to a photographer. That's. That's what there's a lovely to do.
- [29:10]
William Dalrymple
Quote in Karsh's memoir. He says one of Garo's great gifts was his ability to fascinate, to enchant the subject to such an extent that the latter was really unaware of the act of photography. It was not a question of having him hold an artificial pose, which is fatiguing and can be deceitful. When Garrow held the bulb behind his back, the subject's interest centred on whatever Garo focused it upon. Some abstract topic, perhaps, or something in the studio, but something meaningful. A floral arrangement, a piece of tapestry. And when he raised his finger, he said, hold. But not in an attention creating way, just suspending time for a few instances. It was like cooking certain dishes Slowly. Perfection in cooking is not always achieved with a high burner. It's a lovely quote.
- [29:55]
Anita Anand
Isn't that lovely?
- [29:55]
William Dalrymple
Yeah, I love it.
- [29:56]
Anita Anand
Isn't that such a great, great thing? But too soon, you know, he's living his absolute best life. You know, he's never been as happy, not since, you know, sort of eating the crystallized sugar and the green leaves back in Mardin. And he's so happy. But it's time to go back to Ottawa because, as he says, there was no quota for Armenians in America, so he doesn't have permission to stay. So he takes all the learning and he goes back to his uncle's studio. Poor Nakash, who's sort of like, okay, when you're coming back, I really need. I could do with some help. You know, we've got floors to sweep and, you know, sort of sailors and soldiers to photograph you coming back. It is a really, again, amazing thing about Karsh because he sees gold in what many people see as trash. So, I mean, I don't know, when I worked as a local reporter, the last thing you wanted to be sent on, you knew you'd annoyed the editor if you were sent to do something to do with the local council, really. Oh, okay. There's a sort of a. I don't. Some motion to be passed on bin collection. Oh, you can go, Anita, you're the youngest and disposable. So, you know, he actually volunteers to go to these ostensibly really boring political conferences that take place in Ottawa towards a major city. And he does this thing that, you know, poor Nakash is just looking at him going, what are you doing? Just take the bloody camera. But no, he's got to take his lights. He goes sort of hulking, all of this stuff to these really very long, dull, boring events. But it pays off because there is this Imperial Economic Conference that takes place in 1932, and Karsh manages to get this amazing, lovely photograph of Neville Chamberlain and Sean o', Casey, the playwright who's come in with the Irish delegation. And it's through just sort of the charm that he's learned from his uncle and also, you know, from his mentor, that he has the courage, even though English is faltering. You know, he's just learnt English.
- [32:04]
William Dalrymple
And he falls in love at this time with a tall and glamorous actress called Solange Gaultier. And through this girl who is an actress, he gains entry to the world of theater and begins taking pictures of visiting theater companies. And this, again, is more into the sort of storytelling as well. As the portraiture for which he will become famous later in life.
- [32:27]
Anita Anand
I mean, it's almost like, you know, everything in his life now is pointing him into a certain direction. And this sort of crossover between art and politics is eventually going to lead to the photograph that's going to launch him as Karsh that we know today. And it is because there is a man who straddles those two worlds. You know him because we've done a bonus episode on him. John Buchan. Yes. AKA Lord Tweedsmoore, is a very important man in Canada in Ottawa at this time. And if you want to hear that one, by the way. Yeah, yeah, he is, he is the Governor General. But if you want to hear the whole episode that we did on, on Buchan, become a member of the Empire Club. EmpirePoduk.com is where you can join EmpirePoduk.com it is an absolutely. Murray, our favorite Murray, an amazing guest, Murray Pittock. Fabulous, fabulous episode of Murray Pittock on John Buchan, author of the 39 steps. Anyway, so between 35 and 40, John Buchan, aka First Baron Tweedsmuir, serves as Governor General of Canada, as Willi says. And he's actually been to a number of these arts and drama festivals. He loves the arts. And he notices Karsh has been taking photographs of the actors and the dancers and he notices his work, you know, for its beauty. And so he sort of says, who's this dude? Who's this guy? And the name comes back, oh, it's Karsh. He's going out with one of the actresses, Solange. We'll get his details from Solange. And he asks Karsh to come and take his photograph. And it's nerve wracking at first, isn't it Willy? I mean, it's, you know, this is a really important man, Governor General asking to see you and you to come and take a photograph.
- [34:14]
William Dalrymple
One of the great photographs, which is the famous photograph of John Buchan in full native Canadian feather headdress. When we were doing the Buchan episode and I was Google imaging images to tweet the episode out, this of course was the first one that we all fell on because it's by far the most striking picture ever taken of Buchan. And it turns out it's not just you and me, Anita, who liked this image, it was a favorite of the Queen. And the young Queen Elizabeth saw this and asked for a copy, which is there apparently in Buckingham Palace. So this is Karsh's first entry into this whole wider world.
- [34:56]
Anita Anand
It gets taken it gets snapped in 1936. Chief Buchan portrait. But that year, of course, was gonna ring all sorts of bells because it is that year that the world is heading towards war. And you get this sort of, you know, as a build up towards World War II is occurring, suddenly world leaders are on the move and there are intense meetings taking place. You know, trying, you know, sort of horse trading. Will you come in if we do this? Will you do this? And all eyes are on America and Franklin D. Roosevelt, who, if you heard our Yalta conference episodes, you know, was really reluctant to get involved in the war. Completely reluctant. But there are. That doesn't stop others lobbying him. So in 1936, FDR makes a trip to Canada. He's the first American president in office to do it. The press corps, of course, is out in.
- [35:45]
William Dalrymple
First American president to visit Canada.
- [35:49]
Anita Anand
Unexpected, isn't it? And, well, they're just next door, aren't they?
- [35:53]
William Dalrymple
Yeah, you'd have thought they pop over.
- [35:55]
Anita Anand
A phone call would suffice. The press, of course, you know, you think you get penned back if you're a member of the press at these things with great dignitaries. But Karsh, because he's done the graft and he's done all these sort of local politics and, you know, sort of the state politics things. He knows people. And he also, because John Buchan loves him, has become quite friendly with the staff who wait on Buchan. And so, you know, he's sort of looking at them with these puppy dog eyes like, what the hell am I meant to do? I haven't even got my lights. I really need my lights. What am I meant to do in the press pen? And so one of them says, come over here, come over here. I'll take you to a side room and I just need you to be patient, okay? Just wait for a couple of hours. It'll be worth it. So Karsh is a completely patient man. He has no idea if he's going to get anything at all. But he sets off all his lights and he's waiting. And finally you have Mackenzie King, the Prime Minister of Canada and his mate, Lord Tweedsmill. John Buchan and Roosevelt walk in and they're sort of ushered towards the photographer. But it's a dreadful photo because fdr, we know, lived a lot of his life in horrible undisclosed pain. He didn't tell anyone about it, is stiff and he's sort of grumpy and people hate having their photographs taken where there are important things to talk about. But Karsh has learned from His Garrow, you know, his great inspiration. You just wait until they're not thinking about the photograph. So he pretends to be packing up. He tells his story so beautifully, starts packing up, making a lot of noise about packing up and just leaving them to talk as if he's not there. And Buchan, who is this great storyteller, he loves telling sort of these sort of long tall stories, is going into something. Yes. And he starts sort of launching into a particularly long and interesting one that's making people laugh and stuff. And he takes these pictures of the three powers together. Roosevelt on his feet, Mackenzie King, and these very important talks at a pivotal moment. And the background of the sky is. It's not the sky. I think it's one of. It's his background. But it looks like a moody sky. It's one of these things that Karsh has left up. And the lighting is perfect and it is such a dramatic picture. It looks like a still from a movie. And that that photo goes around the world, you know, it's a big photo for Kush and it is all leading up to the picture which is coming up. So give us some background to what's going on in the world at this time. We're talking now. December 1941.
- [38:33]
William Dalrymple
1941. This is the week after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Winston Churchill, who has been trying for the whole of the previous year to get America involved in the war, suddenly realizes this is the moment to push because after Pearl Harbor, America is furious and wanting revenge. And Winston Churchill is on a whistle stop tour of America and Canada. And Karsh phones the Canadian Prime Minister's office and asks if there's any chance that he might take a portrait of Churchill while he was in Ottawa. Churchill famously mercurial when it came to posing photographs, but a plan was hatched. Anita?
- [39:16]
Anita Anand
Yeah, so again, this is, you know, just who you know and who you've been nice to on your way up. So everybody listening to this, especially you youngins, just learn something from this, you know, just never be grand. Always talk to everybody because now he knows everyone. He's done the groundwork. So he sets up in the speaker's chamber the day before because, you know, who knows how the talks are going to go, how long Churchill's going to stay in? Is anyone going to be in the mood to have a photo taken if these talks don't go well? Everything depends on this. The world is at war. So he sets up, he puts his lights, lights, lights. He puts his lights in place and he Sort of talks to the steward of the House of Commons. He says, can you just be Churchill for a minute? Sort of sits in there, so lights it all. So all he needs is literally two seconds for Churchill to sit in this spot and dunk. Done. And it's Mackenzie King himself, who, you know, loves what Karsh did with the FDR picture, kind of cons Churchill into coming into the chamber. He's sort of saying, let me show you around our beautiful speaker's chamber. Oh.
- [40:21]
William Dalrymple
There is my friend.
- [40:22]
Anita Anand
Photographer.
- [40:23]
William Dalrymple
Exactly.
- [40:24]
Anita Anand
He's my friend, the photographer. And so, you know, there's like a massive floodlight that Karsh flicks on because he's overdone it a bit with the lighting.
- [40:32]
William Dalrymple
Hasn't been in on this at all, and says, what's this? What's this?
- [40:35]
Anita Anand
Yeah, yeah. He's furious. And nobody wants to tell him that this is, you know, basically this has all been planned and he's been shanghaied in for a photo for Karsh. So Karsh steps forward because everyone's looking a bit horrified and says, sir, I hope I'll be fortunate enough to make a portrait of you worthy of this historic occasion. And Churchill. Not in the mood at all, is he?
- [40:56]
William Dalrymple
Churchill's not having any of it. So Churchill is not in the mood for this at all, and says, why was I not told? And throws away his old cigar and lits an earth. Let another one muttering, you may take one. Making it clear that he was neither amused nor had the time. And, well, we only have Karsh's version of this. But very grudgingly, he walks up and he says, will you? Motioning to the ashtray, in other words, trying to get Churchill to throw the.
- [41:21]
Anita Anand
Take it out of his mouth.
- [41:22]
William Dalrymple
Take it out of his mouth.
- [41:23]
Anita Anand
But Churchill won't do it. He will not do it. So, you know, he sort of does this. He takes one out and sort of stubbornly stabs it, then puts another one in his math. It's like, oh, God. Karsha's like, oh, I've got sec. This is. He's gonna go. He's gonna leave. It's every photographer's worst nightmare that your subject just storms out and you're left with nothing. So he goes back to his camera. He says, okay, fine, not a problem, sir. You know, it's just always deferential. Goes back, starts tinkering away. When he's absolutely sure everything is fine, he walks up to him very swiftly and pulls a cigar out of his mouth. And then he says, forgive me, and then he takes that photo. And the photo you see on your five pound notes, glowering, Churchill, what the hell happened to my cigar? It's basically the photo. What?
- [42:07]
William Dalrymple
Who is this impertinent young man that's seized by it?
- [42:10]
Anita Anand
How dare you? Yeah, where's my cigar? But it is that image of, like, sort of ferocity and defiance and like Churchill sort of rearing himself up, that becomes the image of Churchill that people will go to whenever they want to talk about, you know, rallying morale among the Brits or showing the power of, you know, Britain almost standing alone against the Nazi threat. And actually, Churchill calms down pretty quickly. I think he's sort of, quite, quite amused because he says, you may take a second. He's just smiling. And that photo, never used. It's the one where the thing is plucked out of his mouth. That's the one that's.
- [42:53]
William Dalrymple
Is there a smiley one? I haven't seen the other. The other shots.
- [42:55]
Anita Anand
No, Kash just talks about it. He just says, you know, he's sort of. So. He's so sort of amused that he does a smiley one, but I haven't seen it if it's out there.
- [43:05]
William Dalrymple
And then he actually says the words. You can make even a roaring lion stand still to be photographed. And that is why it's called the Rory Lion Penograph. Google it now, anyone, if you're listening to this.
- [43:17]
Anita Anand
Yep, yes, dude. It's been on a Canadian postage stamp, like I say, the five pound note, since 2016. And it is the absolute opening of the world to Karsh, who then sort of takes, you know, sort of pictures, like some of the really iconic pictures we've talked about, but just do Google his name. Other search engines are available, but do just have a look, but, you know, sort of. And he writes these tiny little vignettes about people, like, lovely conversations. He does a very, very young Elizabeth Taylor who's just a child, and he knows. He just sort of sees that she's going to be this huge actress before anybody else does, and they get on so well. And he chirps on her level. And, you know, when she does become famous, she sort of comes bounding up to him, Gosh, gosh, how lovely to see you. I've named my little puppy dog after you. You know, he has conversations about, you know, religion and science and the clash between the two with Einstein. I mean, this is a man.
- [44:17]
William Dalrymple
Tell us about the Einstein photograph. Yes. How's that? Because that's, again, one of the most famous images, the famous picture Of Einstein.
- [44:23]
Anita Anand
It is the famous picture of Einstein. Not the one with the tongue out. It's not that one. It's another one. And it's the more serious, the other one. The other Einstein picture. Well, again, he sort of. Sort of sets up. And Einstein again, is not sort of a man who even thinks about his image particularly, you know, he's got his hands clasped in front of him.
- [44:43]
William Dalrymple
Einstein in a woolly knit. Again, he likes woolly knit, same as the Hemingway photograph, with hair all over the place, big bushy moustache. But again, this lighting is always so good with Karsch and these silvery tones. I don't know what he gets, what the process he's using to get it, but they are. They're just absolutely perfect photographs. Perfect portraits.
- [45:04]
Anita Anand
Yeah, they're gorgeous. And we just sort of look at this sort of rather soulful expression, but natural, this softness about Einstein, you know, not posed. And it's because they're having this conversation about, but what about God, Albert. But what about, you know, sort of the bad things, people. Well, what about. They're having this really long and interesting conversation. He also, you know, sort of gives a few things away about some of his subjects. He hated George Bernard Shaw, who sounds like a pretty monstrous man, sort of making light of things like, you know, the Armenian genocide and stuff. You know, some really distasteful jokes. But Karsh, again, is just such a professional. He takes a fabulous photo of the man who he didn't like, which is very depressing to hear about George Bonacheur talking like that. Don't think of him that way at all.
- [45:50]
William Dalrymple
Now tell us the story about the reaction of the Republic, Armenia and to his death.
- [45:58]
Anita Anand
Well, let me tell you about his death. He dies in 2002, and he's in Boston when he dies. He has complications after surgery. And the papers, of course, mark his passing as an end of an epoch. The Economist, I think, puts it really well, saying for half a century, perhaps the greatest portrait photographer in the monumental manner is how they put it. I mean, you were asking about the Modern Republic of Armenia, which was only established in 1991, but in memory of one of their greatest sons and the debt that he and they owe Canada in taking Karsh and so many others in. They present a bust of Ka and it stands in front of Le Chateau Laurier in Ottawa. It's a huge Gothic building. It's Tiffany glass windows. It's, you know, it's really. It's beautiful and it's. It's big and it's sort of statuesque like all of his photographs were really. But it's sort of also a reminder that he never forgot his Armenian roots. So it's a gift from Armenian.
- [47:00]
William Dalrymple
I never knew who's Armenian. I never knew that beginning part of his story. Absolutely fascinating photographer I've long admired and I absolutely love his work. But I had no idea he was from the Armenian background and survivor of the genocide. Extraordinary.
- [47:15]
Anita Anand
Yeah. And like I say, not a man who asks for any self pity about it. And probably the reason you didn't know is he didn't talk about it. He wrote about it very briefly in his memoirs. And you have to do a lot of digging around to find out what happened to his family and what was going on in, you know, Marden and the surrounding areas at the time. And this horror of a story pops out. Speaking of horrors of stories, next on Empire, we're going to look at a very different type of photographer. Oh God, I love this woman. If you love a strong woman, you're going to love this one as much as I do. Alice Seeley Harris is her name. She bore witness to the horrors in the Congo. That's a subject we've discussed a lot in our Writers of Empire series with Maya Jasanoff. And she used her camera to bring down a king.
- [48:03]
William Dalrymple
One last story, slightly more optimistic note to end on after all these horrors, I went back to Diabuka, the province that Ka was from last year. And in 1994 when I was writing about the genocide, I had met one of the last descendants and thought that it was all over for the Armenians of Diabuka. Last year I went back and the church has reopened. It's been restored, beautifully restored, with wonderful new icons and beautiful gilt woodwork. And the Armenian community, there's 50 left in Diabuka and they now make their own wine and they sell it. They have a very nice little cafe. And the community has just managed to re establish itself since my time there covering the genocide. So it's not a complete story of destruction and despair. The Armenian community have survived in that area.
- [49:05]
Anita Anand
Well, I'm glad. I'm glad it's a more optimistic note than we ended the Hoffman episode on. Thank you for that. Till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Anand and goodbye.
- [49:16]
William Dalrymple
From me, William Durumple.
- [49:25]
Anita Anand
Limu Emu.
- [49:28]
William Dalrymple
Here we have the Limu Imu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu.
- [49:44]
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William Dalrymple
Cut the camera. They see us.
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William Dalrymple
Excludes Massachusetts.
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