Empire: World History – Episode 333: Bronze Age Apocalypse: The Fall of Troy (Ep 2) Date: February 12, 2026
Hosts: William Dalrymple & Anita Anand
Special Guest: Stephen Fry

Episode Overview

This episode of Empire takes listeners on an exploration of the real history and mythological legacy of the Trojan War. Hosts William Dalrymple and Anita Anand, joined by the celebrated storyteller and classicist Stephen Fry, delve into the intricate layers underlying Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey, examining the archaeology, oral traditions, and the catastrophic Bronze Age collapse that turned mighty palaces into ruins. Together, they dissect the interplay of myth and fact, the mechanics of oral history, and why Homer’s tales still resonate with and shape our world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Homer’s Legacy and the Homeric Revival (01:57)

• The episode opens by reflecting on the current “Homeric revival” in popular culture and literature (“The Odyssey is about to hit our screens, and Stephen Fry's retelling... is at the top of the bestseller list.” [01:57])
• Main Question: "How much of the story in the Iliad and the Odyssey has a basis in reality?"

2. Story, Memory, and Oral Tradition (03:21–14:01)

• The collapse of the Bronze Age saw technological and societal regression, yet stories endured as a cultural memory.
• Stephen Fry discusses his passion for Homer and describes the Greek concept of “kleos” (glory) and how oral tradition preserved memories over centuries.
  • “A mortal can almost become immortal in memory by achieving this honor.” (Stephen Fry, [05:47])
• Examples from India and other cultures show how epic poetry and genealogies are transmitted orally, creating a living, communal memory.
  • “In the villages outside this town, there are still oral poets who know epics by heart.” (Dalrymple, [10:02])
  • Milman Parry’s work with Yugoslavian bards links Homeric poetry to living traditions.

3. Was Homer One Man? The Nature of Epic Authorship (11:03)

• The debate over Homer as a single author versus a collective tradition is unpacked.
  • “For many years it was assumed that there was a man called Homer... but Milman Parry… found this living tradition of bards… who recited long poems from memory and improvised and added new parts...” (Fry, [11:19–12:29])
• Oral epithets (“rosy-fingered dawn,” “swift-footed Achilles”) and genealogical recitations served as mnemonic devices.

4. Fact, Fantasy, & The Rediscovery of Troy (18:02–25:04)

• The notion that Greek myth is fantasy dominated Western thought until the late 19th century.
• Heinrich Schliemann’s excavation at Hisarlik confirmed Troy’s existence, revolutionizing the perception of Homeric tales.
  • “He did more damage to Troy than the Greeks.” (Fry, on Schliemann’s methods [21:31])
• The “layer cake” of Troy emerges: multiple cities superimposed at the same site, with “Troy 7A” most likely linked to the legendary war ([24:13]).

5. Troy’s International Context (07:49–08:30; 24:27–25:10)

• The interconnectedness of Mycenae, Troy, Egypt, and the Hittites illustrates the advanced but fragile nature of Bronze Age civilization.
• The Trojans likely spoke a Luwian language, not Greek ([25:04]).

6. The Mythic Narrative: Events & Personalities (27:00–31:36)

• Stephen Fry’s vivid “Reader’s Digest” version of the Trojan saga:
  • The Judgment of Paris ([27:00–28:20])
  • Abduction of Helen, sacrifice of Iphigenia ([28:57–31:00])
  • Agamemnon’s flawed kingship, the beginnings of enmity with Achilles
  • The curse and tragedy at the heart of the Atreid family
• Notable moment: Anita Anand’s exasperation with Agamemnon: “We are going to get to the man who boils my blood, Agamemnon…” ([26:28])

7. History Beneath the Myth (33:42–37:20)

• Paired archaeological and textual evidence: arrowheads, burn layers, and Linear B tablets suggest conflict at Troy and support the reality of Mycenean civilization.
• Linear B, decoded by Michael Ventris, reveals a bureaucratic Greek language used for administrative records—not for epic poetry.
  • “An empire, yes, is led by alpha males and brilliant plotters and great females... but without the civil servants, without the supply chains…” (Fry, [36:47])

8. Collapse & Melancholy in Epic Poetry (38:11–39:49)

• Homer conveys a sense of melancholy and futility at the end of an era.
  • “There’s regret at the slaughter and the sense of its uselessness and perhaps the emptiness of honor, male honour and all that it stood for.” (Fry, [38:46])

9. The Trojan Horse: Myth or Mechanism? (40:16–44:52)

• Debate over the Trojan Horse’s literal existence; possible metaphoric explanations (earthquake, siege engine).
  • “Warriors don't win wars. Smarts win wars... He [Odysseus] wins with his brain.” (Fry, [40:29])
• The Greeks shocked even the gods with their vengeful violence in Troy’s sack.

10. Parallels With Indian Epic and Mythic Traditions (45:41–46:52)

• Reflecting on similarities/differences between Greek and Indian epic traditions—ambiguity, flawed heroes, complex endings.
• Fry humbly defers on deeper analysis, noting, “It would be merely the act of someone having to research and... my blood isn’t in it, if you see what I mean.” ([46:17])

11. Homer’s Relevance Today (46:54–51:36)

• Why keep reading Homer? For “tender humanity,” narrative power, and the cautionary tale of civilizations’ fragility.
  • “Perhaps one of the most beautiful scenes in all literature is after Achilles has dragged Hector’s body... Priam... grasps his knees and begs for the body of his son. And Achilles weeps and gives it to him. And it’s just an extraordinary scene.” (Fry, [48:03])
• On glory and futility: Achilles’ choice and his ultimate rejection of “kleos” in the underworld ([50:25])
• “The speed with which they can disappear and the Greek obsession with arrogance, with hubris... Agamemnon ends up being stabbed in the bath and Achilles himself is just killed and ends up in the underworld.” (Fry, [49:21])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A mortal can almost become immortal in memory by achieving this honor.” (Stephen Fry, [05:47])
• “He did more damage to Troy than the Greeks.” (Stephen Fry on Schliemann’s excavation, [21:31])
• “Warriors don't win wars. Smarts win wars. There are two gods of war in Greece… And her favorite human… is Odysseus, the crafty king of Ithaca.” (Fry, [40:29])
• “Perhaps one of the most beautiful scenes in all literature is… Priam… beg[ging] for the body of his son. And Achilles weeps and gives it to him.” (Fry, [48:03])
• “There is regret at the slaughter and the sense of its uselessness and perhaps the emptiness of honor.” (Fry, [38:46])
• “You fire off the bureaucrats, you will die out.” (Anita Anand, [36:47])
• “It’s Inland Revenue versus poetry.” (Anand, [37:20])

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:57] – Introduction: Homer’s return to popular culture and episode theme
• [03:21] – Stephen Fry’s introduction and the importance of oral tradition
• [11:19] – The “one-man Homer” debate and oral poetry techniques
• [18:02] – The rediscovery of Troy & the impact on Western historical beliefs
• [27:00] – “Reader’s Digest” retelling of the Trojan War myth (Judgment of Paris, Helen, etc.)
• [33:42] – Archaeological evidence for the war and Mycenae
• [36:47] – The deciphering of Linear B and the role of bureaucracy
• [40:29] – The Trojan Horse as metaphor for brains vs. brawn
• [46:54] – Why Homer remains relevant and enduring
• [48:03] – Fry’s favorite scene: Priam and Achilles
• [49:21] – On hubris, collapse, and the fragility of empire

Tone and Style

The episode is engaging, conversational, and learned, moving fluidly between myth, academic theory, humor, and contemporary resonance. Stephen Fry provides wit, scholarly insight, and moving storytelling, while the hosts balance deep dives with playful asides.

Conclusion

This episode elegantly bridges myth, archaeology, and human nature, demonstrating why the story of Troy continues to enthrall audiences, scholars, and readers millennia after bronze swords and boar-tusk helmets faded into ruin. The enduring lessons, captivating storytelling, and sharp contemporary relevance—especially in light of recent Homeric revivals—make a compelling case for revisiting the ancient world, with all its grandeur, tragedy, and complexity.

Next episode: “Going Deeper into Homer” with Simon Goldhill.