Empire: World History Podcast—Ep 344
Chairman Mao: The Great Leap Forward (Ep 5)
Released: March 24, 2026
Hosts: William Dalrymple (A), Anita Anand (B)
Guest: Professor Rana Mitter (C), Harvard Kennedy School
Episode Overview
This episode dives into the harrowing story of the Great Leap Forward, Mao Zedong’s disastrous attempt at rapid industrialization and collectivization in China from the late 1950s into the early 1960s. William, Anita, and Rana dissect Mao’s power plays both domestically and internationally—with chilling detail given to the catastrophic famine that followed. The episode also highlights how China’s path diverged from India’s during the same period, the influence of Cold War dynamics, and the seeds sown for later events like the Cultural Revolution.
Key Themes & Discussion Points
1. Setting the Stage: Mao, the Soviets, and the Non-Western World
- Tension with Khrushchev: Mao feels slighted and unimpressed by Khrushchev, seeing himself as Stalin’s true heir and the natural leader of the global communist movement.
- Mind Games and Symbolism: Mao employs psychological tactics both at home and abroad, such as the famous “swimming pool incident” with Khrushchev (03:51).
“Mao decided they should spend at least some of their discussion in the swimming pool…Khrushchev, it seems, was not [a good swimmer]. So he had to sort of bob around at the edge…while Mao is sort of doing lengths up and down and lecturing him on how he, Mao, is the real spirit of socialism.” — Professor Rana Mitter (04:00)
- China as Leader of the ‘Global South’: After being sidelined by the West internationally (excluded from the UN etc.), Mao pivots to become a spokesman for newly decolonizing Asia and Africa—most notably at Bandung in 1955 (08:53).
2. The Great Leap Forward: Vision, Methods, and Madness
- Ambitious—But Deadly—Targets: Mao’s drive to surpass Britain in industrial output by any means—including at horrific human cost.
“At the Wuchang conference in 1950, he’s talking to his inner circle and he says, working like this, half of China may well have to die. …And this is a price he’s completely willing to pay.” — Anita Anand (15:02)
- Mass Collectivization and Useless Steel: In their rush to meet quotas, people melt down useful railings to make “turds of steel”—substandard metal, virtually useless (17:13).
- Mao’s War on Nature: Theories from Soviet Lysenkoism inform bizarre, destructive agricultural practices.
“If you plant seeds too close to each other, they won’t sprout…You’ll be shocked, shocked to hear that this socialist agriculture did not in fact lead to a much richer crop, but actually just devastating crop failures.” — Mitter (19:23)
- The Four Pests Campaign: An infamous campaign to exterminate sparrows (along with rats, flies, mosquitoes), leading to ecological disaster and pest outbreaks (20:55).
“It’s an estimated 1.1 to 2 billion sparrows fall out of the sky…And then you have these terrible locusts and plagues of insects who eat things.” — Anand (22:11)
3. Catastrophe Unfolds: Famine and Fatal Denial
- The Greatest Famine in History: The Great Leap Forward leads to between 30–50 million excess deaths (26:46, 27:06).
“The Great Leap Forward is one of the most catastrophic events really in human history, and it’s caused by a massive miscalculation…” — Mitter (23:10)
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Falsified Data—’Chinese Accountancy’: Party officials, terrified of punishment, falsify production numbers, enabling continued agricultural exports—while people at home starve (23:10, 25:10).
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Suppression of Truth: When Peng Dehuai, a respected military leader, raises the famine at the 1959 Lushan Conference, he is swiftly purged (25:45).
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Historical Erasure: There are no known contemporary photos of the famine, aiding the Party’s ongoing denial (28:48).
“Unlike the Cultural Revolution and unlike many other famines around the world…there are no photographs we know of of people starving during the Great Leap Forward.” — Mitter (28:48)
4. Indo-Chinese Rivalry & The 1962 Border War
- Diverging Legacies: The episode contrasts Mao’s radicalism with India’s Nehruvian gradualism and their different roles at Bandung and beyond (10:58–12:08).
- 1962 Sino-Indian War: Despite post-famine turmoil, Mao launches a brief but bruising border war against India—a trauma for Indians, ignored in China (30:10–32:55).
“I think one of the things that more generally defines the relationship between India and China is that India worries about China a great deal and China really doesn’t think about India all that much.” — Mitter (32:13)
- Tibet, Colonial Borders, and Ceasefire: The roots of border disputes traced to British colonial actions and China’s conquest of Tibet (34:30–35:48).
5. Prelude to Cultural Revolution: Paranoia and Propaganda
- Suppression & New Campaigns: Mao faces internal opposition as the Great Leap Forward fails, so he redirects hostility toward “rivals”—using ideological campaigns and the PLA (39:11).
- The Rustless Screw and Cult of Mao: Lei Feng (the “rustless screw”) becomes a model worker; the Little Red Book is distributed, signaling ideological conformity (40:01–40:25).
“Father is close, mother is close, but neither is as close as Chairman Mao.” — William Dalrymple (41:11)
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Attack on the Family: Party loyalty is prioritized over family ties; even children are mobilized as political weapons (41:16–43:09).
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Mao’s Public Image—The Yangtze Swim: Rumors of ill-health prompt Mao to stage a propaganda swim in the Yangtze, supposedly smashing world records to show his vigor (44:05–45:33).
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On Khrushchev and the Pool:
“I think Khrushchev was not crazy about having to be thrown into the chlorinated water while Mao basically lectured him while, you know, showing off his swimming skills.” — Mitter (04:38) -
On Mao’s Willingness to Sacrifice Lives:
“Working like this, half of China may well have to die…And this is a price he’s completely willing to pay.” — Anand (15:02) -
On Lysenkoist Agriculture:
“Under socialism the seeds will cooperate with each other and grow much more fully…Shocked, shocked to hear that this socialist agriculture did not in fact lead to a much richer crop…” — Mitter (19:23) -
On the Four Pests Campaign:
“To keep the sparrows airborne so they drop from exhaustion ... they keep on beating their wings, they can't find anywhere to land and eventually they die.” — Mitter (21:44) -
On the Famine’s Hidden Toll:
“There are no photographs that we know of of people starving during the Great Leap Forward.” — Mitter (28:48) -
On Sino-Indian Relations:
“India worries about China a great deal and China really doesn’t think about India all that much.” — Mitter (32:13) -
On Breaking Family Bonds:
“Father is close, mother is close, but neither is as close as Chairman Mao.” — Dalrymple (41:11) -
On Mao’s Propaganda Swim:
“They said he swam 15 kilometers…World record holder, you know, just crazy.” — Anand (44:53)
Important Timestamps
- 00:29: Introduction & Recap
- 03:51: The Swimming Pool Incident
- 08:53: China, India, and Bandung Conference
- 15:02: Mao’s disregard for human life—Wuchang Conference quote
- 17:13: “Turd steel” and useless industrial output
- 19:23 – 20:55: Sci-fi agriculture, war on nature, and the Four Pests
- 23:10: Famine begins—“Chinese accountancy” and lying officials
- 25:45: Peng Dehuai confronts Mao, gets purged
- 27:06: Estimated death toll (30 to 50 million)
- 28:48: Absence of famine photos and historical memory
- 30:10 – 32:55: The 1962 Sino-Indian War: memory vs. indifference
- 39:11: Suppression, socialist education campaigns, PLA and youth
- 40:01: Lei Feng, “rustless screw”, Little Red Book
- 41:11 – 43:09: Breaking family bonds, Party vs. family
- 44:05: Mao’s rumored ill-health and propaganda swim
- 45:33: Episode closes, teaser for Cultural Revolution next
Final Note
The episode underscores the chilling cost of unchecked power and ideological fanaticism, with shocking numbers, personal stories, and an unflinching look at the legacy of the Great Leap Forward. The groundwork is laid for the next episode, focusing on the Cultural Revolution.
Stay tuned for more in this gripping Mao miniseries.