Introducing... The Rest Is Classified

Summary

Empire Podcast Summary: Episode “Introducing... The Rest is Classified”

Release Date: November 27, 2024
Hosts: William Dalrymple and Anita Anand
Guest: Gordon Carrera
Podcast Featured: The Rest is Classified by Goalhanger

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1. Introduction to “The Rest is Classified”

In the premiere episode of "Empire," hosts William Dalrymple and Anita Anand introduce listeners to a compelling new podcast from Goalhanger titled "The Rest is Classified." This podcast delves into the intricate and often shadowy world of international diplomacy and espionage, uncovering brilliant yet obscure stories from history's murkiest corners.

Anita Anand describes the podcast as a series that "will tell you some of the most brilliant stories from some of the most murky corners of international diplomacy" (00:35).

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2. Hosts and Their Expertise

William Dalrymple and Anita Anand bring their extensive knowledge and passion for history and international affairs to the discussion, setting the stage for an in-depth exploration of the podcast's themes.

Anita Anand emphasizes the expertise of the podcast hosts:

“...hosted by former CIA analyst turned spy novelist David McCloskey and a friend of mine, the national security journalist Gordon Carrera...”
— Anita Anand (00:35)

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3. Overview of “The Rest is Classified” Content

Gordon Carrera, a national security journalist and co-host of "The Rest is Classified," outlines the podcast’s focus on espionage and secret operations throughout history. The series promises to cover a diverse range of topics, including:

• CIA Operations in Afghanistan Post-9/11
• Cold War Espionage in Moscow
• North Korean Cyber Heists
• Edward Snowden’s Revelations
• The 1953 Iranian Coup

Carreira explains, “We’re going to be looking at stories from the world of spies and secrets through the ages… including slightly crazy characters and historical consequences” (02:00).

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4. Spotlight on the 1953 Iranian Coup

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the 1953 Iranian coup d'état, orchestrated by the CIA and MI6 to overthrow Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh. The hosts explore the complexities and debates surrounding the extent of foreign intervention versus indigenous Iranian motives.

Anita Anand raises critical questions:

“…the CIA perhaps take more credit, ironically, than they deserve, for toppling a government?”
— Anita Anand (03:21)

William Dalrymple adds:

“There is a whole school of Iranian thought that the Iranians were” [...] “not just easily led by a CIA carrot.”
— William Dalrymple (03:42)

Gordon Carrera delves deeper into the coup's nuances:

“It wouldn’t have happened without some role for MI6 and the CIA, but it would be wrong to see it as simply imposed from the outside.”
— Gordon Carrera (04:00)

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5. Roles of CIA and MI6 in the Coup

The episode highlights the collaborative yet complex relationship between the CIA and MI6 during the coup. While MI6 had established networks in Iran, the CIA brought crucial financial resources and political influence necessary for the operation's success.

Gordon Carrera outlines the partnership:

“MI6 networks in Iran plus sort of the CIA's political heft and the money is a great microcosm of the relationship at the time.”
— Gordon Carrera (10:14)

David McCloskey, guest on the podcast, adds context about the CIA’s nascent experience:

“The CIA was founded in 1947... They learned all of the trade craft from the Brits.”
— David McCloskey (10:53)

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6. Key Figures: Kermit Roosevelt and Monty Woodhouse

The discussion introduces pivotal figures involved in the coup, particularly Kermit Roosevelt of the CIA and Monty Woodhouse of MI6.

Gordon Carrera provides insights into Kermit Roosevelt's character and actions:

“He was... an academic turned spy, part of an aristocratic American dynasty… underestimated yet bold and adventurous.”
— Gordon Carrera (13:31)

Anita Anand inquires about Monty Woodhouse:

“We talked about the Shah, but Kermit Roosevelt… give us an idea of…”
— Anita Anand (06:06)

Gordon Carrera elaborates on Monty Woodhouse’s role:

“Monty comes up with Operation Boot to get Mossadegh out… plays tennis undercover, exhibiting the quirky human side of spies.”
— Gordon Carrera (06:25)

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7. Humanizing the Spies: Fallibility and Personalities

A recurring theme is the humanization of intelligence operatives, showcasing their vulnerabilities and flawed personalities contrary to the often-idealized image of spies.

Gordon Carrera discusses the culture within the CIA:

“There’s a kind of bizarre culture at the time with drinking and singing.”
— Gordon Carrera (07:22)

William Dalrymple adds humorously:

“A Philby at the same sort of time is completely drunk as a lord in Beirut...”
— William Dalrymple (07:22)

Anita Anand reflects on the relatability of spies:

“They are entirely human and fallible. They do stupid things sometimes.”
— Anita Anand (07:59)

This portrayal demystifies espionage, presenting spies as complex individuals rather than infallible agents.

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8. Debunking Espionage Myths

The hosts strive to separate the myth from reality in intelligence work, challenging the glamorous portrayal seen in fiction and popular media.

Gordon Carrera states:

“There’s so much mythology around spies and intelligence work… we want to strip some of that away and actually look at the people and the real stories.”
— Gordon Carrera (07:59)

Anita Anand adds:

“As a treat for our listeners, we've got a five-minute clip from today's 'The Rest is Classified'.”
— Anita Anand (08:27)

This approach aims to provide authenticity and a grounded perspective on historical espionage activities.

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9. Notable Quotes and Anecdotes

Throughout the episode, several memorable quotes and anecdotes highlight the personalities involved and the intricate nature of espionage operations.

• Gordon Carrera on the CIA's self-perception:

  “CIA go around saying, hey, we can do this. We can do coups.”
  — Gordon Carrera (04:32)

• William Dalrymple humorously notes:

  “Never heard of it” in reference to a parish associated with Gordon Carrera.
  — William Dalrymple (01:14)

• Gordon Carrera on pigeons' historical roles:

  “Nothing is beyond a pigeon. They are the superheroes of history.”
  — Gordon Carrera (01:56)

These quotes enrich the narrative, offering both depth and levity to the historical discourse.

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10. Conclusion and Anticipation for Future Episodes

As the episode wraps up, the hosts express excitement for the upcoming stories in "The Rest is Classified," promising an engaging exploration of espionage history.

William Dalrymple concludes:

“This has completely up my street, but don't forget the pigeons.”
— William Dalrymple (08:34)

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe and stay tuned for more fascinating episodes that promise to unravel the complexities of historical espionage.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Anita Anand: “The CIA perhaps take more credit, ironically, than they deserve, for toppling a government?” (03:21)
• William Dalrymple: “There’s a whole school of Iranian thought that the Iranians were... not just easily led by a CIA carrot.” (03:42)
• Gordon Carrera: “It wouldn’t have happened without some role for MI6 and the CIA, but it would be wrong to see it as simply imposed from the outside.” (04:00)
• Gordon Carrera: “Nothing is beyond a pigeon. They are the superheroes of history.” (01:56)
• Anita Anand: “They are entirely human and fallible. They do stupid things sometimes.” (07:59)

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Timestamp Reference

For ease of navigation, here are key timestamps referenced in the summary:

• [00:29] – Introduction to "The Rest is Classified"
• [00:35] – Hosts and Expertise
• [02:00] – Overview of Podcast Content
• [03:21] – Discussion on CIA and MI6 Roles
• [03:42] – Iranian Agency Perspectives
• [04:00] – Complexity of the 1953 Coup
• [06:06] – Inquiry into Key Figures
• [07:22] – Culture within CIA
• [07:59] – Humanizing Spies
• [08:34] – Conclusion and Pigeons Mention
• [01:56] – Pigeons as Historical Spies

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“Empire” continues to explore the rise and fall of empires through insightful discussions with experts and historians, making history accessible and engaging for all listeners. "The Rest is Classified" episode provides a riveting glimpse into the clandestine operations that have shaped global power dynamics.

Transcript

[William Dalrymple]

If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter, Sign up to empire [e-mail].

[Anita]

Hello and welcome to Empire with Anita.

[William Dalrymple]

Arnan and me, William Durimpel.

[Anita]

Listen. Today we're here because we are going to tell you about a really very exciting new podcast from Goal Hanger. And it is called from the Stable. The rest is classified. It's going to tell you some of the most brilliant. It's kind of a strange thing to say, but brilliant stories from some of the most murky corners of international diplomacy. Delving into the world of espionage. It is Hosted by former CIA analyst turned spy novelist David McCloskey and a friend of mine, the national security journalist Gordon Carrera, who I always, I tell you, in the other parish, you know, the one that you like to mock so much that I work in.

[William Dalrymple]

What's that parish for that.

[Anita]

Yes, I know.

[William Dalrymple]

Never heard of it.

[Anita]

I know, just a small broadcasting outfit. But anytime Gordon walked into the studio, you knew that he was going to untangle a really completely knotted issue in a very simple way. And I never came away from talking to Gordon without learning something. So, Gordon, I mean, hang on, before.

[William Dalrymple]

You drop that, we have to say also about Gordon's other great claim to fame.

[Anita]

Feathers.

[William Dalrymple]

Feathers. Pigeons. Gordon is a fellow pigeon fancier that.

[Gordon Carrera]

We have in common. Willie, because I wrote a book about pigeons, I'm fascinated by their role, partly their role as spies of when they got used for kind of special operations in World War II.

[William Dalrymple]

Nothing is beyond a pigeon. Exactly.

[Gordon Carrera]

Nothing is beyond a pigeon. They are the superheroes of history, as.

[William Dalrymple]

I tell you, underrated by many, including my co host.

[Anita]

Can I just say, when you said nothing is beyond pigeons, I was going to ask, and I will now, apart from cats, because wasn't your entire pigeon population wiped out by Beeline?

[William Dalrymple]

Cruel Anita to point that, yes, I now have an empty pigeon coop.

[Anita]

I'm. No, I'm really very sorry. To.

[William Dalrymple]

The Delhi pigeon season is upon us and I will be heading to Old Delhi to the Jabba Masjid to buy some new Shirazis. My favorite.

[Anita]

Shall we talk about what Gordon's going to be doing? I mean, it's not.

[William Dalrymple]

They seem to be focusing on Gordon. Quite. Or indeed, the rest is classified.

[Gordon Carrera]

And the rest is classified is not just going to be about pigeons. I promise. We might get to them eventually. That is not. That's not the main focus of it. We're going to be looking at stories from the world of spies and secrets through the ages. Really, the kind of people at the heart of it, the slightly crazy characters, and also the, you know, the historical consequences, why it matters. We've got lined up episodes of everything from the CIA going into Afghanistan after 9, 11, Cold War espionage in Moscow, North Korean cyber heist, Edward Snowden, something more recent. So a bit of something for everyone who's fascinated by those spy stories. But we're starting with a subject which I know you both know about, which is the coup in Iran in 1953 that was orchestrated by the CIA and MI6, because it's just such a great story.

[Anita]

So, I mean, the central character in this, and you're quite right, we talked about this, but I'm desperate with Ali Ansari.

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah.

[Anita]

The man Mossadegh, who is such a divisive figure even now, was he, you know, falling foul of a very intricate plot by foreign services? Because, you know, William, we talked about this, didn't we, with Alianzari, that, you know, do the CIA perhaps take more credit, ironically, than they deserve, for toppling a government?

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah, because there's this argument, isn't there, whether the CIA, which claimed to have destroyed this man in his career. There is a whole school of Iranian thought that the Iranians were, well, shot of him and wanted rid of him. And they're not just easily led by a CIA carrot.

[Anita]

Well, and then the sort of modern interpretations rob them entirely of agency, as if, you know, they're just children.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, And I think it's a really interesting question. And one of the things we get to do is really drill down in that story about the coup and really look at what The CIA and MI6 were really up to. And it's. I mean, it's full of kind of crazy characters like Monty Woodhouse from MI6 and Kermit Roosevelt from the CIA, both of whom actually academics turned spies, which was something quite common at this time. And it involves kind of bundles of cash, secret meetings in disguise to see the Shah, acrobats, wrestlers, even a small cameo from the BBC, I should admit.

[Anita]

Oh, what have we done? What have we done now?

[Gordon Carrera]

Well, you find out. It's just a brief appearance, but they do play a role, actually. But it's a coup that's fascinating because it nearly fails and then it succeeds. And you're right, there is this question, you know, was it a brilliant piece of plotting by MI6 and the CIA, or was it something which was indigenous, which came out of Iranian Society. And I think the answer is really interesting because it is a little bit more complex, because it wouldn't have happened, I think, without some role for MI6 and the CIA, particularly the CIA. But it would be completely wrong to see it as something simply imposed from the outside. And when you look at the kind of the accounts of it and the histories of it, they're often colored by people who are trying to make a claim, you know, people who are trying to politically assert, you know, who was responsible and whether it was Iranian society and then looking back from 1979 or from today to try and kind of extrapolate back to what happened. But I think what's so interesting about it is that even in the CIA, there's this kind of question, did they exaggerate their own role? Because in the CIA, they go around saying, hey, we can do this. We can do coups. And actually, the person who does it on the ground, Kermit Roosevelt, who is the guy on the ground literally orchestrating it, comes away from it going, it's not as easy as you think. And actually we had to kind of work with the grain of local forces. And he says the CIA made the mistake of coming away thinking, well, we can do it anywhere. And he says you can draw a direct line of that to, you know, Bay of Pigs in Cuba and other things, precisely because they kind of learned the wrong lessons in the CIA from it.

[Anita]

Just. I mean, we talked in detail about the Shah, and we gave sort of pen portraits of what he was like, what Mossadegh was like. But Kermit Roosevelt, I think we dealt with very lightly. And so just. I mean, give us an idea of. You said he was an academic, but where did he come from? You know, what was he like and how was he regarded in the State Department and other places?

[Gordon Carrera]

You know, he came from this kind of academic background, but also the kind of Roosevelt name, you know, because he's kind of Theodore Roosevelt, you know, grandfather had been president. There's a funny bit where he's supposedly undercover in Tehran and he's going under the name James Lockridge and kind of playing tennis with people. And whenever he would do a bad shot, he would say, oh, Roosevelt. In kind of anger at himself having it got wrong, which would give away his cover. And he had to then explain to people that the reason why Tao Roosevelt is because he hated Franklin Roosevelt so much. And that that was the reason why he'd say, as a kind of swear word, rather than actually having a go at himself. You get a sense from That a man who was. Who was a kind of spy, but not maybe your James Bond character. And also the amount of drinking that goes on from these CIA agents in Tehran. I mean, I just was looking at these accounts and I kind of said to David, my co host, who did spend some time in the CIA. Is that what happens these days, kind of drinking and singing as well? I mean, it's a kind of bizarre culture at the time.

[William Dalrymple]

A Philby at the same sort of time is completely drunk as a lord in Beirut at the same time as station chief in.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, it's exactly that same kind of culture in the 50s and 60s, I think, in the intelligence world. And you get a real insight into it, I think, through this story.

[Anita]

What I'm really looking forward to in your entire series actually is, you know, we on the outside of the tent have this image of CIA operatives who are sort of better than us, cleverer than us, smarter than us, but they are entirely human and fallible. I mean, that sort of shouting Roosevelt. It's like that scene in the Great Escape when someone says, good luck. Thank you. You know, they're human beings, you know, they're entire and they do stupid things sometimes.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. And I think that's part of what we want to do is, you know, there's so much mythology around spies and intelligence work and it's so shrouded in fiction and the kind of James Bond representations and John le Carre and I think the chance to kind of strip some of that away and actually look at the people and the real stories and the consequences of it and to kind of do that with a bit of authenticity rather than kind of over glamorizing it. That's one of the things I think we're hoping to do with this podcast.

[William Dalrymple]

We will be listening in. Absolutely. This has completely up my street, but don't forget the pigeons.

[Anita]

Look, I mean, it really does. And it sort of dovetails with the kind of thing that we do as well. Anyway, look, as a treat for our listeners, we've got a five minute clip from today's. The rest is classified.

[David McCloskey]

And there's a kind of colorful cast of characters. Weirdly, a lot of the people seem to be academics, which is kind of interesting. I don't know what it tells you, but Robin Zayner is one of the first one who was a kind of experienced figure from MI6 who'd worked a lot in Tehran during the war. Kind of crazy figure who is an American, said a man with an extraordinary capacity to combine high thought with low Living, which is quite a description.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It does remind me of the sort of CIA profile for hiring at the time, which was essentially they were looking for PhDs who could win bar fights. That's more or less what they were looking for in the early years of the Cold War.

[David McCloskey]

So Zainer is a guy who at once is kind of experimenting with opium and then leaves Iran in 1952 to go back to be professor of Eastern Religions at Oxford that year. So there you go. So there you go. Replacing him is another guy called Monty Woodhouse, another great British name, Flaming Red Beard, Winchester and Oxford classicist, who, rather than becoming an academic, goes into Special Operations Executive during the war in Greece. And he's really the one who comes up with Operation Boot to get Mossadegh out. Now, the problem is the Iranians are kind of onto the Brits and what they're up to in the pressure campaign. So in October 52, they shut the British Embassy and they basically kicked the British out. So at that point, the kind of plans for the Brits to do regime change are effectively over. They have no one on the ground to do it. So what do they do?

[Unnamed Speaker]

What do they do? And you know, Gordon, we've made it a decent way into this podcast, much to my dismay, without mentioning the American security services. But we're going to get there now, right, because essentially the British plan, they're going to go to Washington and try to convince the Americans to get involved.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, because they need the Americans at this point. UK has got agents on the ground, it's got a network, but it can't run them anymore. It's also fair to say they need the CIA's people on the ground and they need the CIA's money, frankly, because they think it's going to take some money to do this. And I think as well, it's kind of interesting moment to think about the relationship between the two spy services at this point, because MI6 is the established one and CIA are the newcomers.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, I actually think the arrangement here of British, essentially, MI6 networks in Iran, know how on how to operate in the country, plus sort of the CIA's kind of political heft and the money is a great microcosm of the relationship at the time, because the agency, I mean, at this point is, you know, the Directorate of Operations, which was then called the Directorate of Plans, is one year old at this point in time. The CIA was founded in 1947. I mean, this is a young organization. The Americans don't have a lot of experience, frankly, with on the Ground spying in the Middle East. And they've learned all of the trade craft from the Brits. Yeah, right. And there's an incredible fusion of the two services during the Second World War. So I think this partnership, it fits together very naturally, doesn't it, to undertake regime change in the Middle East.

[David McCloskey]

Although I think at this point there's also a little bit of tension. Cause I think the Brits know the Americans are the kind of rising power. And I mean, there's a great big galling, isn't it?

[Unnamed Speaker]

And then there's a little galling to Washington. Yes.

[David McCloskey]

Go to Washington for help. I mean, there's a famous scene, so 53, which is when the coup happens, is also when Ian Fleming writes Casino Royale, when the book comes out, the first James Bond book. And there's a scene in that where Bond is trying to bankrupt his adversary at the baccarat table and he's run out of money. And so Felix Leito, or the American spy, basically slides over an envelope with, you know, with all the money that he needs to do it. And I think that's emblematic of how Britain felt at the time. It's like, well, we know how to do it, but we kind of need the Americans. They're the cash machine for us to do it. And there is a bit of a feeling here where the Brits are like, we want to get rid of Mosaddegh and we're going to need to get the Americans to help us to do it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And they have to sell that in a particular way, don't they?

[David McCloskey]

Which is where Monty comes in and Monty goes to. Monty goes to Washington. And, you know, they realize that saying, we just want our oil money is not going to kind of necessarily work with the best sell. The best sell. And the best sell is Communism.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Communism.

[David McCloskey]

Communism and the Cold War.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Because right now we've got Alan Dulles running the Central Intelligence Agency, don't we?

[David McCloskey]

Yep.

[Unnamed Speaker]

He's a cold warrior.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You know what's funny is this story when we get to these CIA guys, none of these guys would be allowed in the door today. You know, they were drunk all the time. Alan Dulles, I believe he was having an affair with the Queen of Greece.

[David McCloskey]

Okay.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Around this time. And had, you know, maybe 100 mistresses throughout his. Yes, yes.

[Gordon Carrera]

So these guys.

[Unnamed Speaker]

These guys are not passing polygraphs today.

[David McCloskey]

Okay.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But they're running the entire organization in the 50s. And there's also, I guess, another wonderful character here, which is Kermit Roosevelt.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

Let's deal with the name.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Now, he goes by Kim sometimes, but I think for our purposes, we should call him Kermit.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, because, I mean, this is before the Muppets, we should say. So it's. It's not a name. It's not a name associated with Kermit the Frog. It's a real name, I guess. It's one of those American names. And as you said earlier, he's Teddy Roosevelt, the former president's grandson. So a kind of aristocratic figure, kind of, in American terms, at least, from a. From a big political dynasty.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, well, he is. He is kind of the Eastern establishment, I think, in many ways. Although anyone listening to this who is picturing Teddy Roosevelt, you know, with the large, you know, very virile mustache and sort of adventuring, this guy looks like an insurance salesman, I think. Now, as we'll see, he's quite bold, he's quite adventurous. He's sort of an imperial adventurer in many ways, I think.

[David McCloskey]

And if you want to hear the.

[Gordon Carrera]

Full episode, listen to the rest is classified.

[David McCloskey]

Wherever you get your podcasts.