Empire Podcast Summary: Episode “Introducing... The Rest is Classified”

Release Date: November 27, 2024
Hosts: William Dalrymple and Anita Anand
Guest: Gordon Carrera
Podcast Featured: The Rest is Classified by Goalhanger

1. Introduction to “The Rest is Classified”

In the premiere episode of "Empire," hosts William Dalrymple and Anita Anand introduce listeners to a compelling new podcast from Goalhanger titled "The Rest is Classified." This podcast delves into the intricate and often shadowy world of international diplomacy and espionage, uncovering brilliant yet obscure stories from history's murkiest corners.

Anita Anand describes the podcast as a series that "will tell you some of the most brilliant stories from some of the most murky corners of international diplomacy" (00:35).

2. Hosts and Their Expertise

William Dalrymple and Anita Anand bring their extensive knowledge and passion for history and international affairs to the discussion, setting the stage for an in-depth exploration of the podcast's themes.

Anita Anand emphasizes the expertise of the podcast hosts:

“...hosted by former CIA analyst turned spy novelist David McCloskey and a friend of mine, the national security journalist Gordon Carrera...”
— Anita Anand (00:35)

3. Overview of “The Rest is Classified” Content

Gordon Carrera, a national security journalist and co-host of "The Rest is Classified," outlines the podcast’s focus on espionage and secret operations throughout history. The series promises to cover a diverse range of topics, including:

• CIA Operations in Afghanistan Post-9/11
• Cold War Espionage in Moscow
• North Korean Cyber Heists
• Edward Snowden’s Revelations
• The 1953 Iranian Coup

Carreira explains, “We’re going to be looking at stories from the world of spies and secrets through the ages… including slightly crazy characters and historical consequences” (02:00).

4. Spotlight on the 1953 Iranian Coup

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the 1953 Iranian coup d'état, orchestrated by the CIA and MI6 to overthrow Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh. The hosts explore the complexities and debates surrounding the extent of foreign intervention versus indigenous Iranian motives.

Anita Anand raises critical questions:

“…the CIA perhaps take more credit, ironically, than they deserve, for toppling a government?”
— Anita Anand (03:21)

William Dalrymple adds:

“There is a whole school of Iranian thought that the Iranians were” [...] “not just easily led by a CIA carrot.”
— William Dalrymple (03:42)

Gordon Carrera delves deeper into the coup's nuances:

“It wouldn’t have happened without some role for MI6 and the CIA, but it would be wrong to see it as simply imposed from the outside.”
— Gordon Carrera (04:00)

5. Roles of CIA and MI6 in the Coup

The episode highlights the collaborative yet complex relationship between the CIA and MI6 during the coup. While MI6 had established networks in Iran, the CIA brought crucial financial resources and political influence necessary for the operation's success.

Gordon Carrera outlines the partnership:

“MI6 networks in Iran plus sort of the CIA's political heft and the money is a great microcosm of the relationship at the time.”
— Gordon Carrera (10:14)

David McCloskey, guest on the podcast, adds context about the CIA’s nascent experience:

“The CIA was founded in 1947... They learned all of the trade craft from the Brits.”
— David McCloskey (10:53)

6. Key Figures: Kermit Roosevelt and Monty Woodhouse

The discussion introduces pivotal figures involved in the coup, particularly Kermit Roosevelt of the CIA and Monty Woodhouse of MI6.

Gordon Carrera provides insights into Kermit Roosevelt's character and actions:

“He was... an academic turned spy, part of an aristocratic American dynasty… underestimated yet bold and adventurous.”
— Gordon Carrera (13:31)

Anita Anand inquires about Monty Woodhouse:

“We talked about the Shah, but Kermit Roosevelt… give us an idea of…”
— Anita Anand (06:06)

Gordon Carrera elaborates on Monty Woodhouse’s role:

“Monty comes up with Operation Boot to get Mossadegh out… plays tennis undercover, exhibiting the quirky human side of spies.”
— Gordon Carrera (06:25)

7. Humanizing the Spies: Fallibility and Personalities

A recurring theme is the humanization of intelligence operatives, showcasing their vulnerabilities and flawed personalities contrary to the often-idealized image of spies.

Gordon Carrera discusses the culture within the CIA:

“There’s a kind of bizarre culture at the time with drinking and singing.”
— Gordon Carrera (07:22)

William Dalrymple adds humorously:

“A Philby at the same sort of time is completely drunk as a lord in Beirut...”
— William Dalrymple (07:22)

Anita Anand reflects on the relatability of spies:

“They are entirely human and fallible. They do stupid things sometimes.”
— Anita Anand (07:59)

This portrayal demystifies espionage, presenting spies as complex individuals rather than infallible agents.

8. Debunking Espionage Myths

The hosts strive to separate the myth from reality in intelligence work, challenging the glamorous portrayal seen in fiction and popular media.

Gordon Carrera states:

“There’s so much mythology around spies and intelligence work… we want to strip some of that away and actually look at the people and the real stories.”
— Gordon Carrera (07:59)

Anita Anand adds:

“As a treat for our listeners, we've got a five-minute clip from today's 'The Rest is Classified'.”
— Anita Anand (08:27)

This approach aims to provide authenticity and a grounded perspective on historical espionage activities.

9. Notable Quotes and Anecdotes

Throughout the episode, several memorable quotes and anecdotes highlight the personalities involved and the intricate nature of espionage operations.

• Gordon Carrera on the CIA's self-perception:

  “CIA go around saying, hey, we can do this. We can do coups.”
  — Gordon Carrera (04:32)

• William Dalrymple humorously notes:

  “Never heard of it” in reference to a parish associated with Gordon Carrera.
  — William Dalrymple (01:14)

• Gordon Carrera on pigeons' historical roles:

  “Nothing is beyond a pigeon. They are the superheroes of history.”
  — Gordon Carrera (01:56)

These quotes enrich the narrative, offering both depth and levity to the historical discourse.

10. Conclusion and Anticipation for Future Episodes

As the episode wraps up, the hosts express excitement for the upcoming stories in "The Rest is Classified," promising an engaging exploration of espionage history.

William Dalrymple concludes:

“This has completely up my street, but don't forget the pigeons.”
— William Dalrymple (08:34)

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe and stay tuned for more fascinating episodes that promise to unravel the complexities of historical espionage.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Anita Anand: “The CIA perhaps take more credit, ironically, than they deserve, for toppling a government?” (03:21)
• William Dalrymple: “There’s a whole school of Iranian thought that the Iranians were... not just easily led by a CIA carrot.” (03:42)
• Gordon Carrera: “It wouldn’t have happened without some role for MI6 and the CIA, but it would be wrong to see it as simply imposed from the outside.” (04:00)
• Gordon Carrera: “Nothing is beyond a pigeon. They are the superheroes of history.” (01:56)
• Anita Anand: “They are entirely human and fallible. They do stupid things sometimes.” (07:59)

Timestamp Reference

For ease of navigation, here are key timestamps referenced in the summary:

• [00:29] – Introduction to "The Rest is Classified"
• [00:35] – Hosts and Expertise
• [02:00] – Overview of Podcast Content
• [03:21] – Discussion on CIA and MI6 Roles
• [03:42] – Iranian Agency Perspectives
• [04:00] – Complexity of the 1953 Coup
• [06:06] – Inquiry into Key Figures
• [07:22] – Culture within CIA
• [07:59] – Humanizing Spies
• [08:34] – Conclusion and Pigeons Mention
• [01:56] – Pigeons as Historical Spies

“Empire” continues to explore the rise and fall of empires through insightful discussions with experts and historians, making history accessible and engaging for all listeners. "The Rest is Classified" episode provides a riveting glimpse into the clandestine operations that have shaped global power dynamics.