Empire City: The Untold Origin Story of the NYPD

Special Episode: Introducing: American Criminal (August 25, 2025)
Hosted by Wondery & Crooked Media | Guest: Jeremy Schwartz (Host of American Criminal)

Episode Overview

This special episode introduces listeners to the American Criminal podcast by Jeremy Schwartz, offering a sample of its investigative true crime storytelling. Schwartz teases his show’s deep-dives into notorious American crime cases, specifically focusing on the disturbing partnership of Henry Lee Lucas and Otis Toole—infamous figures who both confessed to, recanted, and then re-confessed to hundreds of murders in the 1980s. The episode highlights their connection to the tragic 1981 murder of Adam Walsh and explores how these stories changed the American criminal justice landscape, especially regarding missing children.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. About the American Criminal Podcast

• Format and Approach:
  • Host Jeremy Schwartz describes the show’s dedication to thorough storytelling:

    "Every season we explore some of the biggest, most devious history making crime stories America has ever seen. ...We dive deep into these cases over a number of weeks to bring you the whole story from start to finish."
    (00:05, A: Jeremy Schwartz)

• Honest Pitch:
  • Schwartz says:

    "And I might be biased, but I think you're gonna love it. There, I said it."
    (00:02, A: Jeremy Schwartz)

2. Henry Lee Lucas & Otis Toole: A Story of Confession and Confusion

• Unreliable Narratives:
  • The season focuses on the fluctuating stories of the two serial killers:

    "They confessed to—get ready—hundreds of murders in the 1980s...Then they took it all back, then confessed again. It got to the stage where no one knew what was the truth and what was fiction."
    (00:35–01:10, B and A)

• Law Enforcement Chaos:
  • Schwartz describes agencies and courts clashing over their testimonies:

    "Law enforcement agencies squared off to fight about it. The media published exposés and the courts couldn’t work out what to do. It was a mess."
    (01:08–01:20, A and B)

• Central Question:
  • Doubt is cast on their confessed crimes:

    "...if Henry Lee Lucas and Otis Toole didn't commit all of the murders they copped to, who did?"
    (06:53, A: Jeremy Schwartz)

3. The Adam Walsh Case and Its Impact

• Case Overview:
  • The episode sets up the connection between Adam Walsh’s abduction and Lucas/Toole’s confessions:

    "This season also looks at the murder of six year old Adam Walsh...Adam's story...changed the way America responds to missing children."
    (01:24, A: Jeremy Schwartz)

• Finding the Remains:
  • Scene-setting for the discovery in Florida:

    "It's the afternoon of August 10, 1981, in Central Florida. A pair of citrus farm laborers are walking alongside a drainage canal...when one...points at the canal where he can see something floating on the surface...It’s the head of a person, a child."
    (02:13–03:16, B)

    • The discovery is quickly linked to the search for Adam Walsh by those present.

4. The Backstory of Lucas and Toole

• Their Meeting and Relationship:
  • The show outlines the beginnings of their partnership:

    "In 1979, two men with extensive criminal records and plenty of prison time under their belts met outside a homeless shelter in Jacksonville, Florida. It was the beginning of an enduring friendship."
    (04:42, B)

• Life in Jacksonville:
  • Their integration with Toole’s family, including introductions to young relatives:

    "...Otis introduces Henry to his mother and stepfather and his sister's kids. Frida, who everyone calls Becky, is 12 with long dark hair, and she seems kind of shy...Henry Lee Lucas has a history of sexually abusing young girls, and Becky is just his type."
    (07:10, B)

• Early Offenses and Escalation:
  • Their petty crimes and possible escalation, often accompanied by children.

5. Murders Along Interstate 35

• Sandra Mae Dubs Case:

  • In October 1979, Sandra’s car breaks down outside Austin and she is later found murdered:

    "Sandra was sexually assaulted and then stabbed. Whoever killed her left her naked in the grass, some of her clothes and jewelry scattered around her."
    (11:07, B)

  • Ominous connection:

    "Either I-35 is a magnet for senseless murder, or there's a particularly cunning killer or pair of killers working the interstate."
    (15:06, B)

• Bookstore Murders:

  • The slaying of Molly and Harry Schlesinger at their store, with chilling proximity to the earlier case.

    "Molly and Harry Schlesinger are lying and spreading pools of blood, both of them shot in the head. Miraculously, they're still alive when they're found, but both die...later that night."
    (13:45, B)

6. Fact, Fiction, and the Art of the Dramatization

• Limitations and Approach:

  "This episode may contain reenactments or dramatized details. And while in some cases we can't know exactly what happened, all our dramatizations are based on historical research."
  (15:35, A: Jeremy Schwartz)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the confusion of truth:

  "It got to the stage where no one knew what was the truth and what was fiction."
  (01:08, A: Jeremy Schwartz)

• On the tragedy of the Adam Walsh discovery:

  "It's the head of a person, a child...The men who spotted the remains start to wonder who this child is...If this is Adam, then the search for a missing child is about to become the hunt for a killer."
  (02:39–03:16, B)

• On the challenge facing investigators:

  "Verifying that story is difficult because even though Henry and Otis seemed to know a lot about plenty of murders...finding solid evidence...was another matter."
  (05:58, B)

• On cold reality:

  "Sandra was sexually assaulted and then stabbed...The trail goes cold as rapidly as the weather."
  (11:07–11:54, B)

Major Timestamps

• 00:02 – Jeremy Schwartz introduces American Criminal and its format.
• 01:24 – Explains how Adam Walsh's story fits into the season’s arc.
• 02:13 – The discovery of a child's remains in a Florida canal.
• 04:42 – Background on Lucas and Toole’s meeting.
• 07:10 – Their lives in Jacksonville and connection to Otis’s family.
• 10:46 – The murder of Sandra Mae Dubs.
• 13:45 – Austin bookstore shootings.
• 15:33 – Credits and disclaimer on dramatizations.

Tone and Style

Jeremy Schwartz’s style blends the matter-of-fact with suspenseful storytelling, employing empathy for victims and their families while scrutinizing systems and personalities behind infamous crimes. The narrative is thorough and measured, occasionally graphic, and always tied closely to historical record and research. The pacing builds tension while focusing on investigative rigor—a hallmark of the American Criminal approach.

Summary Takeaway

This episode is an excellent primer for new listeners, introducing the gripping approach of American Criminal with a story that underscores the tangled web of confessions, media pressure, criminal justice pitfalls, and the long, painful shadows cast by violent crime in America. Schwartz invites listeners to explore, question, and confront the uncertainty at the heart of notorious murder cases—reminding us of both the human cost and the complexities behind how crimes are solved, remembered, or exploited for public attention.

Listeners intrigued by these questions are encouraged to dive deeper by subscribing to American Criminal for the full story.