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Listen Now - Code Switch: What happens when public housing goes private?
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- [00:00]
Unknown Host
This week we're bringing you an episode from our friends over at Code Switch. If you haven't checked them out, Code Switch is an NPR show that looks at race in America and all the ways it shows up in our lives. Last year, Code Switch focused in on a New York City institution, public housing. They asked what happens when public housing faces the prospect of going private. Up to a million people live in public housing in New York City, and this episode was reported by one of those residents. Her name is Fonta Kaba, and she started digging into this story when she was a senior in high school. Fonta is now in her first year of college. But the privatization of public housing projects is still underway in New York City and all over the country. I'll let my friend and Code Switch host, Gene Demby take it from here.
- [00:45]
Gene Demby
What's good, y'all? You're listening to Code Switch. I'm Gene Demby. If you lived in or near a big city in the United States over the last two and a half decades, you have probably seen it or maybe just heard it.
- [00:58]
James Rodriguez
Today is demolition day at crew at Igoe high rise.
- [01:04]
Gene Demby
Public housing projects being blown up by explosives. All these buildings crumbling to the ground in giant clouds of dust and smoke. But it wasn't just the buildings that were blown up, but also this big audacious dream of social reformers from the early 20th century. That dream was to make sure that poor and working people in big cities had someplace safe and affordable to live.
- [01:32]
Historical Voice
10 million American families, 2/3 of the human resources of American democracy are today living in slums, housed in very bad condition and infested with rats, roaches.
- [01:43]
Gene Demby
That's the way the United States Housing Authority described the state of affairs in the 1930s. That short film was about the need for this then new idea, public housing, to be subsidized by the local government and with money from Washington. New York City was the starting point for this bold new idea. The city had whole neighborhoods made up of squalid, dangerously overcrowded tenements.
- [02:05]
Historical Voice
A happy day it is for every family that can escape from the misery of a slum home and environment.
- [02:11]
Gene Demby
And so New York built a lot of public housing so so that people could escape the misery of their slum homes, as that dude we heard just put it. In lots of New York neighborhoods, the projects are defining features of the landscape. Tall, nearly identical brown brick apartment buildings with big courtyards that seem to stretch on for blocks and blocks at a time. It was a model for public housing that much of the rest of the country would follow. But in New York, the scale of it is on a whole nother level. So depending on who is doing the counting, there are anywhere between 360,000 and a million people living in public housing in New York City. That's a population around the size of Boston or New Orleans. That means, on the high end, something like 1 in 8 New Yorkers lives in public housing, and it makes the city's public housing authority the biggest landlord in the whole country. Back when they were first built, the projects used to be almost exclusively and purposely all white In New York City and elsewhere. Today, though, almost 90% of the people who live in them are black or Latinx, Although there is a growing Asian American population living in those complexes, too. Perhaps not unrelatedly, the initial commitment to public housing from the feds, state, and local governments did not last. The money and support for them dried up, and over time, all those properties started to fall into disrepair. The projects were supposed to solve some of the biggest problems facing American cities. Instead, they became a kind of shorthand for all the problems facing black inner cities. Crime and drugs and concentrated poverty. So after decades of neglect, by the 1990s, more and more cities started tearing them down and demolishing their housing projects. As we heard, in New York City, though, most of the projects are still standing. But the current state of affairs is just not really working for anybody, Especially all the people who live in those buildings. Fonta Cabo is one of those residents, and Fonta has been digging into this for WNYC's Radio Rookies program. What's good with you, fonta?
- [04:23]
Fonta Kaba
Hey, Gene. Happy to be here.
- [04:24]
Gene Demby
And, Fonta, you've been reporting on this huge story that maybe not enough people are paying attention to.
- [04:30]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah. So for several years now, New York, like cities around the country, has been trying out a new idea, inviting private developers and companies to take over their public housing.
- [04:44]
Gene Demby
I don't know. That's already making my incident twitch. I don't know.
- [04:48]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah, it brings up so many hard questions and choices, and I've realized that this is really all about money and the fact that public housing doesn't really have much of it anymore.
- [05:00]
Gene Demby
Right.
- [05:01]
Fonta Kaba
But remember, this is New York City. Everyone wants to be here, but there's no space. And you can't forget it's really expensive. So a lot of people are worried that these plans are just a way to turn these buildings and the land they sit on into something else. A system with private landlords and a profit motive and everything that comes with that.
- [05:25]
Gene Demby
Hmm. And so on this episode, what happens when public housing goes private? A whole lot of the poorest residents of America's biggest city, who are almost all people of color, are about to find out. Before we get into the weeds of all this, we should get to know a little bit more about who is reporting the story and get a sense of why this story is so important to her. Fonta, who you just met, is 17, and she wants to be a journalist one day. But real talk, y'all, she. She's already pretty good at it.
- [06:02]
Fonta Kaba
I feel like it's just a combination of all the things I love doing. Like, I love to talk to people, I love to write, and I feel like journalism is just like, a combination of those things.
- [06:12]
Gene Demby
Are you nosy a little bit?
- [06:16]
Fonta Kaba
I am. I am.
- [06:17]
Gene Demby
It's good to be nosy. We get paid, basically, to be nosy.
- [06:19]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah, exactly. You get paid to mind other people's business.
- [06:23]
Gene Demby
This crossroads that the city is facing is. It hits real close to home for Fonta and her family.
- [06:32]
Fonta Kaba
Okay, I live in the Bronx. I live in Mott Haven, and it's like a NYCHA complex.
- [06:38]
Gene Demby
NYCHA stands for the New York City.
- [06:39]
Fonta Kaba
Housing Authority, and basically, they are in charge of all the public housing in New York City.
- [06:45]
Gene Demby
Mm. And so you live in the Mott Haven houses, and so there are a lot of buildings, right?
- [06:50]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah.
- [06:51]
Gene Demby
In the Moth Haven houses. How would you describe your apartment that you live in? Your family's apartment?
- [06:56]
Fonta Kaba
It's definitely evolved over time. Like, when we first moved in, we had, like, the generic, like, the bland walls that come with the apartment. And then my mom started putting a lot of time into, like, decorating the apartment and trying to make it feel like home for us. So then at first it was like, this, like, really ugly teal color, but now it's teal.
- [07:17]
Gene Demby
Oh, my God.
- [07:18]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah, it was teal. But there's a whole bunch of, like, words and, like, sayings in Arabic and, like, Quranic verses and also just, like, family pictures on the wall.
- [07:29]
Gene Demby
Fonta's parents are from guinea in West Africa, and along with Fonta's oldest sister, they came to the United States in 2001. And they bounced around, like, a lot. They were all over New York. They spent some time in North Carolina, even, and they all eventually ended up in the Bronx, living in Fonta's grandmother's apartment. So if you can imagine, it was Fonta, her five siblings, her parents, her grandparents, her aunts, her uncles. Can you remember how many people total it was?
- [07:56]
Fonta Kaba
Oof. I don't Even know I would have to count with my hands and toes. So many of us.
- [08:03]
Gene Demby
Fonta figured it out. There were 15, 15 of her relatives all crammed into a two bedroom apartment. And eventually they all had to leave that apartment too. And that's when her family ended up in the shelter. Do you remember how long you were there?
- [08:18]
Fonta Kaba
I think maybe for a year. I don't know. Like, that time is kind of like, blurry for me. Like, I can't remember exactly how long we were there, but it was like a year, two years.
- [08:29]
Gene Demby
You said it's blurry for you when you think about that time. What do you sort of feel like when you think about that time?
- [08:36]
Fonta Kaba
I kind of have mixed feelings about it because, like, like, of course it was better because we had more space than like, just being cramped in my grandma's apartment. But because it was a shelter, like, it's obviously a temporary situation, it felt like we were just like, I don't know, like in transition for like a year and a half, basically. Like, we. We were just like, we really didn't have a home or like, anywhere to call home. And like, me and my siblings were all sharing, like, one room, all six of us in one room.
- [09:10]
Gene Demby
Wow.
- [09:10]
Fonta Kaba
And like, we couldn't have, like, cable. We didn't talk to our neighbors. We didn't know anybody on the floor. Like, we were just. We were just like living there. And we had like a curfew, so I couldn't go to after school because my after school ended at 6:30 and like, the curfew was like 7.
- [09:27]
Gene Demby
When Fonta was 10, she said her family finally got out of that shelter and got into public housing. It was in a neighborhood she didn't really know that well, and it was a few miles away from where her grandmother lived, and they had to move on a hot summer afternoon. Getting there was a journey.
- [09:47]
Fonta Kaba
And then I remember, like, the day we moved in and like, we were bringing all our stuff. Like, we didn't take the train. I don't know why, but we walked all the way from my grandma's house to my haven. Like, we walked, I don't even know how far. Like, we walked for so long. And I was like, why are we walking? Like, why aren't we taking the bus? And it's because we were hauling, like, all of our stuff.
- [10:10]
Gene Demby
Oh, yeah.
- [10:11]
Fonta Kaba
And like, shopping carts and like, laundry bags. Like, so we were just like walking the whole time.
- [10:17]
Gene Demby
Like, oh, man. And so all of y'all are obviously carrying stuff, right? Even the little kids are carrying Stuff, right?
- [10:22]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah, we were all carrying stuff. Yeah.
- [10:25]
Gene Demby
Wow. Do you remember your first day at the apartment?
- [10:28]
Fonta Kaba
I do, actually.
- [10:29]
Gene Demby
Oh, do you?
- [10:30]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah. We went to the apartment when it was empty, so there was, like, nothing there. And, like, child me, I was, like, so unimpressed. Like, I was like. Like, I didn't. I didn't ask this, like, where's my pink bedroom? But then my mom was like, yeah. Like, it takes time.
- [10:47]
Gene Demby
She's like, you gonna get this teal bedroom?
- [10:48]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah. I live on the second floor, so there's this, like, small area in front of the building with, like, benches. And there's always, like, older people outside talking. Or like, the dads. They would always be, like, fixing cars outside in front of the building. They're just always talking, playing music, laughing.
- [11:11]
Gene Demby
So you're on the second floor, so you probably hear a lot of, like, the conversations and stuff, right?
- [11:14]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah, I hear everything. Like, everything. I'm always tuning in and tuning out. I'm like, ooh, what's going on today?
- [11:20]
Gene Demby
See, nosy.
- [11:21]
Fonta Kaba
See, like, people in my neighborhood are just very, like, open. They're always saying, like, good morning, good afternoon. How are you? Even if they haven't seen you before or they don't know you, like, they're always very, very kind.
- [11:37]
Gene Demby
Did you expect them not to be? Like, did you have any sort of preconceived notions about public housing and the people who live there?
- [11:43]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah.
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Gene Demby
Before you lived there?
- [11:45]
Fonta Kaba
I don't know. Like, when I was younger, I used to be really ashamed that I lived in a project.
- [11:50]
Gene Demby
Oh, really?
- [11:50]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah. I used to be, like, kind of embarrassed about it. Like. Like, when I was in elementary, middle school, there were a couple of kids that lived in the projects, but they were, like, called ghetto. Like, you're ghetto or, like, you're ratchet. You live in the projects. I became, like, really, like, conscious of, like, my apartment, and, like, I just started to feel a little ashamed of it. But now, like, I'm. I'm. I don't know. I'm not really ashamed of it anymore. I. I think it was just, like, a childish thing I had where I was just, like, so concerned about how people saw me.
- [12:22]
Gene Demby
It's not childish. It makes sense.
- [12:24]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah, I guess not childish, but I was just, like, insecure. Like. Like, I was so, like, oh, what are they gonna think about me?
- [12:33]
Gene Demby
You've been asking all these other people about what nycha means to them, but what does it mean to you?
- [12:40]
Fonta Kaba
I guess, if anything, like, nycha, specifically, like, my haven has meant, like, just stability for Me. And also community. Like, it's different from everywhere else I've lived because, like, almost everything that I, like, wanted in somewhere I, like, would live is, like, in walking distance. Like, there's a mosque that I grew up in, basically just, like, down the block. And then there's a basketball court, there's playgrounds. Like, we have neighbors that actually care about us. And, like, I finally got, like, space to have my own room. Like, I don't know. I think of it like a blessing for me. Like, just. Just a blessing.
- [13:26]
Gene Demby
There's a sense of security that housing projects like the one Fonta lives in give to residents. But that sense of security is in real danger because, like we said, NYCHA has been bringing in private companies to take over public housing.
- [13:40]
Fonta Kaba
And to be clear, this isn't happening to all NYCHA buildings right now. My building isn't changing anytime soon that I know of. But it's all about the money, which to most people, shows up as repairs and maintenance that haven't been kept up with, sometimes for years. There are way too many NYCHA residents living with leaks, mold, rats, and roaches. Sometimes in the winter, there's no heat or hot water. Even in some complexes, people have gone months without gas. And all of these residents are paying rent that amounts to 30% of their income to live in conditions that no one should have to live in.
- [14:20]
Gene Demby
Hmm. So it's kind of hard to miss the irony here that these are a lot of the living conditions that public housing was designed originally to fix and address.
- [14:27]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah.
- [14:28]
And now the housing authority says that in order to repair everything, it would take $78 billion.
- [14:36]
Gene Demby
$78 billion with a B. Just to put that in perspective, the city of New York's total budget last year was $107 billion. So, I mean, where's all that money for repairs supposed to come from?
- [14:49]
Fonta Kaba
Well, they know they're not getting it from the government, so they've been inviting private developers and management companies to take over entire housing complexes. Like, they become the building managers, and they get to collect the rent. NYCHA can't take on debt, but these private companies can, and they can take out big loans and use that money to make renovations. This plan puts these buildings under private control for the next 99 years.
- [15:19]
Hmm.
- [15:20]
Gene Demby
So these private developers are being invited to cash in on the leases of the country's biggest landlord for a century, More or less.
- [15:28]
Fonta Kaba
Right, right. And while Congress has cut money from public housing, which was created as a government program called Section 9, they've put more money into a program called Section 8.
- [15:40]
Gene Demby
MM Section 8, which is the housing voucher program that helps low income people pay their rent.
- [15:47]
James Rodriguez
Section 8 creates a subsidy that goes directly into private landlord and developers pockets.
- [15:54]
Fonta Kaba
I talked to James Rodriguez about this. He's a professor at the City University of New York School of Labor and Urban Studies and he specializes in things like public housing and gentrification.
- [16:05]
James Rodriguez
And so there's a way that we've seen that housing benefit really circumvent actual tenants and is finding a way to create another revenue stream for private capital.
- [16:19]
Fonta Kaba
James said that this plan has allowed nycha to turn Section 9 apartments into Section 8 apartments.
- [16:25]
James Rodriguez
They've already converted nearly 40,000 public housing units into this private property manager structure. And so communities that used to be public housing are actually no longer anymore.
- [16:39]
Fonta Kaba
And since they're running the projects like section 8, the private companies get money from the government every month for every apartment they manage.
- [16:48]
Gene Demby
Wow. And again, NYCHA is huge.
- [16:52]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah, it is. There are over 175,000 units.
- [16:57]
Gene Demby
Hmm. So yeah, it's kind of obvious why private developers might want to get in on this. It's a real estate play in a place where real estate is really hard to come by. But what are the folks who live in public housing and who now have these developers as their landlords? What do they think about all this?
- [17:12]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah, I wanted to know the same thing.
- [17:14]
Historical Voice
So I was for the conversion because my building was like in a really dilapidated state.
- [17:20]
Fonta Kaba
That's Sanji Lopez. She lives in Batanza's houses in the Bronx, which was privatized in 2020.
- [17:27]
Historical Voice
Our apartment, like a lot of things were like falling apart. Like the cabinets and all of that were like really old and like there were holes in them and everything. Mice and rats were coming in through it. We always had some type of plumbing issue in our building, especially in our apartment. Some leak, you know, like it was all. So I thought that the conversion would help with all of that as well.
- [17:50]
Fonta Kaba
Sanji said they showed residents pictures of what their apartments could look like with renovated kitchens and fresh paint that got.
- [17:58]
Historical Voice
Everyone excited and riled up. Like seeing your own apartment in the pictures and seeing what could be was exciting for a lot of people. And that was the main thing that they discussed at first.
- [18:08]
Fonta Kaba
Sanjay was really excited for these changes. She even appeared in this promo video meant to pitch the private landlords to other NYCHA residents.
- [18:17]
Unknown Host
It is more important than ever to.
- [18:19]
Gene Demby
Maintain quality, affordable housing for all New Yorkers.
- [18:23]
Historical Voice
I would say for anyone who's worried about being displaced, you can rest assured that that won't happen. I trust that PACT has the residents best interests in mind.
- [18:31]
Fonta Kaba
Pact is the name of the privatization program that converted Sanji's apartment. But these long awaited renovations ended up taking months and months. It didn't take long for Sanji to realize that a lot of the repair work they did in her apartment was kind of shoddy. When do you realize like, the renovations weren't all it was like cut up to be?
- [18:54]
Historical Voice
Oh, the paint was the first thing. The paint started chipping in like a matter of days. Mold also again accruing even more than it did with nycha. We still had plumbing issues and leaking issues in the building because that wasn't replaced, you know, or like heat and hot waters are in the winter, sometimes we have issues with that stuff. So that didn't just go away. Right. We thought all these things were going to be rectified and brand new when the new developer came in and NYCHA left. But the fact of the matter is it's a structural thing, it's a building thing.
- [19:26]
Fonta Kaba
Recently, Human Rights Watch put out a report that found this privatization plan puts residents rights at risk. The big one is that historically it's been hard to evict residents of public housing, but this new program makes evicting people easier. And of course, the prospect of those buildings eventually being demolished and going away altogether is looming over all of this.
- [19:53]
Gene Demby
Yeah, because there's just not a lot of other housing options for people if that happens.
- [19:58]
Fonta Kaba
After Sanji appeared in that promo video for the private landlord push, she had second thoughts.
- [20:04]
Historical Voice
I was actually part of some of the residents who spoke to Human Rights Watch for that report. And I feel like a lot of times we're afraid, you know, like when we speak publicly about our situation, when we speak about our apartments, we're afraid that we might get evicted next.
- [20:20]
Fonta Kaba
When Human Rights Watch researchers looked into eviction rates, they found increases at two different developments that had been privatized. One of them was Botanist Houses in the Bronx where Sanji lives. The other one was Ocean Bay Houses and Far Walkway, the first development to be privatized.
- [20:39]
Brenda Temple
There might be some people that are satisfied and grateful, but all the people that have been evicted as a result of this process, I feel bad for them. Injustice for one is injustice for all.
- [20:51]
Fonta Kaba
That's Brenda Temple. She's watched as her NYCHA complex was split in two. One half went under private management and Brenda's half stayed traditional public housing. And while there's not enough data to prove that privatization leads to more evictions, the private half of Brenda's development saw the biggest increase in evictions, according to the Human Rights Watch report.
- [21:15]
Gene Demby
Yeah. Whew. And if you're housing unstable, like so many poor people in big cities like New York, like losing your home, that's a constant source of worry and anxiety.
- [21:24]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah. And for my family, that was our constant source of anxiety. We bounced around a lot. But ever since we landed in public housing, we haven't had to worry about our rent being raised or like, if we miss a payment by a little bit, we'll be evicted. Like, I know during quarantine, my mom struggled with getting rent paid on time like so many other families, but she knew that NYCHA gives you some leeway, you know, because it's public housing and they're not in it for profit.
- [21:54]
Gene Demby
And that gives people peace of mind, or I guess at least it used to. So I'm just thinking about what would happen if you were living in public housing and you got evicted and you don't have a lot of money, obviously, and you now, now you have to find a place to live in a city where the median rent for a one bedroom apartment is over $3,400 a month. Like, what are you supposed to do?
- [22:15]
Fonta Kaba
That's a crazy situation to be in because there are so few options. So public housing residents have nowhere else to go and their living conditions are often terrible. Some people think the best solution is to tear these buildings down and start over. They think the buildings are too far gone.
- [22:32]
James Rodriguez
We have to, I think, be cautious of even just the narrative that public housing is falling apart.
- [22:37]
Fonta Kaba
That's James Rodriguez again. He's the public housing professor and he actually lived in public housing up until he got his PhD.
- [22:45]
James Rodriguez
I grew up on the Lower east side in Rutgers houses. I was born and bred there.
- [22:50]
Fonta Kaba
He's also an organizer working to preserve traditional public housing.
- [22:54]
James Rodriguez
So, yes, there are repair needs, yes, there are maintenance needs for sure. But the idea that these buildings are like, about to come down, I think that that varies quite considerably from neighborhood to neighborhood or community to community.
- [23:08]
Gene Demby
So just to game out James points, you hear people saying that their apartments are falling apart because of decades of neglect and other funding from the local government, from the federal government, and now you have all these developers who've been in to help fix the problem and the one fixing air quotes. I don't think you really need to be all that conspiracy minded to wonder if all that neglect was maybe on purpose, like, you know, to get things to this point so that private developers could step In.
- [23:38]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah, I've heard that from a lot of the people that I spoke with, like Brenda Temple.
- [23:43]
Brenda Temple
You know, residents have been suffering with months of no heat, months of no electricity.
- [23:51]
Fonta Kaba
They're scared that this might actually be part of a bigger plan to take their homes away and eventually, eventually find.
- [24:00]
Gene Demby
A way to turn them into regular market REIT apartments that go for $3,400 a month.
- [24:05]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah. And for a lot of people, this has been their home for decades. And it feels like NYCHA doesn't really care about what they have to say.
- [24:13]
James Rodriguez
The move to privatize or not is not something that residents have had any type of authority about whatsoever.
- [24:20]
Fonta Kaba
Since 2016, NYCHA alone has decided which buildings go under private management and when. Tens of thousands of residents have seen their homes privatized without their input. But that's changing.
- [24:36]
James Rodriguez
After a lot of resident resistance to this plan, legislators and housing officials have introduced a voting option. The idea that residents can choose.
- [24:47]
Gene Demby
Okay, Power to the people. You know what I mean? That sounds like progress. Give the folks who live there a say.
- [24:52]
Fonta Kaba
Yes, give them a say. And it's complicated.
- [24:58]
Gene Demby
Alfonso, you know, we say that a.
- [24:59]
Fonta Kaba
Lot on this show because it is. Do these public housing residents really have a choice?
- [25:06]
Resident Voice
Something has to be done. Something has to be done.
- [25:09]
Gene Demby
It doesn't matter at this point.
- [25:10]
Brenda Temple
The point is you cannot remain this way.
- [25:12]
Resident Voice
You can't stay this way.
- [25:14]
Fonta Kaba
That's coming up.
- [25:15]
Gene Demby
Stay with us. Gene Fonta, code switch. Fonta has been explaining to me that over the last few years, tens of thousands of public housing residents in New York City have seen their homes handed over to private developers.
- [25:33]
Fonta Kaba
And while some people are happy with the change, there's also been a lot of pushback. So recently, NYCHA came up with a different plan. Instead of stepping in and privatizing more buildings without the consent of the people that live there, for the first time, NYCHA is letting residents vote for what will happen to their homes.
- [25:54]
Gene Demby
I mean, that sounds like a move in the right direction.
- [25:57]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah, but it's not that straightforward, because now it's not just a choice between staying in traditional public housing or having private developers take over. And that's because in 2022, New York State came out with another privatization option. James Rodriguez, the public housing professor I talked to, explained it to me.
- [26:19]
James Rodriguez
The final kind of tactic in this overall privatization push is this new, what they call public housing preservation trust.
- [26:29]
Fonta Kaba
So this public housing preservation trust would basically give NYCHA these new powers, like what the private developers have, and let NYCHA turn all that public housing Into Section eight.
- [26:42]
Gene Demby
Hmm. Okay. Okay. So this trust is kind of letting NYCHA create a little loophole for itself to get access to all that Section 8 money.
- [26:52]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah. And it also allows them to take.
- [26:55]
James Rodriguez
On debt up to $10 billion in debt.
- [26:57]
Fonta Kaba
A lot of it.
- [26:58]
Gene Demby
Uh huh. So under this new third way, NYCHA is a public program that will be able to take on $10 billion in private debt. Huh. But okay, so this is private debt. So what would stop the creditors who hold all that debt from repossessing all these thousands of homes if NYCHA can't pay off the debt? Like, not to be all conspiracy minded again, but that still gets you to a place where private capital might end up owning all this tasty New York City real estate.
- [27:28]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah, and that's a big worry. I asked James if that were a possible outcome.
- [27:33]
James Rodriguez
1,000%. And it's not theoretical. The legislation offers no protection for using the housing as collateral in the event of a default. And the legislation is also quite clear that debt service is their priority. Creditors will get their cut as the primary piece before residents or repairs. And that's something that residents were quite concerned about.
- [27:59]
Gene Demby
Right. Because these developers are not in this game, you know, out of the kindness of their hearts. You also said that NYCHA can take on up to $10 billion in debt, which, you know, that's a lot of money, but these buildings need something like $78 billion in repairs. So there's still a huge gulf between what this plan makes available and what's needed.
- [28:20]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah.
- [28:20]
Gene Demby
And you also said those public housing residents already felt some type of way because these decisions were being made without their consent, without their input.
- [28:28]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah. And now with this new trust program on the table, people are confused and distrustful. For the last few years, residents have been speaking out about NYCHA's decisions.
- [28:43]
Resident Voice
Displace poor people from NYCHA. What private developer do you know that gives a damn about low income people?
- [28:56]
Gene Demby
All right, so just to run this back, basically, if you live in public housing in New York City, these are the three choices on the table for you. The totally private option where a developer just takes over all the leases. Then another option, leave things as they are currently. And the third option is the trust, which lets NYCHA stay in charge with access to more funds, albeit with more risk.
- [29:19]
Fonta Kaba
That's right.
- [29:20]
Gene Demby
Okay, so that's a lot. Those are very different options. And I mean, there are people, some of whom have real deep pockets, who have a vested interest in some of these options, which I imagine is coloring the ways that these options are being presented to the people who live in these homes.
- [29:38]
Fonta Kaba
Exactly. So NYCHA held informational meetings for months to try to explain the options to the residents at no Strand Houses. That's the first development that's going to vote.
- [29:49]
Gene Demby
Can you tell me a little bit about no Strand Houses? Like what? What are they like?
- [29:52]
Fonta Kaba
Well, no Strand houses are deep in Brooklyn, okay. And according to the city, the apartments there are in worse conditions than most NYCHA developments. So I went out there to talk to some of the residents.
- [30:06]
Resident Voice
I'm not gonna say jack bad about it. I'm really, really not. Cause I can't afford to live anywhere else. As bad as situations might be in my building at this particular moment, it's better than living in the street.
- [30:22]
Fonta Kaba
I was talking to people the day before the vote started.
- [30:25]
Hi, I'm a student journalist, and I'm reporting on the vote that's going on and, like, the renovations that are going on in Nostrand. Do you know about it?
- [30:34]
Gene Demby
I barely know. I honestly barely know about it.
- [30:37]
Resident Voice
I personally have not been to the meeting because I'm very busy.
- [30:43]
Gene Demby
Okay, so we know this is how democracy works, right? Like, just because there's some big, important vote looming doesn't mean everybody's paying attention or can pay attention.
- [30:53]
Fonta Kaba
Exactly. But the people that knew about it had a lot to say about why this vote was happening now and what it might mean for them.
- [31:01]
Resident Voice
Like, it all looks pretty, but what is really behind this and what is the fine print? Because some of these people have been here for years, and it's like, why have you just took concern in renovating now when people have been complaining about it for, like, this whole time?
- [31:18]
Fonta Kaba
Okay, so what do you know about the vote? Like, how much do you know?
- [31:22]
Historical Voice
I. I know not a lot, but I don't know a little bit neither. I know that I want to go private.
- [31:29]
Fonta Kaba
Why do you feel that way?
- [31:30]
Historical Voice
I think it's better for us, the working people that want to go private.
- [31:35]
Brenda Temple
My opinion about the voting, I don't trust the trust. You know, in my apartment where I live, for the last eight years, I have been waiting for them to come and fix a wall. But it's not much you can complain about because look where you're at. Honestly sit and ask yourself, when these people don't have the money to pay, who they gonna get the money from? I believe that. That if y'all don't have any money, they're gonna put it on the tenants. So I say stick with section nine.
- [32:07]
Fonta Kaba
How much do you know about the Vote everything. I've been going to the meetings. You've been going to the meeting? Yeah, the trust, they're the best one out of all of them because it's coming to help them to fix everything, not trying to take over. And then voting starts tomorrow.
- [32:27]
At the informational meetings they've been hosting, there are reps from the trust and the developer side trying to explain what it will mean if residents vote for their programs. But at this meeting, no one was representing the third option, the status quo.
- [32:44]
Gene Demby
So there wasn't a rep explaining what that might mean.
- [32:49]
Fonta Kaba
I mean, there was a NYCHA rep that claim. Claim to be the neutral party.
- [32:54]
I'm theoretically neutral.
- [32:56]
NYCHA Representative
You know, I'm nycha. I'm just trying to encourage you to vote here. What I will say is that both programs are going to provide the comprehensive repairs. I know that we say that a lot, but it's kind of the best.
- [33:05]
Gene Demby
Okay, but we just heard the supposed neutral parties only offer up the two privatization programs as options for getting repairs.
- [33:13]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah, that's how it's being framed. But to be honest, that's the reality. For people in public housing, the status quo means things in their house stay broken and repairs don't get made.
- [33:26]
Resident Voice
I really feel that nycha, they were slacking.
- [33:31]
NYCHA Representative
So I think that's a really good point in terms of encouraging people to vote. Right. I think my point is, though, is that we just don't have the money to do the repairs that we want. And so that's why. Why, you know, nycha, we thought to ourselves, how can we bring in the money?
- [33:50]
Fonta Kaba
And just to throw another thing in there, only 20% of the heads of households at the Nostrian Housing project need to turn out for the vote to be binding.
- [33:59]
Gene Demby
Who made that rule? So 80% of the heads of households could just not show up. And however the vote goes, that's the way everything moves forward.
- [34:11]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah. And so, like, you're putting people in a position to vote, which is supposed to be democratic, and, like, just, like, make sure that everybody has a say. But I don't think, like, all the information is given to residents because they want them to choose what's best. Like, everybody's just, like, giving information to fuel their own motive, which makes it even more confusing. Like, you don't even know who to believe anymore. Like, it's hard.
- [34:35]
Gene Demby
It seems like you just described American democracy very broadly. I mean, it seems like the question at the center of this issue is kind of like, who gets to live in New York? Like, public housing was built on this idea that poor people get to be rightful full residents of the city too. But listening to your reporting, Fanta, like, it seems like this is also about this fundamental paradox in the way we think about and talk about housing in this country. Like housing is at once a necessity and housing is also a commodity, a financial instrument, an investment opportunity. And the people who live in these NYCHA homes and have to vote on this are sitting right at the center of that tension.
- [35:19]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah. Here's what James Rodriguez, the housing Scholar, said to me.
- [35:23]
James Rodriguez
The fate of the city, what the future of New York City looks like. A lot of that question is going to hang in the balance of how public housing is able to continue or not continue.
- [35:37]
Fonta Kaba
But there are so many other low income people who aren't even a part of that conversation that are on years long waiting lists to even get into public housing. And for some of them, the status quo would be like a godsend. Like it was for my family.
- [35:53]
Gene Demby
Hmm. If you had to vote on this today, what would you choose? Not to put you on the spot. Are you even old enough to vote though?
- [36:02]
Fonta Kaba
No, almost. Almost like four more months and I could vote.
- [36:07]
Gene Demby
Well, how would you vote if you could?
- [36:09]
Fonta Kaba
Like, I feel like that's one of the things I struggle with the most with this like, situation because, like, overall I know the complex needs repairs, like the building needs repairs, but just hearing about all the things that could happen, it's just something that's scary. You know, there's so many different sides to it. So I think it's hard for me to pick a choice.
- [36:34]
Gene Demby
Like it sounds like you're choosing between bad choices or two not great choices.
- [36:38]
Fonta Kaba
And I feel like if the whole premise of the plan is for apartments to be better and people to live in better conditions, people shouldn't feel bad about wanting those things because the things that come along with it aren't as good as new kitchen.
- [36:52]
Gene Demby
Yeah, like why can't you get the new kitchen and have protections?
- [36:56]
Fonta Kaba
Exactly. Like, why do I have to pick one over the other? Like one thing I need and another thing I need. So it feels like there is no.
- [37:03]
James Rodriguez
Choice if the choices are between privatization and what NYCHA literally calls the status quo. Folks are being really clear and saying things are not going to change in Section 9 public housing. We're not going to work to increase funding at any level to address these issues. And so residents get put into this bind. And it's in many ways a sort of coercive choice between dealing with substandard repair and maintenance issues or moving into a very fraught privatization scheme. So it becomes between a rock and a hard place for residents to make this choice. And I think that's actually quite intended.
- [37:45]
Fonta Kaba
People aren't always going to worry about like the implications of this in the future because they need working water now, because they need a new kitchen now, because they want roaches out of their apartment now. They're going to make the choice that works for them now.
- [38:07]
Gene Demby
So, Fonta, how did the vote go in the end?
- [38:14]
Fonta Kaba
The trust won the vote at Notion Houses by by a pretty wide margin. Almost 60% of votes cast were for the trust. It's going to take a few years to see the effects play out. According to nycha, it'll take up to two years to transfer ownership to the trust before construction and repairs could even start.
- [38:32]
Gene Demby
And we don't know what's gonna happen because none of this has ever been done before. Right. And you can't just restructure housing for maybe a million people in a city and have it just end there and only affect those people, you know.
- [38:46]
Fonta Kaba
Yeah.
- [38:47]
It's one huge experiment in a city where almost everybody struggles to pay for housing.
- [38:52]
James Rodriguez
What we actually need is a movement that takes into account all renters, all working class folks in the city. And public housing is actually at the center of that.
- [39:03]
Gene Demby
Right.
- [39:03]
James Rodriguez
Like the availability of a robust actual low income and working class housing program for renters and tenants in New York City is massively needed.
- [39:18]
Fonta Kaba
But whatever happens, Gene, the motto of traditional public housing, like the kind that was a haven for my family, that's probably going to be an option for.
- [39:28]
Fewer and fewer people.
- [39:46]
Gene Demby
All right, y'all, that's our show. You can follow us on Instagram prcodeswitch all one word. If email is more your thing, ours is codeswitchpr.org and subscribe to the podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast. You should definitely check out our newsletter. It drops every week in your inbox. Sign up for that@npr.org codeswitchnewsletter and we just wanted to give a quick shout out to our CodeSwitch plus listeners. We appreciate y'all and thank you for being subscribers. When you subscribe to Code Switch plus, it means getting to listen to all of our episodes without any sponsor breaks and it also helps support our show. So if you love our work, if you rock with us, please consider signing up@plus.NPR.org CodeSwitch this episode was produced by Carolina Hidalgo, Courtney Stein, Jess Kung and Xavier Lopez. It was edited by Courtney Stein, Carolina Hidalgo, Jess Kung and Dalia Mortada. Our engineer was Maggie Luthor. And we would be remiss if we did not shout out the rest of the code switch. Massive. That's Christina Kala, Leah Donnella, Veralyn Williams, Steve Drummond, Lori Lizarraga and B.A. parker. Big special thanks to WNYC's Radio Rookies program. As for me, I'm Gene Demby.
- [40:56]
Fonta Kaba
And I'm Fonta Cava.
- [40:57]
Gene Demby
Be easy, y'all.