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Luigi Trial In Focus w/ Jordan Chariton
00:49:13
Abby and Mike talk to Jordan Chariton, journalist…
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- [00:00]
A
Jordan chariton, status Coup thank you so much for coming on the Empire Files and chatting with us today, Jordan.
- [00:07]
B
Yeah, thank you for having me.
- [00:10]
A
You have been sleepless. You have a newborn. You have been relentlessly following. Just I don't know how you're doing it, man. It's crazy what Status Quo is doing. I mean, it's overwhelming just looking at your channel and seeing how much you guys are on the ground across the country, just doing things that no one else literally is doing right now in the independent media world. So thank you for that, Jordan. Thanks for keeping it going.
- [00:35]
B
Thank you. I'm likely shaving off a good 15 years of my life, but it was, it was worth it.
- [00:41]
A
It was all, it's all worth it. Well, I, I know that you, you know, Status Coup specifically has been covering the Luigi Mangioni case. So I guess three cases, but just the entire saga. And it's been really incredible to watch, you know, you guys on the ground covering pretty much the nuances of this case because it's a really fascinating case. It reveals a tremendous amount about American society and the class warfare that's bubbling beneath the surface. So I guess let's just start by talking about these three different cases against the alleged killer of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Break them down. And I guess where they stand now and why is it that unprecedented? The defense is calling the cases and the charges unprecedented.
- [01:27]
B
It is just been marked with one unusual abnormal legal thing after another. I mean, I'm no lawyer, but I certainly could Google first off, I mean, regardless if Luigi Manjoni did it or not, it, it's a targeted killing. I mean, these types of things happen, unfortunately, all the time. And 99.9% of those times the federal government does not get involved and charge it would be based on the state where the crime occurred. So the fact that there were federal charges in the first place is very unusual. And it goes to show you that it seems that in this case the, the victim, because the victim was a certain class of people, a corporate CEO making 10 million a year, we're going to have the federal government charge. So that's the first thing that's very unusual that the feds are involved at all. Then you have Trump's, I don't know, sycophant reality TV spokesman, Pam Bondi. She's the attorney general.
- [02:35]
A
How dare you. Show some respect.
- [02:39]
B
The Department of Justice normally takes about a year, sometimes more, to deliberate whether to go for the death penalty. This happened in three months that they decided we're going to go after Luigi Mangione for the death penalty. You know, regardless of whether one supports the alleged action or not. I mean, there are mass shooters that have not gotten the death penalty. I mean, just two off, two off the top of my, two off the top of my mind. The El Paso Walmart shooter of a few years ago killed 22 people. He did not get the death penalty. The Parkland High School shooting many years ago, I believe 20 or so students were killed. He was 19, which is an adult, did not get the death penalty. But Luigi Mangione, they are going after him for the death penalty. And they also, which is again, very unusual. And then you add on that the New York State District Attorney, Alvin Bragg, infamously went after Trump for the porn star hush money stuff he tacked on terrorism. Well, I could tell you, I mean, it's anecdotal, but we've covered several rallies, protests, court hearings for Manjoni. I didn't meet anyone who was terrorized by this action. And Abby, I mean, you, you cover foreign policy, wars. I mean, terrorism's a pretty specific thing. I, I, in his election, shook up
- [04:06]
A
the CEOs for a night.
- [04:08]
B
Yes, it did terrify them. There were reports that New York Governor Kathy Hochul was going to create a special hotline for terrorized CEOs.
- [04:18]
C
But what like to do what to call for like emotional support or if they're feeling they are being terrorized, to like report harassment.
- [04:27]
B
Yeah, if they feel enhanced threats.
- [04:29]
A
Remember when Elon Musk said that he was like being terrorized, but it was like, I mean, it was just like extreme paranoia. He was just like at the gas station. Then it turned out that he terrorized someone. Remember he like made up that big
- [04:40]
B
dramatic event, but also he also kicked somebody off Twitter for posting the public light logs. Yeah.
- [04:47]
A
Let's talk about before you get into the chain of custody and all the problems about, you know, what happened to him at the Miranda rights and all that. But let's talk about these charges really quickly because Pam Bondi said that the death penalty was necessary because he committed, quote, a cold blooded assassination that shocked America. But to your point, I mean, it seems like it's much more terrorizing and shocking to Americans when school shootings happen, when just innocent civilians are gunned, mowed down in the middle of like a grocery store. To me that's, that's much more egregious. So it's crazy to not seek the death penalty for those people. And obviously the death penalty is horrific. It's Barbaric. It's insane that this is still practiced in this country. But the terrorism charges, I mean, it's so clearly cartoonishly stupid to actually try to slap terrorism charges on this person.
- [05:38]
B
I want to also be clear because it's easy in this moment of, you know, Trump and I think capital F fascism to forget that there were Americans being charged with terrorism before Trump. I mean, there were cop city protesters in Atlanta, Georgia. For those that don't know, there's been years long protests to stop a militarized police compound that's being built on protected public forest land in Atlanta. Of course, happening under Democrats in control in the city of Atlanta. Long story short, as protests heated up, I mean, they started charging protesters, peaceful protesters, with domestic terrorism in Atlanta for protesting cop city. We've seen environmental protests, standing rock and other protests. They're trying to charge protesters as eco terrorists, claiming that, you know, they're shutting down critical American infrastructure. So there's, this has beyond, been beyond a slippery slope. We're redefining terrorism before Trump 2.0, but accelerating to this. I would say, you know, terrorism to me and, you know, there's, there's definitions, but beyond the emotional terror you're trying to inflict, technically, you know, intended terrorists want to inflict as many casualties as possible. In the alleged notes, again, not proven that it was Manjoni's notes or a so called manifesto, but in the reported notes that they found on him, he specifically said, yeah, I tinkered around with a bomb, but then I decided on a targeted killing because I didn't want any innocents to be killed. Well, that, that would be the opposite of normal terroristic tactics, which is I want to inflict as much, as much carnage and death as possible. So again, it's a, if he did it, it was a targeted killing. This happens unfortunately, all the time. I mean, in New York City, just petty gang violence. You could, this happens all the time. They are not charged with terrorism. Right.
- [07:44]
A
Like his defense attorney said, I mean, 377 people were murdered in New York City last year, but only one is treated like Bane.
- [07:52]
B
Right. And when, when you're talking about Bane, I mean, they're, they're bringing him off the, the plane with a seal Team 6 level parade of, you know, armed, armed goons. You got Eric Adams, the mayor of New York there for the, the walk of shame or whatever, the perp walk. So honestly, it's, it's very clear that they are throwing the book at this man not only to make an example out of him if he did it, but to basically assuage and smooth over the worried nerves of CEOs across America. Not just healthcare CEOs. I mean, the lines have been off the hook after this murder at private security companies. They're being bombarded by calls from Fortune 500 major corporations wanting enhanced security. So, I mean, it just goes to show you, there's so many layers of this. The predatory for profit health insurance industry, the capitalist system, that certain victims are, you know, obviously elevated and protected more than others. But at the end of the day, to me, why we're covering this so much, it's not about Luigi Manjoni. I mean, obviously people. There's a lot of people who support him. This is about this. This is beyond a slippery slope. Now, if they're going to charge this man for terrorism, you know, watch out, because that is redefining terrorism. And they could go after anyone for terrorism, whether or not you've killed someone or not.
- [09:26]
C
Great point. I want to ask you about a couple of things that may end up, you know, working to the great advantage of the defense. You know, the first you mentioned that perp walk. You know, the way that Mangione was treated in the media and by the state of New York, by the police, by the May. There was. This is the guy. We got the guy. This is the guilty guy. And just announcing that to the world and then doing this big public display, how much is that going to impact the defense's ability to get evidence thrown out and things like that? And the other thing is because they've chose to go with this wild charge of terrorism, which is gonna be difficult for the prosecution to prove because, you know, it's not terrorism. And so now they have. They've dug themselves this hole of. Now the burden is on them to prove this is terrorism. And if they can't prove that, that means that they could have gone for maybe a lesser charge in that category, that now they took the risk of going for the higher one. And so how much can that help, you know, the case for Luigi walking from some of this?
- [10:31]
B
Yeah, I think there's a lot of layers. I mean, for anyone that's watched Law and Order, some of these shows, sometimes you overcharge to the point that it is a domino effect and screws you on the lesser charges. And there's also the concept that's been kind of talked about of jury nullification, which, and basically Cliff Notes, is just like a jury thinks that the defendant committed the crime, but kind of thinks it was warranted. So Lets them off. I mean, frankly, some, some people think that's what happened with O.J. you know, other high, high price, high figure defendants. So I think in this case, there's so many unusual abnormal steps that I think the defense could sway even one juror that, that Luigi Mangioni was highly prejudiced against from the beginning. It's not just this perp walk. There was like two or three made for TV documentaries.
- [11:24]
C
Right. Like the week of.
- [11:27]
B
Yeah, like pretty much within a month or two of this killing where you had Eric Adams, like the top investigative cop in New York City, revealing evidence in the documentaries before they've handed it over to the defense, which is the discovery process. So, so, and then you have the actual arrest itself, which I don't believe a pretty well known defense lawyer, Karen Agnifolo Friedman, who's Manjoni's attorney, would just lie in court documents. It seems that they basically, you know, illegally searched, arrested him without reading his Miranda rights, without having a search warrant, seized his backpack for about 20 minutes. So that itself, anything they secured, this was when they arrested him in Altoona, Penn.
- [12:18]
C
Right. So the way that's supposed to work is anything that's not properly obtained as evidence should not be admissible in court.
- [12:24]
B
Court.
- [12:24]
C
Right. And so if the defense is able to win on that, which maybe, you know, the status of that, that would be pretty big because that would mean things like the murder weapon and all of these things are. They can't actually use. And so is there a real chance of that happening?
- [12:39]
B
You know, I'm certainly not a lawyer, but I think so. I think so. Because at the end of the day, it was kind of like mall cops in Altoona, Pennsylvania, arresting him in a McDonald's. They kind of did like a kettle around him. For those of you who have protested, where you can't escape if you're a protester, even if you want, even if you're being given a chance to leave by police, they kind of square you off and block you in. He was blocked in. They told him you are not. They literally said, you are not under arrest. So it seems that those procedural missteps could have a domino effect. And also I don't think we should discount. I mean, these are human beings on a jury. So we are in a anti establishment moment, sometimes for the good, sometimes for the bad when you bring in somebody like Trump. But I, from what I've seen the defense reading their motions, they are smartly putting the health insurance industry on trial. I don't think you could find Unless they just find, you know, 12 Bernie Madoff types to serve on a jury. I don't think you could find 12 jurors anywhere in America, much less New York City, that don't have some type of issue story, bad experience with the health insurance industry. So if that is part of their defense, which based on the court motions, based on some of the things his lawyers have said in, in the public, I think that's going to be part of the defense. I think they have a real chance for some of the evidence to be thrown out. Also, it recently came out like, you, you just can't make this stuff up that Mangioni and his lawyer were eavesdropped on. So a paralegal for the New York, the Southern district of New York just accidentally, you know, stumbled upon a call between Luigi Mangione and his lawyer. And instead of like, okay, I'm gonna hang up now, they listened to the whole thing. So I just think there's a lot of procedural things that could invalidate some of the evidence. And I mean, you have, this is going to be a big, big trial, I think. I mean, obviously there's a new crisis, a disaster every hour with Trump. So it could kind of be, I don't think, swept under the rug, but it could be marginalized compared to all the hectic nicks with Trump. But it will certainly be a big case in New York. I think you're going to have that kind of made for TV, Nancy Grace type shock jock coverage. And I don't know if he could get off completely, but I do do think, I don't think, I don't think they're going to get him for the death penalty or the worst charges.
- [15:13]
A
And so because they're trying to charge him with the death penalty, is that something that the jury has anything to do with? By, I mean, they know that. So when they do, if they did the guilty charge with that, you know, that might also deter a guilty charge if they're saying, look, I think this kid did it, but I don't think he should be sentenced to death.
- [15:30]
C
Right.
- [15:31]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's what I was talking about in terms of the, the jury nullification concept. And so the jury, even, even some of the top lawyers that are constantly on CNN stated, we, you know, think that, we think that this was overcharged.
- [15:44]
A
Yeah. Well, really quickly, in the uk, all these pro Palestine journalists that are being rounded up because there's no First Amendment there, the Palestine action people, that on the flip side, there's a lot of people who are Being let off by doing the vandalism and stuff to elbit systems and stuff like that. Because there is this caveat in British law that actually allows, like people to. It's like jury nullification is codified to the point that you could just be like, yep, these are all guilty. But they all. I agree with you.
- [16:11]
C
If you convince the jury that you did something good even though it was illegal. Well, really, I mean, jury nullification is like the whole jury agrees, like we're not going to convict them, but you really only need one juror for like a hung jury that get like a mistrial, then have to start the whole thing over again. And you know, you know, you mentioned how the defense is going to be putting the health insurance industry on trial, which is really interesting. And maybe we could in a minute talk about of Brian Thompson. So, like, how they are going to talk about Brian Thompson specifically as, you know, the innocent victim, as the prosecution is going to put it. But really quickly, let's talk about obviously some of that is going to be building sympathy around Luigi Mangione and the little bit that we know about him. You know, one of the things, first
- [16:52]
A
of all, do we know he's the guy, right?
- [16:54]
C
Well, he's the one on trials. We're definitely. And so, you know, there's something that will be, I'm sure by the prosecution used as this is motive, this proves that it is him. But could also have that opposite effect of just building more sympathy among the Jerry. And I'm talking about his own health problems. And what we don't know a lot about, correct me if I'm wrong, is his actual struggles with the health insurance industry. We know that. You know, his Twitter profile picture includes the X ray of his back, which shows like pins in his spine. You know, he recently wrote a letter on the 28th of last month where he was responding to someone that says, how do you remain so chill? And he wrote, I spent a year and a half living on a broken spine that I could feel sliding around every time I stood up, walked or rolled over in bed. To exist in such a state, your physical being being split in two as an endless physical and mental war within the self. And so, you know, those kind of things I think, you know, people could find sympathetic as versus like, oh, this is why you were compelled to like, go nuts and go kill someone who you felt was responsible for your suffering. But something that could end up being relatable and working to his advantage.
- [18:04]
A
But it also. Can I just jump in here? It's Just so crazy to think that this guy did it because of just how, how everything cascaded. Like the monopoly money. I mean, was any of that really. Did he really do that? Like the monopoly money in the park and all that? And then it was like, wait, is this really the guy who just got caught in a McDonald's? Like, the whole thing was just so weird.
- [18:24]
B
Well, I think also one thing that it remains to be seen, it's not clear that he did this specifically, if he did it specifically because his biggest beef was with the health insurance industry. It seems based on some of the reporting, some of the things that his beef was with capitalism and the health insurance industry kind of checked all the boxes, which it does for me. I don't know about you. I mean, I don't, I don't have as severe as him, but I've had two back surgeries before. The first one I could not walk for two weeks. I mean, there's a very thin line between physical and mental anguish. And if you have severe back issues, not just back, any physical issue, it could really destroy your life and destroy your mental health. We do know based on his background, he came from a wealthy family, so it doesn't seem that the issue for him would have been access to care. It seems like his family could have paid for it. But based on some of the social media posts of his that have surface, it seems that he was denied surgery for potentially a year because doctors said you were too young. He was in his mid-20s, I believe, to have a spinal fusion or something like that. There's accounts of him surfing and, you know, his back tightened up so bad that he was on bed rest for weeks after that. Accounts that he could not have a relationship or feared intimacy because of his back. So there's clear whether whether or not it was he couldn't afford it or not, it seems like he could afford care. It seems like he was denied care for whatever reason by several doctors. And then there's a lot of the books he read and some of his reported social media postings. Not that he condoned what, Ted Kaczynski.
- [20:16]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:17]
B
Not that he condoned the actual murder that Ted Kaczynski did, but he agreed with Ted Kaczynski in terms of the harmful evolution of technology. He talked about how it's basically zapping and sucking our individual agency out of all of us, which I kind of agree with.
- [20:36]
A
Well, it was he. Yeah.
- [20:37]
C
I mean, he's definitely an all over the place guy. You know, it's like he's Definitely not like a left wing ideologue or something like that. I mean you can just look at his Twitter and like he. One of his recent tweets before he did the thing is like retweeting like Peter Thiel, you know, doing weird tweets about.
- [20:52]
A
Well, that's the thing is they growing
- [20:54]
C
the population of Japan by like bringing back karate. Like, you know, he obviously is all over the place and not what you would expect from what those. I mean, if it was. It's fun to kind of like relive like the chain of events, right? Cause there's. We know that the first it was the assassination happened and then we knew that who the victim was and there's the video that was out and it's like, ah, there's no way that this is some like.
- [21:15]
A
Well, I love how everyone was like a professional hit job. Like everyone was like, this is a total like professional man. It was like James Bond's like no one could.
- [21:23]
C
It was a mob hit. Like this guy was involved in some shady dealings or whatever. But then the bullet casings came out and then it was like, oh, this was, was related to the fact that he was a health insurance CEO. But then I think once we've identified who the, the suspect is and then you get to see stuff he's written and social media, it's like, well, it doesn't exactly fit into the box. It's very American. Really. It's very American. And all over this guy.
- [21:48]
B
By the way, professional hitmen don't typically just like hang out of a McDonald's in plain sight like a week or two later.
- [21:56]
C
Go camping for a few weeks, man, let the heat die down.
- [21:59]
B
But I do think what I mean, obviously more will come out on the specific motivations, but based on, it's kind of like a smorgasbord. He did have issues with the health insurance industry. According to United. He did not have United Health Care. But in some of the writings that are ascribed to him, he pointed out they are the biggest health insurance company in the country. He pointed out they are involved in a lot of fraud which I've reported on. And he had an issue with just the entire, the entire capitalist system. I think he called in, in one of the alleged notes or something like that, you know, bean counters, etc, and at the end of the day, I think the fact that he is wealthy, but if he did this, kind of did it on behalf of the downtrodden, I think that could work to his advantage in terms of a jury. And I do think you are not hearing this on CNN or, or the corporate media. It's going to come up in the defense that Brian Thompson, in addition to his lavish salary while he was CEO, United Healthcare, you know, put their foot on the gas in terms of using AI to wrongly deny millions of people healthcare at a 90% error rate. That's not murder. That UnitedHealthcare was, I mean, just blatant. I mean, the Wall Street Journal, of all places, reported this. They were blatantly just making up sicknesses and making up fake diagnosis for patients, their own doctors to bilk Medicare out of more money, Medicare Advantage, the Department of Justice. I'm not holding my breath, but Trump's Department of Justice opened up an investigation, of course, civil, because none of these people will ever go to jail. So if there's a settlement, they'll have to pay, pay, you know, pennies to UnitedHealthcare. So there's a lot of things that could come out, the United Healthcare has done under Thompson and just in general that I think could sway a jury. I mean, murder is murder. But again, I think there's a lot of things working at his advantage. And by the way, you know, again, jurors are humans. You don't think they're going to see, I mean, just the massive amount of people outside that courtroom supporting Manchoni. You don't think they're going to, I mean, there's going to be, not from cnn, but elsewhere, there will be the healthcare horror stories in independent media and on podcast when this goes to trial. So I think it's not at all a straight line that he will be convicted. I also, I, you know, this is part of my frustration. I just wish in the beginning there was. But obviously, like all things, you know, these stories kind of fall out of the spotlight. We've tried to keep it in the spotlight. I just wish that this would put the health insurance industry on trial because I think a lot of people I've interviewed out there, yes, they support him, but they're not out there just for him. They're out there right, because the whole system is killing.
- [24:57]
A
Well, let's, let's talk about that because I think that's where this is all going. I mean, first of all, like, like the alleged killer, you know, Luigi Man Mangione said if this really was his letter, quote, the parasites had it coming. The fact that all of the people who knew him, I think, are most shocked about him being like a class traitor. He was a valedictorian, he was well off, his family owned, all These businesses and they're just like, I can't conceive why someone of his privilege and status would do this. Which is just unbelievable. I think that's the most perplexing part to these people. It's like, oh yeah, we didn't expect one of us to, you know, go and, and do this. But I guess the most important facet of all of this is how the hell are the insurance companies responding to this? Because I remember when it happened, there was the other insurance company that was, that had just announced the anesthetics that were, that they weren't going to pay for anym. And everyone was like, hold on, hold on. You're going to wake people up in the middle of surgery and be like, okay, you guys approve of pain now? Like for the rest of the anesthetics to continue the surgery. Like, everyone was like, what the fuck is going on? All of this happened. And then as you're saying, it seems like all they've done is really anonymize themselves and pay for, you know, lavish security as a result, have, have as any policy changed at all.
- [26:12]
B
I think they're just building a, you know, thicker, taller moat around their castles, unfortunately. I mean, think about it. During the worst of COVID a once in a century pandemic, the Democratic Party's solution was cobra. If you're not familiar, that's a big privatized scam. So if you lose your job, you could keep your company's health insurance and pay 600 for the privilege. That's, that was, that was their plan. Not like a short term public option, not short term universal health care. So I think that, you know, the health insurance companies know like they've purchased the government, Trump, Biden, Newsom, you know, both sides. And that even during a pandemic, they're not going to do anything to, I mean, actually reform health care. I mean Obamacare was a Republican plan that the insurance industry loves. So I think the insurance companies, it's like BlackRock, the big oil companies, they're just kind of waiting it out. I think that's their mentality. Wait it out. You know, let them have their protests. We have. The media is not. The media is going to put Manjoni on trial, not us. The, the Democratic Party is already kind of running the 2020 campaign over again, like back to normal. Let's get rid of Trump. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but they're not running on like Medicare for All, like the only one I've even heard in the Democratic Party right now is Tim Waltz of all people say, hey, you know, I don't think, you know, even, even, even if we, even if we could get rid of Trump, I don't think the people are going to accept like nibbling around the edges of Obamacare at this point. So I think the insurance companies, United Healthcare specifically, instead of doing any type of reform, they're just doing like a full, full frontal assault on social media users. I don't know if you saw the story of this doctor in Austin, Texas who like mid surgery was called out of surgery on a cancer patient by UnitedHealthcare trying to deny that surge, that patient's overnight stay. To that doctor's credit, she went viral, she went public and went viral like putting United Healthcare on blast. And UnitedHealthcare then, you know, hired a very high priced defamation lawyer to send her a seven page, you know, scare letter to that we're gonna bankrupt you. She has not buckled. But that was UnitedHealthcare's response. UnitedHealth Group, which is the parent company of UnitedHealthcare, their CEO just stepped down for, quote, personal reasons. I don't know what those reasons were, but from what I could tell, nothing's really changing in terms of the big insurers or the politicians. Because if your opposition party is a Democratic party that is literally committing insider trading on healthcare stocks, I don't think you're gonna be able to reform this.
- [29:16]
C
Yeah, you know, I really, if people haven't seen it, I really encourage people to watch Sicko Michael Moore's documentary because you know that the story there is, this is not about uninsured people. This is about people with health insurance who are paying out the ass for health insurance. And you know, the prior point you brought up about mangione being well off. And so even if you're well off, if you can't just afford to pay out of pocket for all your six figure or more medical costs, you still have to deal with health insurance companies. Even if you're paying over $1,000 a month for health insurance, they're still gonna deny you stuff. Like my mom, my parents aren't wealthy by any means, but my mom has like, well, she has United Health Insurance. Oh God. And you know, she pays, they pay a lot of money for their health insurance. Or my dad gets it through his job. And so like they have what you would consider like high quality health insurance coverage, but she's been fighting with them for like a year just to get an MRI for her back because she has back issues and to start this process of how you get treated, you have to first get an mri. And United is just denying her ability to even get an mri. And just that constant, like fighting, even if you have, even if you are paying for the care or have the care for your job or something like that. And so the health insurance industry has just gotten so absurd that even if you have it and even if you're on the high end of the care in their tier system and things like that, you're still completely effed. And I think that's, you know, all of these things you're mentioning is probably why the media coverage has changed quite a bit. Jordan, I want you to comment on what you saw in terms of. There was kind of an intense amount of media coverage in the beginning, and then things kind of quickly shifted. And of course there continues to be coverage because it's a sensational trial. But a lot of things have been reined back and kind of, what have you seen the corporate media in terms of their response to this case?
- [31:08]
B
I mean, I'm not surprised. I've been on the ground for 10 years and when the corporate media is on the ground covering something, I am covering, it's night and day different in terms of the framing. But for example, I was out there in February, I believe, covering his court appearance. And you had cnn had their, I guess, investigative reporting, a reporter, and he was basically, I just, I heard him because we were pretty close to each other. Basically the only questions he was asking was to female people out there.
- [31:38]
A
You know, you're just trying to hit on women.
- [31:42]
C
No, but it's like, do you think he's hot stuff?
- [31:44]
B
Yeah. Framing them as fangirls and cultists. And do you support murder? I mean, by the way, there was plenty of men. There were plenty of men out there, plenty of seniors out there. I don't think they're out there because they, you know, have a hard on for Luigi. So. And then CNN ended up, they did a documentary on like rising extremism and they had a segment from that protest I covered where I heard him way.
- [32:11]
A
Yeah, so instead of going to the Zionists, you know, hurling glass bottles at women, they're going to the Luigi Mangioni rally.
- [32:19]
B
Don't, don't forget the Zionists throwing literal poop at protesters, which we covered. So. And Jake tapper, you know, CNN's golden boy, he was aghast at some of the protests. Like he just couldn't believe that they were out there for this man, not understanding the nuance that they're not out there specifically for him, they're out there against the system. You know, Chris Cuomo, you know, cnn retread wherever he's on now saying, you know, I myself, I might have to sue a healthcare company because they're denying care right now, not understanding that most, most people cannot sue the health insurance industry. So the coverage has basically been from elitists who have really good health insurance or if they are denied for whatever reason, reason they could, you know, foot the bill out of pocket. And they've basically been putting people who support Manjoni or support his right to a fair trial or aren't crying tears for Brian Thompson, they're putting, they're basically making them out to be the villains and not the health insurance industry. And let's point out, I mean watch cnn, watch msnbc, watch Fox News, look at political playbook sponsored by Humana, sponsored by Humana, sponsored by Pfizer, sponsored by this health insurance company. They also have the pharmacy benefit managers which is another unholy middleman.
- [33:49]
C
Good.
- [33:50]
B
So there are make, they're all making money off of this.
- [33:53]
A
Well, I think it's the detachment, I mean the schism continues to obviously widen more and more, especially with the Gaza genocide. Just the complete, complete alternate reality that we're being force fed from our political leaders and media officials. It's the same thing with this. It's just this complete detachment from the on the ground reality of the mass suffering and death caused by the health insurance industry. Like you said, from privileged elites sitting there in these air conditioned offices that have the best health care in the world and so do the politicians.
- [34:23]
B
I, I gotta tell you, and maybe this is just for my, my lens having reported across the country the last decade, but I really, I mean JFK said it, you know, if, if you make peaceful resistance impossible, violent, you know, revolutions inevitable. So whether you are someone who doesn't believe in violence or not, I think there reaches a breaking point. You know, Chris Hedges has talked about kind of like late stage capitalism, dying empires. I think there reaches a breaking point where just people have nothing left to lose and violence comes. And I think you could see more of that because one thing that I have been pleasantly surprised by with this story and part of why I'm covering it so much, I mean I've covered it all. Elections, communities being poisoned, you know, water, air, soil, just a lot of different stuff. There is very little that I've covered ever that I see all political sides coming out in agreement. I mean even like Flint, which is water, you would Hope you would hope that water is not a partisan issue. Even that, like, not everyone agreed. In this case, when I've done videos on Luigi or I'm on the ground covering this, I have like hardcore right wingers coming out supporting him. You even saw like, I think some of the MAGA media people like Ben Shapiro and these people, like doing videos attacking Luigi and their supporters were like, hey, Ben, this isn't it. This isn't it. So I think you're seeing across, across the spectrum, left, right, libertarian, no labels, whatever. People are kind of coming together on this. I kind of think you're starting to see to a lesser degree, I could tell you we've covered some of these big fight oligarchy rallies. I mean, not everyone loves Bernie, but I could tell you it's not all leftists out there. Yeah, it. There's Republicans, there's. I covered a Tesla protest. They're all like, Hillary Hillbots, Hillary people out there.
- [36:22]
A
This is like, it's a pressure valve. I mean, and I don't. That's the thing. It's hard to envision this oligarchy tour. Is it about, you know, buying into the two parties? I don't think that's it at all. I think people are so desperate to release some of this anxiety and emotion because. But the thing is, coupled with the activism fatigue for the last two years, fighting a genocide under liberals, Jordan. And so how do we now coalesce and try to fight actual fascism? I mean, it's so completely overwhelming. But I guess how are the people reacting that you've been all over the country, you're the people working for status group and all over the country, you guys are talking to actual people in rural America about all of these issues where just, I guess, just what is the general zeitgeist right now? If you could pinpoint it, anti establishmentism and hatred of the political establishment.
- [37:14]
B
I think the general zeitgeist right now is just. Bernie used to say enough is enough. And it was like cute and stuff. But I don't think people were like, ready to actually carry that out, if that makes sense. I think, I think the general zeitgeist is enough. Enough is enough. And something's gonna change because you have like, I mean, across the spectrum, it's not just health care. You got like Republicans screaming at town halls. Tax the rich. I mean, if you didn't know that there was a Republican town hall, you would think it's like a Bernie event. You have them screaming at, you know, these people, the Doge people. That are cutting Medicaid and cutting everything under the sun. You have Republicans even getting more involved in the environmental stuff because their land is being seized by eminent domain. You have Republicans screaming, which shows that, you know, people tend to only care when things affect them, screaming that their 401ks were destroyed when Trump did his little tariff stunt for a week or two. So I think people all across the board are getting very, very fed up, because no one, I mean, aside from like the 1% and the really well off, there's really, like becoming less and less of an actual middle class in this country. And when people are being squeezed so much and you add on AI, AI is replacing jobs now if you haven't been laid off. A lot of people are messaging me that their hours are being cut. They went from benefits to like, you know, some BS benefits package. So I think the zeitgeist really is enough, is enough, and something's got to be done.
- [38:52]
A
I don't know if the status quo can't hold.
- [38:54]
B
The status quo is death. And honestly, at the end of the day, I mean, Democrats can say what they want. They managed to, like, blame the left for every little thing under the sun. But Trump ran a horrible, horrible campaign. I mean, he was literally out there talking about Arnold Palmer's dick in the final stretch. I mean, he was incoherent, some of those rallies, and he, and he won, yes, in large part because of inflation and those things. But I also think people are just. The bottom line is if. If you. All you do is run on, democracy is at risk. But most people don't actually believe we have a functioning democracy. What you get is phony populists, authoritarians, you know, megalomaniacs like we have. And I think the Democratic Party is mistaken. It doesn't matter if you get rid of Trump through just he can't run again, or according to him, he's going to try to run again, which the Supreme Court, who knows, maybe they'll let him. The genie's out of the bottle. Trumpism is here to stay, I believe for a while. The key thing is who is going to be the person who actually, I think Bernie. What Bernie was offering in 2016, I think was actually popular across the board. I just think corporate media's influence was still significant enough to. To water it down, to hoodwink people. But I think corporate media influence has been so reduced now. I think the rise of independent media, some good, some not so good. I really think that now is the time for that populist, progressive message. Not just in terms of elections, but all things labor worker strikes, union organizing, tenants groups. I think the problem is, like you said, Abby, there's just a serious activist fatigue, not just in terms of the Palestine protests across the board. I mean, people have been fighting in this country, whether it's civil rights, Black Lives Matter, lgbtq, trans, healthcare, climate. I mean, the list goes on and nothing has been changing. And we're all human. At a certain point, you kind of reach your. All right, I can't do it anymore. And to be clear, Democrats don't want to hear this, but I said it at the DNC because I was having deja vu to 2016. I was on the ground in 2016 at the Democratic Convention. They created an alternate universe like they always do, to block out the protest outside. And it was just caviar, champagne and Hillbots inside. I said, she's going to lose. I knew it right then and there because the Bernie movement was basically treated like piss ants on her heels. And I said, she's going to lose because they have pushed away the youth, they have pushed away the burners, and she's basically trying to like, woo Jeb Bush type voters. And I said at the DNC this year, they're going to lose because they wouldn't even let a Palestinian on stage
- [41:52]
A
to advocate voting for Kamala.
- [41:55]
B
Exactly. And they were pretending that the significant protests there were not happening. So I think there's just so many cascading things between the genocide, the health care, I don't know what's going to happen. But I do think, honestly, whether it's the Luigi story or, you know, the chaos with Trump and the Democratic Party just deciding once again, well, let's just move.
- [42:18]
C
Right? Yeah, yeah. And, you know, there was, I'm sure you saw this CBS News study that was published this week that, you know, found really what that reality is. They found that 60% of US households cannot afford a, quote, minimal quality of life, which is pretty extreme because that's a large, you know, that's a. That's a majority. A clear majority. Yeah. And I think that, you know, there's so much you can pin the election of Trump on in terms of exploiting just culture war bullshit, you know, feeding into just real right wing reactionary and racist sentiments in this country as they've existed since the beginning of this country. And so tapping into that, but there being a significant portion that got him elected that was just pure economic anxiety and anti incumbency, whoever it is, I don't like the way things are now, and this 60% not able to afford a minimal quality of life, that's not something that's improving anytime soon. In fact, the projections would be that that is something that is going to continue to degrade. And, you know, this kind of plays into this, you know, freak out among CEOs and the big capitalists about the assassination of Ryan Thompson. But it's like, this is the world you wanted, guys like you wanted. A world where you could just gut everything, bleed everyone fucking dry, do the worst thing you can do to people, which is make them live in pain and suffering and actually die so you can squeeze some more pennies out of them. That's the world you wanted. And guess what? In a world, world where that happens, there's going to be acts like this, like people being not that often, but these are the things that are gonna happen in this world that you wanted to build. And so this is your bed and you gotta lay in it type thing. But it's like, this isn't something that's improving. And I think any assessment of where this country is at from any angle, it's a fucking downhill slope for a while. And it's hard for anyone to see any kind of optimism. And, you know, it's just like imagining where we were like 20 years ago, right? And like Y2K year two, not even 20 years ago, but 25 years ago, right? There is this kind of like optimism and hope about this, this new millennia and all of these things. And then, you know, it is very much the opposite. And I think the view of most people in this country now is one of extreme pessimism and despair. And of course, that can lead in dangerous directions, like the Trump phenomenon. But there's other potentialities as well, which hopefully is things can go in the right direction from it all. But, yeah, just overall pretty grim.
- [44:58]
B
I think the stat you just gave is kind of the whole ball game, honestly, because I think that stat, which basically over half of the country is, like, struggling and, or, you know, poor, to, like, paycheck to paycheck. Well, that goes hand in hand with why there's been such a reduction in influence of mainstream media. Because if you're constantly told by mainstream media, we have the strongest economy in the world, when you're constantly told by politicians. The Democrats say it when they're in power, the Republicans when they're in power. We, you know, GDP is up, the economy's doing great compared to other countries. You know, we're the envy of the world. But, like, you know, you're working a full time job, then Ubering, then giving blood plasma. Well, something's not connecting there. And I think the lived experience now not just of the most downtrodden, but even middle class people, people that used to be able to take a vacation once in a blue moon, they can't anymore. You turn on the system, whether it's the healthcare industry. I mean, Wall street has never been held accountable for 2008, 09, the, you know, predators and criminals that, you know, sent us to Iraq and all these other places. I just think it really is kind of this mixed bowl of, or a bunch of straws being the final straw, if that makes sense.
- [46:25]
A
And I kept. Why didn't this happen before? I was shocked that it hadn't happened already. I'm surprised, surprised at all the soft targets of, of killings and mass murder. It's like I, I'm shocked at the degradation of society and the reaction to it. And, and I, I guess I. When this, when the Luigi Mangione thing happened, I was like, I'm.
- [46:46]
C
Yeah, well, that's why they're building the cop cities. Yeah. I mean, they know it's a trend that is going to ramp up, one
- [46:52]
A
that went through the radar and now they're gonna really lock down and make sure it doesn't happen again. Jordan, you have been doing such great work. You have a new book out about Flint. We're gonna have to get you back on just to talk about that because I guess, let me guess, doesn't have clean water yet, right?
- [47:09]
B
Eleven. Eleven years and counting.
- [47:11]
A
Holy, what a show. We're cooked, man. But no, honestly, people like you continue to give me hope and motivate me and my work and status. Coup is definitely a standard bearer of independent journalism. Really great job, man.
- [47:26]
B
I'll just say to throw it back to you, I will say you were out there fighting the fight like abroad when Gaza and the plight of the Palestinians was still kind of a marginal issue in America. I mean, you were out there before these protests, you know, before this latest genocide. So kudos to you because I think it's easy as an independent journalist to cover things when they're at their worst and everyone's paying attention. But I think it's brave and important to cover it when it's not necessarily breaking in the mainstream, but when it's breaking in reality. And you knew for a long time that this was heinous and crimes against humanity, what's going on there. So, so kudos to both of you.
- [48:10]
A
That was, that was our new promo. But no, honestly, crazy. 11 years and counting. And Jordan and Status Coup have been really one of the only people out there still covering Flint, so. So everyone, please become a member of Status Coup. They're doing very, very crucial work at such a crucial time. And a lack of left, grassroots, independent journalism actually holding power to account. Jordan, Chariton, we have to get you back on. Thank you so much for breaking everything down with the Luigi Manioni case. We will continue to follow it closely. Thanks so much, man. Appreciate you.
- [48:41]
B
Thank you, guys.
- [48:47]
A
Sam.