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Empire Files
The Cult Came Home To Roost: Why Tulsi Gabbard Resigned
00:52:59
Mike Prysner takes Abby Martin through the explo…
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- [00:03]
A
Those of us who are the spiritual children and grandchildren of His Divine grace, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada would all be lost orphans were it not for his compassion and mercy. My Guru Dev Rla Siddha Sripananda Paramahamsa My Guru Dev Rla Siddha Sripnanda Paramahamsa has said that while we will never be able to repay the debt of gratitude that we all owe Rla Prabhupada, what we can do is be pleasing to him by always taking shelter in the holy names of Krishna. Jai Sri Krishna Jai Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada welcome to the Empire Files podcast. This is Abby Martin and Mike Preisner. Hey, so we haven't done a podcast since we basically announced the big release of Earth's Greatest Enemy Mike about a month ago. It's been on Vimeo, YouTube for members and our Patreon ever since. And it will be released on all streaming. Well, not all streaming platforms, but Apple TV Prime Video as well as Watermelon plus on July 4th, America's 250th. So everyone check that out. Do watch parties with your family. It's going to be epic.
- [01:19]
B
Happy birthday.
- [01:20]
A
Happy Birthday, US Empire. So definitely celebrate by hosting a watch party of Earth's Greatest Enemy and Clockwork Orange, your family. But Mike, you were inspired today, particularly because of this new article that just came out basically on a beat that you've been passionate about as a side. Tulsi Gabbard. Tulsi Gabbard. And not just Tulsi Gabbard, but Tulsi Gabbard's cult that underpins every single thing that Tulsi Gabbard does that you've been on the tip of for quite a while. And everyone's kind of just not focused on this. People were treating her, you know, as like a Russian agent, and it was always the wrong critiques. And you've been just kind of crying from the rooftops about how the fact that she's a member of a cult, an anti Islam cult, for so long, and you've been the source of a lot of news about this and stuff. So I guess talk about why you wanted to do this podcast today and just give us a preliminary rundown of the article before we dig into it.
- [02:18]
B
Okay, So I did the first podcast about Tulsi Gabbard back on the Eyes Left podcast with Spencer Rapone in 2019 when she was wading into the Democratic primary, and that covered mainly her fake anti war branding and how it wasn't consistent with things that she had said, but also her upbringing under the tutelage of a virulently anti Muslim guru who I argued was still very much a part of her Life. And in 2021 I went on the QAnon Anonymous now QAA podcast and did a really deep dive into those cult backgrounds. And just a year or so ago when she, when her book was published, her, her so called memoir, I did another Eyes Left podcast with Julian Field and Ed and Germantem about how it wasn't really a memoir and it was that kind of focused on her inexplicable complete transformation into a MAGA person from this kind of fake progressive or whatever she was before. So yeah, so I've been, you know, on this beat for a minute and I think this article, I've seen a lot of people saying this new article from Washington Post which is titled Tulsi Gabbard Her Guru and the Mysterious Messages that Helped Shape Her Political Career by journalist John Swain. Some you may remember John Swain, he's the guy that in 2024 he was investigating Science of Identity Foundation, Tulsi Gabbard's cult and he was in Hawaii and he was going to different cult leaders doors and they published like a picture of him on like ring camera and Gabbard and Trump war room and all the MAGA media were just like circulating his photo being like this guy is trying to is a leftist agitator or whatever. So that's, it's that journalist. He's been working on this for a long time. I've seen a lot of people say this isn't a big deal because we've all known this stuff because it focuses on her being puppeted by Chris Butler, the head of Science of Identity Foundation. But this is big because it includes tens of thousands of pages of documents provided by someone who was until very recently a member of the Science of Identity foundation who did digital strategy for several of Gabbard's congressional campaigns. But more importantly was Chris Butler's personal secretary for a period of time, especially in the 90s, which is when he began this political project. And she released them to this journalist at the Washington Post. So she gave him access to tens of thousands of pages of emails and memos, including thousands of pages of private transcripts of private lectures that Chris Butler has done. And these, they were making such efforts to keep this stuff secret that these files were all encrypted, like these emails and memos that were being used to cultivate and direct Gabbard from Chris Butler were even encrypted. But she was the inner circle, so she decrypted them for Washington Post. And so it confirms a lot of. I mean it confirms everything that people had suspected about this. To me, it's pretty much a bombshell as we'll get into in this episode because it shows the degree to which that is true, which even surprised me. And I will say I need to make a big mea culpa. You could say that this is vindicating or validating for me that I have been right all along that Tulsi Gabbard is this bad, malicious person. I am now a Tulsi Gabbard sympathizer. After reading this article, I have no more hate for her. I have nothing but compassion and sympathy. It is clear to me that she is a victim of abuse of grooming since childhood by this crazy, insane, egomaniac man. And I think, as you'll see as I take you through this stuff, Abby, she doesn't seem like even a willing, enthusiastic in any way participant. She just seems like a complete automaton controlled by this guy. Because since she was in the womb, she has been controlled by this man. And it's an incredibly sad article.
- [06:34]
A
Mike's new philosophy is cog instead of zog Zionist controlling everything. It's Chris Butler's engineering. Tulsi Gabbard, she no longer has agency. It's all.
- [06:44]
B
It's so sad. No, there's nothing damning towards her in this. She doesn't say anything. It's just her saying, yes sir. Whatever you say, sir. It's so sad. I think that she, she. I am very passionate now about trying to create an intervention for Tulsi to rescue her from the cult. I think people who are friends with her who are not in it, like people like Meghan McCain, you know, people always standing up for her. People in the right wing media sphere. If you care about this person, you need to try to rescue her from this very darkness.
- [07:18]
A
The thing is, they're all in a cult. It's like she's just in a subsect of a broader cult.
- [07:22]
B
She's being controlled by a man, a very crazy man.
- [07:24]
A
That's true, but these people are already in like the ma machinations of the broader MAGA cult. So there's no way to. I mean, the thing is, Tulsi is such an empty shell. None of this surprises me. We always knew this was true. Where do we even start? Can we just first preempt this really quickly. We don't want to go back and, you know, lift up all of this about what, you know, what we went through.
- [07:47]
B
Mike, I always thought that, too. I always thought that, too. She's an empty shell, but. So she was made into an empty shell, and she's been suffering her whole life.
- [07:55]
A
Okay, Mike, I don't know if I want to continue. I didn't. You.
- [07:58]
B
Well, I think.
- [07:59]
A
Okay, Mike asked me to do this podcast on her false pretenses. He said, let's. Let's rip Telsey Gabbard to shreds. And all of a sudden you're doing this big preamble about how she's sad. Look, I don't.
- [08:09]
B
I was.
- [08:10]
A
Maybe I will. I didn't read this article because you told me that you were gonna, like, shock me. Shock an army. But I. Look, this just further validates the fact. Look, I'm less mad at Tulsi Gabbard. I'm more mad at the sycophantic cult members who basically legitimized her entire fake ass brand that was so obviously phony. I'm a. I'm a peace. I'm a peace dub, but I'm a war hawk when it comes to, like, all that was just so dumb, running against Bernie in the primary. Oh, but she was really Bernie's friend. I mean, all of it was just so transparently insane. I'm mad at that. That whole contingent of people who really fell for it, you know? And look, so.
- [08:52]
B
You know, yes, you're right. It's not Chris Butler's fault that she ended up in positions of power within the Democratic Party, within the MAGA movement, within the Trump government. That was the fault of, number one, the Democrats.
- [09:02]
A
Yeah.
- [09:02]
B
Who let them. Who overlooked every single obvious red flag about her past, in particular her association with Chris Butler and made her the rising star of the party for no reason other than she checked a bunch of boxes of identity that they liked.
- [09:18]
A
Yeah, you're right. It's the Democratic Party establishment's fault.
- [09:21]
B
Right. And then once she became. Once she started to reveal, well, what I would say were her true politics, but I don't think she has any true politics once she became, you know, an anti Democrat person instead of. And it's in particular during her Senate, most recently, her Senate confirmation hearings for dni, Chris Butler and Science of Identity foundation were not mentioned once in the entire hearings. They focused on Russia and Putin and Assad and loving Dick. So it's like they completely dropped the ball. And the media and the R did that. Too. I mean there have been great journalists who have covered this from this correct angle. But what was repeated over and over again on the news was Putin puppet stuff like that.
- [10:00]
A
Why? Okay, I know that there's so much to unpack here, but why do you think that was? Because it's not like there was some sort of like discriminatory conflation with like criticizing science of identity. It's like what, like it's a white guy. You know, I, I could see if it was like some like a Hindu, like, I could see like white journalists being like, you know.
- [10:20]
B
Yeah.
- [10:20]
A
Not wanting to like, it's like a like white guy cult who co opted all this Hindu, you know.
- [10:28]
B
Yeah, it's. Yes. Split off from here. It's a Hare Krishna guy who for a long time has been doing this. No, it's. Yeah, it's. They just suck, I guess. I mean it was just, it was always, I mean that's what always blew my mind about it. It was such an obvious way to question her legitimacy. And it was just like, yes, there was some good reporting on it, but it completely went under the radar and it never was. I mean, the fact that it was not mentioned once in the Senate confirmation hearings when they were out to get her, like they were trying to find the weakest things about her to delegitimize her from this and not once was it considered. Well, maybe she is running the country's intelligence agencies. She's going to be reporting to this guy who no one knows anything about and who has crazy positions and you know, can we trust this guy? Is what they should have been asking, not, can we trust her? Well, it seems so obvious, but nobody, nobody did it. No one picked up on it.
- [11:21]
A
Yeah, and I remember, Mike, when you started reporting on this, it was just like it was always in the background, but it was never directly proven. That's why these documents are so important, is because there was, I think a Vanity Fair article, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe you know the author because you were in contact with a lot of these people because you had a lot of sources as well along the way of ex science of identity, people who were giving you intel. So you're directly involved in this story. But I remember back when that Vanity Fair article came out when she was running and it was about how her sister, it was like everyone around her was still in the cult. Yes, but Tulsi claimed, oh no, like that's crazy to think that I would be stage managed by this guy. But it was like her volunteer base the phone bankers, the campaigners. It was like everyone but then campaign manager. Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, her sister.
- [12:10]
B
Yeah.
- [12:10]
A
Right. So I. It was just like this just solidifies everything we always knew. But it's sad that it had to take the direct emails to really get this because it's like, yeah, dude, you know, usually when you leave a cult, you're not. The cult excommunicates you. Like, that's. That's a characteristic that drives cults.
- [12:29]
B
Yeah.
- [12:30]
A
And even.
- [12:30]
B
And even when that came out and her. When she ran for president the first time, she was like kind of openly, like still a follower of Chris Butler, but kind of argued that like, oh, she's not really in that group, but she still considers him her like spiritual leader. But when she rebranded maga, and in her book she says, basically says that she's Christian and she doesn't even really have a religion. She's just like a multi faith and she doesn't mention. But like it's a complete rebrand religiously, which she was known as like the Hindu in Congress. She got sworn in on the Bhagavad Gita. Her. Her Bhagavad Gita that she brought to Iraq with her. That she gave that to Modi when he was elected. It's like, so her Hindu identity has first Hindu woman, member of veteran woman of Congress or whatever she used. Like, she was always leaned on that,
- [13:10]
A
which she abandoned that. Yeah. Oh, my God.
- [13:13]
B
For love of country. When she was auditioning to be vice president, she basically says that she's basically Christian. Yeah. Wow. That went out the window real quick.
- [13:24]
A
Wow.
- [13:24]
B
She's so. But I mean, others do the same. I mean, like Vance kind of did the same thing.
- [13:27]
A
Yeah. But this is way crazier.
- [13:29]
B
He wasn't previously. I'm the most famous Hindu in America. Yeah.
- [13:32]
A
This is way crazier. Yes.
- [13:34]
B
And so I think. But going back to what you said, like how you called her an empty shell and what have we always known about Tulsi? And this article explains so much. We've always known that something was off. Yeah.
- [13:44]
A
Yeah.
- [13:45]
B
Something was not right. Her sincerity, her affect, the way she spoke, the way she answered questions. Something was off.
- [13:53]
A
Yep. Every time she would do a debate or do any sort of reading, even her little Instagram videos, it felt like it was being scripted and repeated. Like it felt like something that you memorized and then just dictated. Yeah. Always there was no originality or like belief, sincerity. Like you're saying that came through ever.
- [14:14]
B
So this, this article confirms that something was off. There's a reason why she seemed like that.
- [14:22]
A
That's Chris wearing a Tulsi's skin. Skin suit.
- [14:26]
B
Yeah. And so, you know, just to recap, like what I had been saying this whole time was that when she was first on the scene that this is insincere and inconsistent with her past beliefs of being a right winger and being kind of raised and under the tutelage of this hate monger, you know, the homophobic. The QAA episode is really that we're. I'm not going to get into the cult stuff here. If you want to learn about the cult background and it's severely anti gay and anti.
- [14:48]
A
We'll give us a wrap up of like a minute long. Just explain why this is such a horrifying cult.
- [14:53]
B
It's just this, because Hari Krishna, weird guy who's like, he has this like, it's like a, it's like a yoga based whatever, like Hare Krishna type group. But he's like very hateful. He's like super anti gay and super anti Muslim. And on the surface it's all like, you know, beautiful, we going to meditate together, whatever. But he's actually this crazy egomaniac. There's like money scamming involved, like all this stuff. But also, but also he's like kind of. Yeah, like they have this like secret school for children in the Philippines for some reason where there's like reports of abuse there. There's all. I mean it's a huge web of stuff. But the main thing is that he's kind of this just evil guy. And many ex members have said like the lectures that you hear from him once you're inside the cult are just insane, insanely homophobic and anti Muslim, but in this weird, obsessed, like grotesque kind of way. And that's a core part of his beliefs. But you know, he's also just, he wants power. He's just like any other of these cult leader guys. He wants more power than he has even though he commands, you know, these thousands of people. Stuff that had been, I had been arguing before and others that, you know, all the way from when she turned on Hillary Clinton to all the way through her DNI Senate confirmation hearings, that the focus on Russia and Assad or this or that. Everyone was missing the big thing, which is the association with the Science of Identity foundation who had this insane egomaniac cult leader who has been documented trying to gain political power using his devotees as a vehicle since the 90s. He literally started a project to get. Not him running for office or Anything but getting his most loyal servants to run for office to act as a vehicle for his gospel.
- [16:27]
A
Wait, did he. Who else tried? Because there was a couple other.
- [16:29]
B
There was a bunch of people in Hawaii. Chelsea Gabbard's dad. Yeah, he was in like the state senate. And that Gabbard had been groomed since a child precisely for that role since she was a teenager. And that was the real liability was putting Chris Butler in power, not putting this woman Tulsi, you know, like thinking
- [16:46]
A
about even like her ukulele, like songs with her husband and stuff. Like it all. Like even that seems like she's like in a trance. It's like she seems like such a fake person through and through. It always. It's like everything feels like an act, even just her daily like living because she does not have an original like bone look. I mean, God, that's so pathetic.
- [17:10]
B
People who are victims of. Of childhood abuse in whatever form that comes, are able to recover and move on and lead healthy and fulfilling lives. But the thing is, she never exited the abuse. She had never exited it. She's. She's has been a line throughout her entire life.
- [17:26]
A
Even aesthetically, the white suit. The white.
- [17:29]
B
Yeah, she always wears a white suit. Cause that's Chris Butler's uniform.
- [17:31]
A
And also very cult D. Yeah.
- [17:34]
B
And he picks out her outfits for her for when she goes on the debate stage. Wearing all white is her trademark. Because it is his trademark. That's not covered in this article. But there you go. Okay, so getting back to this article. Cause we gotta see what it says. The way that he got access to these documents is because this woman, her room name is Rebecca Slatsberg. She was a former SIF insider. She even used to live with Tulsi Gabbard's parents who are Science of Identity royalty. And so that shows how close she was to the top leadership of Science of Identity. She had a falling out with SIF over the organize how the organization covers up sexual abuse. And she even was apparently housing a child runaway who was being sexually abused by a parent who apparently was favored by Chris Butler in the cult. And this corroborates stuff that I've heard from other ex members of Science of Identity, including people who are victims of childhood sexual abuse themselves. But you know, that has nothing else to do with the story except for that's why this person was disgruntled. And there's a bigger story there. And so I hope other journalists uncover the sexual abuse stuff under Chris Butler's leadership. So hundreds of emails over the course of her career, which Butler threw his. You know, Butler doesn't use computer or email. He dictates everything. And so a lot of these memos and messages I've gotten.
- [18:53]
A
That's what I was gonna say. I'm surprised that so much was written down, but as it wasn't.
- [18:57]
B
Yeah, no, he's served. He has servants doing everything, cooking, doing his laundry, probably carrying him around, cutting his toenails and grinding them up to put into devotees food, which is documented by Vanity Fair. He of course, can't touch a computer, but he dictates everything. And so she has this enormous access to this trove of stuff.
- [19:16]
A
Crazy dude. It's way worse than. Than being a Putin puppet.
- [19:19]
B
Yes.
- [19:19]
A
Like, it's like a crazy, like mentally ill cult leader who's like, how was this not discrediting?
- [19:28]
B
And so it basically shows that Butler, through his inner circle of lieutenants, directed Gabbard on speeches, policy positions, proposals, new legislation, even like Butler telling her what to tweet and when. And this is while she's in Congress. So like, as she's in Congress, he's saying, propose legislation that says this. And she says, yes, sir, salute. And I'm going to propose it the next day. Many of these emails do not even include Gabbard herself. They are discussions between Butler, his right hand man, Gabbard's parents, who are highlighting people in the cult, discussing what she needs to do and say and everything. Gabbard's not even involved. She's not a part of the discussion. She's waiting for the orders to come down. And the ones that do include her show no contribution from Tulsi, does she? This isn't like workshopping, messaging or ideas. It's just her giving yes sirs. And so the ones that do include her, she's not actually involved. She's just on the receiving end of orders.
- [20:34]
A
This kind of makes me want to watch her actual Joe Rogan appearances, because I can't imagine for three hours that's
- [20:39]
B
why she's so bad on the cuff.
- [20:40]
A
Like, how does someone unpeel Tulsi Gabbard's
- [20:43]
B
brain when she's off the cuff? She's trying to think of what she has been told to say by Chris Butler.
- [20:48]
A
That's so stupid.
- [20:49]
B
I do have to make a disclaimer right before the story published because this journalist had been reaching out to science of Identity for comment right before it published and they realized that they were effed Someone named Sunil Khamenei, who's considered Butler's right hand man, he actually responded and said, actually, I'm the one responsible for all these emails and memos. Chris Butler had nothing to do with it. Which is obviously Chris Butler telling him to say that. And then John Swain, the journalist, did some digital forensics and all this stuff to show that it's clearly Butler. But that's just officially. It's not many.
- [21:19]
A
Where's our Netflix stock, dude?
- [21:21]
B
And I will also say that, ooh,
- [21:23]
A
this should be our next documentary.
- [21:26]
B
It could. I've been.
- [21:27]
A
I mean, no, no, literally, like, why? It's like, we're always like, ah, it's so obvious someone's already done it. But, dude, no one.
- [21:33]
B
Well, cult docs are big.
- [21:34]
A
Yeah. But like, Tulsi is the story really unpacking Tulsi, because this achieved.
- [21:41]
B
This cult achieved a huge amount of power in America through Tulsi. She was head of the dni. She was head of the dni. And so, yes, there's plenty of cults out there that make juicy Netflix documentaries, but none have actually intentionally gotten one of their members into a very high position of power. And she was almost vice president. Right. Let's remember that she was almost vice president. She was never almost president, because that's not really possible because of her. Whatever's going on with her. But she was almost vice president. She was very, very close to being president. Vice president.
- [22:11]
A
Yeah. She almost jammed her way.
- [22:13]
B
So these memos and emails that we're going to be going through, a lot of them focus on her time when she was in Congress. But the article ends with John Swain saying, I still have access to a Google Doc coordinating all this stuff for Gabbard that was active up until we had stuff in it as of April last year. And also coordinated messaging when she resigned as DNI for all the fake social. Because it also confirms all the fake social media accounts like SIF members are directed to create, like many social media accounts. And then a centralized way they go out and defend her and comment on articles and be active on Twitter that that coordination is still happening.
- [22:51]
A
Oh, my God. Wait, hold on. Oh, my God. This just dawned on me because this happened 10 years ago, Mike, when we first were criticizing Tulsi for getting into the anti war space and trying to hijack it. And it was so obvious, but we were piled. It was like Michael Jackson. It was the exact same thing as Michael Jackson.
- [23:08]
B
Yeah.
- [23:08]
A
You say anything about very clear, like, obvious thing, and it was like totally just artificial, like bots just swarming you and trying to correct the record online. And it was so weird at that time. I couldn't ever have imagined that it was all fake. But it's so clear. Clear that it was like not all of it, but it's like that's how it works. They just want to give the overwhelming.
- [23:30]
B
With Jackson, it's. There's an estate a lot of money and they are directing a bunch of farms to go after people that point out the fact that Michael Jackson was a stone cold pedophile. And just similarly with Gabbard. Yeah. You have this crazy guy who's directing this large organization of people to use his words in ways that is coming from one place. But these coordinated campaigns. But also that was crucial in kind of building her career totally. Because when she was this rising star, this kind of false popularity online is what was a big part of it.
- [24:01]
A
Oh my God. And she was basically the golden child of the cult. It was like everything was. It was attentive to her, toward her and fostering her. Yes. Brand.
- [24:10]
B
But really it was Butler and all the.
- [24:12]
A
Oh, no, no. I mean, I mean using her as a vehicle for Butler and all these
- [24:15]
B
people worship of her. It's really a worship of Butler.
- [24:17]
A
Exactly.
- [24:18]
B
They could give a. About her.
- [24:19]
A
Yeah.
- [24:19]
B
All the science of identity people.
- [24:20]
A
It was all fake. Yeah.
- [24:21]
B
Yeah. And one other thing before we get into these. It's. It's another thing that struck me was like, you know, Butler has always had this dream of getting in political power or having his. His positions put through a surrogate, but he's just kind of a fucking idiot. One of the quotes. So like this guy doesn't even have. He doesn't even have any good. It's like, what is even your. He's just kind of all over the place. Well, like there's this one quote I read from the article. Quote, the memos covered a dizzying range of matters. I found 173 page dossier from 2014 titled TG Issues. Tulsi Gabbard Issues. These are the issues that she should take. It compiled advice for Gabbard on a dozens of topics, from taxes to the mysterious disappearance that year of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 and more. The document was peppered with imperatives. Start introducing bills, it said in one. Need to get on this. Hit hard. Stop being weak, it said in another. And so it's really. He's like, apparently that Tulsi's idea to like split Iraq into three countries, like a lot of this stuff, he's just. It's just so dumb. And like, oh, I got an idea about Malaysia the missing Malaysia aircraft that you need to like. It's just. He's just sitting there thinking of shit off the top of his head and being like, yeah, put that in Congress. You know, this guy is actually just a total idiot. He has one of the lectures, secret lectures that he has that John Swain got access to. He also claims in the lectures that the CIA and spy agencies have been bugging his home since he was a child.
- [25:46]
A
Chris Boss, like a gang stalking.
- [25:48]
B
Yeah. But also like, maybe the CA knew he was like the voice of God on earth and has been like bugging him. And then he called the intelligence agencies, he said that they use psychic powers to control people and stuff. So it's also. Hold on.
- [26:02]
A
Well, so Tulsi probably got the inside scoop, right? Like she's finally the director of the dni. It's like, dude, okay, give us the scoop. Tulsi.
- [26:08]
B
That's funny.
- [26:09]
A
CIA tapping Chris Butler or not, you
- [26:11]
B
had all these, you had all these people in the Senate and in Congress trying to delegitimized her to run the intelligence agencies when they could have just found that the guy she answers to is like, these are all crazy. Like, better.
- [26:23]
A
He's like Saul Goodman's brother. He's just like, you know, lining his house with like fucking. No. Doesn't he actually do that? Like put tinfoil all over his windows? Or am I there's.
- [26:30]
B
Yeah, he's big on like air purification. That's not that good, people. No, all his servants have to wear like full masks and like surgical suits around him. Like there's a bunch of. Yeah, he's a big germaphobe to abusive degree where he abuses his staff for failing to clean the air filters on time and stuff like that. And actually a former person who worked on his political project in the 90s, quoted to Washington Post, she said, he wanted to rule the world. And so he doesn't have ideas, he just has ambitions of power. And like, that's like a typical crazy man. That's. They don't have anything useful to say. They just want to be in charge, but they don't know what to do with that. Anyways. Okay, so let's get into some examples of how.
- [27:18]
A
Give me the worst you got.
- [27:19]
B
We're just going to go through some examples of stuff that she's known for that just came from Butler. Quote, one memo I noticed in particular was from 2014 and was labeled Call with T. The unnamed speaker in that document, Argris Butler, argued, argued that to avoid delays in medical treatment, veterans should be able to get care at any hospital and be reimbursed by the Department of Veterans affairs. And they should be able to do so without first obtaining government approval. So Chris Butler's great idea is to outsource VA care to private companies without approval from the va. Great, great job. And he writes to Gabbard, actually put forward legislation, get it done. Three weeks later, Gabbard endorsed a version of that policy in an op ed, but she omitted any discussion of prior approval by the va. The key idea that distinguished from the unnamed advisor's plan from remedies pushed by other Democrats. Soon after the op ed was published, there's the email quote, he was pissed that she didn't say that they should get private care without pre approval. A month after he said to do this, Gabbard introduced a bill that explicitly made it so veterans could get private care without pre approval from the va, which is a stupid thing. And it outsourced. It's very bad for the va. But. But also it's just dumb idea that came from Gabbert. He said, do this. Other Democrats are already doing it. And he's like, do this legislation that's different in this way. And then she just follows it. So it's another example of her in power putting forward things. Why does he even care?
- [28:42]
A
Yeah, it's like, why are we wa. So she's wasting. It's like, why is this even like allowed? Like people, you could just do anything and just waste everyone's time in Congress. Jesus Christ. We had just this maniac. Hold on. Can I just ask you this? Do you think that this was any. Do you think that this expose had any part to play in her resignation at all? It seems a little convenient.
- [29:05]
B
So he has. They knew that this story was coming since May 20th.
- [29:11]
A
Oh, dude.
- [29:11]
B
And they. And he's been working on it for longer, but they knew that it was going to publish May 20th. She announced she was resigning May 22nd. So it's possible.
- [29:18]
A
Oh, dude. That explains everything. They would never have been able to justify keeping her.
- [29:23]
B
Yeah, and her cover was blown with all the MAGA people who she's been convincing she's Christian.
- [29:27]
A
I mean this would have been finally the breaking point where the mainstream would opened up, I think.
- [29:32]
B
Yeah. So this is. It basically came out of.
- [29:33]
A
Which is even funnier because honestly, as I was doing tiny bit of research for this episode, even like good public, even like left leaning publications were trying to paint this like inner turmoil because her like American isolationism like going against. It's like she doesn't want Iran war. She, like, knows that Trump will, like, destroy her if she comes out publicly. But this is, like, why she's renting. It's like, no, dude. Because this article was coming out, right? Oh, my God.
- [29:59]
B
Yep. In 2014, quoting from the article, Butler pressed for her to propose legislation penalizing countries with citizens who had fought for the Islamic State and to issue a statement about it. Quote, get it started in the morning. Don't dick around. That's how. That's how he talks to her. John Swain. I found that Gabbard released a statement the following day. A week after that, she introduced her bill in the House. And so Butler will just be like, here's an idea. Don't dick around, idiot. And then, yes, sir, statement in the morning, and I'll start working on the bill.
- [30:31]
A
It's so fascinating. It's like Butler is such a crazy man that he just oscillates between all these weird ideas. And it's like, it explains so much about her because her ideas popped up out of nowhere. It was like she was this pseudo Democrat, surfer chick environmentalist, and all of a sudden she was like, Syria? Like. Like, we shouldn't go to war with Syria. Like, I'm anti regime change. It was just like, oh, shit. Like, where did this come from? Like, who are you?
- [30:52]
B
Yep. There's examples of her repeating Butler verbatim. So from the article, quote, an October 12, 2015 memo labeled CNN Wolf Blitzer Talking Points contained this language about reports that she had been asked by Democratic leadership not to attend the presidential debate. It's not a. It says, quote, it's not a boo hoo. I don't get to go to the party situation.
- [31:14]
A
Wolf.
- [31:14]
B
I dug up by her appearance that day and found that she had used the line verbatim. The issue is not about me saying, boo hoo. I'm going to miss the part. Boohoo. I'm going to miss the party. So it's like the same, oh, my
- [31:24]
A
God, that's so sad. Oh, no.
- [31:28]
B
In 2014, quote, here's a. Here's an example of him telling her what to tweet. Quote, important to do. Must tweet around 9:00am Quote, Barack Obama, please show mahalo to Kabani. Kurds need airstrikes and heavy weapons. And then 9am she tweets that exact tweet.
- [31:44]
A
Wait, what? She said that the birds needed weapons?
- [31:47]
B
Well, because it's like the anti isis.
- [31:48]
A
No, no, I know, but. Oh, yeah, because she's a hawk on terrorism.
- [31:51]
B
Yeah, that Was one of her.
- [31:54]
A
That was one of her hockey. Yeah. That was an example of Chris Butler forcing the Hawk.
- [31:59]
B
Yeah, Cool. Even like, you know, things she was known for, like breaking with Obama on saying like, Islam is not the cause of Islamic extremism. It's is, you know, like this idea that.
- [32:08]
A
No, she said Islam was the cuz.
- [32:10]
B
No, no. Right. Obama said it wasn't.
- [32:12]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [32:13]
B
And this was her big break of the Democratic Party.
- [32:15]
A
Yeah.
- [32:15]
B
So from the article, quote, a January 2015 memo documented an unnamed advisor's proposal, Chris Butler to attack John F. Kerry, then Secretary of State, for saying violent activity by the Islamic State and Al Qaeda was rooted not in Islam, but in alienation, poverty, thrill seeking and other factors. If that were true, the advisor said sarcastically, the way to deal with terrorists would be to give them a trophy, a big hug and increase their self esteem and give them a good paying job. In a Fox News interview later that day, Gabbard repeated the Carrie quote and gave a similar mocking punchline. If that's really the cause, then the solution would be to give them a trophy, give them a hug and give them a good paying job. And so it's literally like these. And these are the things she became known for. Right. Was like her being hard on this or that. It's like it just straight from Chris Butler's mouth.
- [33:01]
A
That's like, it's just such bad talking points too. It's so babyish, like boomery, like, I don't know, I just can't.
- [33:07]
B
She's being puppeted by a guy who's bad, who sucks.
- [33:11]
A
It's, it's a miracle. It's actually like again, if we weren't in the system that we're in, it's like we have Barry Weiss really failing upwards, flying to, you know, overseas, cbs, cnn, these once revered media institutions. And it's like you could point to Tulsi Gabbard as the same example of someone literally succeeding despite all odds. It's like these are the worst ideas at the worst talking point. She's so obviously fake and phony, but because of just the utter sheer horrifying ineptitude of the Democratic Party, like this obsession with identity politics, they like elevate her and just negate all of these red flags. It's insane.
- [33:49]
B
You know, and you could, you could think that, hey, she was in Congress for a long time. I'm just cherry picking or the, the John Swain is just cherry picking where she said stuff that went in these memos. So to combat that, he did an anal him and his colleague went through 32 TV interviews she did.
- [34:07]
A
Oh, my God.
- [34:07]
B
Cross referenced them with talking points in the memos and found that out of the 32, on 24 occasions, Gabbard used language in the memos verbatim. And in eight other instances, she used different words but promoted the same ideas. 8/24 is 32. So in every single TV interview, they looked at most of them, her words came verbatim from Chris Butler, and in the cases, they weren't verbatim, she said, what he's. Maybe because she was remembering it wrong and said essentially what he was saying. Everything came from him. Everything that she was saying on TV that she. They were cutting.
- [34:42]
A
How is this not, like, a bit? How is this not, like, the biggest. Yeah, I don't know. This is so insane. If. If you were, like, a member of a. If you're, like, secretly a member of, like, a Communist party and it came out that the leader of the Communist Party was, like, dictating to the director of the DNA, it would just be, like. It would be the biggest scandal in the country. This person would be, like, locked up for, like, treason. It's like, how is this. How is this crazy, homophobic cult. How do. How did they elevate this person in charge of the spy agency? It's like, not barely, like, a peep.
- [35:12]
B
Yeah.
- [35:13]
A
Barely a blip on the radar. It's just like in. In the Washington Post, and it'll probably be, you know, gone tomorrow.
- [35:19]
B
Yeah.
- [35:19]
A
I guarantee you no media is talking about this because they don't want to even, like, atone for why they probably.
- [35:24]
B
It's their fault she became sincere, saying she ended up where she was.
- [35:27]
A
What's she gonna do, dude?
- [35:29]
B
Well, look, well, she. I mean, she's good that she's in MAGA because they won't care about this stuff. No.
- [35:33]
A
Yeah.
- [35:33]
B
Although Laura Loomer is talking about her now over this and saying that Trump really screwed up by picking her and that he needs to have better.
- [35:39]
A
Well, that's exactly why she didn't throw Trump under the bus. I mean, what she did as director of the DNI is even more servile and pathetic. I mean, it's. It's pathetic what she did as. As director.
- [35:50]
B
She sold change wars. She literally provided the. The false intelligence to justify regime Change war.
- [35:57]
A
No, literally. I mean, where do you even want to go from here? I mean, we could talk about so much. Yeah, keep going.
- [36:01]
B
I have more for you. Yeah, I think we've established that she was, you know, not just Like a, a hypothetical, like puppet mouthpiece. But it was just, it was all, all him and nothing came from her. It appears that this part is, this is where I started to get real sad. These, these, these pieces I, I had heard from ex Science of Identity members and it has been reported from ex Science of Identity members that Chris Butler is, is mean and abusive. That he screams at people, he insults them, he treats people horribly. That he's not, you know, his, he's guru. No, he's this meditation guru, you know, Hawaii. Hawaii, you know, barefoot in the sand, doing Yoga, playing guitar.
- [36:44]
A
9am get that tweet done.
- [36:46]
B
Yeah, but he's like this, this slave driver. The abuse and cruelty that she's subjected to is where I started to really sympathize with her. So we're going to read some examples in these documents. Here's an email from 2015 after she responded to Obama's State of the Union address. So she doesn't. So sometimes she speaks for herself. I will say she tries.
- [37:09]
A
And then Chris corrects her, puts her in her place.
- [37:11]
B
Yeah, she gets told, quote, in the first place, nobody gives a shit what you think about his State of the Union speech. Unless you have something to say of anything interest, you're not even trying. You've become really intellectually lazy. In another, she was described as chicken shit and mealy mouthed for her comments on a policy proposal. Quote. Another memo circulated to members of the team on the eve of a Fox News interview documented a 75 minute call between unnamed person Chris Butler and Gabbard that went until 11pm According to the transcript, quote, now all you need is a good night's sleep knowing that no matter how badly you fuck it up, that me and Krishna still love you. Like, she's going into a Fox News interview in the morning. Chris Butler's on the phone with her for two hours the night before telling her what to say and goes, I know you're gonna fuck up, but I still love you when you fuck up the interview tomorrow, you idiot. Here's the last example of the cruelty quote. A June 2014 memo emailed Gabbard ahead of a TV appearance was direct. Don't forget to smile. Don't do the eye thing on YouTube. I found a clip of Gabbard on CNN the following day. At several points, she opened her eyes wide while speaking from the email, quote, well, from what I saw, she's doing the fucking eye thing again. So she always seemed uncomfortable in interviews. Like, she never seems like for someone who's running for president and Doing all. It's like she seems very uncomfortable in front of the camera. And it's because she knows this fucking guy who's abused her. Her whole life is watching it and scrutinizing every little mannerism she does. It's like, of course you're gonna suck being on camera when you're like under this scrutiny.
- [38:50]
A
Tulsi Gabbard's husband is like the ultimate cuck. He's like, he's like completely. I wonder if he like. I mean, the whole thing is so insane, Mike. I can't. I mean, I know that you feel a little bit bad for her, but I still don't. Do you have anything that will actually make me feel bad for her? The I thing definitely does not make me feel bad for her. Maybe it's because I've been just. It's such a misogynist world that like this, this. It's just like, yeah, I still think she's a war criminal.
- [39:15]
B
I hear you. You know what? The last thing on her mannerisms is that, you know how like we say she seems fake.
- [39:21]
A
Yeah.
- [39:21]
B
Quote from. Quote from the memos. Quote. It's like she's trying to express something artificially. I don't feel anything from her. It's more like she's kind of remembering talking points. They were saying Butler and his lieutenants were saying the same thing about.
- [39:34]
A
Wait, who said that? Did Butler say that?
- [39:36]
B
It's. It's from. It's from either him or one of his top people, but it's them. It's in their discussions when they are controlling her, complaining about her performances.
- [39:46]
A
What more needs to be said? And honestly, now I do feel bad because there's no better insult in the world than being told by your cult leader that you aren't selling it.
- [39:56]
B
Right? Yeah.
- [39:57]
A
Holy man, that is so pathetic.
- [40:00]
B
I don't know. The level of control revealed in this is so much that like. Do you think Chris Butler's the reason she joined the army in the first place and like sat her shipped off to the war because he thought it would like, help her long term political career. He's been involved for the entire thing. Why do you think it started when she got in Congress?
- [40:17]
A
Right? Yeah. Did she ever explain. I mean, her reasoning for even joining the military was always really wishy washy. Her whole life has been, well, it's
- [40:24]
B
to go fight the terrorists.
- [40:25]
A
Yeah, you had to go fight the terrorists.
- [40:26]
B
But like the level of control he had of her as an adult, like in her like 30s, it would make sense that like he Was involved in these decisions earlier in her life. Yeah. When she was running, because she was already, like, in office. When she went to the war, because she was already in, like, the state Senate and stuff, which was his project. Butler's project.
- [40:47]
A
No, 100%. 100%. It's really weird to think about that. And it's also weird to think about just the whole psyops aspect of it too.
- [40:55]
B
Right.
- [40:56]
A
The fact that she was just like a psyops until.
- [40:58]
B
Yeah, well, every decision she made, maybe he had a. He had a hand in it.
- [41:01]
A
Oh, my God.
- [41:03]
B
And, you know, one of the interesting revelations is one of the things that's like, I, you know, when she turned to maga, I had always thought it was because she had reached the end
- [41:12]
A
of her grift, like, reach the end of the grift.
- [41:14]
B
She's just trying to get power because she wants to please Chris Butler. And so she's just adapting to whatever. So this kind of documents the turn towards Maga because it starts actually in 2016, and it's because Butler starts to become enamored with Trump. Quote. As the general election race got underway in 2016, an unnamed advisor, either Butler or one of his top people, spoke admiringly about Trump's campaign messaging. In one, the unnamed speaker says Trump has staked out a kind of maverick position that Gabbard might have taken. This is right up your alley, the speaker said about some of Trump's remarks on Islamic extremists in America. Too bad you're not running. It's all falling into place but for the wrong guy. Now Trump is going to be the one. Memos sent before Trump entered politics suggest an affinity for some of the ideas he would later adopt, and two of them. The memo said the government needed to think America first, which famously became a slogan of Trump's movement. Another recommended occupying inner cities with the National Guard. These were things that, like, Butler was like, liking about Trump's campaign. During the 2016 campaign, Butler devotees researched senior Trump advisors, including Michael Flynn, which she later had an association with. And so back in 2016, Butler was starting to like this guy, quote, late. And this is, here's another example.
- [42:28]
A
Smart enough to adopt the anti war stuff from Trump's, like, early messaging or like, where was the genesis?
- [42:33]
B
Well, here's the thing. He was getting jealous. It wasn't that he was an air, but he was getting jealous. He was like, you're the one that broke in the Democrats being harder on Islam and you're the one using this anti war rhetoric. And now Trump came in and is getting popular off the things that you were saying. And so it was like he was like, oh man, I'm jealous now. Like, I thought that it should be Tulsi, like me through Tulsi that's getting this attention when it's really Trump. So another example here to close this out again, getting reprimanded for when she speaks for herself instead of saying something that Butler would have wanted to say. So, quote, later that summer, this is 2016, Gabbard said that she would vote for Hillary Clinton, by then the Democratic nominee. That evening, a Butler memo show advising against sharing a Facebook post that was critical of Trump. An unusual move for a Democratic member of Congress. Quote, just stay out of the presidential race. In response to her saying she would vote for Clinton after Trump won in 2016, Gabbard shocked Democrats by meeting him at Trump Tower. And so Gab, just in the way that Butler sent her off to form alliances with Modi and like the right wing party in India because, you know, they're Hindu nationalists and Butler wanted to be known among the Hindu nationalist movement in India. You know, he just sent her to Trump as soon as Trump won.
- [43:44]
A
Which is so funny because there's, it's so much pressure to obviously denounce Trump as a Democratic politician and endorse the Democratic nominee. It's like you, it's like, seriously, you kind of have to if you're like a congressperson. So it's so funny that he was just like, don't do that. And then she was just like, oh, God, like, right.
- [44:00]
B
Yeah. No. And so that she ended up being MAGA because he was like, in 2016, he started being like, ooh, this guy's got it. Like everything I wish to Tulsi was this guy's got. And so he just, and then, and
- [44:11]
A
which explains exactly why she became just a mini Trump. She just echoed exactly what Trump said.
- [44:15]
B
Yep. Yeah. And almost immediately after her embarrassing 2020 presidential bid failed, she started leaning into anti trans hatred to be the Democrat woman Corroborating culture war to get MAGA attention.
- [44:25]
A
Holy moly.
- [44:26]
B
I mean, that's, that's all I'm going to pull. I mean it's, people should read it on Washington Post. It's, it's, it goes, the article goes a lot more into science of identity and the political past and, and stuff like that. But I, I pulled out everything that's relevant to know more about her and
- [44:42]
A
where she's coming from. Yeah. Get it unpay walled. How do you go to Archive.
- [44:45]
B
You can go to archive.org. there's a. There's a paywall remover.
- [44:48]
A
There's a paywall remover there. Definitely check it out. I mean, just to close up here on just her role as, as DNI director. I mean, the Director of National Intelligence. I. I'll never forget first hearing about it when the DNI report came out in 2016 that showed that RT was, like, a huge part of the intelligence community's assessment of why Trump won Russia today, specifically mentioning my show Breaking the Set as, quote, fomenting radical discontent with the American populace. Why? Because I covered Occupy Wall street socialism and foreign policy critically. So it was so cartoonish, but I was like, wait a minute. I was like, how is there, like, an intelligence agency that oversees 17 other intelligence agents? I was like, what is this? Like, what even is this position? And basically what it is is it's a fake managerial position. You don't. You're not actually the intelligence director of the seven. It's a post 911 thing where you literally. You just, like, give, like, briefings to the President. It's like you're like a secretary to the President who just gives him, like, a memo every day.
- [45:52]
B
You're like a Drudge Report.
- [45:53]
A
Like, it's, It's. It's actually kind of a pathetic position now that I'm looking into it. It kind of does match. It's also so sad to think of, like, what she was just like, even her whole firebrand of being, like, an anti war Amer, America first, whatever. It's like, where was she during the Venezuela coup? She was literally surfing in Hawaii, posting photos of, like, her surfboard. It's like, wait, so she, like, she offered. No, nothing on that. Yes.
- [46:19]
B
The whole. Her whole. Her pitch for becoming in power is the war. We can't have the warmongers in charge. We need this peace candidate to run the country because all these warmongers in charge and, and getting her into power will curb the warmongers, and then she gets the power and then helps them
- [46:34]
A
do all this stuff. It's insane. And I mean, just. She became the Colin Powell of the. Of the.
- [46:39]
B
Iran. Iran was, Was about to get a nuclear weapon.
- [46:42]
A
Yeah. And then people were using Tulsi Gabbard's testimony as the DNI chief when she made a presentation saying Iran didn't have the capabilities to develop a nuclear weapon, then she retroactively was like, no, no, no, no, no. I corroborate what Trump is saying. So she denounced Prior as the DNI chief. Like, literally to support the war. It was like. It was like. Remember people were pointing her being like, you're contradicting yourself, T. And she was like, you know what? Trump is right. Iran is this close again. It's like, oh, my God. This is how you want to be remembered. Great. Like, it was worse than Colin Powell,
- [47:16]
B
worse than Col. She said it in front of Congress.
- [47:18]
A
Oh, my God, what an insane. Yeah. Only two regime change wars, one on the horizon with Cuba. Too bad she didn't oversee that one, too. Yeah, Tulsa, you could have done a lot more.
- [47:27]
B
It wasn't her. It wasn't her doing it. She's a victim and she needs help. And Tulsi, I'm sorry I haven't made your intervention. I apologize for making you out to be a bad guy for so many years. I know it's not your fault, and I extend a hand of friendship to pull you out of the dark place you are in. If there's anything I can do, resources I can provide, I will do that. Many people have escaped abusive cult lives like this, and you can, too. And anyone who's close to her should be very much doing the same, extending that same hand to try to get her out of this pit of control and abuse.
- [48:06]
A
I'm sorry. Tulsi, I hope that you find peace and that you find freedom from this horrific cult that is obviously controlling your life. And I hope that you stop overseeing murderous policies. Why don't you just fucking go chill with your husband who's dying of bone cancer and just go fucking do. Go save some sea turtles or something and try to atone for all the horrible, horrible things you've done.
- [48:27]
B
I. It's not the last we've seen it. Or even though with this report, I will say that the. She will continue trying to be.
- [48:34]
A
Yeah. What. What do you think she's going to do?
- [48:35]
B
Where do you see her last? DNI videos are just YouTube commentator format.
- [48:40]
A
We didn't even say. Oh, my God, dude. We didn't even say what she did. As her last day as DNI reporter, she gave a presentation about Foushee, basically saying he is like. It's like an arrestable offense. Which is so funny because Trump gave Fauci an award before he left for Covid. So now. And it's like, wait, so where was this evidence when Trump was president? Was he being hoodwinked by his own intelligence community when he was. Was president? Why did he think Fauci was deserving of an award for Covid while he oversaw Operation Warp Speed? All the shit that Trump did.
- [49:15]
B
Trump also saw QAnon as like a violent, dangerous extremist group in America. And Trump won. And today they just tweeted a straight up Q. Trump with a big Q behind him. So, you know, a lot has changed from Trump wanted Trump.
- [49:29]
A
So basically, yeah, I mean in so many words she's saying Dr. Fauci was like criminally like complicit in the COVID up of COVID Right. And it's like, where is this all coming from? It's just babyish and insane.
- [49:40]
B
It's just me. It's. Read me. The thing that struck me most about that though was that they filmed, they released this video that's like a YouTuber video. It's like she just looks like a
- [49:50]
A
YouTuber like me on breaking the shows.
- [49:53]
B
Like like a word images on the side next to her head.
- [49:55]
A
It's like it's like Fouchy looking like a donkey.
- [49:57]
B
I mean she's had like different YouTube shows that never took off and so.
- [50:00]
A
No, but this was a literally official.
- [50:02]
B
It was in the DNA. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they, they made produced a video that looked like it was. You know, I wonder, I wonder what
- [50:10]
A
she thinks it's like. I mean she must just be reveling in this. She was just like the head of the DNA. So it's like as, as much as she's fallen from grace and looks cartoonish,
- [50:18]
B
she feels she's no longer in power anymore. She, whatever reason she got, she's out for it could be true that it's just because she wants to be with her husband who has cancer.
- [50:27]
A
Absolutely not true. Do you think that she would give up power? Do you think Chris Butler would love let her give up a position of power to, to be with her husband? Yeah. Oh hell no.
- [50:36]
B
She probably, yeah. It's like it's likely story is that the Trump people knew that she, this was going to come out. They wanted her out as a liability and they probably also just, they gave her this out. Well, there's, there has been previous reporting that they, they dislike her and they don't invite her to key meetings. She wasn't involved in a lot of the Iran like she was, she was iced out of things that she should have been involved in except like, you know, she gets sent to do like investigate the voter fraud for Trump on different states, stuff like that. Yeah, just like, you know, she was just the loyal serve. She got made to do like really just dirty work for Trump and be able to throw out red meat to his people with all These like, you
- [51:13]
A
know what this is? Look, Trump had all these high profile blowouts and resignations in his first term. He really tightened. He really tightened ship in the second term. And I think Tulsi, all he did was basically reward the most sycophantic loyalists. And so that's who Tulsi was. She sucked up to him for eight years. She. She played her cards right. Chris Butler obviously stage managed it well. But now because Trump hates her, she's just bowing out gracefully as she can. Maybe it has nothing to do with this report because really, why would Trump care that she's like, in a member of a cult? I mean, he's a pedophile.
- [51:47]
B
Well, I mean, that speaks to, like, why he wanted her in. It's like she's someone who has proven loyalty to an abusive misogynist, like, evil man.
- [51:54]
A
Like, this could be honestly just.
- [51:55]
B
She's been abused by Trump too. She says abused by Butler her whole life. And then she got put in the hands. He sold her off to this other crazy, abusive egomaniac man again.
- [52:05]
A
Tulsi, the empty shell.
- [52:06]
B
We need to help her.
- [52:07]
A
The empty shell.
- [52:08]
B
She has been made into an empty shell. But she can be a real person.
- [52:13]
A
If she, if she didn't commit crimes, if she was just like our old boss at, like, she didn't shop down
- [52:18]
B
the crime split crimes. She was a DNI's fake position.
- [52:22]
A
She can be forgiven when she was anyone, even people. The transphobia she fomented, the Islamophobia she fomented, all of that shit has actual consequences.
- [52:31]
B
Forgiveness and atonement is available to all people.
- [52:34]
A
What cult did you join? Okay, sorry, bye. Thank you for listening to. Thank you so much for listening to this impromptu episode of Empire Files podcast. And even though Mike isn't even really working day in and day out with Empire Files, because you've taken on this new, amazing job. Thank you so much for doing this podcast, Mike. I hope you do more of them with me. It was so fun. Love you so much.
- [52:58]
B
Love you too, sweetie.