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- [00:00]
Tim Heidecker
Foreign.
- [00:05]
Interviewer
The subject matter is pretty dark, and I'm excited to take a brief break from that today to talk to someone I've been following and admiring for over 20 years, Tim Heidegger. Many of you might recognize him from Jordan Peele's horror classic Us, Showtime's Moon Base 8, appearing in hit shows like what We do, in the Shadows, and I think you should leave. But Tim has done so, so much more as an artist and creator. I can't think of anyone more prolific. He's a musician, he's an actor, he's a writer, he's a director and a producer on so many amazing projects in both film and television. Currently, he hosts the awesome Office Hours Live Beyond Cinema series, now on its 15th season, and just released his latest studio album, Slipping Away. Most important to me personally is his cultural powerhouse, the Tim and Eric awesome show Adult Swim, which has influenced and inspired so much in the world of comedy and video editing from the early 2000s until today. Tim Heidecker, thank you so much for coming on the Empire Files. It's a huge honor to have you
- [01:10]
Tim Heidecker
finally doing it. This has been a long time in the works.
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Interviewer
It has been a long time in the works. It's funny, I was just looking at the questions that I had for you a couple months ago when we initially tried to schedule this and you had to evacuate because of the fires in la. And they were just so lighthearted, Tim. Everything was just fun, easygoing, even though. Even though it really sucked under Biden, but. But now it's just so creepy. I mean, I felt like the fires were this weird omen and now you have Trump dismantling the federal government. So I guess. How's life going for you under. Under, you know, Lord Musk's neo feudal tech dictatorship.
- [01:51]
Tim Heidecker
God. I mean, I don't know where to start with it. I, you know, it's. It's weird because I don't know about you. Like, it's. Things haven't, like, materially changed in my life, right? Like, I mean, I think there's stress about the future, about where this is going. And, you know, all we can have is, like, empathy for people that are already being affected, right? Like people that are being disappeared and sent to prison camps and stuff. I don't think that's going to happen to me, but there's also this feeling that it could. I mean, I put out an album, you know, too dumb for suicide, 10, eight years ago or whatever. I mean, that might, I might be on a list. I don't know. I Mean, you know, the stuff I post is very critical and very. So, you know, and so there is like a little stress. I mean that's probably a small stress point for me. But in general it's like, what is happening? Where is this all headed? Yeah. You know, like there's so many things that concern that deeply upset me about what's happening. Not least of which being like Canada, the situation with Canada. Like can we talk about that for a second because.
- [03:16]
Interviewer
Oh yeah, I forgot you're. I think you're connected to Canada.
- [03:20]
Tim Heidecker
My wife's Canadian and I, I'll. This is just anecdotal but my wife's father, my father in law is a pretty conservative guy and he like for the past six years or so I think has gotten fairly red pilled by Fox News. And like he's, you know, every time she talked to him over the past few years it was like Nancy Pelosi this and you know like the Dems and Biden and you know, all kinds of like leaning like kind of, you know, red pill kind of stuff. And then I like a light switch, he's turned. He's just like this guy's an asshole and fuck him and what? This guy's the devil. Yeah. I mean, do you know how insulting that is to, to Canadians to be, to be down here talking like that?
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Interviewer
It's our front yard.
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Tim Heidecker
They're legitimately pissed.
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Interviewer
Is our front yard.
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Tim Heidecker
Yeah. It's our back. It's a, it's our. Yeah. It is our backyard. I don't know if it's our. But the, these people like friends of mine that live up there just like you.
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Interviewer
Yeah.
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Tim Heidecker
Like off. So it's, I mean that's just one thing. And it's like h. Have you heard a good argument from that side about this? Like it's either really stupid or this sick like mafia mentality of negotiation that I don't want to have anything to do with. Like I don't want to be, I don't want to associate my, my nationality with that kind of energy.
- [04:51]
Interviewer
You know, it's, it does increasingly feel very like Mafio. So I mean just the fact that he's like we're going to take Greenland, we're going to do this and that. It just seems like world leaders instead of just mocking the idea, they're just like, well hold on, there needs to be certain conditions if you're going to take Greenland, like, okay, you can't take all of it, but let's talk about this and that. It's like Wait a minute. Are we seriously, like, having a discussion? Entertaining.
- [05:16]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah.
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Interviewer
It's wild.
- [05:18]
Tim Heidecker
I know. Then it becomes normal and like. Yeah, they move the goalpost so it becomes like, oh, yeah, this is a normal. It's like. I mean, it's. It's hacky, but I mean, it's not. It's actually probably the best. The John Mulaney thing about the horse in the hospital, the presence of Trump in our world, in our politic, whatever, is like a horse in the hospital. It's just like no one knows what to do, you know, no one knows how to deal with that. It's like you just kind of have to like, wait for it to leave or something or.
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Interviewer
I don't.
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Tim Heidecker
I don't remember how he resolves it, but it's so bananas. It's so crazy. But then all these people talk about it like it's normal stuff and it's
- [06:02]
Interviewer
not one of those little miniature ponies. It's not at the hospital that I have seen before. It's an actual full grown.
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Tim Heidecker
No, it's not a cute horse. No, it's like a big. It's a big, like, farm horse.
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Interviewer
Yeah, it's big, disgusting, horrific clown horse. Well, I think another weird feature of the reality that we're waiting through, Tim, is just the denial of, of reality. The constant gaslighting, the flipping reality on its head. And I think a perfect example.
- [06:33]
Tim Heidecker
The gaslighting. Yeah.
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Interviewer
Is this what the media called the stiff armed, the stiff right arm salute that Elon Musk did twice at the inauguration? I mean, do you think that's an accurate description?
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Tim Heidecker
The Roman salute that no one's ever done before, that people haven't done?
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Interviewer
Take Nazi out of. Out of the lexicon and first go to the origins. We have to go to where it started.
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Tim Heidecker
Yeah. Well, it's funny, I was just listening to, you know, Dan. You know Dan Carlin?
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Interviewer
Yeah.
- [07:09]
Tim Heidecker
He's a historic history guy. It's really nice to hear because he's like. He brings up the Roman, the, the. The Zeke Heil. Let's just say it. We're not. Let's not play by their rules. It's a Zeke Heil. And he's just like, what the hell was that? Like, what? Either. Either it's really stupid or it's scary and evil, you know, and like the fact that Musk does it. Okay. I guess you could say he's autistic or very on the spectrum, strange and has weird impulses and weird things going on in his brain. But then Steve Bannon comes out and does it like, well, then what's that? You know, what's that? That's just saying. That's a. It's like a big wink, right? Like, we're not stupid. It's hard because it's like. I do take. Like. The term Nazi is like, well, what do you mean? Like, what are we? Like, the. The words get weird because, you know, literal Nazis, I don't know, they had a very specific vision for the world that involved Germany, you know, and German people and, you know, like, can we just call. Do we have to use that word? Or is it like. Is it fascism? It seems like fascism. It seems like autocracy, plutocracy. You know, all these words we get. Maybe it get lost in the. It gets a little like, lost in, you know, the semantics of it or something. But it's. It's probably just like a new thing, right?
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Interviewer
Like, yeah, it's a new iteration of maga.
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Tim Heidecker
I mean, this is Trumpism.
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Interviewer
It's neo fascist. Whatever it is, it's fascist. Absolutely. And in the truest sense of the word. But what's funny about the moment? I guess funny is one way to put it. It's just. It's the projection and like, denial. So it's like every reaction to the sigile is a bad one because it's either feeding into the frenzy of like, Nazi, Nazi, Nazi, or it's just denying it and being like, you're an idiot if you think that was a Sigile. It's like, what. What do you. What is going on? How could you possibly tell me that that wasn't what I saw?
- [09:26]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah, and the. And the. The gaslighting of. It's even you too serious. And it's a joke. Like, they're doing this about the. This. The signal thing that, you know, I'm sure you've been. Everyone's been following the playbook is so. It's like. It's like watching an old Gilligan's island that you've seen a million times. Like, first. First thing that happens is everyone goes, holy, this is. This happened. You know, like, this is a cartoon. Like, this reporter accidentally gets access to this secret conversation where they discuss military plans. And the way they're talking about it is so juvenile. And it's like frat boys talking about scoring the night before or something. Like, then Trump says, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what. I don't even. I haven't even heard about this. But sounds. And then they. Then they make fun of it. They make fun of. They sort of acknowledge it by making fun of it with like some stupid Babylon B. That's like, well, if they wanted to hide top secret information, the best place would be the Atlantic. Right? Because no one reads it like, all right, so it did happen. And then the dimwits like Tim Pool and those are just like, ah. But they. They wanted it to happen.
- [10:50]
Interviewer
Part of the 5D chats.
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Tim Heidecker
They.
- [10:54]
Interviewer
Genius, Tim. You don't see the genius there.
- [10:56]
Tim Heidecker
But what it probably is. Yeah, I know that they wanted to signal, no pun intended, that, like, there is this policy debate going. Like, I listened to the whole thing last night. Drove me nuts. And then the truth is they're probably just. They're. They seem to be in incompetent and probably like, you know, all the, like back to the Nazis. Most of those Nazis were like weirdos and drug addicts and psychopaths who, like, you know, were curried favor with the. The furor and got into very high positions of power. But they were all like, very unstable people. And that's probably what we're dealing with here. This Pete Hegseth seems, like very unstable.
- [11:40]
Interviewer
Actually, like stable to me.
- [11:42]
Tim Heidecker
Dan Bajinga, deranged. This Cash Patel. I just. We're going to show this on office hours, but I just happened to be watching one of these hearings, and Kash Patel is. Is not talking, but he's in the frame and he's like maniacally or like kind of like meth level playing with his pen.
- [12:01]
Interviewer
And his eyes are all bugged out. Like super huge saucer pills.
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Tim Heidecker
Yeah.
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Interviewer
And he's like.
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Tim Heidecker
He's like. He's like touching his. He's like touching his tie and adjusting. He's like, you know, tweaking out. And so I think. I don't know.
- [12:15]
Interviewer
He's just autistic. Well, it's like. It's like the Elon Musk thing. He's just autistic. It's like it would make. It would make more sense if he had Tourette's or something. I don't. The autistic thing doesn't make any sense to me because I've never. That. That's an. That's offensive to autistic people. But I think what's so bizarre and just surreal about this moment, like you said, I mean, it's beyond parody for so many reasons, but it's also just so dark and dystopian, especially having these, you know, unelected tech overlords. Someone like Elon Musk The South African oligarch appointing himself to this position, going and just cutting social services for the elderly and kids and then has a literal chainsaw wielding around at cpac. But, but Tim, I have become meme. I have become meme. I mean, it, it is so evil. Who, who knew that the end of times would be ushered in by the most boring losers?
- [13:13]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah, they are really pathetic and embarrassing and cringy to watch and, but yeah, I mean, you can look below the surface and find the roots of their ideas and this whole like, technocracy concept. I really do. You know, it seems like the evidence is there that they don't believe in the Republic, they don't believe in the concept of representative government. Like, I get the idea that, you know, things like ideas come about, come around and systems change and technology makes it possible for things. You know, we came from a feudalism or we didn't, you know, like styles of government evolve or whatever, you know, and like, they probably think that they're doing something noble, but on some level, but it seems pretty reckless, you know, and, you know, and probably done with great incompetence. Like, so the other day, I mean, I was watching before we started, you were having trouble with your headphones, you know, and it reminded me that with all this talk and I, I'm no fan of, I don't know, I, I, I'm, I haven't really had to rely, I guess, on like the federal government. I mean, I guess I do in the sense that, like, I drive on highways and I am obstinately protected by our military in the sense that we haven't been invaded by anybody and stuff, you know, but like, I don't rely on social services. I've been lucky that I don't need to, you know, but this idea of like, waste, fraud and abuse, they keep drilling this in waste, fraud and abuse. Well, I was getting a ride back from the airport at LAX and I get picked up and the driver has the little parking slip that you pay for parking with, you know, and he puts it in the machine and pays for the parking and then goes to the exit and there's the gate there and puts it in the thing to get out, which didn't work, you know, and the thing didn't open up. And so he presses the button and this lady comes out. Now she's got to call her boss. And it's like three or four good solid minutes of trying to figure out how to open the gate. And I'm like, this is where all the, like the Inefficiencies we deal with most of the time is in the private sector. It's all the time. It's like the cable company, the electric company. These companies that are, like, privately owned are the fucking things that give us angina, you know, give us. Like, everyone can relate to that. I mean, that's it. It can get pretty hacky talking about it, but that's what I think. And then on the opposite, like, my dad, who's a fairly conservative guy, I remember when he got on Medicare, you know, and he. And he was like, I have to admit, that was a pretty smooth process. You know, it's like. Like, it actually kind of works, you know, So I don't know. I'm sure there's all kinds of. But I don't think that their intention is to go in there and make all these things work better. I think their intention is to go in there and destroy them.
- [16:33]
Interviewer
No, I mean, especially knowing what an
- [16:34]
Tim Heidecker
evil that seems like what they're.
- [16:36]
Interviewer
Maniac Elon Musk is. He refuses to play child support. I mean, he's trying to keep his custody battle in Texas. It's like one of the only states that actually has a cap at 3, $500. It really exposes just how this. This is. I mean, at least Trump's kids get to reap the benefits of being in the Trump family. It's like Elon Musk has, like, a breeding fetish where he just doesn't give a. About the kids once he has them.
- [16:59]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah. It's not hard to make the argument that these are not good people. You know, like, the evidence is. The evidence is all over the place. It's another thing Dan Carlin said. He's like, listen, I just don't think this guy in relation to Trump, but you could say it about Elon Musk. He's like, I just don't think this guy's a good person. You know, like, that shouldn't be that hard to. Yeah, I mean, there's so much evidence of it. There's just piles and piles and piles of evidence of. Of him not being a good person, you know, like. And of course, I mean, everybody's gonna say, well, Clinton wasn't a good person either. Barack Obama wasn't. Barack Obama was a narcissist. It's like, yes, but there are degrees of this shit that work that we have to live with or tolerate.
- [17:49]
Interviewer
I love. I love the TDS thing. It's like, you have TDS if you. If you criticize the most powerful person in the world who's just gutting the entire government. I liked you when you funny, Tim. What the fudge happened to you? But no, it is.
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Tim Heidecker
Yeah.
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Interviewer
The whole thing about Elon is so desperate to be funny, which is actually like, quite sad that this guy is like destroying the planet because he really wants a laugh and wants to be this edgelord meme maker. I mean, he's so desperate for cultural relevancy, he would die to actually be funny. Babylon B would die to be funny. And, you know, a couple years ago, all the Republicans could amass would be like Clint Eastwood and Scott Baio at the rnc because they didn't have celebrities, they didn't have comedians on their side. But Tim, look how much has changed. I mean, comedy pod. Look, you do a podcast, you just try to have fun. You just want to laugh and have a good time. You're not using your comedy podcast as a vehicle for fascism.
- [18:46]
Tim Heidecker
Yes, I don't think I do. You know, and we. It's the office hours covers all sorts of stuff. We can get. I can get emotional. I could talk to people dealing with, you know, like, it's not just fart sound effects, but it's certainly a lot of that. But you're right. I was thinking about this the other day. The whole Rogas Rogan's fear, Rogus fear or whatever, Tim Dillon or Andrew Schultz, all these people. Like, I can't believe that that isn't getting just slammed for just on the. The idea of funny being like, all you guys are doing is like, talk. It's like you're the View or something. Like, you just. Every time I tune in, you're just talking politics. You're just like interviewing and you're like. It's like state sponsored almost too, because they're like talking to rfk. Like during the election, it was like every week Joe Rogan talks to so many billionaires. It's unbelievable. Like, that seemed like, who is he? Who's funny on that? I don't know. I've never seen anybody like, being funny on that. But I also want to say, because it goes both ways. Like, the idea of talking about what is funny is pretty stupid, you know, like, I don't know. I'm going to. You're going to. You seem to think I'm funny, right? You know, like, you. You think I'm funny, but that doesn't make you better than somebody that thinks I'm not funny. I don't know, it just. I mean, maybe it probably does, but that might just be, you know, it does. Like, I, you know, I think. I think I'm pretty funny. I like, I like me, you know, being. It's fun to. It's fun. It's fun to be funny with your friends and it's fun to laugh, you know, but the idea of, like, having an opinion on what's funny is like, it's so subjective. It's so personal. I've been dealing with that way before the political stuff came in. When Eric and I were making stuff. People like, well, this shit just isn't funny. I'm like, like, what do you think it is? Do you think it's. It was. Because it is. Is effective. Obviously it was very effective by these people to, to grab these demographic. These demographics of, you know, young. Mostly young men. But, like, do you think it was strategic or do you think it's just kind of a coincidence?
- [21:01]
Interviewer
I think it's a confluence of a lot of weird things, but I think the most interesting aspect of it is the fact that the Trump administration dialed in. I mean, the Democratic Party just lost the plot. It's like all they went on was Pod Save America and that fake podcast or whatever that Kamala set up the set for and paid like 100 grand. But, like, the Republicans knew exactly the subculture that they were trying to dial into, and they did it. Theo Vaughn, Joe Rogan. When I saw those people at the rnc, I was like, oh, it's over. Like, the fact that they knew to go on Theo von Shows, like, no, this is.
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Tim Heidecker
Are they being used or are they kind of.
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Interviewer
Well, I think everyone's a multi million. You know, I think once you're in the club, like, like, for example, look at these Silicon Valley overlords. I mean, back. The Google CEO was actually protesting the Muslim ban back in 2016, and now look at what you see eight years later. All of it's folded into the Trump administration. They're all at the inauguration. It all was virtue signaling. I mean, all of this notion of, like, wokeism, controlling corporations because they put up a black square when Black Lives Matter was going on. It's like, no, that's just branding. Like, this is capitalism.
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Tim Heidecker
Yeah.
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Interviewer
These people, at the end of the day, they don't really care if we have fascism. Like, they, they might not be in agreement about religious zealotry, but, like, they don't really care.
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Tim Heidecker
Right. As long as the lanes of trade remain fluid. And I mean, as long as money's being made. But that's the delicate balance. Like, I always try to think about it from their Perspective like there are revol. It feels like there are true revolutionaries in that crowd. Maybe Steve Bannon or somebody like that who like really seem like want to tear down the. The world order. Like much like you, you know, like maybe coming from different angles but like really disruptive and. But there must be genuine fear that like you pull the bottom of the deck out of the house of cards and like you have real economic catastrophe for everybody. Like unless you're truly like in the top 1.0001% where you could potentially like self sustain on an island. If you're like Mark Zuckerberg, I guess. But like do those people want to like, did they want to like Mark Andreessen and Bill Ackman and all these Elon Musk even like did they don't. They don't want to live in a dystopian hell scape because they're human beings too, right? Like so like they're not. I don't know, I'm just. It's just confusing to know like what they like, do they expect things to like settle into some kind of two. I don't know. What do you think?
- [23:39]
Interviewer
I mean I. I ask myself the same thing every day. It's the counterintuitive nature of just empire and capitalism. It's like it's. You're digging your own grave and it's like do you not give a about your grandkids? I thought that you believed in climate change with the whole electric car stuff. I. So it is right? It is so insane on so many levels. But I guess Tim, what you're saying is you don't think wokeism is what killed comedy.
- [24:04]
Tim Heidecker
I can't think of any example. Any examples. Maybe I'm wrong, but of anybody that's been whatever you want to consider canceled for anything they've said Com. In a. In the setting of comedy. Like there's been criticism and. And pushback or you know, people that. That don't agree with certain things people say. But no one's lost from what I. I mean tell me who's lost opportunities because of anything they've said? You know, maybe since since who like when has this been done?
- [24:44]
Interviewer
That's what's so funny. This right wing comedian martyrdom. Like you know, you hear it from Ricky Gervais and things like that. But then Bill Maher, which is so funny, he has the pinnacle of success. He has an HBO show, primetime show and he's constantly bemoaning about cancel culture. It's like to who the only comedian that I can think of that's been legitimately canceled for their odious views is Michael Richards for yelling the N word had a set like, that wasn't. In the context of comedy. This is like. I mean, like you said, I can't think of one example. Like, I can't think of one example where someone's been unfairly maligned for, like, a decent joke.
- [25:22]
Tim Heidecker
No, there isn't. There isn't. I mean, the people, like, I mean, even Louis CK who I, you know, it was not. He was not canceled for anything. He said. It's for, like, sexual assault, you know, or whatever it was. I don't know. I don't even. It's probably not technically sexual assault. I don't know. It was no crime. It was no criminal charge. It was just like a societal, like, go away, please. You know, like, that creeped me out. But he's doing great. He's. He's touring and doing Stu. You know, he's had a tremendously successful past few years, from what I could tell. So. Yeah, I don't see it. I don't get it. I would. I mean, is. Is there self censoring going on? Maybe, like, just. But that. Yeah. Somebody said, well, you can't. You can't. Somebody said to me, you can't make the argument that you could say the same thing that you could have said 15 years ago. And my reaction to that is, why would you ever want to say the same thing you said 15 years ago? That sounds horrible. Like, sounds lame. It sounds like, what's the. Of course things change. Of course norms change and understanding of other people change. You know, and like, 15 years ago, you couldn't have said something 15 years before that. Or you could have, but it just wouldn't have gone over well. I wish Elon Musk would tell me what he thinks about Conor o' Malley or Tim Robinson or K. Berlant or John early or a ton of people that are hilarious to me, you know, Kyle Mooney just put out this album that's so stupid and funny and it's. Everyone should listen to it because it'll make you laugh. And it's like, that's all we're supposed to be doing is like trying is like communicating an idea that one of us has into the world that will make you, like, forget about your shitty day for 10 seconds, you know, so it's. There's tons of comedy out there that I love, and then there's a. Lots of. That seems just like, like you said earlier, like, there's Some kind of propaganda platform for the. The fascists?
- [27:53]
Interviewer
Well, yeah, and it's all these people being like, you can't make jokes about trans people. It's like, how many jokes do you want to say about trans people? I mean, I. How is that your whole routine?
- [28:00]
Tim Heidecker
I know.
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Interviewer
What, like, wow.
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Tim Heidecker
Yeah. Exactly.
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Interviewer
Weird.
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Tim Heidecker
I'm sure I could come up with a trans joke that my trans friends hopefully would find funny, and probably some of them wouldn't, but that's okay. You know, Like, I don't. It just seemed like this. The trans stuff was. Wasn't comedy at all. It was like soapboxing. It was like. It was a. It was, you know, anyways.
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Interviewer
Weird.
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Tim Heidecker
I don't. But what were you.
- [28:28]
Interviewer
Really strange. I mean, I. I do want to just talk to you really quickly about Palestine, Tim, because of everything that's going on. The ceasefire, you know, Israel resuming its bombing campaign.
- [28:40]
Tim Heidecker
Well, I'm the expert.
- [28:41]
Interviewer
And. And as the Mideast expert on foreign affairs, I couldn't help but to, you know, ask your opinion on it. I mean, look, you've called it a genocide. Entertainers everywhere are getting in a lot of trouble for just speaking plainly about what's going on.
- [28:57]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah. There's the count, there's the cancel culture. There's the cancel culture. I think it feels like there's such pushback. Yeah, but so.
- [29:05]
Interviewer
And I just wanted to ask where your thoughts are.
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Tim Heidecker
I don't know.
- [29:07]
Interviewer
I mean, what is your perspective on it? Because you have watched Gaza fights for freedom. You've. You knew the situation before this happened. And it's just been really tough for the last 17 months to witness this. And I just wanted to get your take.
- [29:19]
Tim Heidecker
It is. So I got in trouble for saying it was very complicated because it's. In a sense, I agree, it isn't complicated. It's like an indigenous people that have been living somewhere for a very long time. I've been colonized and put into an apartheid state condition for many years. And of course there's going to be pushback to that and resistance to that, and that's definitely logically going to lead to fighting and violence and war. And the American, or even just sort of the Western perspective on Israel has been. So. It's Johnny Appleseed, it's George Washington cutting down the cherry tree. It's so ingrained in our Persona that it was very hard to kind of break out of that mentality, that mindset, and really look at it from maybe a, you know, an Arab or a sort of a Middle Eastern perspective of Palestinians perspective, it's clear to me that we're just, you know, it is a genocide and it is a, that we are complicit in it and we feed it and, and, you know, I think it's, it's going to get worse. It seems like that Trump is a enabler of it and a, of course, the, the Christian right idea of their symbiotic relationship with Israel is, Gets very apocalyptic and very scary to think about how this plays into their plans for the future. So I think thanks to your work and like, the films you made and, you know, it was able, you were able to show, I think anybody that was open to it that these, most of these, you know, the, the vast majority of these people are just, you know, regular folk trying to live, trying to raise their kids and provide for them and lead all, you know, lead normal lives. And it's, it's. I can't imagine how hard it is and how dispiriting it is to the folks that are still around, you know, and the, just the, the, yeah, the trauma that's going to continue on for generations and yeah, I mean, I can keep going, but that's kind of where, where my head's around it.
- [32:02]
Interviewer
Yeah. And the fact that not only the trauma incurred by the people, obviously, who are going to survive and the limbless kids and all of that, the orphans, but also just the impact it's going to have on the planet, you know, and it brings me to just 9, 11 until today. I mean, the war on terror, this unending kind of slaughter in our names around the world. And you, you know, the, the crime of the century, the Iraq war under George W. Bush. There's so many parallels, I guess, and I know that you, you know, you were on the streets protesting the Iraq War. War. And it just seems like here you were during the Bush administration with this failed son, couldn't even string two words together, but he was surrounded by like, seasoned politicians and stuff. Now, fast forward 20 years, you have Trump surrounded by absolute clown posse, a total league of his own, still conducting all these atrocities in our name on the precipice of, like, world war. And, and I think that we are going to feel repercussions from this genocide for generations. Tim. And I guess I just want to get your perspective on. Oh, yeah, you know, you having that political awakening, your career exploding under George W. Bush and just your perspective and like, just thinking back on the last 20 years and how that influenced you as an artist and person.
- [33:23]
Tim Heidecker
Well, it's funny, I remember living in New York and protesting that war right before. And it was an unsuccessful protest. I mean, it was really shocking because, I don't know, there was a million people in the streets or there was something crazy like that, or a hundred. I don't know. It was the entire. Man, all of Manhattan was, like, people walking up Fifth Avenue or something in front of the UN And I was there, and all my friends were there, and there was this feeling of, like, trying to stop a. And I was in New York for 9 11, too, and I was very. I was probably, you know, the weeks after 9 11, very much like, bomb the fuck out of these motherfuckers. You know, like, that was. I was all. I was all on board, you know, like, you know, American Pride with a little bit of, like. I remember, like, David Cross had a special out right around then that was kind of like calling some on the American narrative there. You know, like, really, like, well, what was. What was Bin Laden complaining about? You know, and then you look in, you're like, that's actually kind of. You know, I like some of it. Some of it checks out. It wasn't just that they hate freedom. You know, it was, like, very specific about certain things, but not that I'm condoning, but, you know, you at least, like, understand, like, where we fit in the world and, like, how we're perceived and how dangerous that can be. So, yeah, I. I protested to no. Without any success, but I. That that's where my political roots were sort of formed. And. And this was before I had a TV show. It was when I was just struggling in New York and not really getting anything accomplished. It's. And, you know, my positions have changed, and. And like I said, it took me a while to kind of wrap my head around Israel and the Palestinian conflict there. Like, I feel like I have empathy, and I feel that it's impossible to not have empathy when you see the suffering going on there.
- [35:33]
Interviewer
I. I think a lot of Trump's success has been seen seizing upon the dissatisfaction, obviously, not only with the status quo, but also with the corporate media, the lies, I mean, stemming from the Iraq war and to capitalize on the notion of fake news and, you know, all of this kind of faux populism, and then gravitated in entrenching it into the right wing. It's been actually very smart going back to Bannon's strategy. I mean, pulling up all the disaffected Bernie voters and moving them over to the right.
- [36:04]
Tim Heidecker
It.
- [36:05]
Interviewer
It's just. It's insane. I mean, the levels of propaganda with Palestine, with, with our foreign policy and, and it masks and obfuscates our true role in the world. And I think that's becoming more and more exposed. You mentioned at the beginning of the, of, of this that, you know, your, your material reality hasn't really changed. Look, fires were just on your doorstep, Tim. Like, we are all.
- [36:29]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah.
- [36:29]
Interviewer
I mean, we're all going to be impacted by this.
- [36:34]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah, I was just a couple things. It's happening right in real time now with this Pete Heath guy, like, denying that, saying that it's basically this reporter is, is like just a peddler and hoaxes and some of it's been. The mainstream media shot themselves in the foot because they're, there is a distrust in them and they're. And, and they're seizing upon that now by saying, well, it's all. And you know, I think now you just have to kind of use your gut to figure out what's really going on. And like, there's just, what's, what's really crazy and sad is we all know that, that there, that politicians lie and they, they. They reframe things to suit their agendas and all this stuff. The fact that I don't believe anything that this administration says, like, I don't believe any of it. Like, and it's like you have to just tune it all out because there's none of it that you can rely on because if you do, if you start accepting some stuff in, it feels like you don't know how to turn it. You don't know how to like, regulate it because it's going to get all mixed up with stuff that of course they're saying stuff that is true at some, some things are just factually easy to prove, but you almost have to just completely wipe them out as, as sources of information, which is really fucking scary and sad to think that the federal government can't be trusted about anything. And so then where do you get your information from? You know, I don't know. It's. It. The information is going to get harder to, to discern. You know, there's tons of great reporters out there and I think there's a way to get information that I trust, but it's going to get harder and harder, that's for sure.
- [38:26]
Interviewer
It certainly is. I think this is where people have really missed the mark. Not only obviously what you're talking about, which is the lack of media literacy and critical thinking and the influx of just more consolidation and censorship and control with the algorithms and the top down, you know, consolidation with right wing media. I mean, if you look at the landscape of media, it's just totally controlled by the right wing, which is just totally runs counter to this notion and myth of the liberal media controlling everything. But that's what you do so well. You're able to take kind of a snapshot in time and analyze politics with comedy as opposed to just like, you know, mocking Trump, like, like with undercurrents of like, homopho, like, you know, Trump, Putin or whatever. Like, you. You're able to like, really analyze just the most bizarre moments and that I. Not a lot of people can do that. And I want to go into your career because I think you're the most hilarious person I've ever seen. You're the funniest person in the world.
- [39:27]
Tim Heidecker
Thank you.
- [39:28]
Interviewer
I truly believe that. What's really interesting to me is, like, you said initially that music was actually your first passion. You kind of, by happenstance, I guess, you met Eric and you were doing these experimental, like, art films, I guess. Talk about how that all manifested into the sketch comedy that you guys started.
- [39:46]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah, we were roommates in college and in film school, and we're trying to become sort of serious filmmakers and want to just do, you know, make stuff. But I think in our. In our free time, in our recreational time amidst, you know, drinking a lot of beer and smoking some weed and being young college kids, like, we'd make stuff that we didn't feel fit into the boundaries of the film school world. And sometimes that filtered into the schooling. But a lot of it was more sort of art films or weird prank phone calls or little animations or photo shoots. And throughout those years, we kind of developed a sensibility and sort of a point of view and stuff that just made us laugh. And after college, we kind of kept at it and we'd get together and just, you know, it was a recreational, fun thing to do, is to try to make something with our limited resources and one thing kind of built on top of another. And we started to build up this body of work that felt different and found a couple of people out there in the real world that agreed. And that led to Adult Swim. And Adult Swim picked up a cartoon of ours that we had sort of a short film version of. It's a show, little pilot kind of thing. And yeah, so we kind of just kept making stuff. I mean, for 2004 till 2012, I think we were pretty white hot in terms of just making stuff.
- [41:27]
Interviewer
You were indeed. I mean. And how did you meet Doug Lucent
- [41:29]
Tim Heidecker
made a lot, A lot, a lot of stuff.
- [41:31]
Interviewer
I mean, I have to give him a shout out because he's the genius. He does a lot of the genius editing. I remember watching that mama sketch and I was just like, I mean, I'll never forget it. It was like, it was amazing. And I. And I think it's so funny knowing that he actually started out doing VNRs, those video news releases that were like fake commercials that local news broadcasters would put into their broadcast pretending like, paid for by big pharma and stuff like that. It's just a crazy story.
- [41:59]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah, he was just a commercial editor. Like, like a, you know, edited whatever the job was. He's a Chicago guy who came out to work with. Work on like. Yeah, I think he worked at the Playboy Channel for a little bit. I'm. I think that's true. But he came in and interned for like six months on Tom Goes to the Mayor. We thought he was really funny. I actually didn't click with him right away. Eric. Eric clicked with him quicker. And I just kind of was like, who is this guy? You know, I just. It takes me a little while to warm up to people, I guess. But you know, he quickly became like the guy, like one of the guys that really defined the look of our world and his editing. And we just gave him like so much trust and space to like play and just that's. That was, that was what was, I think successful about those early years for us was no one was looking over our shoulders. We. It wasn't easy, but there was like a feeling of we should, we should try, we should experiment, we should play. We should not think that there's a certain way to do things. And from that, like, yeah, like our own little rules developed and our own kind of style developed. But Doug is still like very, you know, we're very close. He's my co host on Office Hours with Vic. And you know, he's become sort of just, you know, one of the people I've really worked with for longer than anybody. Like, just because Eric and I don't do so much anymore, the fact that Doug and I are still here, like, like in creative meetings every day is, is kind of makes. Makes him like such a long lasting presence in my life and, and a great presence.
- [43:45]
Interviewer
It is really incredible. I remember I saw you guys, I think in san diego like 20 something years ago or something. It's crazy to, to think of how long you guys have been working together and how.
- [43:55]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah, time goes by.
- [43:56]
Interviewer
Time is fake. And one of your new songs. You talk about how no one's going to remember you when you die. I hope you know how outlandish that is. I mean, yeah, you don't have real time with Tim Heidecker.
- [44:07]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah.
- [44:07]
Interviewer
On hbo. But.
- [44:08]
Tim Heidecker
But just right.
- [44:10]
Interviewer
That Tim and Eric, for example, I mean, just taking that in isolation, it is going to be the bedrock of comedy and video production for generations. It is absolutely insane what you guys have done and what you've done in your body of work. And it's just this brilliant long form comedy and it's a meta commentary of like the industry. Like for example, your asshole doppelganger comedian. Like have people take offense to that because they see themselves in that character that you've come across. Or do people.
- [44:43]
Tim Heidecker
No, nobody. Well, I can't say for sure. They don't tell me if they're taking offense. Like, the only actual feedback I've ever gotten that falls into that category is I did a parody of Bill Maher's Club Random with that was incredible, by the way. Yeah, we recreated his whole set and I found him so smug and swarmy and there's so many funny things about that show when it started where he's constantly making drinks and fiddling with his ice and his lighting his joints and like, and then just like being so dismissive of his guests and so rude. And the whole thing was just like, I, you know that when I, when I go after something, it's usually because I'm just like fascinated by it. Like, I can't believe this is real. Like, I can't believe people are watching this. You know, I get very indignant about it. Like, I can't believe this existence exists. So I don't. I gotta do, I gotta do something with it. It's inspiring. But anyway, he. Apparently I heard this from a first person source or whatever that first source that he called this producer and was like, do you know Tim Heidecker is. Yeah, he's funny. Good. He's a. And he started. He was really pissed about the parody, which says everything you need to know about that guy. You know, if you can't take, you can't look at that and be like, ah, you know what that is? You got it. Like, I am. I do that. I do do that. You know, like, or just, just suck it up, you know, like, get over it. You're fine, you're going to be fine. But yeah, mostly I don't hear the criticism from these people. I, I do know that, that, that special of mine, the, the stand up special. I mean everybody in that world saw it or pieces of it or you know, like they knew what I was up to. And I think it's probably the ones that are successful I think probably have a sense of humor about it. But yeah, I love how Bill is
- [46:53]
Interviewer
the only one who's been like, Bill
- [46:54]
Tim Heidecker
Maher does get this offline.
- [46:57]
Interviewer
He's like so offended.
- [46:59]
Tim Heidecker
Can we sue?
- [47:00]
Interviewer
Can we sue? Yeah. Well, really quick side question. I know this might be silly, but I've always wondered where do you cast your characters for Tim and Eric and on cinema? Because it's not the typical people that you would find in like a Hollywood casting call. They're not plastic, they're very real folk that everyone can relate to. Where the hell do you find these people?
- [47:19]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah, you know, I always say that like we're looking for the people that submitted a casting, like a headshot to a casting company and then forgot about it, you know, and like went back to their life and 10 years go by and then they're like that guy, come on in. You know. So we were just looking for people that were interesting and felt off in a certain way. Felt, you know, we, we knew from the beginning like we, for a sketch show, we didn't want to cast, you know, we didn't want like sketch troop type people playing old men. You know, we didn't want like a 23 year old Harvard grad, you know, wearing a white wig and a fake beard. We just get like a guy with the white, with white hair, you know, just like cast real people to play the, these parts. And so that went on, you know, that just kind of again like through experimenting and through playing and trying you find your, your own little borders get built, your own home gets built that way and it compounds upon itself. You know, you start those people bring their friends in or you know, you start casting from background people that you, that you have like that guy's, that guy won't stop talking. Let's, let's write a part for him. You know, some things are like yeah, on cinema is, is similar. I think there's a little more as, as I get older there's like a little more care about it not being like the joke is on them necessarily. Like we're not there to. We're. We're a little more concerned about like creating a reality in that show. Like everyone on that show is kind of more or less grounded in reality and Greg and I are the ones that are off spinning out into space mentally. We watch David lynch movies and I think actually if you look at some. The mid period Woody Allen movies, there's a lot of characters, just people. You're like, God, where'd they find that guy? Street casting. The Safdie brothers do it really well now where you're just like, yeah, again, it's like we're not interested in. In people that have been pursuing acting and take it very seriously because, you know, you can get that elsewhere. That's all over the place. So it's just, you know, and it's fun to work with those people and, and feel like a little bit more like marionette people than. Than directors trying to find, you know, it's more fun to kind of play with. With what. What their limitations are.
- [50:07]
Interviewer
Well, it just looks like you're having a. I mean, everything that you do, whether it's the, The.
- [50:10]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah.
- [50:11]
Interviewer
On cinema or office hours or just your music, you know, having your daughter join you, I mean, it just. It just looks like you're having an absolute blast. And on cinema is just something in a complete league of its own. I can't even compare it to any other show on TV because it's just taken up an entire universe that you guys continue to reinvent the wheel, you and Greg. And similarly, I mean, Office Hours started off as just this. It was just crazy. I mean, you had huge Hollywood movies under your belt, you have all these successful shows, and then you're just like, it. I'm gonna do this weekly podcast and just like make myself available for several hours to anyone. Like, why the hell did you do that?
- [50:50]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah. Yes. I think that's interesting because when you say the first half of that sentence, you're like, you just decided to do a podcast. It was like, well, everybody. Literally everybody has a podcast, you know. But what I loved was, I love the Howard Stern show. Tom Sharpling. I love people. I love talking to people on the phone that, I don't know. Stranger. I don't want to talk to my, you know, family. I want to talk to people I don't know. I like that. I like that idea of like, there's nothing we don't plan. I mean, we plan a few things, but I don't. I generally go into that show without anything in my head. I have like a blank mind for that show usually. And it's the, The. The ability to do something live that you don't have to edit later. You don't have to think about it. So that was the, that was. The idea was like, I could just literally go. Go on the air, people can call me, we can talk. And it started, which is not a. Not necessarily a revolutionary, groundbreaking idea, but I guess you're right. From where I was coming from, it was very counterintuitive maybe to think that I would want to do something like that.
- [52:00]
Interviewer
And now it just seems like it's the funnest thing in the world. I mean, it has become its own universe incorporating musical acts, celebrities, comedians. It's just. It's so fake. Commercials, like every week. It is. It's amazing if. If people listening to this are not plugged into office hours. You are missing out, man. For sure.
- [52:22]
Tim Heidecker
It is a thing where. It is a funny thing where I think people. It takes a minute. Maybe you agree with this that it takes a little bit to like dial in what. That. What it is or like to like. There's a lot of people like, why are those guys just playing noises throughout the whole show? Like, I get that maybe like your first reaction is sort of like, I don't get this. This is crazy. And I don't. But I think once you lock into our frequency or something, it is. It is just like a. A good hang and we have great music. And like, Matt, our producer, is so good at finding these really interesting musical acts. And it's like people. When I was out on the road, people like, I can't believe how many bands you've turned me onto just by having them. And I don't know anyone else quite like it that's doing it like that. Like, I don't. No, no one is, I feel like.
- [53:10]
Interviewer
And plus, you had me on several times and that's why it's especially.
- [53:14]
Tim Heidecker
Yes, you're always welcome back.
- [53:15]
Interviewer
Especially good. Tim, I know that you have to go soon. I want to.
- [53:18]
Tim Heidecker
You're not in LA anymore.
- [53:19]
Interviewer
Hey, I'm coming there soon. I'm going to force myself onto the set. I want to talk about your music really quickly because, look, I know you've heard this a million times, but I did think the very good band was a bit. Only because at the beginning. Because I genuinely like the music that you do as bits like. Like. Let me explain. I mean, the things that you intentionally make to be bad, like Empty Bottle, I actually like. Like, I have that on my Spotify and I do play it. So. So. So I guess what I'm saying is that I thought it was like some big, grand, Andy Kaufman style thing, but now I realize that your comedy career was actually the bait and switch for your musical career. It wasn't the other way around.
- [53:59]
Tim Heidecker
There's no bait and switching. But I am a. I'm almost 50 years old. I'm going to be 50 years old next year in February. So, like, less than a year from now I'll be 50. And I don't know, I. I get restless and I don't want to just stay in one kind of mode ever. And if. And it just so happens that naturally, like, I. I like writing songs and I like singing about things that necessarily aren't always funny. And as I do with everything, I try to deliver those ideas in their best form, you know, in the bed, in most interesting form, I guess, or the form that delights me the most or something. So that's. That's all it is, you know, And I think that as I was contemplating, you know, doing that, it was like, well, that's interesting and that's possibly dangerous or, like, destructive to my. The perception people have of me, you know, like, what am I? That might be a bad idea, but that also. That plays into the idea of, like, exploding. What. What perceptions you should have of me and all that kind of stuff. So. And then by playing with this band and going out and doing it live, I found like, a new, fun, creative outlet where I love the people I play with. I think they add so much humor and they add so much life. And if you see us live, you'd get that. And there's so much great chemistry there that it's something I definitely want to keep trying to do and do as well as possible.
- [55:30]
Interviewer
The band is amazing, and the tone of your last two albums is really fun and relatable, but it also touches upon this kind of impending doom that we discussed so much throughout this and
- [55:40]
Tim Heidecker
fun and relatable and touches on, which
- [55:42]
Interviewer
is just the way life is now, isn't it? I mean, it. It deals with this dystopian theme, but I also kind of want to wrap the interview by. By you just discussing that. I mean, how do we find hope in this moment of. Of impending doom? Because it does feel very dark and it feels like we're going into kind of uncharted territory, especially with the cataclysmic environmental stuff on the horizon. But. But we have to have hope, right? And we have to have fun and we have to just do what we can and just like to laugh, right? We gotta laugh. Fun too, Tim.
- [56:15]
Tim Heidecker
Yeah, I think we have to. It's not the only thing we should be doing, but we should at least talk about it. And I think when we talk about it, we can. It. It. You know, when you're like. It's like talk therapy or something. Like when you. If you. If you're going to sleep at night, all you can think about is like, how doomed the future is. You know, it can be very hard on your system. It can be very hard on you physically and mentally. But if you go out for coffee with your friend and you. And you talk about it and you. You end up feeling probably better after that because you kind of talk it out and maybe deflate it a little bit it and you find some positives and you find, you know, you create like a. Create like some intentional things that you could do and stuff. So I think it's similar with. With the dark stuff I sing about or com do comedy about is like, let's not pretend this isn't happening. Let's not sweep it under the rug and act like everything is all good. Let's talk about it. That's not the only thing we should be doing, but that's what I'm doing with my art.
- [57:20]
Interviewer
Well, I hope you felt better talking to me. Tim Heidegger, thank you so much for coming on the M. It was so fun.
- [57:28]
Tim Heidecker
All right. Good to see you.
- [57:29]
Interviewer
Great to see you. Really quickly tell us where I'll see
- [57:31]
Tim Heidecker
you down the line.
- [57:32]
Interviewer
Tell us where people can find you and support you.
- [57:34]
Tim Heidecker
This is one thing I want to just promote the past since the pandemic, pretty much I've launched the For Office Hours Patreon is how we fund the show and for on cinema on the High Network. H E I Network TV is the only thing that supports that show and it does pretty well. But this is my, like, the gospel that I'm trying to get out there is like, stop worrying about Disney and Paramount and these don't like, those are lost causes in a lot of ways. Like, they're not going to be doing very interesting things for a long time where there's people out there that you can just pay directly and they will provide you with all the entertainment you can possibly schedule into your lives. So the more places you could support that way, I think it's very exciting. It's very easy now to do. Like, it's very. The technology is. Is so good to support that. So that's what I've been pushing and promoting and that's the best way to support what we do.
- [58:40]
Interviewer
Become a member of the High Network. You will not be sorry. Tim, thanks so much. I really appreciate your time. Take care.