355. Liberator of Latin America: Napoleon & The Legions of Hell (Part 2)

Summary

Empire: World History

Episode 355: Liberator of Latin America: Napoleon & The Legions of Hell (Part 2)
Hosts: William Dalrymple & Anita Anand
Date: April 29, 2026

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Overview

In this compelling second episode on Simón Bolívar, William Dalrymple and Anita Anand unravel the multilayered story of Latin America’s fight for independence, focusing on the volatile years of revolution, betrayal, and brutal warfare. The hosts interrogate Bolívar’s motivations, the shifting allegiances among the Creole elite, indigenous, and enslaved populations, and the profound influence of Napoleonic upheavals in Spain. They also delve into the roles of dramatic figures like Francisco de Miranda and the bloodthirsty Boves, comparing Latin American liberation to other global anti-imperial movements.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

The Colonial System and Brewing Dissent

• Creole Elite vs Spanish Crown: The hosts recap Bolívar’s status as a Creole (born in the colonies of Spanish parents), central to the growing tension between local elites and the Spanish Crown, which relied on the Creoles for administration but distrusted their growing ambitions ([01:52]).
• Spanish Control Measures: Anita underscores Spain's intentional fragmentation of its colonies—forbidding lateral communication and harshly punishing any attempts at unity to prevent collective resistance.

  “Communication between the colonies was punishable by death…they wanted to keep their possessions fragmented.” — Anita [02:22]

• Economic Reforms: With the Bourbon reforms, Spain tries to extract more resources and enforce mainland-born officials (Peninsulares) over Creoles, leading to widespread resentment among local elites ([04:59]).

The Catalysts: Enlightenment, Economic Squeeze, and European Chaos

• Economic Motivations: Extraction of minerals and luxury goods (e.g., cacao for hot chocolate) continues to enrich Spain but begins to undermine Creole fortunes through new taxes and trade restrictions ([05:46]).
• Blurry Motives:

  “Is he this sort of Che Guevara figure...or is he, in fact, just representing his own class?” — William [07:00]

  • The hosts debate whether Bolívar is a true liberator or more interested in Creole hegemony.

The Napoleonic Crisis and Its Ripple Effects

• Napoleon’s Invasion & Power Vacuum: Napoleon’s invasion of Spain (1808) and the forced abdication of Spanish kings create chaos, with both colonial and mainland allegiances thrown into confusion and local juntas seizing de facto control ([08:26]).

  “Who is our king at the moment? What is going on?” — Anita [10:43]

• Parallel to WWII Decolonization: William draws parallels to WWII-era colonies taking initiative during metropolitan collapse ([12:21]).

Bolívar and the International Stage

• Diplomacy and Espionage: Bolívar travels to London under the guise of loyalty to Spain, in reality forging pro-independence ties with British officials and exiled revolutionary Francisco de Miranda ([13:36]).
  • Significant British anti-Spanish sentiment fosters support for the rebels, led by the Francophobe Foreign Secretary Marquis Wellesley ([17:28]).
• Miranda’s Role: A world revolutionary, Miranda acts as mentor and connector, but is “othered” by elite Creoles due to Canary Island heritage ([16:12]).

The Birth—And Death—of Venezuelan Independence

• Caracas Club: Bolívar and Miranda form the “Agricultural Society” as a cover for revolutionary scheming ([19:50]).
• 1811 Declaration: Venezuela becomes the first Spanish American colony to declare independence.

  “It is the first National Congress declares Venezuela’s independence. But…the two people pushing them…It is Bolívar and it is Miranda.” — Anita [21:00]

Immediate Catastrophe

• Earthquake of 1812:

  “If nature opposes us, we shall fight against it and force it to obey.” — Bolívar (attributed), after a priest blamed the independence movement for the disaster [23:36]

  • A devastating earthquake, read as divine disapproval by loyalists, cripples rebel strongholds.

• Royalist Counterattack: Spanish commander Monteverde crushes the independence effort, aided by class and racial divisions among rebels ([25:33]).

Class & Race: The Divided Revolution

• Internal Divisions:

  “They spend as much time fighting each other as they do fighting the empire.” — Anita [26:13]

• Indigenous & Enslaved Sides: Many enslaved and indigenous peoples ally with the Spanish, promised freedom and land if they help crush the Creole-led revolt ([27:19]).
  • William: “We shouldn’t expect 18th-century revolutionaries to be Che Guevara...they’re slave owners, they’re plantation owners wanting more power.” [27:44]
• Bolívar and Slavery: While steeped in Enlightenment thought, Bolívar is inconsistent—publicly vague or silent on slavery to maintain elite support, in contrast to more radical figures like Miranda ([28:39]).

Betrayal, Exile, and Total War

The Miranda Episode

• Miranda Capitulates: Facing certain defeat, Miranda surrenders to the Spanish—a move Bolívar reads as betrayal. Bolívar has Miranda arrested and turned over to the enemy, condemning his mentor to die in Spanish captivity ([32:34]).
  • Anita: “He will express regret for what he did…one of those decisions that will bother him into the rest of his life.” [32:57]

Rise of Ruthless Revolution

• “War to the Death” Decree:

  “Any Spaniard who did not actively support the revolution would be executed…This is total war. There is no quarter, there is no mercy.” — Anita on Bolívar’s edict [33:41]

• Bolívar’s Atrocities: Orders the massacre of 800 Spanish prisoners, shifting the fight to one of stark brutality ([34:28]).

  • William: “This sounds very 20th-century…revolutionaries turning to really intense bloodshed.” [34:46]

• Boves and the Legions of Hell: Spanish royalist leader Boves, leading mainly indigenous and mixed-race llaneros, wages a campaign of vengeance and terror against Bolívar’s forces.

  “He ends up leading the legions of hell. These are hordes of wild plainsmen and mostly actual mixed race indigenous people. They are deadly accurate. They are very frightening.” — Anita [37:00]

• Collapse and Exile: Defeated and hunted, Bolívar flees—first to Jamaica, then to Haiti, foreshadowing a major evolution in his thinking and alliances ([39:24]).

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Notable Quotes

• “Communication between the colonies was punishable by death. They wanted to keep their possessions fragmented.” — Anita ([02:22])
• “Is he this sort of Che Guevara figure who’s liberating the continent, or…just representing his own class?” — William ([07:00])
• “Nobody is a constant…this life story, you perhaps see how his priorities change.” — Anita ([07:34])
• “Who is our king at the moment? What is going on?” — Anita ([10:43])
• “If nature opposes us, we shall fight against it and force it to obey.” — Bolívar (attributed) ([23:36])
• “They spend as much time fighting each other as they do fighting the empire.” — Anita ([26:13])
• “Why would anyone support these guys? They’re the slave drivers.” — William ([30:46])
• “Any Spaniard who did not actively support the revolution would be executed…This is total war. There is no quarter, there is no mercy.” — Anita ([33:41])

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Key Timestamps

• 01:52: Background: Colonial society & Creole elites
• 03:57: Bourbon reforms and growing dissent
• 08:26: Napoleonic invasion disrupts colonial order
• 13:36: Bolívar’s secret diplomacy in London
• 21:00: Venezuela declares independence
• 22:09: Earthquake and collapse of the First Republic
• 25:33: Division and defeat: Royalist resurgence
• 32:34: Bolivar betrays Miranda, inaugurates “war to the death”
• 34:28: Bolívar orders massacre of prisoners
• 36:10: Boves and the rise of the “legions of hell”
• 39:24: Bolívar’s exile: Jamaica and Haiti

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Memorable Moments

• Vivid description of Francisco de Miranda as the Lucius Malfoy/Targaryen of revolutionaries ([15:10])
• Anita’s dramatic narration of earthquake devastation and the church’s response ([22:52])
• The mounting moral ambiguity of Bolívar—hubris, ruthlessness, regret, and idealism all on display ([32:34], [40:03])
• William’s cheeky summary: “He’s not an easy hero, this guy.” ([40:03])

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Tone & Language

The episode balances Anita’s narrative flair and empathy for historical character with William’s wry skepticism and comparative approach. The tone remains critical yet accessible, engaging in lively debate about the complexity and contradiction of revolutionary history, eschewing two-dimensional “great man” narratives.

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Conclusion

This episode captures the turbulent birth of liberation movements in Spanish America, reframing Bolívar not as an idealized liberator but as a calculating leader navigating a fractured, brutal world. The story leaves Bolívar on the run—haunted by both the brutality of counterrevolution and the cost of his own zeal—setting the scene for an even more radical phase of revolution.

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For further exploration of Bolívar’s exile and the next stage in Latin American liberation, tune in to the next episode or join the Empire Club for early access.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

morning decisions. How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink or sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or a white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. Hello and welcome to Empire for the second part of our series on Simon Bolivar. Now, if you want to hear all the episodes, you don't want to wait, you just go and join Empire [e-mail] that's empirepod uk.com but let me just remind you all and Willi where we left off in the last episode. Episode. So Bolivar, this young man, aged 22, he'd experienced a lot of personal tragedy. We talked about that in the last episode and we sort of found him on top of the sacred mound, Monte Sacro Hill in Rome, vowing to remove the Spanish colonial power from his homeland. And we described the huge vastness of the Spanish empire and how it was managed and a key part of how the Latin American colonies were kept under Spanish control. So just to recap a little bit, you had a local creole elite that were doing all the work of senior civil servants. And just a reminder that Creole doesn't necessarily, in this instance, mean mixed race as it does today, but people born in the colonies, like Bolivar himself, Spanish parents, but born in what is now called Venezuela.

[A]

And this is going to be a tension that runs through this episode, the struggle for control over this incredibly wealthy colony between the local creole elite, which is what Bolivar is part of, and the Spanish crown, which is trying to claw back control. And this is the background to everything that we're going to be describing in this episode. But, Anita, tell me, how did Spain at this point hold onto such a vast empire with such a small population back in Europe and its own economy in decline at this period?

[B]

Well, through families like Bolivaz family, you know, these, the Creole elites who owned the colonies, ran the colonies, the plantations, the mines. They were the ones who kept the indigenous and enslaved populations in check. And this is really key to why things are difficult here. Because remember we were talking about these different vice royalties, you know, with different sort of viceroys, as India had one in charge, overarching. In a place as big as this, you have different control centers. And what is odd and really special about what goes on in South America under the Spanish is that communication between the colonies was punishable by death. So they were sort of setting up. And I suppose this must be a, you know, a centralized fear among the peninsulares and the Spanish that they wanted to keep their possessions fragmented, because if they. I'm always reminded of what Mary Beard said about Roman slaves, that if they had a uniform, they could see how many of them there were and, you know, the elites would have no, no hope, no chance. That was. That was really striking, striking fact. And that is very much the thinking in the Spanish mind as well, that if they see how they outnumber us, if they start talking laterally rather than deferring upwards to, you know, the Spaniards that we put in charge right at the top of the tree, then how are we going to keep control? And it was a good point, but it was one that people would realize.

[A]

Yeah, and this is going to be what's running through this episode in the 18th, 19th centuries. Over 300 years of colonial rule from Spain are showing distinct signs of cracking

[B]

in the 18th century. Let's start from there. You've got the new Bourbon dynasty in Spain. And they start to think, actually, we need a little more control than we've had before. So they start initiating a series of reforms on how their American territories are going to be administered. The whole aim of this is that, you know, Spain's economic growth is central. It is all about extraction. What happens to Spain is all that is important. So, you know, whatever is happening in the colonies, you know, tough for them. They just have to bolster what we are doing and where we are. So the reforms are quite convoluted. But let me just boil it down to something very, very simple. They are basically creating conditions for a growing politicization of the colonies, because what they're going to do is going to really annoy people, Creoles who were in administrative roles, who were, you know, sort of doing some very senior jobs. Yeah, okay, so they were high level, but they weren't ever Viceroy.

[A]

You send in a Viceroy, but the guys underneath that are all. Are all local.

[B]

Everyone who's doing any work is going to be a Creole.

[A]

Got it?

[B]

Okay. But suddenly this, this Bourbon reform says, you know what? Actually, that leaves us a little bit vulnerable. We are only going to put peninsulares, you know, these, these officials born on the Spanish mainland in those jobs, because these Creoles are kind of getting a little bit big for their boots. Uppity. Uppity, exactly. Uppity. To use that horrific thing. And also, you know, they start getting a little bit suspicious of the Catholic Church as well, because the Catholic Church, you know, their constituencies in the colonies are the colonists, right? So they start thinking, actually, you know, they're met, they're going slightly off book as well. Not all of them. I mean, by and large, you know, the Church is very loyal to Spain, but there are these sort of renegades who are starting to think of themselves as an entity rather than, you know, sort of a Spanish loyalist.

[A]

We should perhaps also mention, Anita, the reasons that this matters to the Spanish Crown, the things that are being extracted. It's no longer, presumably, the massive flow of gold and silver, which kind of, you know, gushed open in the 16th and 17th century when Spain was just afloat with gold from Latin America. But there's still, you know, a lot of mineral wealth coming from this part of the world, copper in particular. But there's also this, this new product of cacao, which is being used for a luxury drink, hot chocolate. They haven't yet got chocolate bars, but hot chocolate is, is. Is a posh drink across Europe and people will pay for it. And this is what Bolivar's family are making their money from.

[B]

Under the pre Bourbon reforms, they were making money. But what does change here? I mean, what, what is. Because there has to be a change. There has to be a catalyst that makes radicals, and that is actually, we're going to change the tax system and the trade system so that more profit flows into Spain, so that depletes the pockets and the bank accounts of those families that you relied on to do all the work. Not only that, you're telling them they're going to have to pay you more. You're also going to tell them that they're not going to have such senior jobs anymore. So this starts really cheesing off those, those Creole elites who have been doing all the work.

[A]

This is something we're going to go into a lot more in the final episode, and it's very much central to that. But we should just flag up front that there is an ongoing debate about how you interpret Bolivar. Is he this sort of Che Guevara figure who's liberating the continent for the sake of it, or is he, in fact, just representing his own class? Is he wanting to replace the Spanish king with someone that looks a bit like himself? And so this is something that's going to be running through all this.

[B]

Well, I mean, I have some thoughts on this. I have very strong thoughts on this. But first, you've always just been a Bolivar girl. Well, no, it's not bad. I just think it's.

[A]

I'm more skeptical, I have to say.

[B]

It's not that at all what it is, I think, you know, you can have a man who can do different things at different points in his life. And so I think that's why it's important to follow his. His sort of trajectory, his journey, if you like to see what the motivations are and how they change him. Because he is not a. No man is a constant, William. You know, this. You know, no man sort of is fully formed. And it's through this. This life story that you perhaps see how his priorities change and at the end, not going to blow it, but how. Maybe he looks back upon his own life and sees himself as a success or a failure. But we'll come to that in a moment. We were talking about the changes that the Spanish had instituted, and one of the reasons that they needed money was because of the Peninsula Wars. Now let's talk about those for a little while. So Napoleon invades Spain in 1808, and this triggers a constitutional crisis that will eventually shatter the Spanish Empire.

[A]

And this is a big surprise, isn't it? Because initially they're allies, France and Spain.

[B]

Yeah. But nobody, as you know, in this period of time, friendships, they fragment with startling regularity. And this is quite complicated. Okay, So, I mean, just. But in essence, the old King Charles IV is forcibly deposed by his own son, who then becomes King Ferdinand vii. Now, both appealed to Napoleon, who is a Frenchman, to say, can you sort this out between us? Who should it be? Should it be me or should it be my son?

[A]

Sounds like a dangerous precedent to get him involved, but it's just stupid.

[B]

He's. He's French, for goodness sake, and Napoleon is a land grabber. So when is he going to look at a situation when a father and son are squabbling and looking to him to adjudicate who should be running Spain? He sees the opportunity. So he says, you know what? Let's chat about this a bit more. Come to France. Let's have a cup of tea and talk about it. And so when they do, he says, right, it's going to be neither of you, Joseph. My brother is going to be on the Spanish throne. Shock, horror, surprise. I mean, if only anyone could have guessed, this could have been in Napoleon's, you know, playbook.

[A]

Who would have guessed? Who would have guessed?

[B]

Mad, isn't it? And, you know, you put your brother on the throne, you're going to send your troops to support him. So French troops pour into Spain under the pretext of what they say is going to be a joint invasion of Portugal, because Portugal is a troublesome entity and Spain has rubbed up against it for some time. We're going to come in and we're going to help you take over and send all our military garrisons in and we're going to sort that out for you. No declaration of war, but Spain and France, supposedly allies, but suddenly, you know, you've got a French occupation of Spain. So under the guise of let's help you with Portugal, they basically flood the place with French soldiers. And it is absolutely bonkers for a while because you've got one crown and. And three heads effectively claiming to be king. And so, you know, the realignment of powers in Europe makes this all the more complicated. And you have, you know, different local juntas who say, you know, we don't like the French being here. We want them to be out in the name of this king. Which king? Oh, that king. Well, that's not our king. So, you know, you just have this kind of fragmentation within the country as well. The colonies, they're like, who is our king at the moment? You know, what is going on?

[A]

This is a bit like the kind of French empire. Once Germany takes over France in the Second World War, what happens to Algeria? What happens to Vietnam and Cambodia?

[B]

Right. So, yeah, if you don't know who's in charge, you. You kind of start running the shop yourself. Because all of those people that have been appointed who are answering to Spain, they're not getting very clear instruction, because who are they getting instructions from? Who do they sympathize with? So what happens, in effect, is that you get the creole class, of which Bolivar's family was very much a part of. They start making decisions on their own. They get a taste of autonomy, a taste of what it is to, you know, sort of run the show themselves. And when finally it is sorted out what's going on in Spain and Ferdinand VII returns to power in 1814, he comes back going, hang on a minute, what are these colonies doing? They're not listening. They've been what? They've just been doing things on their own. And he tries to restore absolutist rule. Now, by this time, the creoles, even the moderate creoles, had a taste of doing things themselves, probably running things a lot more effectively, because they know the country, they know their people. And even the moderates start saying, which Spanish king? Who the hell are you? We've been doing this ourselves for a few years now. Why are you here. So they start talking about self governance. Some, the less moderate ones start talking about independence. And that really is the kind of the, you know, you were asking before was Bolivar thinking, you know, along the line lines of independence don't, can't go into his head about this. But the theme at the time was independence started being talked about for the first time after Ferdinand tries to sort of become the heavy on the creoles who've been running things in the absence of any clear direction.

[A]

This has many parallels whether you're talking about Algeria and Southeast Asia during the Second World War or the fragmentation of the Soviet Union. Once the center goes down, you get all, you know, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan and all these other satellites breaking off.

[B]

It's a pattern as a template, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly right. And in Venezuela itself, or what we now know as Venezuela, you know, the creoles are now meeting in secret to discuss, you know, how outrageous it is that the king far away, who has been absent and involved in a ridiculous squabble with the family and inviting the French into Spain, is trying to now act the heavy. So they start talking about this and There is this 30 year old plantation owner who was the same 22 year old who swore the oath on the hilltop in Rome that he would liberate his country. Simon Bolivar is in the mix around this table and very much steering the conversation to we don't need them anymore. We don't need them. I've seen what they're like, I've seen what they do, they are chaotic.

[A]

So let's return to Simon Bolivar. What is his place in all this? How does he end up back in Venezuela?

[B]

So after his trip to Europe, Bolivar sailed back to Venezuela where, you know, this resentment is bubbling away against the Spanish government. But Bolivar was far more radical than, you know, his, his peers around that table because he is saying, you know what, I know you're talking about autonomy, but I want independence. We don't need them anymore. We don't want them anymore. They are fools and buffoons and they can't even control what's going on in mainland Spain. So in 1810, he joins a diplomatic mission to London on behalf of the royalist junta in Venezuela. So it's kind of like undercover of being a royalist, but you're actually, I mean, it's sort of spycrafty really. You're going to meet influential people and talk and have a parallel conversation rather than the conversation that they are thinking you're going to have. And in Britain, it's interesting at this Time because there is COVID support for this Spanish American independence, presumably entirely self serving. Of course, as always, you know, if you break Spain then you break their trade monopolies and you know, you break Spain, then you know their markets on the continent, they're open for business to you. So he goes there sort of Bolivar and supposedly seeking British support for, you know, Ferdinand vii. But they're doing something else. They're having another conversation altogether. And it's good to introduce another character

[A]

in this Francisco de Miranda, who's a very important part of the story, isn't he?

[B]

He absolutely is. I mean, first of all, you know, our producer has described him as looking like Lucius Malfoy in Harry Potter.

[A]

Does look very like Lucius Male Malfoy.

[B]

He does. And he's got this sort of shock of slick back, white hair, you know, sort of. He could be a Targaryen. It's very white.

[A]

Draco's dad is definitely. Yeah.

[B]

So let's tell you a little bit about Dando because he's important. So he's born in Caracas in 1750 in, in what was, you know then New Granada. Just to remind you of these vice regalties, Venezuela in new money. He had very wealthy parents like Bolivar, but unlike Bolivar, and this is why this whole creole thing is quite a muddy mix. Miranda's father's ethnic purity was often questioned by the other elites. And that's not because he was mixed race, black, and we've just described him as a Malfoy and a Targaryen, but it's because his father was an immigrant from the Canary Islands.

[A]

Okay, was that considered dodgier than the kind of mainland or why would the Canary Island Beer, darling.

[B]

It makes him a mud blood in effect. Because he's not, he's not straight from Spain. Right. He's not a peninsulare. He's come from the Canary Islands. Well, they're, you know, the yokels from the Canary Islands. They're not like us. So. So that is really, I think, interesting. And you know, we, we will carry on talking about this sort of creole status and whether he was mixed race or not. And largely I don't think he could have been because if you did have any sort of mixed blood, they would go for you even if your dad was from the Canary Islands. Right.

[A]

So he is the che of the 18th century. He fights in every revolution that's going. He's been in the American Revolution, he's in the French Revolution, his name's on the Arc de Triomphe.

[B]

Yeah. And he fought in the American Revolution. I like to sort of think about him as a, you know, he's kind of like a Lafayette character. There's a revolution. I'm on my way I'm on my way, yeah. At the turn of the 19th century, Miranda was spending a lot of time in London. He also was all about Venezuelan independence. You know, he'd been, as you say in France for the revolution in America, saw what was possible. So he thought, why not for my own homeland as well? Even Leeds actually are really. I mean, it's a failed attempt at independence in 1806 and then he gets booted out of Venezuela because he's an undesirable and he moves in exile to London.

[A]

So in London, Bolivar is received by the then Foreign Secretary, Marquis Wellesley, who's a very familiar character to anyone who knows their Indian history. He's the former Governor General, arguably known as the most important Governor General of the entire period. He is Richard Wellesley, the elder brother of the Duke of Wellington. At the time more famous than the Duke of Wellington, but now completely forgotten. He had been the man who got rid of all the pro French courts in India. So he takes on Tipu Sultan, he overthrows the French in Hyderabad and he conquers more of India than Napoleon conquers of Europe. So he is sitting here, he's one of the great Francophobes of the period. And so he lets Bolivar into his web with. His web is in Apsley House at the centre of Hyde park, where he's living a rather slightly seedy existence with all his mistresses. And he's now an old man who's passed the best of his days.

[B]

So true. But the person who smooths that introduction, remember, is Miranda. Miranda has a huge part to play in this because Miranda is so much seen as, you know, this wedge that can drive a space between Spain and its colonies that he can get, you know, people like the Marquis of Wellesley to see this man Bolivar from nowhere, who's supposedly representing the King of Spain and who is doing no such thing. But they do. They, you know, they kind of like each other, they get on with each other. And there are some very important seeds that are sown at this meeting with the Marquis of Wellesley, Apsley House, because later on in this story, you are going to see six and a half thousand British volunteers joining Bolivar and actually at one point, saving his life. But more of that to come. But it's not just Wellesley, actually. It's also the Foreign Secretary, George Canning, who is actively championing the cause of colonial independence. You know, that These colonies should be free. Why should you know which is so bonkers? Because Wellesley is a colonist, more responsible

[A]

for enslaving half of India. Exactly.

[B]

But not when it comes to Spain and her colonies. He's very outspoken about Spain and his colonies. You shouldn't have colonies at all. Let's go back to Bolivar. So he's had this successful meeting, will he, in London. He's got the ear of people.

[A]

So he now then heads back to Caracas and is shortly afterwards joined by his mate Miranda and they form a political club under the disguise of the Agricultural Society. They're pretending they're talking about tillage and seed rotors and combine harvesters or whatever the 18th century equivalent to that is. In reality, of course, they are just discussing ways of getting rid of the Spanish now.

[B]

Yeah. And so what they start doing is agitating, you know, they send out people, like minded people and it is, it is very cloak and dagger stuff because it's dangerous. What they're doing is very, very dangerous. Particularly, you know, Spain is trying to come down on with an iron fist on those who are trying to rest its colonies away. But the agitation is successful. And you have this very important date. On July 5, 1811, Venezuela declares independence. It is the first Spanish American colony to do so. They have the numbers after the agitation of this, you know, sort of farmers club, supposedly this agricultural society, they gain a head of steam.

[A]

So quite often we find that sort of, you know, great heroes retrospectively get given jobs that they haven't done. But this is not actually Bolivar himself declaring independence.

[B]

No, because I mean, who is he in the scheme of things really? So it is the first National Congress declares Venezuela's independence. But the two people pushing them to do it and assuring them that this is going to work, there are two. It is Bolivar and it is Miranda. And you know, Bolivar was 28 years of age at this time. But what's important is he made a vow six years before that on a hilltop. And it's just beginning to take shape. But you know what, it's very, very different declaring independence and being independent. So we'll have more of that after the break.

[A]

Welcome back. So 1811 is this crucial year for Bolivar and for Venezuela, but his victory and the victory of of Venezuela, the independence of Venezuela is short lived. In 1812, this dream of an independent country is crushed both by military might of Spain and an act of God.

[B]

Well, that, yeah, I mean that's certainly the way that the Spanish. Well, you know, it depends how religious you are to be Honest, if you're an atheist, you're like, it's an earthquake. It is an earthquake.

[A]

I call that an act of, of God. We've done a secular reading of that.

[B]

Okay, fair enough. Well, it is a devastating earthquake. And you know, the day that it strikes is kind of notable as well. It's on Holy Thursday, March 26, 1812. And what happens with this earthquake, which is just so unlucky for, you know, the independence movement is it particularly hits pro independence cities.

[A]

So I told you it was an act of God. There's no question. This is the hand of the Archangel Michael, it with his sword perfectly taking out these revolutionaries.

[B]

And well, that's what the church says. So that's, that is what the church. So do you remember in the last episode we were saying that those who were particularly loyal to the Spanish crown, that it was the church was loyal and then there were certain members of the church who were being less loyal and that was worrying. You know, the Peninsularis the Spanish back at home. But by and large, when the cities that are pro independence are hit very hard and weirdly, the royalist strongholds are pretty, you know, unscathed in a disaster that kills thousands of people. I mean, there are some estimates that suggest up to 20,000 people may have been killed by these earthquakes. Buildings are destroyed, infrastructure is destroyed. What comes from the pulpit, unsurprisingly, is God hates a revolutionary. God hates all these people who are trying to break away from the Spanish king. Who the hell are they? They are, they are not on the side of the angels. And Bolivar, you know, is, hears this from one particular, although it's being said from, you know, all church to church to church. And he responds to a priest's fire and brimstone sermon about how they're all damned and go to hell. And he says this is attributed to him, if nature opposes us, we shall fight against it and force it to obey.

[A]

It's very enlightenment, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah. Isn't it though? Isn't it? Exactly that Tito Salas, who's the father of modern art in South America, a lot later, I mean, he paints this terrible tragedy, something that breaks the soul of Venezuela and these terrible earthquakes. So it's certainly a thing that, you know, if you are from Venezuela, you know, when God didn't feel like he was on your side.

[A]

It's a rather wonderful painting. I'm thinking it now.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's.

[A]

And one of the wonderful reds and blacks and whites. It makes the whole earthquake look rather attractive.

[B]

I don't think that's what the artist intended.

[A]

But okay, so nature has punished Venezuela for declaring independence, but then the Spanish come in no uncertain manner. The Spanish captain Domingo de Monteverde leads a determined royalist counteroffensive from the West. Anita, tell us what happened. Happens.

[B]

Well, so the Republican forces are already, you know, depleted, because as I said, it was actually jolly bad luck that the earthquake hits their centers particularly hard. So, you know, they're struggling to mount any kind of effective resistance. And you've got regional militias and local leaders and, you know, no centralized control. There is a spirit of wanting freedom, but there is no organization behind how you get to that freedom.

[A]

So, yes, I mean, are the rebels in any sense coherent, or are they all split up and divided?

[B]

No, not at this point, no. I mean, the regional militias, you know, led by possibly rich and powerful men who are used to having their say in a particular region or plantation, but they may not be the best at, you know, leading a military force, and they're certainly not together.

[A]

This sounds a bit like 1857 in India that we had in our, in our mutiny series or our first War of Independence series, where all these different landowners are rising up, but they're not coordinating with each other. And the imperial colonial forces, which are centralized and coherent, can take them out one by one. Similar sort of thing.

[B]

Well, I mean, it's sort of been noticed that, you know, they spend as much time fighting each other as they do fighting the empire. And the reason that they are as divided apart from the fact, you know, that you've got these different people who aren't used to being told what to do, who are leading these military juntas, is that you have also class and racial tensions. So you have enslaved people or padros, mixed race people who are sometimes siding or often siding with the royalists, because the royalists come in and we saw this, did we not, with the British in the American Revolution. They are promising freedom to the slaves. They're just saying, you know, what, if you side with us, if you side with the Crown, we will grant you your freedom. And these guys who are leading the revolution, they are your slave drivers. Recognize him. It's his plantation that you used to work on. Recognize him? It's him who swallowed up your entire family. And you've been, you know, working for, for generations. So you oddly, you know, in an enslaved population is siding with the country that demanded the fruits of their labor until this point in time.

[A]

But is that a surprise? Because the, the, the creoles who are declaring independence are the, the slave owners.

[B]

Right, well, it works. It works because it's a narrative that makes sense. I mean, you know, you'd have to delete from your mind that this, you know, the Creoles were, were driving them to work so that they could send stuff to the Spanish monarchy. I mean, you'd have to delete that from your mind. But if you can do that and you believe the promise, sure, of course you would side with them, of course you would.

[A]

But I think again, we, we shouldn't expect 18th century revolutionaries to be Che Guevara. In a sense. We try to read these people backwards and turn them into Castros and Guevaras. And they're not, they're slave owners, they're plantation owners wanting more power and more control, which is a very different thing. Albeit ones who've had, you know, read a bit of Montesquieu and a bit of Voltaire.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I entirely don't disagree with this at all. We just remember in America, you know, the Founding Fathers were slave owners. Yeah, we went through all that is exactly the same thing. But, you know, people go through a

[A]

journey that is the parallel, isn't it? It's Washington all over again.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, Washington, Jefferson in particular, all over again. So where does Bolivar fit into all of this? Shall we talk about Bolivar's attitudes towards slavery?

[A]

You can read it both ways. There are, there are, is enough evidence in his letters and different times of his life to interpret him in different ways.

[B]

When he was young, he had a vested interest in this system because it's what his family did, it's what his family's always done. It's basically what made him a very, very rich and eligible bachelor. But, you know, he's also been steeped in these Enlightenment ideas. He's had a teacher who has exposed him to Enlightenment ideas. So, you know, he's got his own struggle, struggle happening within himself.

[A]

I think consistently, I think I'm right in saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, Anita, that he's always against democracy. He doesn't believe that Venezuela or Latin America or however he envisaged it at this point, that they're capable of running their own show, capable of running. And you know, he's not after a democratic system.

[B]

So I think that's so interesting. I think it's such an important point because this is what actually puts him in a collision course with Miranda, who, remember it was his brother in arms, because Miranda does believe in that, Miranda does believe that, you know, the people should have a say in this new world. That we are creating for them. Whereas Bolivar is not. So just getting back to the slavery thing, even though he's been exposed to these enlightenment thoughts when he's with his own creole allies, you know, the ones who are running the other juntas and who have the power, he tones down anything he might have thought about liberating the enslaved population. So if you give him the benefit of the doubt, why did he not speak out about ending slavery? As you know, you were talking about pragmatism before. The other reason, I mean, back to the battle with the Spanish, the reason that there was a great difficulty in pushing them back. The command structure is a mess. It's diabolical. You've got every man, jack, who thinks they should be in charge and nobody there to tell them. Actually, you know what? It would be much, much better if we followed that guy. They all think they're the guy. And for the others in Venezuela, particularly the rural areas, this feels like a big city swinger revolt. You know, these are the guys with the canes and the nice suits who are making all the noise. This is a city, it's nothing to do with us. So beyond the big cities like Caracas, there's limited support and appetite for this kind of chaos.

[A]

And why would anyone support these guys? They're the slave drivers. You know, there's no reason to have a popular revolt if the people leading the revolt are the slave owners.

[B]

Unless you're promising something like freedom, unless you're actually making it explicit, which people like Bolivar can't do, because then they lose all their lateral support. You can't make that promise. You'll lose all of the people who do have guns and men, and these

[A]

guys have kind of local militias. But while the Spanish forces have got a proper up and running, full scale military, and they're completely outgunned. So what does Miranda do?

[B]

So poor Miranda, right? Miranda is a brave man, there is no doubt about this. You know, he's sort of riding from militia to militia saying, you know, this is, come on, let's fight this. I need, you know, he's right at the front of this battle against the Spanish troops.

[A]

He's the Republic's military commander.

[B]

This is absolutely right. I mean, as much as you can command, you know, a ragtag army, that's not listening particularly. But when it just looks as though it's all going just dreadful. And he is, remember, you know, that Draco Malfoy face, Look him up, I mean, you know, sort of, he's. He is the face of independence. Independence. He's been watching his side being hammered, losing in blood and coin, and just showing no sign of being united or organized in any way. So he signs a capitulation with the Royalist commander, Captain Monteverdi, in July of 1812. And this is so shocking, weirdly shocking. I mean, because they're there, they can see what's happening. But Bolivar takes this as a personal betrayal.

[A]

Does Bolivar want to kind of lead a guerrilla action up in the hills, retreat into the mountains, all that sor of thing?

[B]

Or he just says, we, we fight until the last man. He is the guy who made that, you know, while there's blood in my veins, we shall fight, fight, fight for independence as a 22 year old. And he's still that guy.

[A]

So by 1812, Bolivar has risen up to be the other rival military commander. And after Miranda signs this capitulation, Bolivar reacts by having his friend arrested and he hands him over to the forces of the Spanish crown, which is effectively a death sentence. So this is a very sort of dodgy personal moment. Yeah.

[B]

And actually, towards the end of his life, will he, you know, he will express regret for what he did, you know, will be one of those decisions that will bother him into the rest of his life. And what happens to Miranda? What should I tell you? I mean, it's awful. It's a kind of a pitiful, pitiful end. He's taken into custody, he's moved to a prison in Cadiz and he dies just a few years later, you know, a broken, emaciated figure. So for a man who was celebrated as this, you know, the great dashing revolutionary. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he, he died considered a traitor to the cause by many and he died broken and far away from home. Sad. And we should talk about Bolivar because, you know, it's not safe for Bolivar to hang about now. The Spanish have won, so he has to get out. And he's kind of lucky enough to escape arrest, he doesn't go. You know, he hands Miranda over and he makes his getaway and he flees to Colombia. And it's in Colombia in 1813 that he makes this decision that will define his military career and also stay in his legacy forever. So, you know, we talk about how complicated this man is, because what he does is he says, this is going to be a war. War to the death. It's an infamous decree from Bolivar. Any Spaniard who did not actively support the revolution would be executed, full stop. Any American who supported Spain will be executed. This is total war. There is no quarter, there is no mercy.

[A]

This sounds very 20th century, doesn't it? This sounds like the sort of internal fighting of the Maoists or the Russian Revolution revolutionaries.

[B]

And it's not what Miranda believed. And Miranda said, you know, you, you have to let people, you know, give up. You have to let them raise a white flag. You have to, you know, you have to be magnanimous in victory. If you're, if you're going to have victory, you know, any counter revolutionary conspirators. Bolivar said, you know, kill him immediately when they were fighting. And he said, no, I, I don't think so. I don't think that's what we are, we're going to be about. Miranda says, you know, automatically if you're born in Spain, we shouldn't be kill you. Whereas Bolivar says, no, there's no place for them in Venezuela. If they were born in Spain, they can get out. So you see this, you know, actually quite extreme positioning of Bolivar. And if you needed more evidence, does he mean what he says? After one battle, you know, before he's fled, he orders a cold blooded execution of around 800 Spanish prisoners. Bolivar did do that. A staggering piece of violence. But Bolivar believed it is necessary. If you want a nationalist movement, if you want to scare your enemies, if you want to force Americans to choose sides and make collaboration with Spain impossible, that is what you're going to have to do.

[A]

Again, it sounds Stalinist or Maoist. This is again revolutionaries turning to really intense bloodshed and against all the kind of established rules of law and respecting prisoners, which is very much around in the 18th century. You don't, you don't massacre prisoners, dating cetera any more than you do in the 21st century. So the brutality goes both ways, doesn't it? The Spanish are also very brutal at this point. Tell us about that, Nita.

[B]

Let's crystallize them in the figure of one person who actually haunts Bolivar's nightmares. And his name is Jose Tomas Boves. If you sort of saw Miranda as a sort of luminous kind of character, Boves is not that okay, he's a

[A]

brute by the look of this portrait I've got in front of me at the moment.

[B]

This sort of, it's not great, is it?

[A]

No, I mean, describe kind of bull in epaulets and.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, and it's, and really sort of snarly, frowny. He had been a Spanish sailor, been arrested for smuggling and he'd been sent to the dungeons of Puerto Cabello. And then he was exiled to Venezuela where, you know, he fell in with this marauding bunch of Cowboys. He's described as being strong shoulders with an enormous head and piercing blue eyes and a pronounced sadistic streak.

[A]

Not the man you want opposing you at this point.

[B]

No, no, really not. And he ends up leading the legions of hell. Now these. These are hordes of wild plainsmen and mostly actual mixed race indigenous people.

[A]

This is a complicated lineup here. So the indigenous are against Bolivar.

[B]

They are, because, you know, he's Creole man. He. He's been driving us into the dirt for ages. So they hate him. So they join Bovis and they use the weaponry of the indigenous people. So they have these sort of long lances carved out of palm, hardened to, you know, sharp points, and you sort of heat them in the fire, and so the SAP hardens, and they're really very dangerous. And they fight while they ride a gallop. You know, they can hang from the side of their horses like, you know, the armies of Genghis Khan or Cossacks. You know, they. They are. They are deadly accurate. They are very frightening. And they ride with Bovis. And they don't fight for political ideology, but they want vengeance against this ruling class that has kept them down for such a long time. And the Spanish, you know, they come forward again and like, as they do to the enslaved people, they say to these indigenous people riding behind boves and these sort of, you know, the cowboys, if you like. They say, you will have freedom and we will give you land if you fight and if you kill them.

[A]

This again, has echoes with American series where the black slaves fight with the British in the War of Independence. And these are not simple blacks and whites. There's a lot of gray areas. If all the indigenous against Bolivar, and Bolivar is a slave owner hanging out with the plantation owners. It's a very different story to the one we had, for example, in Haiti, where it's the slaves rising up against the French. This is a very different story.

[B]

Bovis and his forces are absolutely brutal, and they really do show no mercy and no quarter. And you have cities that are sacked and atrocities become routine. And you have, by 1816, Bolivar, who keeps sort of dipping in and out, you know, trying to fight from wherever he can with whatever he's got, is defeated multiple times. And then he ends up on the run in 1816 from the legions of Hell, and he ends up in Jamaica.

[A]

I love the Legions of Hell.

[B]

Good. I'm glad you. I'm glad you do. He didn't so much, but he ends up first in Jamaica, and then he goes to Haiti, which you've just been Talking about.

[A]

So he flees to his fellow slave owners in Jamaica. Jamaica is at this point the biggest slave center in 1811 in the world.

[B]

It's not uninteresting, is it not uninteresting at all that he does that.

[A]

I was expecting a much more interesting or sort of hero. We started off with him, you know, as this sort of, sort of Latin lover boy with his fancy wife and everything.

[B]

But actually you get, I told you, it's complicated. But both things can be true. You can feel sorry for the, you know, the young kid who's kind of all at a loss and sort of floating around and, you know, losing everybody he's ever cared about to, you know, this slightly brutal, dodgy, very dodgy thoughts about warfare.

[A]

Resting his best friend, massacring prisoners. He's not, he's not an easy hero, this guy.

[B]

Not easy, no. But, you know, on Empire, we don't serve them up simple and two dimensional, do we? But if you want to see how, you know, these visits to Jamaica and Haiti will influence his political views and his legacy, and you can't wait, just join our club for the price of a coffee a month. Empirepod uk.com Empirepod uk.com and you get these miniseries all in one go. Till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Ananda, and goodbye

[A]

from me, William Durham.

[C]

It is out of control in the White House right now.

[D]

Welcome to the Rest Is Politics us. I'm Katie Kay.

[C]

I'm Anthony Scaramucci, who is the worst politician in Washington right now.

[D]

They don't know how to manage Donald Trump.

[C]

I talked to the people that organized the abduction. I'm telling you why they did it.

[D]

The White House is in a bind.

[C]

Antony, here's what I would say to

[D]

you about the chaos is the strategy,

[C]

it should not have happened and it is a violation of international law.

[D]

Is he losing control of the party?

[C]

I survived 11 days in Trump's White House. I know the SOB.

[D]

I've been covering politics in Washington for almost 30 years. Twice a week, we break down what's really going on on in Trump's White House.

[C]

The big issue for the United States is going to be we were once seen as a benevolent superpower and now we're seen as an aggressor.

[D]

You know, he can lie about a lot of things, but he can't lie about what people are feeling about the economy.

[C]

If you really want to understand what's going on in Trump's mind, just search. The Rest is Politics us Wherever you get your podcasts.