What if saying "no" could actually strengthen your relationships—and your business?

In this episode, Hayleigh sits down with Dr. Jen Fry—former college volleyball coach turned professional speaker, PhD, and tech entrepreneur—to discuss the art of setting boundaries, navigating conflict, and building a business with backbone.

Jen shares her journey from coaching for 15 years to becoming a sought-after speaker on conflict and culture, launching a tech startup (Cordal), and writing her book I Said No: How to Have a Backbone and Boundaries Without Being a Jerk.

In this conversation, you'll discover:

Why people-pleasing is actually being unreliable
How to practice "micro advocacy" to build your no muscle
The real cost of resentment in business decisions
Why validation of your idea doesn't guarantee revenue
The humbling truth about starting a tech company
How to know when you "hate it enough" to make the leap

Whether you're struggling to set boundaries with clients, contemplating your next business pivot, or just need permission to stop people-pleasing, this episode will leave you feeling empowered to advocate for yourself—without the guilt.

About Jen Fry:

Dr. Jen Fry is a professional speaker, author, PhD in sport geography, and founder of Cordal, a group travel coordination tech platform. After 15 years as a college volleyball coach, Jen pivoted to professional speaking in 2019, focusing on conflict navigation and cultural transformation. Her book I Said No: How to Have a Backbone and Boundaries Without Being a Jerk is available now. Jen is known for her direct, compassionate approach to helping people—especially women—advocate for themselves fearlessly.

Connect with Jen:

Website: JenFryTalks.com
Book: I Said No (available on her website with stickers and swag, or on Amazon/Barnes & Noble)
Social Media: @JenFryTalks on all platforms

3 Action Steps from This Episode:

Know your relationships are worth conflict. Conflict shows us the depth of our relationships—avoiding it keeps you surface-level.
Your first "no" is the easiest. When you say no to someone, prepare for others to try to change your mind. Have a plan and hold your boundary.
You're always healed until you go home. Practice leaving situations where people make you uncomfortable—you don't owe anyone your presence when they're unkind.

Connect with me, Hayleigh Hayhurst:

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Music: John Kiernan. www.johnkiernanmusic.com

Produced by Espresso Podcast Production: https://www.espressopodcastproduction.com/

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