Weston Hendricks (6:51)

Hey, that's awesome. I absolutely love it. It's tremendous success throughout the years, of course. And just to kick it off, you talked about you in high school and watching your dad and following his footsteps. I guess the first question I'd have for you, Mark, is from high school collegiately or even state or national major shows, how all does that correlate in terms of judging? How do you go from one to the other and be successful at it in its path?

Dr. Mark Hogue (7:26)

Well, first of all, my father and I have pursued eerily similar paths in terms of our passion for livestock or judging in the show ring. In fact, two weeks ago, he and I judged the winter Warm Up Cattle show together in Springfield, Illinois. And it was fun to watch and work with him. You know, he always encouraged me to be my own individual. He never made me do anything that I didn't want to do. When he would get home from shows as a, as a young guy, we would go through the Showbox magazine, you know, and we would go through the Seed Stock Edge or the journals and we would look at shows that he judged and we would talk about livestock. He always took, took me with him when it's time to go buy a boar or, or go buy show steers or sheep, We. We went together. And whether. Whether he listened to my grandpa, my grandpa, Hope Brewer, was very influential in my livestock passion. I always traveled with them, and they always made it feel like I had an opinion that mattered. I don't know if they ever listened, but at least they made me feel like I did. And so that was that initial hook. Then from that point on, you would, I hope, would ask any student that went to western or anybody that I've ever worked with. I try to be the same human being at home that I am in the classroom that I am in the show ring, because I found that if you try to wear too many different faces, you're going to get confused on who you are yourself. And so I try to be pretty true to myself that I try to be a judge that I would want my children to show to. I try to be a teacher that I would want my children to learn from. And hopefully I try to be a person that people would want to hang out with in a positive nature. And so that's kind of how I've done it. I don't ever look and say, okay, I've got this status. I've got to maintain this status. I look at every show as the next opportunity. You know, I need to prove myself. I don't ever look back and say, well, I've done this show, this show, this show, so I'm awesome. This game will humble a person very, very quickly. As soon as you think you're cool, you will be very uncool. And so I try to try to take every show always nervous. Whether it's a little one or a big one, I'm always nervous before the first class. And my fear is if I'm not nervous, then I'm probably not going to perform very well. I think we would all agree that when the nerves are there and the pressure's there and that the focus is required, we all rise to the occasion just a little more effectively.

Augustus Sexton (10:03)

Absolutely. I love that concept. And so rolling on, we want to know what's the reasons room like now compared to when you were in high school, when you were in college? How have you seen that evolution change?

Dr. Mark Hogue (10:18)

You know, I still love to get in the van. We just got back from the winter workout trip. We go to a lot of great livestock producers in Oklahoma. We finished the week at Griswold's judging contest and got a new group. And I love the grounded pound. I think the closer you are to the the trenches, the more vested you are. And so we we start there. Of all the different aspects of coaching and teaching, I probably enjoy the evolution in the reasons room as much as any. Okay. It's always been reasons, grants, criticism, transition reasons, grants, criticism. But if we said it a particular way last year, I want to say it better this year. I would be the first to admit there's absolutely no way with anybody with gray hair like myself thinks that we could roll today. The youth of today, you're tremendous speakers, and I don't know, you can look at travel, basketball, travel, volleyball. You know, students start so young at, you know, perfecting their craft, whatever their craft or interest may be. We've got some incredibly talented speakers today that are competing at the community college level, that are competing at the senior college level. And so the concepts are the same. The best livestock win, the worst ones go forth. And then accuracy should be the determining factor. But when you have to listen to 150 sets of reasons as an official, all of a sudden presentation and polish becomes pretty important. I tell our students, if you can give a set of reasons and that person on the other side of the desk wants to give you their checkbook to go buy livestock, that will be a high set, you know, and so you've got a minute and 35 seconds to establish street credibility with that official, convey your opinion, build trust, and get a high score. And I think it's really, it's amazing what the young people today are doing.

Weston Hendricks (12:21)

So with that said, what I would like to know is, in your opinion, how has the youth evolved over the years in terms of being livestock evaluators? Not just in the reasons room, but outside on the floor, in the grass, in the dirt?

Dr. Mark Hogue (12:34)

You know, I often tell people at a university, you know, people always wonder, is the university farms, are they important, are they not? I don't think that the university farms have been as important today, maybe as ever in the history of universities, because we are seeing not a detachment, but. But there's a lot of students that aren't first, you know, they are not third generation livestock producers. They may be first generation, they may be second. Their exposure to raising livestock may have been three fat steers, two show sheep, you know, five goats and ten Barretts. Okay, well, you can learn a tremendous amount from that. But all of a sudden, that ability to have that. Well, I spent time with grandpa sorting fat cattle. I spent time with, you know, Uncle Fred loading fat hogs, you know, at three in the morning. And then I went to the sale barn with my neighbor. We bought a thousand Spanish nannies, kicked them on the mountainside. And that's what we do. There isn't that type of connection to the numbers. And so what we have today is we have very, very polished property presenters that want a game plan. And our, we had a good judging team last year and they wanted, they wanted the game plan. They're like, oh, just tell us what to do and we'll do it. Well, after Louisville, this is what I probably come to the conclusion you folks at a junior college and our senior college ranks, we expect perfection as coaches. We expect for, you know, perfection as teammates, and we expect that of ourselves. But, but the problem is livestock judging is a, is an art. That, that is an evolutionary process. There is not a roadmap that says this is how we're going to do it every time. And that's the subjectivity of it. And I think people that want that immediate answer. We were at Griswold's. Hey, our, our crew, we didn't do very good. But I'll be honest with you, there was one of them heifer calf glasses when I started with the officials put forth, and our team's like, oh, golly, are you mad? I said, no, it's been judging baby heifer calves. You know, there's a lot of different ways to skin the cat. I said, let's go back and look at them. Let's ponder. You know, too many of us today are too quick to say, well, that was terrible. That's terrible. Go to a basketball game. I was at a basketball tournament yesterday and I about lost my marbles at the, at the referees, you know, And I'm like, I told my wife, I said, hey, if I do a bad job job judging a livestock show, people will tell me, so why can't I tell the refs? Yesterday they were poor at their job, okay? And my wife's like, you can't do that. And so I didn't. But, but, you know, that's the, the level of expectation and the perfection that we want. The problem is this is a process. And so as coaches, we need to understand that maybe some of our really competitive, passionate judging team members in the van aren't third generation livestock producers. So let's take time to learn about the industry. Let's learn about the production concepts. Like how many of us love to look at EPD's. Well, not many of our students do. But the problem is that is a major factor in selling commercial bulls. We need to understand what that number means, how it was calculated. Then how would you use it in a production setting. And so at my age, I'm committed to keeping that gap bridged. Yes, I want to win contests, but I want to make sure that our students that get out of the van after Louisville understand the industries that they represented.

Weston Hendricks (16:09)

I think everybody who admires livestock judging will appreciate that.

Dr. Mark Hogue (16:14)

Yeah.

Augustus Sexton (16:15)

And so stemming from what you just said, you are very involved in multiple different species. One thing I want to know is what is something that you appreciate or value or are impressed by with each species that you are involved with that your kids show? And what are things that you would maybe like to see changed?

Dr. Mark Hogue (16:41)

Well, let's start with pigs. Like I said, I grew up showing steers, bears and lambs. Goats were not a thing back when I was shown goats were a thing. They were dairy goats. They were in another barn, I guess I never, never saw him. But anyway, so I showed, you know, lambs, steers, and. And we raised on embarrass and. And so I was, you know, labeled a pig guy early. And I don't like labels. I never have. I think we're good stockman. I think our goal as an industry and our goal as educators and livestock judging team coaches are to create good stockmen. And so we'll start with pigs. I grew up showing crossbred bears. Had a couple little boys. We were going to go to the world pork expo. So I'm like, I need some breed hogs. So I got me some yorks. I bought a durag bara, Chester, poland spot. I fed them all. I thought I was a good barrel feeder until I fed a down ear dog. Okay. I bought the durocks same way I did the crosses. 180 pounds or hind legs blew off. Chester's got bull necked from one day to the next. And polands don't respond to pain length. And so all of a sudden, I thought I was a good barra feeder. I thought I was a good judge. But I fed those kinds of breeds. And I realized right away, man, that that's a different. That's a different cat to skin. And so in my opinion, I became a better evaluator at that particular junction. The next thing we did. I love showing cattle. If I tell people if disposable income was not an issue and I had a lot of disposable income, I would hate to guess how many heers I could pack on this 5 acres. Love showing cattle. I think the grind that it takes to be committed to purchasing that project and then going from there. I tell people buying a bear up front is okay, but Feeding and keeping a bear healthy will. Will send you to the poor house if you can afford to heifer up front. The maintenance cost of that big room in it isn't nearly as bad as what you'd think. Feeding a couple Barretts. Love the cattle. I love the. The connection between the show ring and the commercial sector. The beef cattle and cattle showing rings are probably the closest of the four species started showing sheep. I'm telling you, we were just in Oklahoma judging sheep, and I've told people that's probably the best market creature because they've focused on rib design and built for so long. It's really good. Sheep are really good. But this is what's interesting. And I tell our students, you're going to ask me what I want to fix in all the species. I don't have the answers. I love the creature. I love the industry. I pose challenges to students. Here's my challenge in the sheep deal. Right now, artificial insemination comes up. The entire sheep population is becoming inbred. You know, they're becoming line bred. And there's not an option. There's not another step. And so any shepherd, any sheep breeder that I talk to, I'm like, hey, what's your next step? I told Jared Borg he bought out outsider, the old Charlie bull.

Weston Hendricks (19:46)

Yep.

Dr. Mark Hogue (19:46)

I said, first time I ever saw outsider, I was like, boy, you better start making an outcross right now because this bull is about to radically change this breed. Yes. You pick. Guys are always worried about an outcross. Didn't take but three generations. And. And the charolays are seeking an outcross in the show ring. Charlize, It'll be interesting what the sheep population will do next because they have got them so stout and so round and so, so good. Where's that next step to lengthen hip to maybe elevate. It's going to be great. The goat population, holy buckets. I have never seen. And you've got to keep in mind, I call it the Taco Bell syndrome. What is that? We Americanize everything. So we bring the Borgo in. Norman goals. They bring the Borgoed in from South Africa. We taco bella. All right. I mean, we want to jazz them up, take them. We imported cattle from Europe in the 19 late 60s. We Taco Bell syndrome. We Taco Bell everything. What is that? Grand day size? We want a gallon of coke. We want six tacos. And they better be big and they better be unique and they better be burly. Well, the goats are radically changing, but in my opinion right now, we're just at Louisville and I love listening. I don't raise goats. I don't raise, you know, sheep. We raise cattle. Jared Blair runs cattle. I just try to try to keep up with the pigs and so I don't have the answers. But right now the goat industry to me is in an identity crisis because we're just starting. The goats came in the mid-90s. We're still really selecting in some unique ways. And so all of a sudden we're really starting to say, do we want goats big and pretty? Do we want them little and wide and stout, round bodied? And I told Cooper, I said, hey, you make these things too tall, too long and too level, hip, too fast, they're going to look like a Nubian goat because there's not enough generations of muscle bread, it ain't meat goat yet to elevate in Taco Bell syndrome. And so it's going to be wild to see what happens. I love the population. One thing about population genetics that, that the gene frequency is going to change. It's our job as animal breeders to guide the change in a favorable direction. And so it's going to be exciting. Do we, do we want goats big and tall? Do we want them little around? I like balance. I think balance will always keep you right. If that animal makes sense to itself and you look at that animal individually and it all fits, that is unique proportionality and balance to the extreme. You know, Cooper Bound sometimes says, oh, you talk balance and people pick common stuff. They're. That's complete. I don't mind complete creatures, but I want the unique pieces to all fit together on one package. And I think if you do that, I think frame size, I think those types of phenotypes take care of themselves.

Weston Hendricks (22:39)

Absolutely. Yes, sir. One thing I want to tack on real quick, you talked about taking things to the next level and how things have, have radically changed per se. Let's look at the spot bore that was picked out for the Iowa State Fair. I believe correct or per se Americans winning Texas Majors. What I want to know is how often do you think that's going to come around nowadays, especially with livestock changing in different breeds and becoming elite more so like crosses or exotics or Hampshires for.

Dr. Mark Hogue (23:14)

Well, this is what's interesting. We want to talk about. Judges are in charge and animal breeders are in charge of what the creature is going to look like. And let's, let's take the show ring, those that breed livestock for the show ring and those that breed livestock in a commercial setting. Okay. Any phenotype is a measurable characteristic that has multiple genes that influence that phenotype. Okay, here's the key. Whatever's worth money is going to be where we're going. And what's sad to say is money drives everything. And I was thinking today about what we talk about on our podcast. If you look at a commercial Angus bull, okay, the commercial Angus bull breed more cows in the country than any other breed. Okay, what is a really good commercial bull look like? Is he hairy? No. Does he have big bones? No. Why? Because the commercial cowman's not paid for hair bone.

Weston Hendricks (24:12)

Correct.

Dr. Mark Hogue (24:12)

Let's look at the little fat steer that brings 50 bazillion. Is he hairy?

Augustus Sexton (24:18)

You bet.

Dr. Mark Hogue (24:19)

Does he have the fat legs?

Weston Hendricks (24:21)

Oh, yeah.

Dr. Mark Hogue (24:21)

Oh, yeah. Okay, now, is his birth weight negative 7 on an EPD? No. Because that club calf producer is not getting paid for like calf. He's getting paid for the bells and whistles after weenie. And so, you know, where are we going in terms of an industry? Uniqueness will always prevail in my opinion. Sometimes people are like, you're hard to follow. And I'm like, no, if it's unique and if it's memorable, that's good. What I like is, and what I challenge your generation with is we need to stack and think about breeding livestock in a three generation interval. Too many of us want the instant gratification of a champion. So what do we do? Buy a flush on a champion cow, breed it to it, flush on a unit of semen on a champion bull, and we're going to make champions. Well, here's the problem that might result. A favorable animal to sell, but what are you going to do in the next two generations to make it better? That's why I love going on livestock judging trips and workouts. I love visiting with breeders and I love taking our students. And yes, we'll judge all the classes that are sorted. But then if they say, hey, do you want to go look at a herdbore? You want to go look at fallborn goats? Absolutely. If we got to take headlights and flashlights, let's go do it. Because I want to see where their program's going, you know, and I think that's important. And so, you know, genetics that are available particularly in the small ruminants, the. The accessibility to elite goat semen and elite ram semen has changed the game in small ruminants. It really has, because you can have five ewes and raise some of the best sheep in the country simply based on AI. So genetics It'll continue to be interesting what happens.

Augustus Sexton (26:15)

Okay, so now we want to talk a little bit about Fort Worth and what's to be expected with your last year judging the steer show. I mean, in 2024. I feel like a lot, from what I've heard visiting with a lot of people through the barns, they thought you were just going to go pick the real pretty calves, and there was a handful of those real good looking ones that probably weren't as stout. That's still branded. But I feel that you were picking a lot more chunky, thick calves than what they were expecting and then shocked everyone in the drive. So talk to us. Kind of your thought process, working through the show, you know, kind of like a. A post sort almost what you thought of it and what you have, what expectations you have going forward to the 2025 Fort Worth Steers.

Dr. Mark Hogue (27:12)

Very similar to this podcast. I like to see a fresh approach. I don't want to. I don't want to do a lot of re. I just want to go and I want things to hit me uniquely. This is what I will tell you at the Fort Worth Stock show because obviously, as a show judge, when I was your age to 25, I thought there was nobody that had more friends than me. I thought I was majorly talented and just a good guy and a great personality and a great sense of humor. The more shows you judge, the friend list continued to dwindle in terms of getting shorter. So what will happen when people walked away from Fort Worth last year? Well, the first thing is hope doesn't like black calves, and Hogue loves Americans. Okay.

Weston Hendricks (28:01)

Yep.

Dr. Mark Hogue (28:02)

I really don't have any color bias. What happened is the population of livestock will determine what the champion drive looks like. Okay? So those cattle start coming around that, that blue tarp. And I'll be honest with you, that morning I called my dad and I stepped on the fort worthy rounds and said, dad, I'm always nervous, but I man, I'm. I'm about to throw up. I am very, very nervous. I don't know if I can do this. He goes, oh, be true to yourself. Do what you believe in and you'll be fine. That man, lightweight Angus. I bet I walk 30 miles in the lightweight Angus. When I get nervous, I pace, okay? I move a lot. And I pulled what I liked. I pulled body types that I like. I like livestock, particularly cattle. Noise asked, do you like hair or slick? I don't care. I want them as hairy and cool and fuzzy as you can make them. But if they sneeze and all their hair falls out. You. Then you don't throw up on the wash rack. Okay? My favorite time of year for our little program here in Good Hope is when we slick shear heifers in April. And, you know, in March, man, mid March, when you slick your heifer, you know if you have a Louisville contender or not without hair. So I start sorting. I start sorting. And I was really surprised. I thought that first day cattle fit together well, it was day two and these cattle were wet. And I'm like. And I told the guys in the. The superintendents that wear the green blazers, the very first class. I said, hey, I might keep more than 10. I know you want 10, but I don't want to miss one, okay? I'm as concerned at missing one that could have been 10th as I am finding the champion. So I might keep a few more than 10, but it's not because I don't know what I like. I just don't. I don't want to miss one. And they're like, okay, okay, that's fine. Well, what are you going to do with 11 through 15 or 16? I said, well, I want to talk about them because I want to sell hope. Judges need to sell hope that, hey, you were close this year. Fix a couple things, and next year you'll make the sale. You'll catch a brand. Okay? As judges, I'll be honest with you. There's too much right now of negativity, okay? Oh, this one's terrible. This one's terrible. This way. I don't want to go to a show of my livestock and take them outside and load them on the fat truck because they're all bad. You know, I want to hear, hey, if this thing does this or does that could be good. The second day, cattle were coming in wet. Well, what happened is they don't have fans in the barn at Fort Worth, and it was hot, okay? And so cattle that held together better in the ring, it's a long process to get that steer from the barn with no fans in the holding area, in the alley, in the ring, work around the ring. And so what I found interesting is cattle that were more moderate in their extensions held together better in their top line. The better bodied cattle held together better. And what I really believe I've judged way more slickshawn show major shows in Texas, because Fort Worth, the only hair show, and that was my first time judge at Fort Worth, is that I firmly believe the cattle that did well, we could have peeled them off and taken them to San Antonio and they would have been good or taken them to Austin, you know, or San Angelo. Those cattle were good haired steers. They were good, slick steers. Okay, I like him pretty, but I, if I'm the stoutest, if I'm stouter than the creature I'm about to use, that is not a good sign. Okay? I want to be the ugliest, fattest, frailest thing in the picture. And if I am, then it was a good show. And so I felt comfortable with the cattle that I used. I liked what I used. You know, the biggest challenge is going in this year. You know, I can't let last year's population of steers define what's going to happen this year. It's a different set of cattle. So hopefully that they come around that blue tarp and they give me goosebumps and they're going to have a good day. If I don't get the warm and fuzzies when that thing comes around the blue tarp in about three steps. Gonna be a tough day.

Weston Hendricks (32:01)

Yes, sir.

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Augustus Sexton (33:02)

I think you will be plenty exhilarated seeing what's coming this year. I've seen some pictures and they are going to be impressive.

Dr. Mark Hogue (33:13)

Well, here's the thing that you, you three are relatively spoiled because I can, I could talk about local shows, district shows, Texas majors. I have never, and this is on a stack of big bibles. I have never been to that state and had a poor show.

Weston Hendricks (33:33)

I agree, I agree.

Dr. Mark Hogue (33:35)

You know, my first, my first show in Texas was in a little ag barn in Hereford, Texas. It was a Friday night and the town was vacated because there's an away football game and man, I was nervous and I was judging bears thinking I was the bee's knees, you know. And that was a lot less gray hair than I have today. But that was an excellent show and I Still remember it today, you know, and the folks in Texas know how to show livestock. And so I, I don't doubt that it won't be an incredible last year I thought was an amazing set. I expect no less this year.

Weston Hendricks (34:07)

Yes, sir.

Augustus Sexton (34:08)

And that's one thing I do want to commend you on. You talk about how you don't want to miss one. That was another, I'd say a big buzz in the barn is saying that you truly cared and that you, there was not a single kid who got overlooked. You the ones who didn't pull, you walked back through and looked through them to make sure that you had every good calf. And you talked on the mic. Hell, if there's a real good one out there, I want to pull them. I may know this one's probably not going to make the sale, but hey, that is a really good calf. I'm a pull up and let that family know that they did excellent job with this animal.

Dr. Mark Hogue (34:44)

Well, it probably one of my most memorable memories of working in the ring. I was going around the outside rail and this young lady had a, had a show harness and a show halter that matched and it was tool leather. Absolutely gorgeous. Okay. Like, wow. Wildly unique. I'd never seen anything like it. And I stopped, I said, young lady, I just want you to know that your show harness and that show altered the gray calf. He was well fed, but genetically I was never meant to be. Okay, but a well fed calf, but genetically wasn't there. I said, I want you to know that's the coolest show alter and show harness I've ever seen. And her uncle in Mexico hand tool made it and shipped it to her for Fort Worth. See, moments like that, if a judge takes just a trifle bit of time to connect with people, not just the champion, you know, they talk about life changing money for grand reserve. That is life changing money. But I will tell you the difference between being 10th and 11th, that's life changing money for somebody.

Weston Hendricks (35:54)

Absolutely.

Dr. Mark Hogue (35:55)

And so those decisions. Don't think for a second that, that those decisions aren't important to me. They've always been important. Once I've been a show dad and understand the challenge. Hey, when our boys are little, if we could find the kid, if we could find the kid and the animal and get at the right class, we should have got a ribbon as a parent, you know, and so all these parents, the amount of money that we put into our children graciously, we, we love doing it. Everybody there loves doing it. And we do it because we believe in our children. And so as a result, as a judge, we better, we better hold up our end of the bargain.

Weston Hendricks (36:35)

Absolutely. So I'm going to ask two questions and you can answer them separately. One is, do you think we lack the mindset that you have as a judge in show rings? More. So I'll get into detail on this being interactional with the kids themselves and or giving more opportunities to kids in the ring with their livestock. Then the next question I'm going to ask is, I want to know your opinion and thought on the phrase you have to judge collegiately to judge a major or state show. I've heard this saying before and I've gotten the same answer every time. But I want you to answer it because I know how you feel about it in your heart.

Dr. Mark Hogue (37:21)

No. Well, let's start on the first one. And here's the key. Oh, we had a, we had a really good sermon today and it actually resonated with a little bit of this. You know, we always talk about, you know, how should one live? Okay, well, obviously everybody's going to make their own choices in terms of how they want to live. But in a ring, I want to make sure that I would be an example that somebody could maybe find interest to mirror after. Okay. And so in a ring, I don't have time to get to know every calf's name and tell everybody, great job on your sport. If I take a little more time judging or connecting with a student, I'm going to shorten up the amount of time I talk on the microphone because it is time management. You have to be effective at your time management. I tend to be a top down placer. I can do it better that way. If I find what I like, I can build things on it. And when you get to have a rhythm, and I always ask the show officials, when do you want to be done? And once I know when they want to be done, then I will adjust accordingly. I will tell you that I judged. One of the most intense experiences I've ever had was judging the sheep show at Houston when at noon. They said, corona has come. We're shutting down Houston. And they're like, hey, you got to finish the show today. And I told the folks Scott Griner and he was doing the goats. I was eating a quesadilla. He was eating a quesadilla. It's good. I'm like, oh, I guess hair sheep and maybe South Downs. I'll be the rodeo by six. And they're like, no, no, no. You have to do those breeds and then you have to do the 850 crosses. The media wolves by tonight. And I'm like, oh, man. Griner's like, what are we going to do? I said, I'm, I'm hungry. I'm going to finish my case and then we're going to talk to the superintendents. Said, this is what we're going to do. The Houston Livestock show committees are so passionate about youth and they want to give banners and they want to give hugs. And I said, they're going to do that over in the corner. And I said, the gentleman when I point, I want 40 sheep in here and we're going to go through them. And I said, I will handle every sheep and we're not going to do waybacks because those sheep that are showing tomorrow most likely would weigh out today. Because I fed stock before, so I understood that aspect and I said, we're going to do this and I'll be done by 10pm and they're like, no way. If you do it that way, it'll be 3am I did exactly that and handed the microphone over after the champion drive at 9:58. Okay, that takes some years of experience to understand where at, where I'm at. Halfway through, Dr. Ramsey said, hey, if I didn't know any different, you're liking this? I said, no, actually, this is horrible. But I said, some of us condition ourselves for high pressure situations like this to do exactly that. Okay? I don't want, and I don't think that we're doing a bad job as judges. I get tired of people saying, oh, there's no good judges. They're out there. There are good judges out there. All I would encourage people to do when they grab a microphone in a junior show, be positive, sell hope and do what needs to be done. Because people with money to spend on livestock are not unintelligent people. If things don't make sense to them, they're going to buy a great big boat, two Jet Skis and go to the lake. Our industry can't handle that. Our industry needs to grow. So just be positive. Sell. The thing that I get frustrated with, I'll be honest with you. If you as a judge have a bur in your saddle and you want to prove a point that, you know, cattle are over aged or sheep or manufactured or goats need to walk backwards and you're just passionate about it, a junior livestock show really isn't the place to do it. Go to an open show judge, an open breeding livestock show and tell the breeders to fix it. Because the vast majority of those kids at a junior show, they bought a project, they fed it every day. Whoever they bought it from is what its age is, it's what its confirmation is. And we just want to show we want to have a good time with our camp, a good time at the fair, and we want to go home and do it again next year. And so I think sometimes the younger the judge, the more passionate they want to prove themselves. They're picking the wrong place to prove that their point, you know, life's about timing and you got to be at the right time, at the right place to say the right thing in terms of informative nature. So that would be my take. There's lots of good judges. I go to a lot of shows and enjoy showing. I enjoy listening, I enjoy, I enjoy watching different judges work. Now you need to go to a collegiate college to judge. That was your second question, correct?

Weston Hendricks (42:32)

Yes, sir, it sure was.

Dr. Mark Hogue (42:33)

Do you need to go to juco senior college? I think that a lot of our students, if it wasn't for collegiate livestock judging. Right now, the value of education, the value of a four year degree to me has been a little questioned. You could be a tick tock social influencer at 16, have tattoos all over your face, drive a Lamborghini and actually have no ability to write a paper. You know, but you got, you got some niche of a following of a million followers and you can make money. Okay, the value of a four year degree is important. What collegiate livestock judging does is keep the student involved, keep them committed. Because not everybody wants to go to geology or biology every day. But you see the end and there's a cause. Okay. I think when you judge at a juco and senior college level, the number of places you go, the number of different livestock that you see, definitely helps form your perspective. Now does that mean that you have to, to judge a show? Absolutely not. I've called some of the best judges. It's real easy. I told Brady Ragland when he's at San Antonio years ago, he's like, oh, we need Snoop. Big judges need some new judges. I said, cool. Go to a show, a big one, get you an icy and a popcorn, Sit in the stands and every animal that you like, the way it's fit, the way it's shown, the way it's presented. If look on the back in Oklahoma, you know, they get their ag chapter, you know, or let's say there's a, there's a group that's doing well. Well, write down their numbers Go back in the barn to the alley where all those animals are stalled and say, who's in charge? Whoever raises their hand, hire them to judge, okay? George Cooper did a great job judging our jackpot show, Pig show years ago. He calls me two days before he goes, oh, God. I never talked on the microphone. I never gave reasons. I can't judge. I said, george, you're not canceling me now. I got faith, you know, Good stuff. I don't care if you stumble, I don't care if you stammer, but take the microphone and talk like you're talking to your families in the grass, checking on their bears before Hawaii. That's all you got to do, okay? And so you give those types of people opportunities. And I think it's tremendous. I think our officials at national contest, if you are making major stocks, selling major stock, I want you in the reasons room. I want you listening, I want you on the committee, and I want you making decisions on that committee. And I want you to listen to our reasons, okay? If you are a major player that's in the trenches, in the trenches, doing the daily grind, Cabin cows, farrow and a sow that had no pigs alive today, you go through those types of experiences, man, on a daily basis. The good and the bad of raising livestock will keep you real humble. That is what we need to focus on. And so I'm not committed and tied that you have to be on a national champion team to be a national collegiate judge. Okay? We got some real good stockman that have come through our program that didn't even get cards at Lowell, But. But in their species, they're absolutely killing it. So I think collegiate judging is about the experience and the process and the. In the meeting, your friends and your teammates and all the great stockman that we meet in a year, I love it. It's my favorite part of it contest here, that, that. That's the end result. Yeah. We all want to win a contest, but if you're doing it just to win a contest, you have missed the boat, Johnny.

Weston Hendricks (46:06)

Yes, sir.

Dr. Mark Hogue (46:07)

Completely missed the boat.

Weston Hendricks (46:09)

I agree.

Augustus Sexton (46:10)

I have a quote right here above my desk that says, don't let a contest define who you are. Let the way you live your life do that.

Dr. Mark Hogue (46:18)

Amen. There's a lot of truth to that. Absolutely. I will tell you. I do a lot of self reflecting after a show, after a lecture, after a workout, after listening to reasons. I'll listen to reasons and our team will tell. I get all fired up and I'm thinking a new phrasing and I'm feeding off of what they're saying, and it's so awesome. And then I drive home, and I'm like, oh, God, that was too much. You know, I need to pump the brakes. So. So anyway, the next day, I'm like, hey, guys, all that stuff I said, I was. I thought I was on a heater. No, no, we probably don't need to go there. So. You know, I love the process. I love the process that the livestock industry. It is because there's no exact answer. You can win a major stock show, you can win a major contest. You can be a major influence in this industry one of a thousand different ways. There is not an exact path to success. You three on this podcast tonight, dude, you just wanted to do it. You guess how cool that is at your age? Somebody asked me, hey, you want to start a podcast? Yeah, sure. That sounds good. I don't even know how to get on this thing tonight. You know, I think it's awesome. I really do. And I think we're in a great place if we as a. As we as educators and coaches and industry people say, oh, you know, the sky's falling. It's terrible. It's terrible. The only thing we could control in a day is our attitude. That is the only thing that you can actually control 100 of the time. So every day, I'm an upbeat mother trucker, you know, and I want to. If I can go to bed as half as upbeat as I started the day, it's all good. And when that. That attitude is so contagious, I think that's what happens in show rings, you know, when the judge is pumped up and high five and getting down and talking good stock, man. Everybody goes back to barn. Whether you're first or third. You're like, that was pretty dirty. I don't mind that. I'll do that again, you know, so.

Weston Hendricks (48:16)

Absolutely. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Augustus Sexton (48:20)

Okay, so you just talked about judging in. In the ring. What are some of your biggest pet peeves in the ring?

Dr. Mark Hogue (48:29)

Oh, that. That kids do.

Weston Hendricks (48:31)

Yeah, yeah, kids, whatever.

Augustus Sexton (48:34)

Multispecies, anything.

Dr. Mark Hogue (48:36)

Okay. Okay. This. All right, now, I don't know. And please, if anybody's. I don't know what your following audience is, but. But you got to keep in mind parents. I'm also a parent, and trust me, if we can get through the day as parents, like I said earlier, we all need a ribbon. Okay, here's. Here's what I love, and I always start positive. I tell our students that when I ask you to describe a piece of livestock to me and you start negative, I will make you start over. I don't care how bad they are. Okay. I love the eye of the tiger. When that showman hits the ray, you can look in their eye and realize the taste that they have to be successful. That, to me, means a tremendous amount. Now, that creature that is following them in the ring or they're driving in the ring, I look at the. I look in their eye, and they got the eye of the tiger, and they're leading around a giant rhinoceros. That is awesome. That is what that. You know, showing livestock's a team sport, man. You know what I mean?

Weston Hendricks (49:47)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hogue (49:47)

You're driving a barrage, and they're. They're looking through you. Not a cheesy smile. They're looking through you. And this barrel looks like he's about ready to eat a pipe gate. Lots of good stuff. What I get frustrated with is the creature is great, but the showman doesn't know the creature. Yeah, that's tough. Okay. Because we have worked very hard at our place. I tell everybody we work with, stock will be here. We'll unload them here, we'll mess them up as good as anybody, and we'll haul them to the show. And our kids will show our stock. Whether it's open or junior doesn't matter. There are creatures, and we are responsible for them. In terms of pet peeves, I want that young person that has been blessed with a great creature to understand how hard and rare it is, to have one and. And feel appreciation for it a little more than sometimes what I see. The only other pet peeve that I have. If you're going to shake my hand, I sure don't mind, but shake it with intention. If it's going to be, hey, I'm mad, and I'm going to throw my hand at you like a limp wrist and huff away. I got three kids that huff to their room all the time. I don't need it in a show ring. Okay, If I give you a chip and you made the sale and you are not appreciative, Trust me, there's 3,000 other kids that would have liked to made the sale. Give me the chip back. I'll give it to somebody else that would appreciate that. You know, we all have a terrible loser. I don't know of a good loser. I don't know if you guys know any good losers. I don't know of one good loser on the planet. But that ability to manage that composure, I think, is. Is A true art of a champion. I struggle with it every time in the heat of battle, and I encourage myself and I reflect. I'm like, I should do better next time. I want our participants to do that, you know, on a regular basis. And. And it's not very often it does happen, but when it does happen, it is memorable. And it's very difficult to get out of my mind, particularly if you've got another animal to show that day. You know, in a county fair, you're showing a lightweight Poland and you're going to go biblical on me, and then you got a good cross coming later. That's poor timing, you know, that's. That. That's poor timing on that standpoint. And I try to tell her, our children, I said, hey, man, you gotta watch yourself because if it'll come back to haunt you. Last. Last thing that I know. And I tell our kids this karma is undefeated, okay? And so I tell you what. Gotta. Gotta live right, gotta be right. Everything will be fine. If you don't, there's some probably gonna be reminded that you're on the wrong side.

Weston Hendricks (52:45)

Yes, sir.

Dr. Mark Hogue (52:46)

Of a situation. So I don't really have any pet peeves. I've had so many good experiences, I can't really remember the bad, to be honest with you.

Weston Hendricks (52:55)

And that's what I think we're all after. If you aspire to be in the ring or aspire to be a judge, it's not to look for the bad, but it's look to.

Dr. Mark Hogue (53:04)

For. It's for.

Weston Hendricks (53:05)

To look at the good.

Dr. Mark Hogue (53:07)

Absolutely. And it starts with show officials. You know, we just talked about Fort Worth, those gentlemen in the green blazers, they are passionate about what they do. Every Texas major, the stock show managers and the committee members that I work with and have been blessed to work with. San Antonio and Hughes, all of them, every one of them, they are passionate about making sure that. That kids get recognized. And that to me is. It starts there. And so we're complimentary of them. We're complimentary of this talk and we get done and, oh, you know, all the bears should have been better. All them fat steers should have been better. You know, should haves. Could haves. Try it. That's why I tell people, hey, you go try to get you a big hairy, fat steer to hold together for a year, it's hard. It's very difficult. I take the guess how many champion bears have left the barn to be a champion and blew a hawk in transit or didn't eat or cut a pad, you know, Or. Or she. They get the cough and prolapse. I mean, they're, you know, goats, staff, boom breaks, you're done. You know, so there's so many things that can happen if we keep the bigger perspective in mind, that, hey, congratulations, you got your project here, and they're in good shape. My compliments to you.

Weston Hendricks (54:29)

Yes, sir.

Augustus Sexton (54:30)

And going off something that you just said, Weston, one thing that I see from an exhibitor, whether that's in the ring or on the outside about judges is, like, you can tell the really good ones, they say very little bad stuff about the livestock. They're very positive, very appreciative of the kids for bringing the project to the ring. And also, they. They make it personal with the kid, make sure the kid has a good experience. And I mean, yes, you need to express what the differences are between the livestock, what sorts them. But staying positive, I mean, if we. I feel like with us judging kids, we get to just saying, oh, this needs to be changed. This isn't perfect here. Like, to nitpick him here, and by the end of it, it sounds like you hate the creature. Just go in there, say, he's good here. I love this about him. Maybe change this, and he'd move up in the class. That's one thing that you can really look at the good judges and the not so good judges, and you can really tell the differences between them well.

Dr. Mark Hogue (55:31)

And I think it's really good because, man, my best bear that I got at the Expo, best cross barrel, you put him third, and you say, he's just got a tick of crest, and I change his ankle. Boom, nail it. I'm third. You know what I mean? That's cool. But. But don't embellish me and then say something that does that's completely off accuracy. When you're going to be critical, it needs to be very, very detailed, the exact region, because about time. As a judge, you don't think people are listening. The ones that matter are listening to every word. And so just real clear, say, hey, that's my pet peeve. And that rear ankle's not right. And guess what I've been doing as a show dad the last six months, trying to manage that rear ankle. You know, there's a guy judge our sheep show this year at Illinois, we had a hampsheet do well, lacrosse. I thought my cross was pretty good. I fed him a little hard. He got a little wide up front. He's a little bit of a low rider, but I still liked a lot of him. We Trimmed his feet every two weeks. He had weird toes. I didn't know that when I bought him. He had weird toes. This judge of deep shavings, like, hey, this sheep just needs to be a little more up and out. We were second in class, should have been second in class. And then at the very end, he goes, you know, I'm gonna be honest with you, he's got weird rear feet. And at that point I'm like, that dude is a hammer, if you can find that. Because we as show dads and we as livestock feeders, we manage problems. We try to buy the good stuff, but guess what we do. We manage issues on every creature that we feed every day. And when the judge can find that in five minutes, when we've been working on that thing for five months, I think that that is. That is a judge I will show to again.

Weston Hendricks (57:22)

Yes, sir. No, and I think what's cool is, like, every project has. Has its flaws or its differences. And to be able to watch and see throughout my year how families handle those situations, whether it's going to a breeder or already knowing from a previous situation and fixing it and making that animal 12 o'clock and essentially hiding it or showmanship, hiding their flaw. But what's most intriguing is I got to judge a prospect show with my mentor. And I asked a lady, a young lady, she had said, I wanted to know what the flaw was about the calf and how she could fix it. She said, I think he's a little tight spined, so I loin him and he looks fine on profile. And I was like, that's phenomenal. I those type of things and situations give me hope.

Dr. Mark Hogue (58:19)

Well, here's keyboys. You think about phenotype equals genotype plus environment. What is really. And it's always been a factor, but today is a big, big deal. Since our children started showing 10 years ago, the level of micromanagement of hair and skin and the little things is staggering. What families are doing today. And this little thing called environment, AKA the show family that bought the animal, they used to be 50, 50. Good genetics equals good environment equals great phenotype. It might be 80, 20. I'm telling you, there's some homes out there that can take a sail, barn goat and get along pretty good. The home, the environment in the home is. Is staggeringly influential today. It really is. And judging a prospect show, you know what's funny sometimes, particularly in pigs, I want to know the pedigree and who's feeding it. And obviously you're not going to Ask that in the ring, but it will help. You know what this thing's going to do. Hey, what's he out of? Where'd you get him? And who's in charge of the feed bucket? Because that will really, you know, a big deal right now is how old do animals have to be? Because the two most important phenotypes right now that determine dollar value and show stock is bone and hair and all four species. Well, how do you get them hairy and big Bone make them older. Well, how old is old? And we're really losing perspective. Like this is almost. What? What is it? December 30th. Tonight, 29th, 29th, I'm farrowing sows. Do you realize I'm the only dodo still that still fair and sounds. Everybody else has done farrowing, you know, to make state fair barrels that are old and burly. I'm a little old school. I still think we can get that first of January bear to state fair in August and have him look right at 255, 260, you know, but genetics have changed and I probably need to change with it. I will tell you. We talk about the genetics of animals always changing. If you as an evaluator and a livestock fan and a fan of the industry, if you don't adapt with the industry, you will be quickly forgotten. This is a continuously fluid industry that you've got to study your lesson and be up to speed on or you will be. You will be behind in a hurry. Yes, sir.

Augustus Sexton (60:48)

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Dr. Mark Hogue (61:37)

Well, for me it does. But here's the problem. Never say age because some of the best feeders and some of the right genetics, they still look cute and young and fresh and baby like and they're three years old. So I'm never Going to say this deer is young. I will say this deer's freshness is impressive. You know, we could look at indicators on all market livestock. As soon as the crest of their net goes in a barrel steer, they're done. You know what I mean? They're too mature. And so we look at those barometers as a feeder, you know, chest and crest in a steer, if those are holding any, we still got. We still got play. As soon as that goes. You know, we thought we could have won our breed. Now we're going to try to win the heavy ramen steer division at Houston. You know, we thought we could win the whole breed. Now we're going to try to win our class. You know, as a feeder, we try to control those genetic expressions as best we can, but when it goes, it goes. It's so hard to tell embarrass right now. Dude, we. We could show bears 11 months of age, and they still look fresh and cool. It's just the genetics we have right now. So, you know, I need to get a little. I need to do a better job of breeding my sows earlier. That's. That's my problem. I'm gonna work on. Or we just go to Kansas City with them. How about that? We just got that. Kansas City bears.

Weston Hendricks (63:01)

There you go.

Dr. Mark Hogue (63:02)

There's always a show.

Weston Hendricks (63:05)

There's always a show.

Dr. Mark Hogue (63:06)

Always a show. God willing, there's always going to be a show.

Weston Hendricks (63:10)

There you go. So you're talking about genetics, you're talking about breeding situations. I want to move away from the judging topic for a minute.

Dr. Mark Hogue (63:20)

Okay.

Weston Hendricks (63:21)

Being alongside your dad, who is a legend a lot of people admire, including yourself and the three here on this platform. Throughout the years, you got to witness the curve in the show stock industry as a whole. What I want to know is your thought process on how the genetics branch even branching off again into, like, sex, semen, and then even to genetic defects. And how all that changed and you watching it, how did that affect our industry in the good and the bad way?

Dr. Mark Hogue (63:51)

Okay. My dad, at 80 years of age, comes down probably twice a week now. He and my mom live two hours away at the family farm. He always starts in the pig barn, and they're going to pig barn. He's like, hey, pin two on the left. I said, yeah, gave him a shot. Hey, pin six on the right. If you don't turn him loose, you're gonna lose. I know. Yep. I turned him loose yesterday. Then he goes to the calves, the heifers. He'll check on heifers hey, conditions good. Charlay needs the Next Wet. He's 80. Okay. When he was judging keanina cattle, they were big and white, just imported from. In the 60s from Italy. He judged the keaninas this year with me at Louisville. All jet black, hairy. You know, here's the key. As a livestock and a fan of the livestock industry, you have to embrace change. You know what I mean? And you might like it. Did I say something bad?

Weston Hendricks (64:44)

No.

Dr. Mark Hogue (64:45)

Okay. You might like it, you might hate it, but, wow, Admire the creature and what we can do with the power of genetics and the power of influence. Okay, now let's go to breeding sex semen. Sex semen's great. We're all making awesome heifers. Where's the next step in the bull? Somebody needs to make a bull. Let's conventionally flush a real good cow to make the next step in terms of a bull genetic defects. Hey, why do club calf breeders or even sheep producers deal with dwarf? Deal with th paj ds? Why do we deal with these things? Because when you get the right carrier status, your calf's going to be worth $50,000 in a commercial setting. None of those have any dollar value assigned to them. So what do we do in the commercial sector? Eliminate all lethal mutations. See, to me, it's all based on what is worth money. The reason that club cap producers, in my opinion, are artists. They're truly artists at managing those genetic defects. And sheep people. Sheep people are really good about it. I mean, hey, if this thing bleeds right, he's a buck. If he bleeds dirty, I get to buy him as a weather. Okay? They're really good at it because there's so much dollar value assigned to it, and that's currently the phenotype that is popular. You know, everybody's like, oh, we're going down the wrong path, dude. Look at a barrel in the 2000s. That was wrong. Look at a bear in the 80s. He was fat, miserable. Hell, he was wrong. It's not wrong. It's just your grandpa telling you you're doing a bad job. Okay, My grandpa probably told me. I'll probably tell my grandkids they're doing a bad job. Or you're. You're driving the industry into the. Into the hoo hoo. No, we're learning from mistakes. I will tell you, the pendulum and livestock kind, from the 50s to the 60s to the 70s to the 80s, I'm one alive. That back then in the 50s. But studying it, the pendulum now barely moves. Okay, hey, we might take Sheep a little more elevated, we might take goats a little more elevated, we might take barrows a little bigger or a little stouter, we might take steers a little sexier neck. But I mean, we're talking. The pendulum just is bouncing back and forth right now. Previous years it was hitting both extremes. And when the pendulum of livestock kind we hit those extremes of tall cattle in the 80s, they were bad. Small cattle in the 50s, they were bad. We have learned from our mistakes. And breeding livestock, in my opinion, is learning from your mistakes and not making them again. It's just like you boys on a judging team. You can like a fat sheep one time and make a mistake, just don't do it three times. You know, we have to learn from our mistakes. And I think as a livestock breeding population, we are learning from those mistakes and we're going to continue to make creatures that are even. I can't wait to see what an animal looks like, a champion animal in 20 years. Because if you look at one 20 years ago, you're like, eh, he's okay. Imagine what they're going to look like in 20 years. I think, I think it's wild.

Augustus Sexton (67:53)

So going from that, that's pretty much the exact question I have. You just talked about how in the past we've hit extremes in both directions. We think that they're both negative. But right now the livestock industries, all four species, is the best they've ever been. Where do you think it's heading? I mean, you talk about 20 years from now.

Dr. Mark Hogue (68:14)

I, I think about it and I do, I do. Because hey man, if you judge, if you raise livestock or judge livestock shows, you got just a little bit of pride and you got a little bit of ego. Okay, well, you want to be the judge that picks the unicorn. You want to be the guy that raises the unicorn. And I know my friends tell me I talk too much about zoo animals, but what are we trying to do? And I know production people will hate when I say this, but we're cutting and pasting. I want to get the giraffe neck with the rhinoceros rib with the elephant fat leg and the in the hippo hiney. We want all of those unique pieces in one creature and then we want them to move like an absolute athlete. Okay? That's, that's what's going to bring the most money. That's going to win the biggest show. It is what it is. It's always been that way. But we are putting even more uniqueness in them now. Something's got to give when we make hogs so big bump and so wide, their joints are going to go. So what do we do? We slow grow. So then they have to be older to weigh 280. You see what I mean? Bone. Bone gets bigger with age. You know, there's going to be some downside to it. Now the. The complete antagonist is going like, oh, we need to age them. We need to all make them five months of eight. That ain't gonna work. They're gonna be little, fat, puffy, frail devils that nobody likes. You want to make a bunch of feeder pigs worth 50 a piece do that? You know, I mean, it's not gonna work. It's not what the audience wants. And so we're not going to go there, you know?

Augustus Sexton (69:54)

And so as a breeder, where does functionality and fertility play into all of that, you know?

Dr. Mark Hogue (70:02)

Yeah, dude, you got you. Okay. I'll tell you this, boys and I, I don't know how much time we have. I'm really enjoying our visit. I tend to ramble too much, and I think the older I get, the more I ramble. Okay, here I go. I got my necktie on. I'm at Oklahoma City judging the crossbred guilts. Okay. I was with the judging team, traveled them down there. They went on to Houston. I judged 1100 crossbred guilts at Oye probably six, six, eight years ago. That winter we had miserable time. Farrell in south. So what did I do? I went into that Oklahoma City crossbred guilt show, and I tried to pick functional, believable guilts that I could actually let my wife try to Pharaoh. When I was with the judging teeth, I left and, oh, my God, Kennedy. All my buddies, they're like, that was the worst job we've ever seen you do. Nobody cares. They don't. If I could give any advice, going to somebody to judge cross guilt. No, I. E. Whack them out. Wacky cells, man. Wacky cells. I know that in our situation, functionality and fertility and pigs is important. Here's what we don't have in the pig barn. We don't have a reset. You and the cattle, you and the sheep, you and the goat bones have recipes. So we could take this unique creature that probably has one ovary that works. I don't know if the rest of her works. Who knows? But she is a wacky, wacky piece. We make those embryos, we put them in something functional. I'm going to be honest with you. You want to study something really not productive? A borgo nanny.

Weston Hendricks (71:51)

Not productive.

Dr. Mark Hogue (71:52)

Not set Any land speed records. Okay. Yep. Not setting. Hey, but a spany, dude, a spaniel. Spit out a baby rhinoceros and get up and lick it clean and just think it's awesome.

Weston Hendricks (72:03)

Okay, that's crazy.

Dr. Mark Hogue (72:06)

We don't have that in the pig barn. Okay. And it's very, very difficult because. Here we go. What's going to be the best? They got to be double bread, jigged up to get the. To get the wildness that we're wanting in the ring as a show judge, and you can blame us as show judges, but I have a very short attention span, So I want unique, I want cool, I want memorable. Just my nature. What's it take to do that? You got to be double bred, jigged up on both sides to get to those deals. And it's. It's what? When Carter started showing heifers, we'd go to boards, look at heifers. Any heifer that had big hair, I walked by, never looked at, guess what? The last four years at Illinois State Fair. Then the last four years, I go to works, I look at the hairy heifers. Yeah. Because they want full winter hair in August on heifers. I think that's not something that I'm in on at all. But I want my kid to win. Don't you know? That's where parents. That's where. That's where sometimes the challenges lie. As a breeder and what you believe in, an educator, what you believe in. But bottom line, my sheep boys I work with, they used to tell me, hey, this guy's gonna like this sheep, okay? And I said, the problem is I don't. And I'm gonna feed it. I'm gonna feed these animals for 120 days. The judge is going to look at him for 10 minutes. So I want to make sure I like them, and then hopefully the judge will like them well enough. When it's that time. Sometimes it works. Sometimes I get third, go back to the pin and think, well, that didn't work. I know one thing you cannot do. You cannot take an animal that you believe in holistically to a judge that you know doesn't like the same type and make them use it. That ain't gonna happen. You can be proud of your animal, but you're probably gonna be third. So that's what you got to make as a decision as a. As a feeder, you know?

Weston Hendricks (74:09)

Yes.

Dr. Mark Hogue (74:09)

You got to decide what you want to put on feet.

Weston Hendricks (74:12)

Personal. Personal preference as a parent or feeder can. Can hurt sometimes when it comes to choosing stock I noticed that.

Dr. Mark Hogue (74:20)

It really doesn't. But. But sometimes I think the opposite. That we try so hard to please leads to judge that we. We actually miss the mark.

Weston Hendricks (74:27)

Yeah, that too, yes.

Dr. Mark Hogue (74:29)

With stuff that you like, that you believe in, and you want to stand by and stand by it proud, let the chips fall where they may, you know, I think that's important. It'd be crazy if you ask people, and I don't even want to know. Please don't ask them, well, what. What type does he like? You know, because I really want to be one of those that, hey, if they're loose or tied up, if they're hairy or slick, they're built good. I have to have symmetry. I have to have lines and balance in livestock or they are not attractive to me. And that. That is hopefully something of all the little idiosyncrasies that I go off on tangents. I hope that is a fundamental core that people that have shown to me before would agree that he does like a set of lines in him that have to match.

Weston Hendricks (75:24)

And something that I learned a long time ago that I even use today in the reasons room is the symmetry, the relaxed angles, the squareness of build that you talk about is the foundation for everything else to be built.

Dr. Mark Hogue (75:38)

It has a unique way. It has to be. But we were at a workout, a pig workout, and this guy, I don't know if I'm supposed to name drop or anything, but anyway, we were in Oklahoma on the way right off, 44, this real sharp pig. Guy's like, oh, you've been here twice to work out. He goes, you know what's amazing about you? You never talk about weights and measurements. You never talk about, this one is the stout, you know, most muscle, or the deepest bodied. You talk about the kind of creature that each one of them are. And that kind needs to be in the top pair. This kind needs to be in the bottom pair. Sometimes I get a little frustrated with judging contests that we, well, that's the biggest muscle, and it's a judging contest. So that's. We're going to start with it. And I'm thinking thing would never start in a show. So all of a sudden we're teaching kids to. To tie into weights and measures of debt. Who's the deepest bodied and who's the biggest butted. And then when your show, you're not going to do that. So all of a sudden were sending mixed messages to our young judges in college that, hey, then you get a microphone and you got 500. What are you going to do my age, I get, I can get a little tough. I get a little suspect on some of that.

Weston Hendricks (76:57)

Yes, sir.

Dr. Mark Hogue (76:58)

If we teach our young kids to just but cut market on glasses and then you're going to go to a jackpot show that I'm showing at but class two, I'm going to be like, hey, we're packing up, man. This is not going to be good. You know what I mean?

Weston Hendricks (77:12)

Yes, sir.

Dr. Mark Hogue (77:12)

And I want to make sure that, that we are teaching our students to be future livestock judges and future livestock breeders. That's big to me.

Weston Hendricks (77:21)

Me, I completely agree. And I've noticed just surrounding myself around, I guess my college environment, that, that, that, that's starting to become a big problem priority to a lot of people because I think it's been noticed.

Dr. Mark Hogue (77:40)

Here's the problem. It's hard to coach. It's way easier to coach a bunch of kids, say, hey, biggest butt, the smallest butt. Let's rock and roll.

Weston Hendricks (77:49)

Right? Feed lots in your style.

Dr. Mark Hogue (77:51)

That's easy. The other way, it's difficult because it's a process. Judging and evaluating livestock is an art. It's not a programmatic step that you do. You try to make it programmatic. But about time. You think you got your logarithms figured out. There's going to be something that'll change.

Weston Hendricks (78:09)

Yes, sir. So with all this said, we're going to try to kind of wrap up here.

Dr. Mark Hogue (78:15)

Okay. Sorry. No, no, no, don't apologize about our social media guy. I can't see him. I think, I think he might have taken a tiger snooze.

Weston Hendricks (78:24)

He's here. He's here. His, like his video deal is messing up, so he just cut it off. It's all good. He's still here. So we're not close done yet. We're not close to done.

Dr. Mark Hogue (78:34)

Oh, okay. We're. We're going it. This is.

Weston Hendricks (78:37)

I. I'm loving this. We can go for another two hours for all I care.

Dr. Mark Hogue (78:41)

I'm afraid I wear off on people pretty.

Weston Hendricks (78:45)

All right. So where I'm going to go with this is more so inspiration, motivation and such. So my first question to you is, how did you gain your knowledge throughout the industry biggest mentor and how they helped you get to your mindset of where you are today? But mostly, what advice can you give to the people when looking for a mentor?

Dr. Mark Hogue (79:13)

What. Okay, you're going to restate the first part of the question because it got some real good days. Perfect mind.

Weston Hendricks (79:22)

Okay, where.

Dr. Mark Hogue (79:23)

Where do I, where do I look for inspiration or. Or Livestock. Soak it up like a sponge. The best thing about my job is on any given day, I'd hate to guess the number of livestock that are shown to me by students on a phone. What do you think of this? What do you think of this? What do you think of this? I never say they're terrible. I say, let's talk pedigree. How's it going to feed? Where is it going to fit? You know, I love the. The quest. I. If somebody says, we don't have time to go look at a hurt bull. Yes. Yeah, we're going to make time. I'd rather go look at a breeding piece that's going to play a major part in somebody's breeding program than go give another set of reasons. Okay. Probably the most impactful summer I ever had, other than showing livestock, was I was an NSR summer intern before I went to Iowa State. And I traveled around with Gary Childs and Ralph Doak, and I saw some of the nation's best sourds I've ever seen. In fact, I was on the judging team. This is going to make me sound old, but I don't care. I am old. Older, but I still feel young. 1994, we're in Lake City, Arkansas. I was with the judging team, University of Illinois. We're going to a contest all east or some contest out there. I was at this place and I had never seen Yorkshire's like this. I was blown away. There's a board class. I don't know. There's probably 20 teams. You all been in them big workouts. 20 teams stand around. And my coach came up to me and he goes, you gotta stop breeding hogs and just place them, all right? You gotta stop breeding hogs. Now, keep in mind, prior to that, I'd won every contest. I'd been in a senior college, but whatever, I'm listening. And I love my coach because you gotta stop breeding dogs. I'm like, okay, so all these kids are talking, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4. Why? You know, the host is like, why do you like them? 1, 2, 3, 4. One time. 1, 2, 3, 4. Well, anyway, Steve Cobb's like, did anybody place it different? Well, I had him place 4, 3, 2, 1. So obviously I've always struggled with keeping my mouth shut. Raised my hand and I said. I went, 4, 3, 2, 1. He goes. He goes. So he said, what did you see? So I talked to boards. He goes, what's your name? And I told him, he goes, where are you from? I said, illinois, because what's Your name. And I said again? And he goes, I don't know if anybody's really listening to what this guy said, but you should have, because it was insane. That bore, the four bore I started with, turned into one of Steve Cobb's best generating herd bores. Well, all the judging teams left, and Steve Cobb comes up to me, goes, hey, you want to go look at sows? Like, yeah, obviously I'd never seen. I didn't even know this guy existed. It was, like, mind blowing how good these styles work. My judging team waited in the van for 45 minutes, and I never. My coach was never so mad at me in my entire year of coaching, being on a team. I said, well, Steve, y'all should have been with me, because I just saw stuff that would blow your mind. Well, from that year of competition, I went to Daryl Anderson at the nsr and I said, please, I need a job. I'll work for free. I want to be an intern. He goes, what are you going to do? I said, well, to make money, I'll put together a judging video, but I want to be a field staff intern. That summer, I saw some of the coolest sows. Different places, different means of production. And in that year, in that summer, I learned there's a lot of different ways to get to a positive result. And that opened my mind to say, hey, don't go to a guy's place and say they're all terrible because there might be a cow on the other side of that round bale feeder. That might be your next step. You just don't know it. You think of some of the influential breeders that you two know and have worked with, they think the same way. Okay? That is hugely, hugely important. So where's my passion and drive? It's from never saying, terrible, terrible, terrible. Let's go see. Let's go figure out second part of that question. Mentor, obviously, my family, you know, my dad, my grandpa, my grandpa hog was a great Durock breeder, but he passed when I was six. So I knew him, but I didn't really know him. My grandpa Brewer is the one that probably took me to every show that I ever went to. I would say non, non family member was probably my high school ag teacher, Mr. Al Horn. I judge cross crops, soils, parliamentary procedure. I'm like, Mr. El, I don't know anything about this. He goes, oh, I got your back. This is what you got to do that. He basically, in four years, made me a section president, you know, created this person that other than livestock, I knew nothing Else, but he opened my doors. I even took welding for two years. Never actually welded two pieces of metal that stuck together, but I tried, you know, so that guy taught. Taught me that you can always do things that you're not in your comfort zone. Try to push yourself outside your comfort zone. I think he was really, really good there. You know, obviously my judging coach, you know, coaches were important. Lee Denzer was at Blackhawk. Steve Myers was at University of Illinois. He allowed me latitude, and I. I was one of those collegiate kids that needed latitude, you know, to let me talk the way I talk, because it wasn't like everybody else. And so that was critically important. So I think when you search up for a mentor, I will tell you, the people that I have exposed my children to as livestock influencers have been huge, huge mentors. Cooper Newcomb and Ty Allen on the sheepfront for us, been absolutely tremendous. Not, not to bring us good sheep, but to stop by to teach us to. To show us how to show sheep, you know, to our children. Those folks have been huge. The entire Board crew clan. You know, I coached Jared Board, Jake Board went to Ohio State, Clayton Boyd, you know those guys. I coached two of them. But I've worked with those guys. You know, we consider them family friends. You know, we sent our kids with like Jake Bloomberg to shows on the goat front. You know, Cooper Bounds moved to town, helped coach. And I think the influence that he's had on our family in a positive nature. You know, I hope that as we talk about these guys, Laramie Jackson on the pigs, Caleb Bones now helping that with coach the team and working with our family. A lot of college students have. Have influenced our children that. That they're mentors. We have tried to surround our children with mentor types of people that. That no good stock that have drive, that have passion and are good human beings to be around that my wife and I feel comfortable that our children are with. And so I think mentors need to be not just, hey, are they winning? But how do they win that that's important. You know, what do you learn when you're with them? I think those kinds of things are staggeringly important to me. You know, the goats, the sheep, the cattle. We could not show four species without those people. In fact, we wouldn't. Because part of the reason we show those species is because we get to spend time and learn from the people we get to learn from. And there's a bunch of them out there. You know, takes two things to hold my interest, talent and loyalty. And I like if You've got talent, you've got my interest. If you are a person that says you do what you say you're going to do, I'm all in. I, I comfortable with those types of, of people.

Augustus Sexton (87:29)

Says second to last question. Do you have a favorite quote or Bible verse that you like to go by?

Dr. Mark Hogue (87:37)

You know, I don't. We, I do, I do. I, I try to give them one of our first days of judging practice. Everybody's got to get a quote that, that, that truly defines your motivation. And I think I'm motivated in different ways on different days. And so I'm big on motivational quotes. I get it on my Snapchat and I get fired up. Some of them are very sincere and probably more spiritual. Some of them probably drop F bombs and say, let's rock and roll. Get your blank out of bed and get rolling. I'm big in music. You know, my genre and my playlist on Pandora radio can go anywhere from Hair Band to Snoop to Red Dirt music to little Lil Wayne. I mean, who knows what I'm going to be into on that particular day. But I will tell you, I want to know because what motivates me in a quote may not resonate with you, but I do think it's important for everybody to have those go to's to get them rolling, in my opinion. Oh, I can't see. Hold on. What's it say? Read it to me.

Augustus Sexton (88:52)

It says it's a, one of the screensavers I have on my phone.

Dr. Mark Hogue (88:56)

It says, what is it?

Augustus Sexton (88:57)

Are you capable of more?

Dr. Mark Hogue (88:59)

Amen. Amen. My mind probably at my age and the students I work with is really more so treat. And I know it's cliche, but I really want our students to treat people like they want to be treated. And I think if you do that, if you have a van culture that treats people that way, I think it's critically important to do that. Maximizing talent, that is my job. Whether I'm a parent of three or I'm in a judging van or I'm in a classroom. My job is to maximize your talent. Whatever your bubble is, I want you to hit that, that peak. And so I probably spend more time trying to get to the root of the person. You know, motivating my oldest son and motivating my middle son, totally different approaches. Okay. Both are excellent human beings, both are wonderful people, but they, but they work in different ways. Same with your judging team. Same with a classroom setting. We've got to maximize our talent and I think that's important. We try to do that every day. I've got a lot of quotes. I. Yeah, I'll probably leave some of that. I'm motivated in a lot of different ways. Music is probably my number one motivation in a day that I think about and gets me pumping. I'll sing songs in the ring. I'll whistle in the elevator. I'm a big music fan.

Weston Hendricks (90:28)

That's a question I. I gotta ask. Do you love music while a stock show's going on, judging a show.

Dr. Mark Hogue (90:35)

Oh, 100. 100. Because if it's not playing, I'm singing it. So, you know, and I think here's the problem. I'm very patternistic. When I get ready for a show, there's a routine that I go through. And my wife was with me last year at Fort Worth, and when we dated and we're younger married, she would go with me a lot. She's been to Houston with me, and it'd been a while since she'd been with me on a show. And I was like, man, I got to get my playlist rolling because I was showering, getting ready, and it is a sequence. And she's like, hey, do whatever you need to do. I know. I don't want to mess up your mojo. And I said, okay. And so I'm big on music. I'm big judges. We have to provide a level of entertainment. This. We are in the entertainment business. If we do not entertain the families and their children, there are so many other things that they can do to find entertainment. I don't have to do cartwheels. Am I kind of cool with the smoke in the mirrors and the fireworks and some of that? Have you boys seen Hawaii?

Weston Hendricks (91:44)

I've seen pictures. Never witnessed it in reality.

Dr. Mark Hogue (91:48)

Okay, well, I've. I've had the privilege to sit on that coliseum floor, and if you don't want to run through a brick wall when they get done introducing everybody, you're in a coma. Okay? You. Your pulse is non existent. Something is wrong because you are on, like, pins and needles. The energy, the atmosphere, being on the rodeo floor, selecting a champion steer. Come on, man. It doesn't get any better. I don't know. I'm sure it does somewhere, but not my wheelhouse, you know, not my wheelhouse. And I think that's cool. And so, you know, when we're sincere and we're positive and we provide a level of entertainment, and I tell our students when we're giving reasons, I said, hey, that's a nice set. Imagine having to give talk 40 classes in a day. The way you delivered that set of reasons, would you still have my attention at class number 30? Probably not. Go redo it. You see what I mean? And so, you know, I think, yeah, I think I love music. I love upbeat nature. We don't need to make it into a circus, and I don't think anybody has. But I think that positive juju is. I'm going back to do the revival. It's their five year anniversary and they asked me back. I was dancing like I was at a wedding reception when I was 25. The first revival. It was awesome. I mean, the music. And like this year, the DJ at the Hereford Junior national, he was on point. I mean, he was killing it, you know. And so I give credit where credit's due. I said, hey, man, you are. You are slaying the music. It is perfect. So, yeah, I think we all have fun. There is a very serious element to what we do, but we need to have fun. I tell people all the time, if I am not having fun, I'll be the first one out the door.

Weston Hendricks (93:49)

Yes, sir.

Dr. Mark Hogue (93:50)

Yep.

Weston Hendricks (93:51)

So with all this excitement, unfortunately, it has to come to an end with this last question. We've asked this question throughout all three seasons. I don't think it's gonna leave. I don't want it to leave because I love everyone's perspective on it and how it shapes or performs on how they live. So. So, Mark, what empowers you as a person, caretaker, operator, or even a customer to be better than who you were before?

Dr. Mark Hogue (94:21)

What empowers me to be that? You know, that's a. That's a good question. Because I'll go back to our sermon that we had today. Our church is. It's got 32 locations that we're part of, and we're at record numbers. Were at record. New baptism. Everything. Everything was a record. Everything was a record. Well, what empowers us is that we're asked to do more. If we are blessed with something, then we are expected to do more, you know? And so what empowers me to do it? I want to make sure my. My wife is proud of me. I want to make sure that my three children are proud of me. And I think. I think we do it or I do it for family. I raise livestock as a family. I treat our program and students as family. And I think if they know that I have their back and their best interest, I hope their performance is better. And I want to be one of those that is dependable and reliable to say hey, I've got Hogue in my corner. It's going to be okay, you know, and so it's my job. I've been. I've been blessed. So in my opinion, I feel like I owe it to people to share my interest, share my passion with them because. Because I feel fortunate.

Weston Hendricks (95:48)

I could not be more grateful for you taking your time and coming on our platform and giving an hour and a half of. Of your knowledge.

Dr. Mark Hogue (95:56)

It.

Weston Hendricks (95:57)

It's. It's amazing. The. The one thing I can say, you did not beat Brandon Horn. His was longer by.

Dr. Mark Hogue (96:05)

By.

Weston Hendricks (96:05)

As of right now, I believe it's two or three minutes. I think his was a minute 36. We're at a minute 34.

Dr. Mark Hogue (96:11)

Ah, that guy likes to talk, though. He does. Like, he was probably selling you guys some club cabs, wasn't he? He was, yeah.

Weston Hendricks (96:17)

He most definitely was.

Dr. Mark Hogue (96:18)

He's a good. Yeah, he's good at that.

Weston Hendricks (96:20)

One thing I'll say is we finish the episode off of the scripture every time. Once we get done with that, we'll conclude the episode end of season three.

Dr. Mark Hogue (96:29)

Sounds good. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for having me. It was my pleasure.

Augustus Sexton (96:34)

All right. This episode scripture is 1st Peter 5 and 6. It says, humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.

Weston Hendricks (96:48)

And I think that resentment resonates with this episode in a lot of ways.

Dr. Mark Hogue (96:53)

100.

Weston Hendricks (96:54)

It could not have fit better, in my opinion. Lastly, I will just say it one more time. Mr. Hogue, it's been an honor. I appreciate you and everything you do for this industry. I appreciate the inspiration you've given to all three of us that are on this platform listening. We wish you the best and condolences and blessings to you and your family and the careers going forward. And for everyone that's listening, this would not be possible without y'all. We strive for excellence, and we try to do our very best to bring you the best. And I believe with all my heart that we've. We've done that. I'm kind of losing words because I'm getting emotional here for a minute. Season three has been phenomenal. I could. I couldn't have asked for a better season, but I expect more for next season, and I can't wait to see where it goes. So with that said, Mr. Hogue, thank you for your time, boys. I'm proud of y'all. This is empowerment. This is what it's all about. Thank you all for tuning in. We'll see y'all next time. Ranch House Designs is America's rural marketing hub. They're a proud sponsor of Empower Use new and improved website. We couldn't be more grateful for their efforts and help helping us build a brand. But with that said, they can do the same for you, creating and backing some of the biggest brands and websites in the industry. Trust the process and Visit them at ranchhousedesigns.com.

Quinn Hartley (98:24)

Make sure to follow us on Facebook and Instagram @empowerupod for episode sneak peeks and merchandise updates.

Augustus Sexton (98:34)

But also go take a look at our new website, empowerupod.com where you'll find our team's story, sponsor updates and much more. Once again, we just want to thank you all for tuning in and please follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcast and leave a five star rating. If you like what you hear, have a blessed day.