B (2:58)

So South Africa's quite interesting in a lot of ways. It mirrors the US industry pretty well. I'd say a lot of the breeds are the same. It's also a feedlot based industry. It's got pretty temperate climate in some places, it gets quite tropical in other places. Some high altitude, semi desert in others. So I'd say if you put Texas and New Mexico together, you've got a pretty good reflection of, of the, the climate in, in South Africa. The show side of it. There are a lot of cattle shows in South Africa that they're definitely more, they're probably closer to the industry in terms of type expectations of what cattle need to do. So you don't have show cattle per se, you just have cattle shows that registered cattle go to, if that makes sense. The, the structure of the breed associations would be, would be very similar. I'd say one of the big differences would be herd size. Most of the cattle herds in South Africa are pretty big. You know, they're not a lot of what we find like especially in the eastern parts of the U.S. you know, these 20 to 30 cow herds, you don't get too much of that. So the commercial focus is obviously a lot stronger throughout the industry and the challenges are similar and different. You know, some of our big challenges would have been ticks, which you can get in to a certain degree down in, in the Rio Grande Valley and Florida we had political issues that we had to deal with similar but different to here. I think the biggest downside to, to breeding cattle in South Africa was a lack of an export market because there's so much wildlife in South Africa. You know, the health status of the country is totally different. So with regards to things like tuberculosis, foot and mouth diseases like lumpy skin disease, the African countries are always going to be disadvantaged because of the wildlife populations. So getting good genetics out of the country is so difficult. And that's what appealed to me about the US is the ability to do international trade here because of the health status of the, of the country from a livestock point of view. So that that was a big difference. And then the other thing about the US which really appealed to me and still does, is just opportunity, the ability for upward mobility. There's a can do attitude that I've never seen anywhere else in the world in all my travels. And just this intense passion to do whatever you do really, really well is something that definitely sets the us apart. And, I mean, there's good and bad to that we can get into later. But that's what drew me into industry. And settling where I am, just west of Fort Worth, Texas, was it became a logical place to settle. And I'm really grateful that that is where I ended up.

A (5:54)

Well, before we continue, this is a question that I had, and you kind of pointed it out. Wildlife is obviously a whole lot more relevant there in South Africa. In your area, what wildlife did you encounter while growing up there? I'd be curious to know, kind of what were the species that were there in South Africa in your area?

B (6:14)

So just on the property, we would have a lot of the plains game, like hartebeest, wildebeest, kudu, springbuck, blessbuck, reed buck. And then as far as predators were concerned, jackal, which is similar to a coyote lynx, which would be, I guess, somewhere between a bobcat and a mountain lion. And then we had leopard, but further north where we ran cattle, up where it was a little more tropical, and in the high desert, hyena became quite a big issue. And then we would have a lot of baboons and vervet monkeys. The wildlife was pretty impressive. And you work with it, you don't work against it, because professional hunting is a big business in South Africa, and conserving and preserving species became a valuable proposition. So I guess when I was really young, I remember guys coming out and shooting a few hundred animals a night for venison. But that stopped as soon as professional hunting got big. And then everyone was really preserving it so that the trophy hunters could come out and pay money for it. And that increased the game numbers of South Africa substantially. Game is probably stronger now than ever before just because people are preserving it for the professional hunters. And a lot of those hunters come from the US What I'd like to.

A (7:37)

Know is after you were done being raised there in South Africa and trans over here into the United States of America, where did you end up going to college? And what did the opportunities look like there at college?

B (7:51)

Okay, so I actually went to college in South Africa. Okay. I graduated at St. Andrews College and then went to Rhodes University. And I did a good goodness, 11. About 11 years on the family farm before I moved over here. So we had annual bull sales and I was managing all those properties for my family and our partner in the business. Yeah. So my college experience, and that's probably why I sound a lot different to a lot of other judges on the mic, is because my college experience was completely different. You know, the focus was maybe a little bit different and. And the way we were trained to judge was different as well. So that's probably why I get a few more black eyes and blood noses than most judges do as well.

A (8:38)

So what did you end up getting your degree and what did you pursue in. In college and then how did you utilize that degree there at the ranch in South Africa?

B (8:46)

So, ironically, my degree has absolutely nothing to do with livestock production at all. And parts of me are, sorry I didn't go fully for an animal science degree, but then the other part of me is quite grateful because it's allowed me to really look at the industry from the outside. And, you know, I've had access to all the same literature. And growing up, my grandfather and father were pretty good mentors in terms of getting me into the business. I graduated with TV journalism and isitvosa, which is a local tribal language. And naturally, all my projects were done on bull sales and livestock operations and all that. But I'm not classically trained in. In animal science. I mean, I've, you know, grown up with all the same literature and, and experience. But I. Part of me is grateful that, that I. I came at it from, from the outside. And the other part of me, I feel like I might have missed out on some fun years had I done gone the animal science route. I almost went to Michigan State to do a post grad, and then the business was getting big enough over there that I needed to get back onto the farm. I remember when I joined transover and I needed to speak at the summit the second year I was there, and they wanted my resume. And part of it was the question you've just asked, you know, what did you study? And when I told them, they were like, how did you get this job? So I said, I don't know. You interviewed me for 15 hours. So, yeah, they were as surprised as everyone else is when they find out what I actually went to school.

A (10:20)

That's really neat. So I do a little Facebook stalking. So I was going through your Facebook, I'd seen that you'd made a post and it was during the National Western show, and you're reminiscing over the fact that you had just gotten the United States and during that show, that's kind of your start to being here in America. And that led to you realizing that you needed to be here. So explain to me how you got that opportunity to come to the National Western and the events that happened in that time to make you want to come here and such.

B (10:55)

So I've been following the National Western since I was a kid, just going through old magazines and the Internet was different back then, but there was just. There were reams and reams of past winners, carload winners and pen winners and on the Hill winners. And I used to work through these sometimes at university. I'd be in the, you know, we had computer rooms because everyone had to go to the room to be on a computer, like these PCs. And I remember getting there at like 8 at night and it'd be 4 in the morning and I'm still looking through all these old National Western winners. So it was always something in my head that I really was going to do and I put some money together to come over in. That was early 2007. And then after that I just would come every year because I felt that what I got out of that and the contacts and what I was learning was so valuable to what I was doing back home that it really changed our business at home from a marketing standpoint, from an animal preparation standpoint. Yeah, just totally, totally opened my eyes. And it was a. I mean, I was a little naive when I came over. You know, I didn't really know what to expect in terms of transport or accommodation or any of that, but, goodness, it worked itself out in a few days.

A (12:13)

And so what happened that first time that you arrived at National Western? Walk me through that story. The people that you met and what made you realize this is where you needed to be.

B (12:24)

So, yeah, in that post, I mean, I don't want to sound redundant because you've read it. Anyone else who hasn't? I went through Atlanta and then caught the connection to Denver, which gets in pretty late in the afternoon, and nothing's changed since then. I still forget to book accommodation when I go places. And I got there and I realized I didn't actually have a hotel to give the taxi driver to take me to. So I asked the information desk if there's anywhere that he'd recommend I stay. And he must have looked at me and thought, well, this guy looks like he'd fit in well, you know, in this type of accommodation. So he called his friend up who ran this place called The Melbourne Inn. And, well, I was grateful I had a place to go. And the taxi took me there. And honestly, it was just pretty basic. It's a big red brick building. Guy took me into my bedroom, which was just a bed and, like, a set of drawers and nothing else in it. A door and a security gate took me down the hallway to where the showers and the restrooms were. Yeah, they said good night. And that was me. And I thought, well, okay, this is how it is. It was only $29 a night. So I was quite happy with that in terms of. From a budget standpoint. And in the morning, when I told him what I was there for and I needed to get to the stock show, he sent me. It was really cold. You know, Denver, the National Western is always amazing. Like, if you go there for long enough, you will wear a T shirt and you will literally freeze to death. Like, it's amazing how you get both. Both sets of weather every time. And that morning was just brutal. And he said, okay, walk four blocks. Take $2. Get this bus. It stops near enough. When you see the coliseum, walk in that direction. And anyway, so I did that, and I guess I walked into the closest gate. Took me down into the yards. And it was just mind blowing. I mean, just seeing all those cattle and all the, you know, all the ranches banners up and the activity. And I was like, yeah, this is it. I don't actually need to see any more. This is. This is where I'm going to come to, and this is where I'm going to end up. And there's a. There was a little international room back then, which was really just, you know, some lukewarm coffee and a badge. And they had a PC. And I remember getting on that PC at lunch and sending my parents a message. And I remember the words I used. I said, I found my place in the world. This is where I'm moving to. And I think they were just relieved that I'd actually made it to America and that I was safe. But from there, I just. I combed the yards. And the first two herds I ran into and have good relationships with both them to this day, was top Herefords up in North Dakota. And they had. They had three bulls in the pen show and two herd bulls on display. And then Wiese and Sons from Iowa, and both of those families just really became like my American families. And I liked the type of cattle they had and ended up using genetics from both those herds over the next few years quite a lot. In my South African cattle And I guess when I got to know them well and we were going to dinner and they realized where I was going back to to stay, the one night they took me back there, this was, I think after three or four nights, they said, I said, pj, this is a shelter. And I was like, okay, so are you staying somewhere better? And they say, yeah, that's a little bit better where we staying? And fortunately, I'd missed my curfew anyway, so I had to move to a real hotel because there's a 10pm curfew in those shelters. And I guess from then until now, I've been staying in more humane accommodation. But yeah, that first day at the stock show, I, I've never lost that wonder and awe for. Especially like I love what happens in the Hill and the halter show now in, in that cobank arena. And. But that, that atmosphere in the yards, it does give you a sense of awe. You know, it's just there's so much energy and so much excellence and so much professionalism and so much heritage that for me, that was just totally unmatched.

A (16:45)

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. From the time that you moved to the U.S. what was that transition like? Where did you end up? Why'd you pick where you ended up in the United States and then we can go from there?

B (16:57)

So I had a short list and it was either going to be Denver, Colorado, for obvious reasons and. Or Kansas City because it's, it's quite a seed stock hub, or Fort Worth, Texas. And Fort Worth became a. I'd say it was the right option. And I'm so grateful that, that I chose this area for several reasons. The one reason is it's an awesome community. The second reason is that it's really where the boss tourists and the bos indicus cattle kind of meet. And it allowed me to really get involved in the bos indica side of things as well. Because back in South Africa, we worked in, you know, we had Hereford Angus and Red Angus and we had Brahman and what you call Brayford up here. So I needed to stay in both those worlds. And Fort Worth allows you to do that. The other thing is it's where farmers and ranchers meet. You know, you take. I've. It's pretty much the line where ball caps turn into cowboy hats, so you could, you could work both those cultures as well. And then I, I knew I was going to use the US As a base and then grow an international portfolio. That. That was my vision and dfw, I mean, I don't even know if, if you know this. A lot of people in North Texas don't know this, but DFW airport's the third busiest airport in the world. So it's just worked out so well that I can travel from there and it gets you pretty much anywhere, you know. So probably again, a little lucky, bit of a fluke that I picked it. But I'm, I'm grateful that that is where, where we ended up.

A (18:26)

Well, looking back now today to when you moved, is there anything you would have done differently?

B (18:32)

Let's say that, yes. I think the first thing is, you know, we had a pretty solid base of knowledge and philosophy on what livestock needed to be and what profitable livestock production actually looked like. And it's not better or worse, it's just different. And I probably should have employed it from the start instead of when I got here. I thought, okay, I'm going to learn the way that, that these guys evaluate livestock and the way they think about livestock and what kind of livestock they're looking for. And it probably set me back a bit trying to be something that I wasn't. And I think what really shifted the gears in the right direction was when I went back to what I actually kn. And that was a more southern African philosophy, which. Yeah. Which I'll probably stick closer to to this day. It's just I've probably learned to package it better. You know, I don't think anyone packages a product better than the US But I feel like I should have jumped in from the start with what I already knew instead of trying to relearn what is essentially the same industry.

A (19:37)

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For more information about Reed Vessel Ranches, including their private treaty, cattle sires, donors and upcoming sales, visit their website@reedveselranches.com from this point forward I'd like to know, you know, how did you end up with the job at transova? And I'm sure that your background helped with you being internationally renowned for the business, but how did you utilize that to grow that type of business for transova and just everything from starting the job to now. Like I want to know what did you utilize back home for your own self there at the job and how have you helped grow transova? What has transova done for you and everything like that?

B (22:48)

So look, I'll start off by saying transover, the first time I was approached about working at transover, it was I was doing a lot of exporting of live cattle semen and embryos around the world and there was a company out of Uruguay that was wanting transover to put up a lab there and they contacted me and they said look, we really, you need to set this up for us. And I, I mean I was a little naive towards what Trans over was at that stage because all I knew of Trans over was a lab in what was then Centerville, Texas. It's moved to Brian now and I, I said, okay, I'll, I'll get you in touch with these guys. And so I called Kerry Crowe and we started chatting and I said, these guys want a lab in Uruguay. And we must have been on the phone for, I don't know, 45 minutes to an hour. And he said, you know what, we, we needing a international business manager. Are you not prepared to, you know, visit with us and maybe we can work something out? And I was like, no, like I quite enjoy being a lone wolf and I like doing my own thing. And he said, well, just, just visit with, with enough people at transurb and let's see, maybe we can work something out. That was probably the best conversation looking back that I, I ever had. Because what I've learned at Trans over, the opportunities transover has given me, the exposure to parts of the industry that I was totally unaware of, you know, dairy cloning, gene editing, all the stuff that I was totally unaware of and the education that came with that. And then also, like, I'm an administration nightmare, like I'm so bad at basic admin. And then I realized, well, transoba's got people for that, you know, and like the paperwork of that goes along with exporting and Trans Over's got people for that. Eventually it, it became such a cool fit because I could do what I do well, what I enjoy doing. And, and there were people at Trans over to, to do the rest. So it, I really came to me by accident. I mean, I wasn't looking for anything. And just by one of my Uruguayan clients needing a lab there, that conversation led to one thing, led to another, and then the next thing I knew, I was in Denver and meeting with the founder and the CEO at that stage, Dr. David Faber. We watched the whole bullshow together and then he said I needed to come up to Sioux Center, Iowa. Goodness, it was 15 hours, like two hour conversation after the next. And I mean, as exhausting as it was over those few days, I just realized that, yeah, this is, this is a family I can definitely be a part of. And I really appreciate how they've let me be myself. And the, the business that I've brought to them has maybe been non traditional in some ways. For the most part. I think it's been the relationships. You know, partners in labs in different countries, new satellites in different places, different people to work within the system and then key clients, key volume clients that, that I brought with me from the business I've been doing. Yeah, it's been unexpected because I'm really not A corporate animal. But the way that, that they've allowed me to work in their system has been amazing. And like I said, the learning, you know, of whether it's IVF or ET cloning, gene editing, getting exposed to the dairy side of things, yeah, it's. It's been incredible.

A (26:13)

What was, like, one of the first times that you were introduced to being a judge? What was that first time that you were in the ring on the mic like? And then how did that lead to getting several opportunities at these big national shows? And what's that experience been like for you?

B (26:29)

So the very first time I had any exposure to judging in any form, I was working in Scotland my year out of high school on a Hereford and Angus operation and I was doing their showcase and their big show in Edinburgh is called the Royal Highland. And they, they had a national stock judging competition that was on one of the days and pretty much similar to, to all the big shows here, too. Your accommodation can be pretty interesting. I was, I was sleeping in a container and I mean, it certainly wasn't the most comfortable place to sleep, but, you know, you don't sleep much at shows anyway, so it was really just a place to keep my clothes. And I remember we had to, in this competition, we had to evaluate four Hereford cows and then describe them. I think it was four Highland bulls and four Charolais heifers. And so I was forced into it by my boss. He said, look, we need three or four people from the Hereford breed to do it. And was like, this is part of your job, so off you go. And, and then as soon as I was done with that, I took a gap and went and had a long nap in the container. I remember so clearly at about 7 that night, because the, the, the sun is high in the sky at that time. I mean, Edinburgh, the sun goes down at like 11 at night, you know, middle of the year. And he came banging on the door and he said, like, pj, where were you? Where have you been? So I said, I was just catching up a nap because, you know, cattle are fed and watered and go check on them later, everything's fine. And he said, but you missed the prize giving. I said, yeah, okay, whatever. He said, yeah, you won the stock judging competition. And I was like, what? So anyway, so he brought my trophy and, and all that. And, and I think I'd so enjoyed sorting cattle from when I was tiny. Like, I used to love sorting replacement heifers and, you know, getting the cows into their breeding groups. So I was really employing the Same strategy as, as I would. And even when it came to talking them, I think that's why maybe my reasons probably wouldn't do too well in the US Stock judging competition. I think I might be kicked out in the first round, but it, it was really just trying to employ those, just the practicalities of sorting livestock. And then when I got back to South Africa, our system was a little different. So the way stock judging or judges grew into their careers or profiles was done breed by breed. So each breed had beginners courses and if you passed that, you became a beginner and then eventually you pass some other test and you, you know, a test where you, they, they mimic a show and you place cattle and talk them and then you write a written exam and, and then you be, you become a junior and then you judge a few shows as an associate, an associate with a senior. And eventually if you do enough senior deals and you gray enough and old enough, then you become what they call a breed judge. And that's when you start doing the nationals and you have to do this for each different breed. So it just takes forever. But what it did do is it instills a bit of a discipline in you when it, when it comes to, you know, how you sort cattle because you, you're climbing a ladder, right? Or you're continuously climbing a ladder to try and get to a stage where you can actually start evaluating decent sized shows. And what I loved when I came to the US is it's not like that at all. Like if a show wants your opinion, they hire you. That doesn't matter, you know, what courses you've been on or any of that. And I remember I did a few small shows when I got here. I think it was just word of mouth and people I'd been speaking to. But Houston hired me to do the Hereford and Bain and Jew show, which in Houston's not huge. You know, it's mainly a Boss Indicus deal anyway. And this was about a year after I'd arrived and I just, I really feel at home in the ring because for me it's the same as being in the corral back at home sorting cattle. I mean, that's pretty much what I'm doing. And maybe that's why some people don't like it, because they, they feel like I'm looking for something that isn't as unique or. Well, you know, there's so many different words that people use now. And I was just looking for, you know, functionally sound, optical, well balanced cattle that had structural integrity in Them and, and I think since that time in Houston, that would have been 2014, there's only been one year that I haven't judged in Houston since then. I'm doing the Brahmins now in a month or so's time, which will. That'll put me through my paces. I think there's gonna be, geez, I don't know, 15, 1600 cattle there. But yeah, that's what got it started. From there, a lot of the international shows started hiring me. I think a lot of that came off what Houston had exposed, how Houston helped me get exposed. And it's just been wild since then. It's been amazing.

A (31:36)

From the sounds of it, Houston's probably one of your more favorites to judge. But what are some other places that you've judged at that really brought some unique opportunity or allowed you to meet other people or see differences in cattle or types and kinds, you know, at different places that you judged?

B (31:55)

So in the U.S. i mean, Houston, Houston's unique. I mean, it's very difficult to compare Houston to anything else. It's just a very different type of show scale wise. The atmosphere, the type of cattle there's. Especially when you start getting into, you know, your boss Indicus or American type breeds. I've really enjoyed Fort Worth. It's also got its own atmosphere. It's special. Louisville is really, really special. And then when you get into Canada, Canadian Western Agribation, the Toronto Royal and Farm Fair International are three really good shows. Like not, not as big as the US in junior shows, but their open shows are massive, especially on the bull side. You know, they've got breeding bulls that are like the bulls that win those shows actually get used in the industry. And then Palermo down in Argentina is magical just in terms of the size of the crowd, the atmosphere. It's like 170 years old. And there's just so much history. And you can just feel like every decision you make is going to mean something. I really like a lot of the European shows for how they involve. Involve the general public. They really get a lot of public to come through there. And then Australia, the big shows in Australia are fun because you get numbers and it's a different atmosphere. The cattle are very industry relevant. They do a really good job of it. It's just a. It's a different feeling. And that's what I've found has been interesting is it's just the. You've got to adapt pretty quickly to how those different shows are run. And you know, the age of cattle that come through, you know, some of them will show older cattle and you know, it's not even in Canada. You can get an 8, 9 year old cow with a big fat calf next to it and she might end up being your champion. So it's a little different to, to shooting for a bread he every time. And then I think where I've learned the most and I'll, and I'll try and wrap, wrap this thought up and, and come full circle is probably in the countries that aren't quite as polished when it comes to running events where the, where you, you've actually really got to apply your philosophies and be hardcore in, in how you sort those cattle because I feel you get, you probably get tested a lot more in that kind of environment than you know, a Texas Major or U.S. national Show. The work's really done for you. The cattle. Every showman is professional, every animal is fitted correctly. The lighting's good, the ring's good, the ring help is good. You slept in a nice hotel the night before. You ate a meal that you know wasn't going to give you food poisoning. So when you get into Kazakhstan or like some of the other Asian, African, Latin American countries that I've worked in, I feel like that's where you really tune your craft. And I remember listening and I can't even remember who it was but it was a stand up comedian talking about why they do small bars and pubs and not only stadiums. Like it was a guy with a profile who could easily just be doing stadium shows. And basically what he was saying was that you really find out whether, whether your jokes work and whether your product is still relevant in a smaller crowd and a tougher crowd and an environment that doesn't feel like, like you're quite comfortable, doesn't feel like home as opposed to in a stadium, someone's going to laugh, you know, at these guys jokes and there's enough atmosphere for people to go along with it. But if you, if you're in a bar and you're doing a stand up routine to half a dozen people, you're going to know pretty well whether your material is good or not. And I found that you know, in Kazakhstan, judging in a car, a parking lot that had like a, like a foot of ice on it where the cattle would come in not on halters and they slide towards you and, and they don't even want you to speak more than 30 seconds on the mic because the MC is the local DJ from the city and he's entertaining the crowd and you'd like, how do I do this? How do I actually sort these cattle that are sliding towards me on ice? And then you really have to start refining, you know, your, your material and your product to where it's a lot harder to be right. Like, the steer shows I've done in Africa have been fascinating. Really, really good steers and they. In a pen and there's three of them and you, you know, you judge them as a group and then you pick your, your highest individual at the end. But they're not on halters and none of them are fitted. They've just, they've, they've come out of wherever they've been fed in confinement. And you kind of might get two seconds to have a good look at them standing. Like you'll get a lot of time seeing them all clumped up in a group. And you really just have to be on, you know, there's a, that it's, none of it is done for you. And I find that those settings are so good at refining, you know, and fine tuning you. And I encourage a lot of younger judges to, to keep doing the small ones and the difficult ones and the ones that are not in the best venues and the ones that are far away, like, never stop doing those because, and I've seen this, I mean, I don't know what your opinion would be on this, but when you watch judges who, who only do one or two nationals a year and that's all they do, and it's always like, you know, it's the big setting, it's the major setting, it's a big ring, it's perfect. All the cattle look the same, they all handle the same, they fitted and fed the same. And it's so professional, they, they lose their touch a little bit.

A (37:28)

I would agree.

B (37:29)

They're not being challenged. You know, you go to a Show when it's 100 degrees outside in a bad lit show barn in, in Texas, that's a jackpot show where one looks like an elephant and the other one looks like a giraffe. And you got to sort them. That, that's, that's what keeps you shocked.

A (37:49)

I would agree. What's your take on judging these, let's say, steer shows and their prospect shows? Jackpot shows. And they're younger compared to judging a steer show when they're at their target weight, headed to the trailer afterwards.

B (38:03)

Yeah, I think that's where it's. I don't know what the number is, but you've got to have observed so many cattle in your life through different stages of their lives, in order to project what a younger animal is going to look like, you know, as it's ready, ready for harvest or ready for its final show. And I think that's where a true understanding of structure comes into it. I think a true understanding of muscle shape and muscle tone, muscle mass and muscle depth comes into it. An understanding of, of fleshing ability and whether an animal has inherent body condition or if that body condition is all going to come out of a bucket. A lot of that, I don't know what the number is, but it's probably like you've, you've got to have observed 10,000 animals to be able to come within some realistic projection of what that animal is going to do. And when it comes down to that, I remember using this analogy with some young guys in South Africa that were getting into judging steers. And I said, they said, well, like, how did you make that call so quickly? And it was one of those where it's so many pens of three steers and, you know, they, they thought, you know, it should have taken a lot longer. And I said to them, when you guys were in college and you sitting at the bar and three girls come through the door, how long did it take you to be able to turn around and describe all three of those girls in detail and know which one you were hoping to get a number from that night? And it's, it's, it's repetition, right? I mean, at the end of the day, they, like in college, those guys have observed thousands and thousands of girls. And it's repetition. It's just spending enough time understanding what, what you're looking at and being able to make a call on it. I don't think, I don't think you can get there without observing a lot of animals through your life. The other thing is, and I think that this is, for me, what separates the really good cattle evaluators from the rest is, is looking at the, the whole picture or the forest first and then, if necessary, breaking it down tree for tree. Because I think where a lot of people fall into a trap is they're so good at finding the dead trees in the forest, but they struggle to just see the forest and go, yeah, that one's going to work. Does that make sense? Does that analogy.

A (40:23)

Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. I find it so funny on the, on the first analogy that you pointed out, but it does make sense. And using that, I'm sure to anybody would help clarify in a way that, you know, you've Got to see an abundant amount of cattle at different stages of their life to realize or know what they're going to look like and how to project correctly. But one thing that I find, I didn't even have to ask you, you know, is projecting cattle at a jackpot show important? And I see some of the judges, you know, at these jackpot shows, whether they're big jackpots or not, some don't even project the cattle. They just talk about what they are then and now. I, in my opinion, and you can correct me if I'm wrong or if you think differently, P.J. but I think projecting these cattle at jackpot shows at a younger stage, or even at national level shows where, you know, they're yearling calves or whatever, I think it's important to project what they're going to look like in the future.

B (41:21)

Yeah. And I think that goes, I agree with you, 100 Weston. I think that goes to steers, heifers and bulls. You know, if, if a, if a heifer's not showing you true hormonal balance or femininity when she's young and she's not showing you that she actually has the ability to naturally flesh, she's never going to be good. And, and if, if the same with a bull, if he's not showing you some masculinity and, and masculine traits and some muscle shape and tone and testicle size at a young age, you know, it's never, it's never going to work. And if it does, it's going to be too late. And with the steers as well, you know, those steers need to, they need to be three dimensional from the start. They need to have a genuine frame that they can hang product on. If a steer is not sound, it's a few months old, goodness, it's going to be a wreck when it's ready for harvest. So I think projection is essential because you're also helping the junior that's managing that project or owns that project, because I've actually got neighbor two doors down and they show heifers. And without knowing it, I ended up judging one of the heifers not too long ago, which was a little bit of an awkward moment because there were four in the class and my neighbors end up fourth and my wife was sitting with their boilers doing this. But what I explained to them afterwards is this, this heifer was young. And if their, their daughter had carried on with this heifer right through to getting her to be a bred heifer one day, it wouldn't be Worth all the resources and the feed and the time and the energy and the heartache to pour into that heifer when we could tell her right now that it's not going to work. And I think that that was a projection that was hard in the moment because the people live next door to me. But I think in the long run it helps them because they just discontinue with that project. Right, right. Like if. And that was just pure projection. That was just saying down the line, this heifer is going to get so heavy fronted and so thick necked that no one's going to use it. So rather cut your losses now and jump in on a new project. And I think for steers too, it's the same, you know, if you call it when they're young, like it and say, look, this, this is not. Because I've heard it often on the mic where the judges will say with, with some time and feed or time and nutrition, this will, this one will sort itself out. But time and nutrition don't sort everything out. There's some that are just better to cut your losses with now.

A (43:54)

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A (46:31)

Completely agree. And I think that's the, the honesty to tell that to a family, I think intriguing to me because most people probably wouldn't do that just due to either who they are or what they associate themselves with or getting a, I guess a bad reference because you called something out. Does that make sense?

B (46:51)

Well, like the, the guy's an. I don't know, he's a Navy Seal or he's, he's some kind of hardcore military guy. So, like, it, it adds the, it adds the incentive to be honest from the start. I think he's. He's either a Marine or a Navy SEAL or something.

A (47:09)

That's funny. That's funny.

B (47:11)

So I thought I'd shoot him straight first time.

A (47:14)

That's right. For sure. In terms of watching other people evaluate livestock, what are some people that you looked up to that helped you recognize different things or learn to evaluate different things as your time went on while judging and evaluating?

B (47:30)

I think, look, if I go back to South Africa, there were a couple of judges there that I really appreciate it. And it's a slightly different judging system. It's not as quick as here, but the consistency and the way in which they never compromised on whatever their philosophies were, you know, I definitely learned a lot from that. In terms of just pure Ringcraft. I've always admired the way Jack Ward judges just. I really think that his consistency and the flow and the confidence and just the command that he has and the way he does it. And I had the pleasure of judging with him at The World Angus Forum, which was just an awesome experience. This is ten years ago now. I mean, America's got a lot of good judges and a lot of good judges, great judges that I don't necessarily agree with on their philosophies, but I love watching them because they're consistent. Like, I actually, I don't mind if people disagree with me or if I disagree with them, as long as they're consistent and they stick to their own guns, you know, whatever that might be. It's. Yeah, I can go with that. Every single, every. Shane Bedwell, another guy I really, really enjoy watching. He's been. He's been fun to watch some really good Canadian judges. And. And then just from a Ringcraft standpoint, the US Judges that. A lot of what they say, like, doesn't make sense to me at all. Like, I, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't coached here. So the whole concept of flat drums and long necks and big bone. Yeah, I mean, that might be a subject for another time, but I still need someone to explain why any of that is relevant. But, but I, But I still enjoy watching some of those guys do it because of just how professional they are, you know, and how. How good they are at doing it their way. Yeah, there are a lot of good judges in the US Specifically, that you can really learn from, regardless of whether they follow the same philosophies as you.

A (49:34)

This is just a curious question of mine. You've been in the US Long enough. What. In terms of, you know, there's. There's kids that do livestock judging through college, and then there's kids that don't. How do you think they do compared to each other? And do you think there's a big difference at all?

B (49:54)

I've actually. Yeah, I've witnessed both sides of that coin, and I think there are pros and cons to both sides. I think the pros to doing it in college, number one, from a public speaking standpoint, from a confidence standpoint, from a ring craft and efficiency while judging standpoint. That professionalism goes a long way and I admire it. And it's a really good presentation and show to watch. On the flip side of that, you've got the guys who weren't classically trained through livestock judging at a college in the US And I think where I probably enjoy them from the pro side on their side is probably a little more original in what they're saying, a little less robotic in how they go about what they're doing. There's a. There's an authenticity about it. They're drawing from somewhere else that, you know, that, that it's a little less group think, but there's crossover, you know, no judge is only applying what he learned in college. And even the guys who didn't learn through a college judging program are borrowing from other college judges that did, you know. So there's a lot of cross pollination with that. I would definitely encourage young judges that are just coming out of a college system to definitely dig deep and find something original that's theirs so they don't sound like the other guys on their team. And to question everything, like to have more than one teacher, you know, and I think that's maybe a human condition more than anything that we, we find the one teacher or mentor that we like and we, whatever they say goes and we start looking like them and sounding like them and acting like them. And I think there's a value in, in having multiple teachers. And even if you don't agree with all of them or you don't particularly like some of the stuff they're saying, just at least pay attention to it and just question stuff, you know, because if you look at the cattle industry in the US in the 50s and into the 60s, the cattle were belt high. And by the 70s we knew that was wrong. In the 80s they were sky high. Early 90s, we knew that was wrong. Then we went to tiny birth, like low birth weight cattle that caused issues with pelvic size on the heifers. And then we went all the way in on carcass. A bit of an about turn now and we trying to make it maternal and carcass again. So my argument there is that through all those ups and downs and pendulum swings, there are individuals that were teaching all of that. Do you understand what I'm saying? That the same guys who were teaching belt I were also teaching sky high and then we're also teaching extremely low birth weight and then they went on and went all out on carcass. So if you, if you are honest student, you've got to start questioning that stuff, you know, because whatever we teaching now, and here's my prediction, this huge bone, huge hair thing, 20 years from now we're going to be scratching our heads and asking what we were thinking. And maybe I'm wrong. I mean I'm wrong a lot of times, ask my wife like several times a day. So maybe I'm wrong on the huge bone and maximum hair. But I predict that we probably will be questioning why we didn't go for optimum and why we went for maximum on that. And. And maybe I'm. And if I'm wrong, that's fine too. But I would suggest that anyone who's getting into this and actually giving a. It is a professional opinion, because these shows pay you for your time, is just question this. So the next time you mention that, you know an animal's dead level from hips to pin or hooks to pin, just ask yourself why that's a good thing, you know? Or why a tail head has to be as high as they are. Why it's necessary for a neck to come out so high out of an animal's shoulders. There are a lot of questions, and I think in the end, it'll make us better cattle evaluators if we keep questioning ourselves and keep questioning our teachers. And the best way to do that is to have a lot of teachers and to. To just draw the best from each one of them. Otherwise we become. It becomes a. A house of mirrors. And everyone's saying the same thing back to each other. And then when the house burns down, everyone says, how did that happen?

A (53:53)

I'd like to ask if what is a scripture quote or anything like that that's been a big motivator, made a huge impact on how you see things.

B (54:03)

That's. Wow. You. You have. You've put me on the spot there. Okay. Actually, I do have something. There's a guy called Johnny Hills. You guys will have to. You'll have to Google him if. If you're not familiar with the sport of rugby, which is very similar to football, except, look, football's the. The. The biggest sport in the US Played by boys. I mean, the biggest game in the US Played by boys, where rugby is a sport played by men. That's if that's the major difference. But anyway, Johnny Hills, he captained the Australian World cup team back in 99. And he said two things that you can apply to genetics. And for me, it's two things that I try and keep close to me when I'm just exercising thoughts or trying to refine thoughts around livestock. The first thing was that there's so much stuff in the world. There's so many things that are measurable, but it doesn't necessarily make them meaningful. So we maybe measure too much that isn't meaningful. Okay. And the second thing he said was that our job as leaders. So let's say our job as breeders or our job as cattle people, is to take a complex situation and make it simple and then make it compelling. Okay? So you take a complex situation, make it simple, and then make it compelling. I think what a lot of us are doing in the cattle industry now is we take a complex situation and we then make it confusing. No, we. Instead of making it simple, we. We. We make it complicated, and then we make it confusing. So I, I like what John Neal said. They take a complex situation, simplify it, and then make it compelling. And I, I think we can apply that to genetics. He was talking about sport, but I think we can apply that to genetics.

A (55:49)

There's one more question. It's been something that. It's a. It's a statement or question that I've asked myself for a long time, but I've. Every guest episode that I've ever had, and it goes along with what we call this platform. Empower you. But what empowers you to be better than who you were before.

B (56:08)

Yeah. And the first thing, and I think that this. This really changed the way I think was when I realized that we are not compelled to be who we were five minutes ago, that you're allowed to change your mind. You're allowed to change the way you think. Because too many of us get trapped in a thought process or in a philosophy, and we never, ever leave it. And then what happens is it almost becomes like a. Like a dogman. It becomes like a cult like behavior, and you just get so deep into it that you can never get out. And I think it's. It's really freeing and refreshing to look at it this way, that it's okay to be wrong. It's okay to understand that maybe the way you thought about something yesterday or last year or 10 years ago is different to how you think about it today and that you really, really aren't like, compelled to be who you were five minutes ago. I think freedom comes with that. That's. That's something that's definitely given me more confidence to. To speak freely. Using a completely different philosophy to maybe what I did on some. On. On certain subjects, maybe just a year, 10 years, 20 years ago.

A (57:22)

So that'll kind of be the wrap of the episode. I don't know if there's anything else that you'd like to talk about or point out, but I sure enjoyed it, for sure. And I'm glad that you were able to come on and have some conversations with me.

B (57:34)

Well, Weston, this is absolute joy. And again, I love what you're doing with empower you. And I really think that we need more of this accountability. And you know that it's not just accountability, but there's a. There's a level of entertainment that comes with it, but also it's educated. You know, we can really educate the industry with your platform and I encourage you to keep going and it was fun chatting and yeah, I'm honored that you asked me. I appreciate that.

A (58:03)

With that said, everybody, this is going to be your guest episode for this week and I sure appreciate PJ coming on, taking time and grateful for the listeners that we have on the platform and how it's evolved. With that said, this is what it's all about. We appreciate y' all tuning in. Empowerment's here. We'll see y' all next time. Make sure to check out our website@empoweryou podcast.org where you'll find our team's story, sponsor highlights and merchandise. But also make sure to check out our social media on Facebook and Instagram poweryou Podcast Pod to stay up to date on episode, sneak peeks and releases, merchandise updates and sponsor announcements. We are proud to have you as a listener on and hope you gained more knowledge through us. Make sure to give us a five star rating and have a blessed day.