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- [00:06]
Weston Hendricks
Welcome to season three of Empower your and I'm Weston Hendricks, the owner and host and this is my team.
- [00:11]
Augustus Sexton
Hey guys, I'm Augustus Sexton. I'm the co host and supervisor of the podcast.
- [00:17]
Quinn Hartley
And I'm Quinn Hartley, the social media manager as well as another co host of the platform. With that said, season three comes with change. Every Friday, a new episode is released with sneak peeks on our social medias out the day before.
- [00:32]
Augustus Sexton
Our goal is to be consistent, competitive and Christ like. We as a team strive for excellence in all that we do and want to gain knowledge from industry leaders and expand on trends of the industry and what they offer.
- [00:47]
Weston Hendricks
Our priority is to empower you as an individual in the livestock industry and to gain knowledge and confidence while consuming it from some of the most influential people in our industry. So, as always, enjoy the episode and here's to empowering you. Well, guys, it is now episode seven of Empower your and I couldn't be more excited for this opportunity to have a guy like John on the platform. He's been a mentor of mine for quite some time, fortunate enough to get to know him a little bit here and there, and just being able to watch him judge shows and do what he does in an efficient and incredible way is something that I've looked up to for a long time. So for him to be able to take time and hop on here and have a discussion with us means a lot. So with that said, John, if you would like to introduce yourself and let the listeners get to know you a little bit and then after that we'll get it on.
- [01:47]
John de Klerk
All right, sounds good. Thanks for having me, guys. So I'm John de Klerk. I live in College Station, Texas. I'm currently a technical consultant for Purina Animal Nutrition. Provide kind of technical solutions for customers throughout New Mexico, Texas and Louisiana right now. I grew up in the Midwest in the little town of Aledo, Illinois. Family got kind of a cattle background. My nephews show cattle right now, show Scimitols and a couple other breeds. Really proud of the success that those guys have had and been fortunate to get to play a minor role in that success. I was big into showing livestock and then I ended up going to Blackhawk East Junior College for my undergrad. Finished up at Texas A and M. Was able to judge on a couple teams there that were really successful. We lost once in junior college at San Antonio and then my A and M team went undefeated and then did my master's and PhD at Texas Tech. I was able to coach a Few national champion teams up there. And then I taught at Iowa State in Texas Tech as a livestock judging coach before I started in my current job here at Purina.
- [02:53]
Weston Hendricks
Awesome. It's definitely quite a reputation that you have. And so, with that said, I guess we'd start from the beginning. Just kind of tell us how you got introduced into the industry and what led you from high school to pursue it collegiately.
- [03:09]
John de Klerk
Yeah. So I think, you know, I'm probably pretty similar to most students, I imagine. Pretty similar to you guys. Right. You kind of start off, you got an interest in cattle. My dad had cows and, you know, always wanted the opportunity to show cattle. And because I started showing, that kind of got me involved into livestock judging. And I'm really lucky that I got into livestock judging. And obviously, I spent a lot of time coaching, but I believe very strongly the livestock judging and showing cattle is a tremendous vehicle for student development. And obviously, I got to learn and network with a lot of people through both of those events. But it instilled in me kind of those work ethic, you know, kind of being able to show up, be competitive, but do things the right way. And the skill set that I acquired from showing cattle and livestock judging, I used from academics that ended up getting a PhD and then I still use today and Purina to be, hopefully what my colleagues would say is successful some days more than others, but big, big fan of that. So kind of grew up showing cattle. You know, we didn't show any great ones when I was a kid, but because that probably fueled my passion for judging livestock, because I've kind of always had a passion, strong passion to make a mark on the livestock industry and judging cattle, and then maybe judging shows look like maybe a potential way to do that.
- [04:31]
Augustus Sexton
Awesome. And so you talked about you were really successful in your judging career in that. And then, you know, what's. What's the want to go from just judging to then wanting to coach while pursuing a PhD?
- [04:46]
John de Klerk
Yeah. So it was a kind of a natural next step. Right. And I'll be honest with you, I was very lucky to get to judge with some great individuals, particularly when it comes to livestock. Judging is a team success sport. And having a couple coaches that did a good job of instilling the right values and kind of culture around us where we kind of work collaboratively. Don't get me wrong, both my teams at Blackhawk and A and M, we all wanted to be the high individual, but we also understood that there was a goal that was greater than just individual accolades. And so I was fortunate to get to be around a couple coaches there that really instilled that right type of learning environment and collaboration amongst teammates. And because of that, that probably kind of led me to the opportunity that, hey, I enjoy judging, and I probably wanted to coach and to give back. There is. The feeling of being a National Champion is unlike anything else I've ever experienced. And as fun as that was, I certainly enjoyed the opportunity of coaching National Champion teams because as a coach, you get to know your students really well, you get the opportunity to bond with them, you see them work, you feel their pain maybe more than they do. And so giving those kids that experience, giving them that opportunity to call themselves a National champion, is one of the most enjoyable things I've ever done in my life. So obviously that the chance there became kind of a tailor made for me because I've had kind of some scientific curiosity from somebody that really likes nutrition. And my current role of getting to kind of consult large operations or get to work with some of the most progressive breeders in the country is a great role for me. And a lot of that's going to stem from the nutrition side. So it just was a great opportunity to get to kind of do the two things that I'm really passionate about. Talk about cattle production and then still work on youth development and look at good livestock along the way.
- [06:38]
Weston Hendricks
Yes, sir. Of course. And, you know, just even talking about nutrition and such, I'd like to know why you chose getting your PhD in ruminant nutrition. I mean, obviously, it's something that not many usually would go after or some people might even find difficult. So I'd like to know, you know, go back to that day you decided to. What did you see the benefits in doing so?
- [07:00]
John de Klerk
You know, so, Weston, I'll tell you that sometimes in life you just gotta be lucky to surround yourself with the right people. And so, you know, I had, like, Dan Hogue along my way, and then Dr. Skaggs, and then now I'd say Dr. Ryan Rathman. Dr. Rathman, for sure, has played the most integral role on my life and somebody I'm very fortunate to count as a mentor. But for me, I guess it actually came down to Dr. Skaggs. So when I was doing my undergrad, Texas AM, I really, like breeding in genetics. Dr. Sanders was a tremendous professor. That was a class that intellectually challenged me and I found quite enjoyable. And I remember Dr. Skaggs telling me, he said, you know, I know you've got a great interest in genetics, but there's just quite a bit more jobs in nutrition. And he encouraged me to kind of look into nutrition. At that point I kind of was looking at several different places for grad school considered K State, going back to U of I, but then, then kind of getting a chance to talk to Dr. Rathman. He kind of sealed the deal for me and was, was able to really kind of showcase maybe there's more industry opportunities from a nutritional standpoint. And I guess after, you know, when you're an undergrad, you really don't know. You don't have that life experience to understand where maybe the best opportunities lie. So when I got Dr. Rathman, Dr. Skaggs both telling me the same thing, I might not be very smart, but I was sharp enough to understand I better just follow their advice.
- [08:24]
Weston Hendricks
That's about right.
- [08:26]
Augustus Sexton
That is a good thing to do. And so you're talking about being with Purina now. What are some of the differences you've seen from when you first got into the feed world into where it's at now and kind of what do you think, where's it trending and what's the long range future for it?
- [08:44]
John de Klerk
Boy, that's a great question. And it's something that I work with quite a bit. So even compared to when I started my masters, when we first started getting nutrition, it's changed so much today. So a couple things that have really changed over time. So the biodiesel industry is really getting popular. And so because of the biodiesel industry, they're buying up pretty much all the fat sources. So when I'm trying to formulate rations, fats a fantastic additive alright. It's got two and a quarter times more calories than what a carbohydrate like corn is going to have. So it's very calorically dense. But also we think about show cattle it's good for skin and hide, it gives them kind of a good luster. And you're going to help probably grow some hair that way for breeding cattle. Pretty much every hormone that a cow needs to breed is a cholesterol based hormone. So they're built that steroid based hormones are built with cholesterol. So they'll use the right, if you got the right source of fat, they'll use that kind of cholesterol as building blocks to jumpstart the reproductive cycle. So there's, there's a lot of different uses for fat and fat's gotten really expensive because of the biodiesel industry. You know, we're trying to figure out here moving forward because biodiesel looks like it's going to be so popular. There's estimates in the next 10 years that we're going to lose about 30 million acres of corn, which we plant about 90 to 95 million acres of corn a year. So basically a third of corn acres are going to disappear and that's all going to move to soybeans because we need more biodiesel. So if that's the case, we'll leave. More of our engines are going to go to electric and so there won't be as much need of an ethanol. So that'll probably preclude the use of DDG in a lot of our diets. And there may be less corn around because that as well, we're just not planting as much corn and there'll be a lot more soybean meal. And so there's kind of a shift in the industry starting to evaluate what's the best way to use soybean meal. It's a good protein source like ddg, but it's not as calorically dense, it doesn't have quite as much fat. So that's something we're working on a lot. When I first started kind of nutrition, you know, 2017, we had the veterinary feed directive and that, that certainly drastically changed the industry. You know, before that you could feed oral myosin, ctc, these broad spectrum antibiotics and feedstuffs. You can't do that anymore without a, without a veterinary feed directive, without a script from a vet that was tightened up again here the last couple years, or actually, excuse me, last summer. And they kind of also made a little bit more challenging to reimplant cattle too. So, you know, for years we've continued to add outweight to cattle. Right? You know, since 1990. You know, the average slaughter weight or harvest weight in 1990 was about 1100 pounds. You know, last year 1413 was the average harvest weight. You know, right now it's probably about 1440. So we're getting these cattle bigger, but we've done it with better technology, you know, utilizing beta agonists, implants, better. You know, we're getting better at feeding cattle. But now the FDA is making it a little tougher for us to harness some of those technologies. So we got to kind of move around that. I'm sure you guys have probably noticed when it comes to show feeds, and in particularly a lot of these different feeds we're looking at now, you hear a lot more about probiotics and prebiotics, different phytogenic compounds. I guess, maybe not lucky for Europe, but For lucky for us, the European continent, the countries in Europe, they haven't been able to use antibiotics in quite some time. So they're kind of been, you know, investigating some more of those probiotics and prebiotics and phytogenic compounds to figure out if they can elicit the right type of response from cattle, whether that be from health parameters for gain, improving the microbiome. So, you know, there's quite a bit of data out there about those things, and we're starting to incorporate more of those different compounds in some of our feed stuffs here in the United States.
- [12:31]
Augustus Sexton
You talk about how the carcass weights on cattle just keep getting bigger and bigger and how we started out about 1200 or so. Do you think that's because of feed getting more expensive in that, that it's easier just to feed one calf to get them bigger and take up more space in a cooler versus feeding two calves to get the same amount of meat?
- [12:56]
John de Klerk
Well, so, you know, we hear a lot about sustainability these days, and I really think if you look at the sustainability of the American rancher, it's just incredible. Okay, so we've got 28.2 million beef cows on January 1st of this year. That's the smallest beef cow herd we've had since 1962. All right, we had 45 million beef cows in 1970, and we will make more pounds of beef today with 28.2 million beef cows than we did with 45 million beef cows in 1970. The general rule of thumb is that three steers today make the same amount of beef as four steers did in 1970. So we've kind of had to grow these cattle bigger because we've got more urban sprawl, so we got less pasture ground available to us. Obviously, down here in the state of Texas and throughout the Southwest, La Nina has had really pernicious effects. We've had a couple years of drought where we've liquidated a lot of cows. See, we lost 189,000 cows just in the state of Texas alone last year due to drought. So because of drought, because of some differences there in urban sprawl, we just don't have as many cattle. So naturally, we've had to push cattle heavier. Now, of course, feed prices changed from years to years. A couple years ago, feed was really high. You know, had, like, corn up around $7 a bushel. Today, corn's, you know, down in the fours. And if you look at the price of inflation, so, like, in cumulative inflation since 2020 is about 20%. So if you look at the price of corn today, even though it's four bucks, it's, it's honestly probably about as cheap as it's ever been. You know, corn maybe 30 years ago was $2, but you know, relative to where the economy is, four dollar corn is pretty cheap. So that's part of the reason we're seeing a big jump this year in carcass weights. You know, 960 is the average harvest weight or carcass weight last week. And when I was a kid growing up, they used to dock them at £950. You know, now we're docking at £1100. So those packers have kind of made the decision that they need beef and we don't have as many cattle. So they are continuing to raise the hot carcass weight discount because they just need to generate more total pounds of product. And we're starting to fabricate those carcasses a little different. There's a lot of different cuts that were not even around when I was a kid. All right. That we're starting to be able to put together, you know, create things a little different. So cattle facts did a kind of study where they're estimating we're adding about $42 to every carcass because we're fabricating those carcasses a little different. And even moving forward, you know, like a lot of that when I was a kid, everybody talked about they wouldn't fit the box. Right now they're kind of estimating that like maybe in 10 years, if the rib eyes continue to get bigger, you won't buy just a whole ribeye. You'll buy either the spinalis, which is kind of the cap, or you'll buy the longissimus muscle like the loini. You'll buy one or the other. They'll split those two muscles apart. And from a cooking standpoint, it's easier to prepare when there's only one muscle instead of two. So the cattle industry is drastically changing. It's exciting to be a part of these times and you know, we're really kind of on the front end of that from a nutrition standpoint because we're fueling that extra growth and performance that we see in these cattle today.
- [16:02]
Quinn Hartley
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- [16:57]
Weston Hendricks
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And okay, so you were talking about like how prominent the fat ingredient's becoming. But so I want to switch over to protein. And it's a question that me and Mr. Topher Dalton had. And your ideal bioavailability between the difference of feedstuffs and how efficient that makes in terms of conversion rates and physical change when you're trying to maximize those results.
- [17:27]
John de Klerk
So that's a good, great question. Uhm, what I'll tell you is that ruminant animals are kind of a little different. So protein in cattle are digested in two different places. We can digest protein in the rumen and we can digest protein in the small intestine. So for me, when we think about protein digested in the small intestine that is used by the animal for protein turnover. So protein synthesis and protein degradation happen every day. So every muscle cell or every protein cell in your body is torn down every day and built back up every day. So on a cow or a heifer or steer, whatever it may be, that protein absorbed in the small intestine is going to protein synthesis. So if I want to build muscle or if I want to feed a lot of protein, like an Atkins type diet where I want to kind of lean them up a little bit, you know, like, you know, something like fitter 52 or 35, where we can clean up their necks, I want to get that bypass protein in the small intestine. That's how I'm going to accomplish that. Protein can also be digested in the, in the rumen. And the protein digested in the rumen is used by the bugs or the microbes. So the reason cattle can digest hay and grass and you and I can, just because they got these bugs or microbes that ferment that grass. They excrete a volatile fatty acid which is kind of a, you know, an end product for them, something they don't need. Well then the cattle can absorb that volatile fatty acid and use as an energy source. And so when protein digests in the rumen is used by those bugs as a fuel source, so they digest more efficiently. When we look at protein, that's going to be digested in the rumen. So like when I look at cows, alright, we got mature cows that really don't have much of a protein requirement in terms of they're not building any protein or not building any muscle at that stage of their life. I want to make sure that we get more protein in the rumen because they're probably digesting a lot of hay and grass and I want to give those bugs the fuel they need to digest that hay and grass more completely and to digest it faster because the faster they digest that hay and grass, the more they move it down the track and then that frees up space in the rumen for them to eat more. So on younger cattle I'm probably going to be looking for the right balance of, you know, rumen degraded and rumen undegraded or you know, bypass protein to ensure that I got the right thing there. So you know, sometimes that's going to be based on what your ingredients are. You know, if you're using some urea, it's probably, you know, maybe you're going to look for a little bit more bypass protein. It depends on what your protein sources are. If you're using, you know, distillers grains or corn gluten or cottonseed meal or there's a lot of different kind of soybean meal. And we're gonna look at that ratio of rumen degraded protein which is digested in the rumen or rumen undergraded protein which is digested in the small intestine to make sure that we get the right amount. What I would tell you too is on our show heifers, we almost feed them backwards of a cow. Like I want to get a lot of room in undergraded protein that's digesting the small intestine because those show heifers were trying to make them really big bellied. We're trying to make them look sappy centered, but I don't want them to get too fat. And so I really want to make sure we get protein to the small intestine so that they don't get muscle atrophy where they kind of melt and they get kind of flat from behind. But I really don't want their, their, their bugs in the rumen to be that much more efficient. Because if we can make cattle particularly show heifers fat chested or get fat around their pones if we get those bugs more efficient in the rumen. So if you've ever seen like a cow that has lost their calf you can see one get grass fat. You know, they're out there on pasture and they'll get pones around their tail, head, or their chest will get really chubby. So cattle will take a forage, any forage, hay or grass, and they create a volatile fatty acid called acetate. And acetate goes into subcutaneous fat. And so if we got good grass and good hay, and the bugs in the rumen are doing a good job digesting it, on a show heifer, they can get chubby chested. I could feed zero corn, I could feed zero carbohydrates, and I could still blow the chest out of a heifer. So when I'm thinking about feeding heifers, I actually want that hay and forage to stay in the room and longer because it makes them a little deeper bodied. It slows down the rate of passage, and that's going to make those cattle look deeper. And I don't want those bugs to be very efficient at digesting that forage because I don't want to get them chubby. So on show heifers, we'll feed them probably a little different than what we're going to feed. Like a show steer, where I want to have the right balance of rumen degraded and undegraded protein, because I want to make sure that he's getting enough calories in the rumen to where he can get some finish on him. But we still got to make sure they get enough protein. The small intestine where we don't see him melt away from behind, some of that's going to be a case by case scenario, I'm sure Wes, and you guys have probably showed some steers that are big, muscled, and maybe it was okay if we melted a little bit of muscle off of them, right, because it was more beneficial to their structure. And we've got some different ways to feed cattle like that. So it probably depends on a show animal, what animal, you know, kind of what the phenotypic merit of the calf looks like, you know. But in an industry standpoint, I'm thinking cows, I want to get more room, integrated protein, because we want them to digest the hay and grass better. You know, feedlot cattle and bulls, we want a good balance of both. Same thing with developing heifers. Probably a good balance of room integrated and room and bypass or rumen undergraded protein.
- [22:47]
Weston Hendricks
Yes, sir.
- [22:48]
Augustus Sexton
And you talk about the proteins and that in the rumen, what do you think is the best way in terms of feeding for cattle to gain efficiently? Is that feeding them every 12 hours or 24 hours. And how does clean water affect that as well?
- [23:06]
John de Klerk
Yeah, I'm glad you asked that, Augustus. I'll tell you that clean water is, I think, the most important nutrient. It is without question the most important nutrient in cattle. And if we want to maximize intake and we want to maximize cattle eating and gaining, they got to have clean water. So there's a couple different reasons here. So water is going to regulate bodily functions. So if a calf is. If the water is dirty, if the water is too hot, he's only drinking 70% of the water he needs. His body is only going to function at 70%. He's only going to gain at 70%. Obviously, for those of us that are looking at show steers, you know, majority of muscle is water. So the last thing I want to do is get him dehydrated. What I've always noticed, too, when you go to shows, you hear a lot of people tell you they like their calf's not eating in a show. Well, nine times out of ten, the genesis of that problem is they're not drinking water. They don't like the taste of the water there. And if they're not drinking water, they're not going to eat. So that is going to be the most important nutrient that we look at there. I'm a big believer when it comes to feeding cattle. I like feeding them twice a day. I just think you reduce the risk of metabolic acidosis and problems by having them overeat too fast when you feed them once a day. So to be honest with you, I really think if we can feed them twice a day, that's going to be just a little easier on their rumen. You know, we've got a lot of products at Purina that are kind of, we call, like, intake modifiers, and you can put it in a cell feeder, and it modifies the way they eat to eat, like six or seven small snacks a day instead of one or two big meals. Because if you think about it, cattle are naturally programmed to graze grass throughout the day. Before we got them in, we started feeding them the grain to get them to grow. Cattle just naturally were eating a little bit of grass throughout the day, but they weren't eating just everything in one big meal. Those cattle, they're probably pretty similar to you guys and I. We got Thanksgiving coming up here, okay? And I'll bet there's been a day or two where you guys got just plumped up on pumpkin pie and turkey and ate way too much. And I'll Bet neither of you guys got home and said, man, I feel great. I'm gonna go build some fence. You know, I feel terrible. I'm gonna go lay underneath the shade tree and just, you know, I must lay on the couch here. I guess cow is probably gonna lay underneath the shade tree. But we feed them once a day and they eat a lot. We can overwhelm the buffering potential of the rumen. That can cause some bloating, that can drop the rumen ph to where we actually kill off some of the bugs that are doing that digestion. So the more meals I can give them, the better. So I would tell you to start with two. I think if you ever notice if you read some of these, like supplements that you can buy that are supposed to help with bloat, they'll tell you, feed this and maybe try to feed your calf three or four times a day instead of, you know, once or twice. Honestly, if you just feed them three or four times a day, you're probably also going to reduce the amount of bloat they have just because if you're not, you know, overwhelming the buffering capabilities there of the rumen. So, yeah, I would say, I guess if we can eat them, feed them twice a day, that's going to be more beneficial than once.
- [26:02]
Weston Hendricks
I want to know your thoughts about chop tay and feeding those to show heifers or even show steers, the logic behind it and why it works so well rather than just regular round bale hay or flake of hay.
- [26:16]
John de Klerk
Yeah. So, you know, I think the thing with chop tay is that we generally get just a little higher quality and a little bit more of like a palatability standpoint where they'll eat more. And so when I talk to people, particularly on show heifers, which is, you know, what my nephew show, it's like, I want to feed a hay that is palatable enough where they eat it, but I don't want to feed a hay that's so high quality that they're going to digest too much of them and get chubby chested. So that's kind of a tough needle to thread or it tastes good, but it's maybe not the most calorically dense. You know, on show steers, we probably want something that's palatable and we also want something that's got some calories in it because we're trying to get those steers to kind of chub up and get some finish on them. And we can still do that with the forage. I know lots of Times people maybe don't understand the mechanics of what happens in the room. And we, but we can take forage. If you look at dairy cattle, alright, they produce a high level of, you know, milk fat or butter fat. And we feed them a lot of silage and hay. Because of those forages are turned into acetate which either goes into subcutaneous fat or goes into milk fat. So we still want to make sure that those cattle do it. The other big reason we want hay is because you get some scratch factor. Alright? So I've been on the road this week. We've had a VIP event in Gray Summit, Missouri where our research farm is for Purina. And believe it or not, I maybe wasn't the most judicious in the way that I ate the last couple days. Alright. And I probably ate a few too many sweets and my stomach wasn't feeling very good. So what I do today, I went and got a salad. Alright? That salad is good for my gut health. Well, it turns out for cattle we get that hay, a couple different things happen. One, we get the scratch factor. It actually scratches amongst the rumen wall and that causes the rumen to contract. Okay. And by contracting, that's going to kind of mix everything up in the rumen. It's going to physically digest that hay. It's going to kind of keep the rumen in the right shape. It is. And then hay requires those cattle to chew it a lot. So in order for cattle to swallow hay or feed or anything else, they need to, they need to put some saliva in there. So they got to, they basically got to get it to about 75 to 85% moisture in order to swallow it.
- [28:22]
Augustus Sexton
Alright.
- [28:22]
John de Klerk
It's kind of the same thing with like the saltine cracker challenge. Like you can't eat more than six saltine crackers in a minute because you just run out of saliva. Well, the great thing about cattle is that their saliva has got sodium bicarbonate in it. So if you've ever heard anybody tell you your calf is bloating, you need to feed baking soda. Well, baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. That is a buffer that helps in the rumen. So anytime they eat hay, they got to salivate a lot. They got to put a lot of saliva in that hay to swallow it. Well, that's more of that buffer, more sodium bicarbonate I'm getting in the rumen which is going to keep that rumen ph in a more optimal range where I'm not going to kill off some of those bugs. So by chopping the hay, it seems like we increase the palatability. If we increase the palatability, they eat more hay, that's going to be more saliva, they're producing more scratch factor to where we're going to, you know, keep that rumen going the right way. Kind of just like me eating a salad. It's good for my stomach, it's good for gut health, it's good for those cattle. And so by chopping up that hay as opposed to round hay that that works out. And particularly like round bales of hay, that outer shell of the bale is just, you know, it's usually going to be kind of rained on or even if you got net wrap on it, it's just not going to be the same quality. It seems like by chopping the hay we can kind of get a little bit more of a good mix all the way through and we'll actually get more usage out of the hay.
- [29:37]
Augustus Sexton
Awesome. So another thing I wanted to ask you. What's your thoughts about melatonin and is there a level where you can maximize out the melatonin to a point that you're hurting feed conversion and go ahead and answer that. And then after that, what's the best way to feed melatonin? Is it through feeding it or through implants or different way?
- [30:00]
John de Klerk
So I'll tell you Gustus, I'm not a. That probably be more of a question for an endocrinologist, somebody that really studies hormone balance there quite a bit. Obviously I believe melatonin works. I think the data's pretty clear. Uh, you know, to me I think you could probably get away doing it either direction, feeding it or implanting. Uh, just as long as you've got a good regimen. Uhm, if you can make sure that they're eating the right amount and the right dose every day, that's probably more beneficial than an implant. Because if implants traditionally have a larger payout up front and then they'll kind of. The payout probably lessens over time. So you're going to release more of that implant up front than what you are through the end of the period. And so I think if you got cattle with a good appetite, maybe you're feeding them together or you got a good eater, you can get along really well by feeding melatonin because you probably can regulate the dose a little bit better every day. If I got a cat that's kind of a finicky eater and maybe I'm worried about boy, he's one of them ones just going to tip over his pan. He's going to, you know, kind of just probably not clean it up. I might be better with just an implant. So I would say that's a case by case scenario. Obviously, most of the time we think about just this me kind of spit balling here. So usually when we give melatonin, it's going to signal to that animal that the days are getting shorter and that we're going into the winter. So theoretically, those cattle should want to eat more because they should be wanting to put on somewhat of a winter coat. So I would anticipate that you maybe would get a slight increase in terms of intake. So I'd have to research it before I probably gave you the full answer.
- [31:36]
Augustus Sexton
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- [32:04]
Weston Hendricks
Yes, sir. Hey, I love it. That's all that matters is honesty. My next question would be, is, like, how effective are liquid joint supplements? And it's something you, you might know. I, there's, I want to know if there's a difference between like, hyaluronic acid versus, like, let's say an actual feed supplement. Optiwise, it's become pretty popular now. And with that said, like, that supplement's directed towards tight pastures and tendons, but is it more related towards supplements that we could use? And does that also affect, like. Okay, so what I've heard and talked to with several people is corn literally pulls in tendons and makes tight pasterns. Is it the cause of hyaluronic acid and too much or is it the cause of eating too much corn? And how does that affect versus using, let's say, a liquid joint supplement versus Optiwise?
- [33:04]
John de Klerk
Yeah. So I would tell you that pasterns are really tough to deal with. Right. I, I'm, I'll tell. I, I'm not one of those guys that when I judge a show, I really don't get too tough on pastures. I look at their angles. We've all had a perfectly sound calf that goes to show and they, you know, whether it's a feed imbalance and maybe they're not eating right there and they get a mineral imbalance and they're gonna knuckle in their pasture or I think a lot of it's just comfort. You know, when cattle get in the show ring, half the time they're kind of like maybe trying to turn and look at the judge or look at the crowd. And as a consequence they're probably just not the most sure footed as they sit down. So they're just naturally maybe going to want to knuckle their pasture and they're just not kind of getting out there and pushing and planting. So I've never been a person that puts a ton of emphasis on that. The frustrating thing is that pasturing seems to be about the only structural thing that every judge can see. You know, it doesn't matter where you're at, everybody can tell if they knuckle their pasture. And so sometimes I think there's an oversized influence on that. I'll tell you, I get to work with ranches with north of 10,000 cows. I've never seen a cow break down because their pasture wasn't squishy enough or was too tight. I've seen a lot of cows in big environments. I was way out in west Texas, in New Mexico last week where they're running three cows per section. This one ranch had just south of 75,000 acres and they had 330 cows. I'll tell you what, there's a cow in there, there was really tight pasturing. She was weaned off a big calf and was bred back. So II guess to me I get a little suspect when people put too much emphasis on that. I think like all those supplements that you talk, there is anecdotal data. I talk to people that I really respect that feed a lot of show cattle and they'll say, hey, this stuff works out really well. Uhm, sometimes they'll say that there's some diminishing response to that, that you can maybe overdo it. Uhm, I don't want to comment on too much just because I don't have a ton of experience with that personally. But what I'll tell you is what's really tough for me about any of those supplements that you talk about or any phytogenic compounds or probiotics. Prebiotics is sometimes there's good data that suggests that complex or that compound is gonna work. But the company's not gonna disclose how concentrated the dose is that they're putting in. And so that's really what makes a big difference. I could maybe find a study in Europe or somewhere where they found a positive effect But I don't know if the company is going to put it in a concentrated enough dose to where cattle are going to do it because unfortunately sometimes that concentrated dose gets so expensive that they feel like they can't sell it, so they might water it down. So again, I would tell you to probably err on the side of somebody that's feeding a few more of those show steers than I am. But there's, there's some science behind some of those cup products that say that there, there should be some efficacy. But you know, it's probably going to come down to the dose and the duration, what kind of response you're going to see.
- [35:54]
Augustus Sexton
You know, and one thing that I love how you said when you're judging shows you don't put a ton of influence on pasterns and that. And you back it up with real world data from looking at cow herds. And yeah, you see a cow who's kind of tight in her pasterns and guess what? She's weaning off a big stout calf and that's what matters. I feel like in the, in the show world sometimes we get so sidetracked we make up one thing and then try and run with it and maximize it out to the fullest extent. But just look at what cows are supposed to be like and that's how we should be making them. Just try to make them as extreme as possible. Yes. But not getting distracted on things that are completely useless. So I really love how you tied that all together there.
- [36:37]
John de Klerk
Well, thanks, Augustus. I think it's interesting we get all these DS deers running around now because we were so worried about them being tough in their pasture. Right. That we made them squishy footed and we've got some, some issues the other way. So I think the thing in the cattle business is pretty much anytime you try to maximize one thing, you're going to create other problems. And so I believe in balance and trying to optimize as opposed to maximize anyone trait.
- [37:04]
Augustus Sexton
Absolutely, sir.
- [37:06]
Weston Hendricks
So with that said, I'd like to know what are some of the differences and similarities between the real world and the show ring. It literally lined up perfectly. But I also want to know how closely related those two are or if they should be.
- [37:20]
John de Klerk
I would tell you the one benefit that we've got right now in the cattle industry compared to our contemporaries is I do believe the cattle show ring is it's probably not as close as it needs to be to the real world, but it is closer to the real world than what swine and sheep and goats are right. The thing about the cattle industry is you can still go show a steer to a guy like Kevin Jensen, who makes a living selling commercial bulls. And you know, he's probably going to go out there and look at those steers through the lens of this animal has got to be able to, you know, represent the kind of cattle that thrive in everyday production setting. You know, some of my favorite judges to go watch, judge a Scott Schockey, you know, a Ryan Rathman, a Jack Ward, like based on having, you know, roles in academia or industry where they're probably trying to blend together those two different worlds and saying, hey, the heifer, the winds doesn't have to be the best commercial cow, but she better be good enough that she could thrive and pencil out as a profitable commercial cow or the steer that wins. You know, we all know there's pageantry, and I'm the same way too. And I'm judging. I want to find the one that's the most unique, the one that's the hardest to build. But at the same time, I don't want to push the envelope so much. So we get an animal that's just not representative of the industry that, you know, I work in and I certainly love to work in. So I think in the cattle side, we are closer to the mark than what we probably are elsewhere. You know, when vertical integration happened in the swine industry back there in the 90s, you know, it used to be those guys who are raising hogs, you know, they would sell commercial bores. You know, they were selling hogs that were still had commercial viability. And so that kept the show ring a little bit more in check. And I think on the cattle side, the fact that we still got seed stock producers, we still got people with more of an industry tie, you know, that that's probably keeping us from going a little bit too far to the extreme. Now I'm sure that we can all pinpoint and I mean, I'd be just as guilty of it as show anyway. You look at a Coke bottlenecked one that's got no real width and probably been pretty, you know, not as realistic in terms of just performance and maybe goes out in the real world and would just absolutely melt away or wouldn't thrive. You know, there's. There's definitely ailments that we see in the show steer industry that's obviously would not hold up great in a feedlot setting. But I still believe there's. There's not saying that every judge is. But there's enough of the judges judging shows that, you know, have got a real world background where they'll keep us a little bit more kind of in check, where thankfully, we haven't gone off as far maybe as what a couple of the other species have.
- [39:54]
Weston Hendricks
And so just you bringing up just like evaluating livestock for what they are, what they need to be, or how they could be efficient in a real world setting, you become such a face in the industry for being a judge and evaluating livestock and such. I'd like you to go through the process of how to improve from being a collegiate student doing this competitively to going on the mic in a real world setting.
- [40:21]
John de Klerk
Yeah, so that's a great question. Obviously, in college, yeah, it's a totally different experience. So the great thing about college and going through livestock judging is get a lot of reps, you're going to get to see a lot of livestock. You get the opportunity to listen to some great evaluators. You know, I think the world of your coach, I think he's a fantastic evaluator and he's somebody that's going to break down livestock at a high level and you're going to learn a lot from him. And I also think the great thing too is for me, like, I judge all species, but primarily cattle. But I would tell you, I got a lot better at judging cattle when I could truly break down and read the skeleton of sheep and hogs and goats. You'll see some commonalities and some similarities. And the nice thing about the industry, the show industry now, is I really believe there's probably never been a time in our history where the show animals are more in harmony. You know, we want really wide, stout market animals that can still motor. We kind of want them maybe middle of the road to, you know, kind of middle of the road in terms of frame size on the. On the steers, barrows, weathers. If we transition to the female side, we probably want our heifers a click or two bigger. So they're probably moderate plus, but we still want the same attributes in terms of maybe not as musk muscle. We want them very impressive from a balance and a structure standpoint, want them to have some bone and be aesthetically pleasing. So there is quite a bit of harmony across the show industry right now. So I think that's going to help you out. And so you get a lot of reps judging in college. You're going to get to see a lot of animals, you get to break them down, you get to go to some of the biggest operations in the country, you get more comfortable on the mic. You know, I know some seed stock producers that I think do just a fantastic job judging in terms of evaluating, but sometimes they have a little tougher time explaining to the crowd why they arrived at that decision. And so from a collegiate standpoint, you're going to get a lot of reps. And even if you're not winning reasons, you're just gonna get so much more comfortable breaking down livestock and great detail that, you know that's going to benefit you there as well. What I think the biggest thing to me is is that, you know, we've all showed cattle before and we're all, you know, I'll tell you, when my nephews get beat. There's been plenty of times I've been disappointed, I've been upset. You know, we all get guilty of being barn blind. But I think the most important thing as you make that transition from collegiate judging, where when you're judging in college, you are trying to place them based on what you believe a committee is going to do. All right? So sometimes that can maybe hurt your confidence a little bit. Right? Because you're maybe not necessarily always doing what you want to do. You're kind of doing what your coach told you to do or what you believe is the right way for that day or for that contest to. Once you get into a judging a show, I think confidence is absolutely supremely important. I think sometimes when we look at some of these young people, there's a lot of young people that have got a tremendous amount of talent, but if they go into show and they start second guessing themselves, it becomes pretty easy just to use the, you know, the cat that's been winning or to use the family that wins the most. Right. Because you can kind of just talk yourself into. And I think lots of times people assume maybe there's something nefarious going on there that this. This family, you know, got to judge. And I don't believe that's the case. I just think in most instances, it's maybe just somebody that goes out there and they're not just 100% sure. And so they're probably going to lean on maybe some of those other external factors where, you know, the best judges operate with a high degree of confidence. And they're the best. The judges, because of, you know, they've kind of got that cockiness and belief that, like, hey, I read them as good or better than anybody, all right? I don't care what anybody else said. I don't care if this one's been winning or that one's been winning, or this one cost x amount, or I've never seen that kid before. That's the best calf. I'm going to use him to win. And so I think as you make that transition, that's going to be really important just in terms of lining up the livestock. One thing I would tell you is in college judging, we teach our students to evaluate the negatives. You need to find the flaws of all those animals, because that's going to help you place them. Generally, the ones with the least amount of flaws are going to win. The ones with the most flaws go down. That is a pretty big tenet of collegiate judging. When you get to start judging shows, please do not sound like you bring out every single area that animal could be better, all right? Because for those people that are making a living raising those livestock, I promise you, it's a lot easier to point flaws at those cattle than it is to make them that good. All right? And particularly the benchmark for eliteness is so high in the cattle industry. We've got to make them so progressive in bone and stoutness and look all right, they're not all going to be perfect. And so I think anytime you go in, particularly to a junior show, you want to make sure to be very complimentary. You want to brag up the livestock, you want to brag up the kids, and you want to do everything you can to temper, to soften when you are going to maybe point out where an animal could be better. I think that the common theme out there amongst most, you know, people that attend shows is that younger evaluators are way too hard on their livestock, that they don't like their animals, that they don't like cattle. They don't like anything. And I'll tell you, I myself was guilty of that. When I first started judging shows, I was so adamant. I want everybody to think that, hey, I see them, I see everything, right? And so I wanted to make sure that I broke down every single place they were at. And I probably sounded like I didn't like any of the livestock when there was a bunch of them, I liked a bunch. So probably err on the side of being positive, particularly as you go down. Later in the class, I think about my nephews. You know, they're really into sports. And, you know, lots of times these jackpot shows, they think, okay, we're competing against this jackpot show next week. Or San Antonio thinks they're competing against Houston or Austin. Well, no, you're competing against softball and basketball and baseball and football and all these other sports these kids can do. And as a judge, if you go out there and you maybe get a little bit too hard on some of those youngsters, they're just likely to say, hey, I don't want to miss my travel baseball team anymore. I'm not going to show next year. And we've got such a small community in the showing industry, so I think it's really important that we try to brag up and be very selective in our criticism and that we don't, you know, maybe get a little bit too hard on livestock. Because if none of them are perfect, the good Lord and all of his wisdom, he's going to keep us all striving for perfect, so he's not going to let us make the perfect one. And so we got to keep that in mind as we're judging shows.
- [46:48]
Weston Hendricks
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- [47:09]
Augustus Sexton
Absolutely. Very, very sound advice for young evaluators. And I myself have gotten asked to judge shows or help. Other guys who did get the call to judge shows are asking me to come along with them and help teach me. And that that's definitely good advice. So staying on the topic of judging more. So the livestock judging, I want to hear, you've been the coach in that, and now you're also getting to help with putting on the contest and being an official. When you're sitting in the room and listening to kids, what are some things that you. That really hit you as strengths and weaknesses? When you're listening to a couple hundred sets a day, what are those things that stand out to you?
- [47:54]
John de Klerk
Yes, that's a great question. You know, it's an experience that you wish all the students could go through, right? Just so that they could hear it. And, you know, as a coach, there's lots of times things I would stress to my judging students, and I felt like maybe they didn't understand. And then, like, getting to be on this side, I'm like, man, I really wish that some of those kids are just uber talented and really, really successful that they could go through that experience. I think a lot of that would probably help them out. What I would tell you Is I think in livestock judging there are probably more well trained students today. Like, there's probably more students that go through good judging programs where they got a coach that is teaching them how to flow and present. Maybe come up with terminology that sounds kind of unique and innovative. And so, you know, those, those can make the enjoyability of reasons fun to listen to. It really can, it can keep things lively more than anything. You just, you want, you want students to be accurate. Like in my chair, I was fortunate that I always had a pretty big vocabulary. In fact, maybe a little bit too big for my own good sometimes. And I could probably over talk some, some folks or maybe use some terms that weren't the most easy to understand. But I really do believe like, as I'm like listening to reasons, I mean, accuracy is just the number one thing that I'm looking for. And I believe that we spend all this time worrying about our presentation and the idea we want to present our sets in a way that your accuracy gets noticed. All right, I had some kids, I think of one individual, she was as dead accurate as anybody had had, but she'd get a little monotone in the reasons room. And because of that, I always thought, I'm like, there's nobody that's gonna read Livestock better than you. We just gotta make sure your presentation is unique enough that that reasons taker just doesn't naturally doze off, right? So I'm a millennial, I'm an old guy. And the average millennials attention span is six minutes.
- [49:45]
Augustus Sexton
All right.
- [49:46]
John de Klerk
I can imagine your generation, it's that much shorter. And it's just based on, you know, none of us are sitting at home with just, you know, if you're watching tv, you got three screens going on at the same time, right? You're on your phone, you're watching tv, maybe got the iPad or a laptop going on, right? So being, having your undivided attention is really tough in today's kind of fast paced world. And it's probably made our attention span of reasons takers or reasons listeners that much shorter as well. So you got to find something that kind of makes yourself stand out. So I was kind of a big believer in presentation that like, hey, you either want to be one extreme or the other. You know, for guys, I want them to have like a deep booming voice where they came in. They sound really, you know, authoritative and kind of knew what they were doing. Or you wanted to be conversational, upbeat and happy. You know, somebody that came in and sounded like you had a passion for livestock. Just like maybe that reasons Taker did when he was, you know, 20 years old. And it's not necessarily because I believe those presentations are going to necessarily gain you extra points. It's just so that you stand out from the crowd. So hopefully your accuracy is rewarded. So, you know, when I listen I hear some pretty cool terms. I generally don't put any emphasis on terminology. I think a lot of officials do. If I hear a kid say some term that I think is not wise or is not really great, I just usually chalk it up to him like ah, his coach probably just doesn't know what he's doing and let him say that. Right. I really don't get too worked up over that. I'm just trying to reward the kids that see the livestock the best because I believe those are the traits that are most applicable. You know, I had some teams that did not win Louisville and you know, there were times that I kind of thought like maybe I should just play the game a little bit better. Teach the kids how to just, you know, place four of them for a contest. Not go out of my way to break him down and to describe them so much. And you know, that was probably the best decision I ever made, was not coaching for a contest. Because so many of my students, I'm so absolutely proud of them to get to watch the success they've had in the industry since they were in, you know, through livestock judging. And there's no guarantee the best team's going to win anyway. So I think it makes a. It's kind of a short sighted decision to try to coach only for a contest. I think it's more important to teach kids to evaluate livestock. So if they want to go home and raise cattle or raise livestock or if they want to buy livestock for their kids that they can be competitive. That's way more of a skill set that's applicable to the rest of their life than just hoping you teach them how to judge four and move on down the road. So as I'm listening, I'm probably always going to be an accuracy guy but you know, trying to be a little bit more unique from your teammates. Some of these smaller contests you go to where you get to listen to, you know, all 20 kids that went to Blinn or 20 kids who went to AM or Tech or whatnot. If you guys all say the same thing, it gets a little bit redundant at the end of the day. But more than anything else, just accuracy presenting yourself in a way that you don't kind of blend in with Everybody else is imperative.
- [52:38]
Weston Hendricks
Yes, sir.
- [52:39]
Augustus Sexton
And you talk about how, I mean, you didn't have kids that won Louisville and that. I mean, yes, that's heartbreaking as a coach, because you spent the last year pouring all the knowledge you have into them. But I have a quote right here on my wall that says, don't let a contest define who you are. Let the way you live your life do that. And how you're just saying, that's so true.
- [53:03]
John de Klerk
Oh, yeah, for sure. And, I mean, I had teams that won Louisville, I had teams that didn't win Louisville, and I don't know if there's really any difference. There is no difference, at least in terms of the quality of the students and what they've been able to accomplish afterwards. And, you know, the great thing about livestock judging is in the teams that I've had that have been very successful. It's how they respond to adversity. You know, we kind of live in a world today where whenever somebody gets kind of punched in the mouth or when a bad time befalls them, their first instinct is to kind of play the victim or to make excuses and to feel sorry for themselves. You know, the great teams that I coach, whether they won Louisville or not, were the kids that when they got home, they didn't make excuses about the officials. They didn't make excuses about, you know, the other teams. They said, okay, we got beat. We need to be better. What do we need to go to work? All right. It was like, we're not going to feel sorry for ourselves. We're going to get better. And I'd imagine if you look in the showing livestock industry, you see those families that are really, really successful. You know, they're the ones that when they get beat at a show, they're not running around talking about the judge being, you know, not knowing what he was doing, or the judge being political or this or that. They're saying, okay, you know, we did something that put ourselves in a position to lose. What can we do? Picking them, feeding them, managing them. To remedy that situation and use that as a learning experience. You know, showing cattle, livestock judging is one of the only experiences that you're probably going to get in life where you get actual feedback. You know, when you go apply for your first job and you interview, they're not going to tell you, we didn't like this, this, and this and this, why we didn't hire you. They're either just going to call you and tell you they didn't hire, or a lot of times they don't even tell you didn't hire. They're just going to move on. Right. And so any time in life where you can get constructive criticism, I think it is so imperative the way that you respond. And the teams that I've been proud of, the teams that I've been very fortunate to get coach, are those teams that, you know, when maybe they were faced with adversity, they went home and they worked harder, they doubled their efforts. They didn't feel sorry for themselves. And that's why those students have been wildly successful in the industry, whether it's raising livestock or in their professional careers. You know, it's not hard to tell when you're coaching what kids are going to be the one that you want to be on their team moving forward. And some of those kids have made big names for themselves.
- [55:24]
Weston Hendricks
Yes, sir. Well, so you're talking about, I'd rather build you up so you can have a better future outside of judging collegiately rather than see you win a few contests. Right. And so with that said, what I'd like to know is once they're out of college and they get a phone call, hey, I need you to come judge a show, or I'd like you to come judge this show, or even, let's say you're. You get the opportunity to judge a Texas major, how important is it in your mind that they pick the correct and right kind of whatever livestock they're evaluating rather than having a preference of their type and kind? Or is it even okay to have a preference of that type and kind like some different judges do? I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong. I just like to know your preference on it.
- [56:10]
John de Klerk
Yeah, I would say that I'm the type of person that I don't know if I've got necessarily defined type because of my. I believe my philosophy evolves over time based on my experience. You know, obviously, I, you know, we raised some cattle back home and, you know, I'm. That's going to inform what I'm doing. Which kind of the heifers that we've been showing that have done maybe some win in which one of those are actually generating and getting the job done. I'll tell you the barrier for entry and how expensive these show cattle get these days. You kind of got to get the ones that will give you some return on investment or else it becomes a pretty poor investment. So that's something that's going to inform me. But the biggest thing that informs what I do is what I do for a living. Right. And I get to work with some of the biggest seed stock producers, cow calf producers, some of the most progressive cattlemen in the country. And so it would be really unwise for me to be somebody that said, okay, when I was 25, I decided this was going to be my kind and I'm just not going to change. And I do think every now and again that that'll. That'll hurt you because of. There are people that'll say, you know, like, well, that guy's harder to follow. And it's because of, you know, naturally, like as a person of a scientist and a person that is evolving over time as I get new data and as the cattle industry has changed. Right. When I was younger, we were docking hot carcass weights at 950 or 1000 pounds. Right now it's not 1100 pounds. I mean, they're the cattle that we're harvesting in the industry right now that are making the Most money are 1600 pounds. All right? So when I was a kid, you know, they had to weigh 13, 20 to win a show. You know, now it's no problem with them being in the 14's I'd have no problem using this year the 1500 pounds. Like, I really think weight is absolutely irrelevant. And that has evolved over time because the industry has signaled that's the kind of cattle that we want. So I'm probably not the type of person that does a type and kind. I think we can all probably point to maybe a judge or two that does have a very definitive type. And lots of times they get to judge a little bit more just because everybody knows what to take him. You know, when, when, you know, I think of one guy that judges, you know, multiple species in Texas, and, you know, he's a very hittable person and I think a great evaluator. And I think that he's a guy that everybody knows what to take him. So even if that guy's not your favorite judge, if we're all sitting down and maybe come up with a list of five people to judge a show, everybody's probably got him at least third or fourth because they know what steer to take him, they know what market lane to take him. So I think you could probably go either way. I've always been this way when it comes to livestock judging, too. I like everybody to kind of make their own type. You know, I think there's some coaches that when it comes to reasons, they want every kid to sound the exact same on their team or have the same style. And when you do that, all you really are doing is taking the kid that naturally has that style and you're making him your best kid, then you're making every other kid, you know, 80% of their natural potential. You're making them a. You know, they're never going to reach their full potential if they don't have ownership in what they're doing. Like, if your person likes to be intelligent, you need to be intelligent reasons. If you're a person likes to be conversational or slangy, whatever it is, you need to have that bent because you're going to take more ownership and you're going to work harder on that style. I think it's the same thing when you're judging a show too. If you're somebody that says, hey, I like them opened up and stout and they just got to be sound enough, absolutely go for it. If you're a type of person that's trying to pick a most complete, to least compete complete and realize that, hey, they're not always going to look the same, right? You know, like the two teams are going to make the finals in the college football, you know, playoffs. They're probably not going to be polar, you know, spinning images of each other, right? We could have a great defensive team that runs the ball all day and we might have a wide open offense that airs it out. Their defense is just a. Okay, but they're the best two teams in football, even though they look totally different. And sometimes we can see that in judging livestock. In my mind too, if you're trying to go out there and pick the complete ones, they might not have the same exact attributes, but their totals weigh together to be the best. So I think, you know, to me, I talked a lot about trying to be confident as a judge. I think you judge with more confidence when you're doing what you want to do. I think you're less prone to second guess yourself. I remember one of the best advice that I ever got when I was younger was Jim Williams. And I'm actually up here in Louisville because Jim is getting inducted in the Saddle and Sirloin hall of Fame. And I remember Jim saying that if you ever get into a show and there's one of those pairs that you're back and forth on and you can't decide which way to go, he said, pick the one that you liked first because chances are when they first walked in, there was one you liked better. And you spent the last 10 minutes trying to convince yourself to use the other one. And if you can't, if you don't have enough data to say the other one's just definitively better. Just go with the one that you like the best. And so I think anything we can do to encourage students to take ownership of their type and judge with a little bit more confidence, I actually think that's going to make that the show ring a little bit better. So I would tell you, Weston, you got a type, go with your type. If you're a person that kind of going to kind of evolve, like me, based on new facts and data and maybe trying to pick the complete one, even though they're not always going to be the same, you know, do that. So just kind of do you just be authentic to you? Right. Everybody else is taken. There's no reason to try to be a version of somebody else. If I try to, you know, be a carbon copy of Brandon Callis or Ryan Rathman, I'm just going to be a generic knockoff of those guys. So I've got to kind of be my own guy if I'm going to maximize my own potential.
- [61:20]
Weston Hendricks
Yes, sir. I completely agree with that and everything that you said there.
- [61:26]
Augustus Sexton
Absolutely. This has certainly been a pleasure. As we start to wrap things up, what I want to hear is what's a favorite quote or Bible verse that you like to go by?
- [61:38]
John de Klerk
Yeah, a lot of quotes. So my favorite Bible verse is Romans 12:21. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good boy quotes her that. That's probably a tough one for me. I'll just stick with Romans 12:21. That. That's a big one. That's one I think about a lot, you know, particularly just to take the high road, you know. Like, I know that if you read like, you know, Mark Twain had a quote that said, like, hate, hatred is an acid that corrodes the vessel that carries it far more than anything you can pour it on. And I think that kind of goes hand in hand with that. Romans 12:21. You know, if you got somebody you don't like and, you know, you just let them get underneath your skin, they're kind of changing the way that you act around the people you like. If there's somebody that you give them that power, all right, they're just going to make you miserable. All right now around your friends and your family, you're in a bad mood because there's somebody that you hate or somebody that you don't like, as opposed to just, you know, kind of overcoming evil with good and living in a manner that doesn't reflect that and being somebody that sees the world more Christ, like, where Jesus obviously loves us all. And that's the reason that, you know, I believe when you get to see people that are good Christians, they've got this inner peace and happiness that is hard to put into words. So I'll say Romans 12:21. That's my favorite Bible verse.
- [63:08]
Weston Hendricks
Yes, sir. I love it. And if anybody who has listened to us previously, listen to the episode of with Brandon Callis, we talked about being competitive in Christ, like, at the same time. And I think that's what makes the average turn into elite.
- [63:27]
Augustus Sexton
Absolutely.
- [63:28]
Weston Hendricks
And with that said, we always ask this at the end of every episode. It gets me fired up. But, John, I'd like to know what empowers you as a person, caretaker, operator, or even a customer to be better than who you were before.
- [63:42]
John de Klerk
Yeah, so that's actually another good quote too, that there's no nobility in being better than your fellow man. True nobility is being better than your former self. And that's something that I try to strive to do every single day. You know, I've been very blessed to get to work with some outstanding individuals, both as a coach and college. And then what I get to do now at Purina and get to work with some great opportunities here. You know, since I was a younger kid, I'll tell you what, I grew up in a commercial cow calf operation in Illinois. And it was not blessed to have, like, a big name background. I wasn't blessed to have, you know, a big, huge operation to go back home and run. But for me, what has always been my driving force is I want to make a big impact on the livestock industry. And so anytime in my life when I've been faced with adversity, I try to stay myopically focused on what can I do to leave my mark on the cattle business or on the livestock industry. And so in order to do that, you have to have continual improvement in the world we live in today. Standing still is the same as moving backwards. And so I really believe that, you know, that's something that gets me up out of bed in the morning. That's something that drives me to. Read more. To stay on top of the latest science, to stay current with the industry, and to push myself to be the best version of my possible self I can be and to try to be better than I was yesterday.
- [65:14]
Weston Hendricks
That's awesome. Standing still is just the same as going backwards. That's going somewhere in my room. Sorry.
- [65:24]
John de Klerk
Glad I could help.
- [65:28]
Weston Hendricks
So we typically like to end with the scripture and Augustus usually gets on with that. And before I before he continues, I would like to just say, John, we appreciate you coming on and taking time out of your day. I know you're a busy individual and we appreciate all that you do and mentoring others as well.
- [65:46]
John de Klerk
Man, it's been a lot of fun. I appreciate you guys having me on.
- [65:49]
Weston Hendricks
Yes sir.
- [65:51]
Augustus Sexton
Today's scripture reading is Proverbs 22:1. It says a good name is more desirable than great riches. To be esteemed is better than silver or gold.
- [66:04]
Weston Hendricks
I think that follows along with everything we've said throughout the last 20, 25 minutes for sure. So with that, John, thank you for coming on and joining us. Is a great conversation. We give you the best condolences and blessings moving forward and can't wait to see you down the road. With that said, that's empowering you with John de Clerk. You'll have a great day.
- [66:32]
Quinn Hartley
Make sure to follow us on Facebook and Instagram empowerupod for episode sneak peeks and merchandise updates.
- [66:42]
Augustus Sexton
But also go take a look at our new website, empowerupod.com where you'll find our team's story, sponsor updates and much more. Once again, we just want to thank you all for tuning in and please follow us on Spotify or Apple podcast and leave a five star rating. If you like what you hear, have a blessed day.
- [67:01]
Weston Hendricks
Sa.