Podcast Summary: Energy Gang – "Electric vehicles create problems for the grid. Could they also help solve them? The plan to turn EVs into reliable grid infrastructure"

Air date: January 6, 2026
Host: Ed Crooks (Wood Mackenzie)
Guests:

• Amy Myers Jaffe (NYU)
• Apoorv Bhargava (Co-founder and CEO, WeaveGrid)

Overview

This episode explores the challenges and opportunities presented by the growing adoption of electric vehicles (EVs) for electricity grids – particularly how EVs, often seen as a source of strain (“grid problems”), might be repurposed as an important asset to grid reliability and flexibility. The discussion dives into the specifics of distributed energy resource management, “virtual power plants,” the business model and technology of WeaveGrid, and the broader question of reshaping grid infrastructure and customer behavior in the accelerating energy transition.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Grid’s Infrastructural Strain and Resource Gaps

• Opening context: The grid faces “huge affordability challenges” as demand grows from sectors like EVs and data centers, and there simply isn’t enough capital/human resource to keep up with required build-out. (00:00)
  • Quote: “Today we do not have the capital, we do not have the resources, we don't have the human capital, frankly to go build out the grid as much as all the load growth needs are pushing us to get to.” – Apoorv Bhargava [00:00]

2. Apoorv Bhargava’s Journey and Motivation

• Apoorv’s background as an “energy lifer,” shaped by global experiences, early exposure to energy geopolitics, and climate change concerns.
  • Grew up on Cyprus, observing how “geopolitics meets security meets energy independence.”
  • Influences: Studied under Amy Myers Jaffe at Rice University.
  • EV and grid transformation emerged from a sense of opportunity and necessity. [03:12-04:45]

3. WeaveGrid: Vision and Platform

• Initial Vision:

  • Founded in 2018 at Stanford, Apoorv and co-founder identified EV battery “flexibility” as a major, untapped grid resource.
  • Recognized utilities lacked granular visibility into EVs and their impacts.
  • Core thesis: Transform EVs from “grid liabilities” (due to unmanaged charging) into “grid assets.” [04:55-06:53]
  • Quote: “These are huge batteries on wheels that are increasingly being attached to the grid. But the reality is utilities had very little to no visibility...” – Apoorv Bhargava [04:55]

• DERs and Value:

  • DER = Distributed Energy Resource: “batteries, electric vehicles, thermostats,” but not all DERs provide grid value by default.
  • Real value comes from orchestrating, managing, and aggregating these devices (with attention to the customer’s needs and grid’s day-to-day needs, not just in emergencies). [06:58-10:27]
  • Quote: “Just because something is a distributed asset or a distributed or customer owned resource, does not necessarily mean it is providing value.” – Apoorv Bhargava [06:58]

4. DER Platforms and Virtual Power Plants: Definitions and Debates

• “Virtual Power Plant” (VPP) terminology: Apoorv is skeptical about VPP as a descriptor; aggregations of devices offer specific grid values distinct from power plants or classic “demand response.” [10:27-13:41]
  • Noted the problem of overloaded transformers when just a few EVs charge simultaneously in a neighborhood (“four cars overloading a transformer causes a transformer to lose half of its life”).
  • Quote: “It’s neither a true power plant, but it’s actually so much more powerful than a true demand response product.” – Apoorv Bhargava [11:01]
  • Amy agrees on the messy semantics, noting that some “aggregators” do provide firm capacity, especially when they install surplus batteries at the customer site. [13:55]

5. Distribution Grid Visibility and Affordability Risks

• Utilities have excellent visibility at the generation and transmission level, but poor monitoring at the neighborhood/distribution level. [15:52]

  • Aging transformers (average age now 25 years) are particularly at risk with uncoordinated EV charging or back-fed solar.
  • Managing these edge resources well is critical to avoid a looming affordability crisis.

• Trust and Reliability:

  • The solution isn’t to over-procure (pay for “nameplate capacity”) but to deliver a known, reliable amount of grid support from DERs and aggregated devices. [15:52-18:56]
  • Quote: “I want is a firm counting of how much is going to be delivered when I ask for it.” – Apoorv Bhargava [15:52]
  • Successfully changed utility engineers’ attitudes: “I trust this as good as copper.”
  • Quote: “I’ve got engineers at Utilities distribution engineers saying, I trust this as good as copper. I’m good. And that’s very unique.” – Apoorv Bhargava [18:56]

6. Business Model & Technical Details

• WeaveGrid operates as an enterprise SaaS (cloud software) platform for utilities. [19:11]
  • Pulls in diverse, sometimes messy, data (billing, load, SCADA, etc.) to aggregate and dispatch resources with high reliability.
  • Customizable by location—from transformer-by-transformer optimization up to entire utility service territories.
  • Practical examples include charging EVs to absorb excess wind power at night, but optimizing to avoid local overloads (e.g., Boulder, CO). [21:41]

7. Customer Participation, Data, and Trust

• Customers opt-in to utility programs to enable data-sharing (e.g., WeaveGrid connects to automakers’ servers, collects live charging data).
  • EV owners’ primary need is mobility – so energy flexibility solutions must not impair driver experience.
  • Platform expanding beyond EVs to include thermostats, residential batteries, and other home devices—though with caution about “customer friction” in areas like heating/cooling. [23:26-26:12]

8. Control, Human Factors, and Psychology

• Crucial insight: Gaining customer and utility trust is more important than pure technology improvements.
  • “No matter how good the technology is. Unless you can do that job of persuasion, you’re not going to get adoption...”
  • Quality of control is a spectrum—some assets are not controllable, some are highly flexible; understanding this is essential for planners. [32:30]
  • Quote: “The technology is not the issue, to be completely honest. And back to your point of control, I think of control as a spectrum.” – Apoorv Bhargava [32:30]

9. Economics & Business Model: Arbitrage vs. Infrastructure Deferral

• Discussion of “arbitrage” (playing market price swings) vs. providing real infrastructure capacity value.

  • Arbitrage is fleeting; the real, sustainable value is in aggregated DERs displacing or deferring expensive physical upgrades (poles, wires, transformers). [39:28]
  • Quote: “We’re actually trying to aggregate resources on behalf of the utility and actually arbitrage against infrastructure buildout.” – Apoorv Bhargava [39:28]

• Utilities face hard choices on whether to prioritize supplying new data centers vs. residential upgrades, with high stakes for affordability and public/political backlash. [41:29]

10. Scaling DERs and Grid Solutions

• Scaling up from “hundreds of megawatts” now to “even 10+ gigawatts” is faster and more practical than waiting for big technology breakthroughs (like fusion).
  • Maximizing grid utilization (from 25% to 50-60%) is feasible with these platforms, offering enormous value.
  • Key to scaling: Build trust incrementally, moving from pilots to fully-integrated grid programs. [42:52-46:07]
  • Quote: “I think the ability to scale from hundreds of megawatts to even 10 plus gigawatts is far more doable than frankly waiting on some magical fusion...” – Apoorv Bhargava [46:07]

11. The Future: AV Fleets as Grid Assets?

• Can fleets of autonomous vehicles (AVs) offer grid value, flexibly charging/discharging?
  • Mobility needs (“the mobility watt spread”) almost always outweigh power-market value, but in specific cases (substation upgrades avoidance), AV fleets could sell flexibility to utilities. [47:25-50:40]
  • Quote: “What I would say is, as we move to a world of autonomous vehicles, what they’re building essentially is a portfolio of mobility... Is the mobility value of even the option of having your car ready to go, rather than draining it off its batteries, you know, if its battery state of charge, is that option value more than the value of the watt that it can provide?” – Apoorv Bhargava [47:25]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Just because something is a distributed asset...does not necessarily mean it is providing value.”
  – Apoorv Bhargava [06:58]
• “It’s neither a true power plant, but it’s actually so much more powerful than a true demand response product.”
  – Apoorv Bhargava [11:01]
• “We’ve just got to get to reliability. I want utilities to use these resources because they have tremendous potential, but I don’t think that we should ever over promise on these things.”
  – Apoorv Bhargava [42:52]
• “We’re actually trying to aggregate resources on behalf of the utility and actually arbitrage against infrastructure buildout.”
  – Apoorv Bhargava [39:28]
• “The technology is not the issue...it’s also about the trust we’ve been able to build with customers and with utilities.”
  – Apoorv Bhargava [32:30]

Timeline & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00 | Opening problem: grid strain, affordability, and lack of resources | | 03:12 | Apoorv Bhargava’s personal background and the founding of WeaveGrid | | 04:55 | WeaveGrid’s vision: EV batteries as flexible grid assets | | 06:58 | What is a DER? Definitions and the real vs. supposed value | | 10:27 | Virtual Power Plants: what they mean and why the term is messy | | 13:41 | Transformer failures, aggregation, and local infrastructure issues | | 15:52 | The challenge of distribution grid visibility and the need for trust in DERs | | 19:11 | WeaveGrid’s technical architecture and business model explained | | 21:41 | System-wide vs. localized grid management, practical program examples | | 23:26 | Data sharing: how EV owners participate and how the platform expands to new resources | | 26:12 | Integrating other residential devices; trust and limits of customer flexibility (“friction”) | | 32:30 | Trust, persuasion, and human psychology as bigger barriers than technology | | 39:28 | Arbitrage vs. infrastructure deferral – a business model inflection point | | 41:29 | Utilities’ tough choices: data centers vs. cul-de-sac upgrades, politics of ratebase | | 42:52 | Can DER platforms truly scale? Building trust, moving from pilot to program | | 46:07 | The autonomous fleet (AV) question: can AVs operate as mobile VPPs for grid support? | | 47:25 | The "mobility watt spread": in most cases, mobility > grid arbitrage for AV fleets |

Conclusion

This episode highlights the transition from seeing EVs (and other distributed assets) as grid threats to embracing them as reliable, flexible, and valuable grid resources. The conversation makes clear that the path forward depends not only on technological advances, but also on building trust—with customers, with utility planners, and with regulators—grounded in real-world, persistent grid reliability. WeaveGrid’s approach, focusing on granular, distribution-level orchestration, aims to bridge this gap. The scalability of such solutions is seen as crucial, particularly in the face of rapidly growing, data center–driven demand.

The episode closes with a forward-looking discussion about the potential for large, electrified fleets and future grid architectures, emphasizing once again that the real challenge is not technological, but sociotechnical: aligning incentives, maintaining customer experience, and building deep utility trust.

Who should listen:

• Utility planners, DER and VPP technologists, energy transition analysts, grid engineers, EV policy-makers, and anyone interested in the complex intersection of electrification, renewables, consumer behavior, and the physical infrastructure of the electricity system.