How are businesses rethinking energy and sustainability? COP30 starts in Belem as climate action falters

Summary

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Energy Gang Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: How are businesses rethinking energy and sustainability? COP30 starts in Belem as climate action falters
Date: November 11, 2025
Host: Ed Crooks (Vice-Chairman of Energy, Wood Mackenzie)
Guests:

• Susan Uthayakumar (Chief Energy and Sustainability Officer, Prologis)
• Holly Paper (President, Commercial HVAC Americas, Trane Technologies)

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Episode Overview

This episode uses interviews from New York Climate Week to set the stage for COP30 in Belem, Brazil, focusing on whether businesses are pulling back from climate action or forging new, pragmatic paths. With declining enthusiasm for ESG and heightened global energy demand, Ed Crooks seeks insights from two industry leaders—Prologis, a global logistics real estate giant, and Trane Technologies, an HVAC leader integral to data center and building energy use. The conversation centers on business-driven strategies for growth, resilience, and decarbonization amid shifting policy and market signals.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Business Attitudes Toward Climate Action

• Backdrop: Growing sentiment that businesses are de-emphasizing climate commitments, coupled with "ESG backlash".
• Prologis & Trane's Approach: Both assert sustainability is embedded in strategy, not a fading side concern, and connect business resilience and customer need to their climate agendas.

  “Sustainability is the strategy. It's not an offshoot to the strategy.” — Holly Paper (16:59)

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2. Prologis: Energy as a Core Business Driver

(Guest: Susan Uthayakumar)

• Prologis at a Glance: Largest global logistics real estate company, moving 3% of the world’s GDP through 1.3 billion sq ft of facilities in 20 countries.
  [03:42]

  “We move 3% of the world's GDP through our logistics centers.” — Susan Uthayakumar

• Role of Energy in Logistics:

  • Supply chain resilience now depends on energy reliability.
  • Prologis houses 6,500 major customers needing dependable power supply.

• On-site Renewable Generation & Technology:

  • Rooftop solar and battery storage prioritized for on-site power.
  • Prologis is the #2 generator of onsite renewables in the US.
  • Integrates with the grid but also develops microgrid solutions for special use cases.
  • Technology evolution (e.g., linear generators, fuel cells) is making more solutions viable.
    [06:59, 15:23]

    “We focus on on-site generation of rooftop solar… [and] provide battery storage because the sun doesn’t always shine.” — Susan Uthayakumar

• Energy Paradox & Changing Economics:

  • Demand acceleration for electricity was underestimated.
  • Logistics facilities are turning into flexible energy hubs.
  • Microgrids are expensive but becoming more viable as needs intensify.
    [09:34]

    “The energy world is very dynamic. It's changing. What didn't make sense yesterday may make sense tomorrow.” — Susan Uthayakumar

• Emissions, Growth, and Revenue Streams:

  • On-site renewables cut emissions and create revenue, reinforcing the business case.
  • Decarbonization initiatives future-proof Prologis’ portfolio. [12:14]

    “Energy for us is a revenue stream… it behooves us to think about it that way in order to be able to scale what we're doing.” — Susan Uthayakumar

• Technology Priorities for the Future:

  • Ongoing excitement about multi-modal energy generation (solar, fuel cells, linear generators).
  • Growing importance of automation, design efficiency, and building for electrification.
    [15:23]

    “I'm really excited about the different generations of energy… it speaks to time in terms of getting that electron moving.” — Susan Uthayakumar

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3. Trane Technologies: HVAC, Data Centers & AI

(Guest: Holly Paper)

• Trane Technologies at a Glance:

  • Global leader in commercial buildings and industrial HVAC solutions
  • “Sustainability is the strategy” — consistently through decades of emissions-reduction commitments.
    [16:59]

• Ambitious Climate Targets:

  • Science Based Targets initiative approved; recent “Gigaton Challenge” pledges to cut 1 billion metric tons of greenhouse gases (about France’s and Italy’s annual emissions combined).
    [17:59]

    “We always believe that one company can change an industry and the industry can change the world.” — Holly Paper

• Data Centers as Energy Flashpoints:

  • Surging demand due to AI and cloud computing massively increases energy/cooling requirements.
  • Trane’s role: delivering more efficient cooling systems, using innovations like ICE (thermal) batteries for peak shaving.
  • Advanced models: reuse waste heat from data centers for local heating (residences, Olympic pools, district systems). [20:53–23:15]

    “You’ve got data centers in the basement of residential high rises and the heating is used for the people in the building. Even the Paris Olympics, like the aquatic pools, were heated by heat from a data center.” — Holly Paper (22:53, paraphrased first by Holly, then repeated by Ed Crooks)

• Circular Energy/Community Models:

  • Integrating data centers into local energy ecosystems to reduce waste and benefit communities.
  • Public-private partnerships now extend to energy infrastructure, not just workforce development.

• Policy vs. Market-Driven Decarbonization:

  • Customer investment is mainly driven by business cases and payback periods; incentives help, but aren’t required.
  • 600+ US utility rebates for efficiency, plus tough building codes, keep momentum for upgrades independent of federal policy shifts. [27:29]

    “Anything that happens in terms of incentives, regardless of where they come from, is a tailwind, but it’s not required.” — Holly Paper

• AI in Buildings & Skilled Trades:

  • AI-driven technologies dynamically optimize building (HVAC) operations for massive energy savings (e.g., Dollar Tree’s 2,600 stores; 45% savings in Dubai commercial buildings).
  • “Blue collar AI”: AI augments skilled trade labor, bridging chronic workforce shortages and enabling rapid scaling. [29:04, 30:39]

    “The biggest problem that we all have to solve is not necessarily the technology… It’s really the ability to scale. And a lot of times it comes down to the person on the ground doing the work.” — Holly Paper

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Notable Quotes & Key Moments (with Timestamps)

• The Demand Dilemma:

  “Demand acceleration I don't think was anticipated. So you have so many different parties working on how do you solve for that?... All these perspectives are colliding and getting to equations that perhaps we didn't think about before.”
  — Susan Uthayakumar (09:34)

• Rooftop Solar Priority:

  “We're the number two generator of on-site renewables in the United States… we also provide battery storage because when you think about the grid, you know, the sun doesn't always shine.”
  — Susan Uthayakumar (06:59)

• Business Resilience through Energy:

  “Resilience is absolutely paramount for people that are managing these very complex, global interconnected supply chains... if you lose energy at one particular node... then the whole thing gets thrown out.”
  — Ed Crooks (05:37)

• Circular Energy in Action:

  “Even the Paris Olympics, like the aquatic pools, were heated by heat from a data center.”
  — Holly Paper (22:53)
  “That's amazing. That's great.”
  — Ed Crooks (23:13)

• Business Case Trumps Policy:

  “Most of our customers first and foremost have aging infrastructure... anything that happens in terms of incentives, regardless of where they come from, is a tailwind, but it's not required.”
  — Holly Paper (27:29)

• Scaling Climate Solutions with AI:

  “We have solutions now that take it to the next level. And honestly, I think that you're going to see more and more and more of that because it's really... blue collar AI—like the AI that helps really get work done.”
  — Holly Paper (30:41)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Susan Uthayakumar Interview (Prologis):
  03:29 – 15:52

• Notable on rising electricity demand & supply chain resilience:
  06:02 – 09:34

• Commentary on decarbonization, business sense, & future-proofing:
  12:14 – 15:18

• Holly Paper Interview (Trane Technologies):
  16:57 – 31:29

• Notable on data center cooling & heat reuse:
  20:53 – 23:15

• AI and scaling climate action in HVAC/Buildings:
  29:04 – 30:41

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Memorable Moments

• The reuse of data center waste heat in local communities, including a high-profile example at the Paris Olympics, shows the rapid evolution of circular energy models.
• Trane’s “gigaton” emissions target exemplifies the scale at which private industry can aim to move the needle, despite regulatory headwinds.

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Summary Tone

Ed Crooks strikes a pragmatic but hopeful note, testing whether “business as usual” can produce genuine climate progress as policy momentum ebbs. Both guests are practical and forward-thinking, describing climate action not as a “nice to have” but as integral to growth, infrastructure resilience, customer promise, and technological leadership. The tone is evidence-based, direct, and focused on scalable impact.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Leading businesses like Prologis and Trane are doubling down on decarbonization, not stepping back—driven by resilience, efficiency, and new commercial models.
• Technology (AI, microgrids, rooftop solar, thermal storage) combined with evolving business and labor models underpins much of the progress—and the challenges ahead.
• Policy uncertainty is real, but ambitious climate action continues where the business case makes sense; market signals, customer needs, and local incentives still drive progress.
• Watch for scaling of AI solutions at both “white collar” and “blue collar” levels: operational optimization and workforce augmentation could be climate action’s next big unlock.

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Transcript

[Susan Uthayakumar]

Demand acceleration I don't think was anticipated. So you have so many different parties working on how do you solve for that? You've got utilities saying, you know what? I really can't anticipate the demand and the curve that I need to produce. You've got businesses saying, well, how should we solve for the challenge of getting power in the future? And then you've got customers saying, you know what? I want my operation to be not interrupted. So all these perspectives are colliding and getting to equations that perhaps we didn't think about before.

[Holly Paper]

We've got data centers in the basement of residential high rises and the heating is used for the people in the building. Even the Paris Olympics, like the aquatic pools, were heated by heat from a data center.

[Ed Crookes]

Looking for greater resilience in energy systems without the risks of going it alone. At heum, we've got you covered. As an integrated energy storage solution provider, we offer customized storage systems, a service tailored to each project, whether utility scale, commercial or renewable integration. From design and financing to operations and maintenance, Hythium manages the entire lifecycle, delivering sustainable profit, stronger resilience and lower emissions. Built to last, built for progress. Discover more at www.Hythium.com and let's empower the green future together. Hello and welcome to the Energy Gang, a discussion show from Wood Mackenzie about the fast changing world of energy. I'm Ed Crookes and this show is being published on Monday 10 November, which is the first day of COP30, the International Climate talks in Belem, Brazil. We're going to be bringing you a series of special episodes covering all the news from the conference starting tomorrow. But first, what we're doing on this show to set the scene for Cop 30 is taking a look back to Climate Week back in September to talk about one of the crucial issues in the talks, which is the role of business and the attitude that businesses have to climate action. I think it's fair to say that something we hear about quite a lot nowadays is that businesses have given up on climate action. They are no longer pursuing a transition to low carbon energy. ESG considerations, environmental, social and governance issues have been de emphasized in corporate strategies and so on. That's something that is very much out there in terms of the discussion about energy and climate and definitely contributes to the sense that the global effort to address climate change at the governmental level and in the private sector is faltering. So to explore perspectives on that question, we spoke to two businesses in two very different industries about the same challenge, which is how to deliver growth, have a successful business, while also making progress towards ambitious climate goals. First of all, I'm going to be speaking to Susan Uthayakumar, who is the Chief energy and Sustainability Officer at Prologis, which is the world's largest logistics real estate company. They move about 3% of the world's GDP through their facilities. And then later on, we're going to be hearing from Holly Paper, who is the president of Commercial H Vac for the Americas at Trane Technologies, which is a company that plays a critical role in shaping demand for energy, as we'll hear. But let's hear from Susan. First of all, Susan, welcome to the energy gang.

[Susan Uthayakumar]

Well, thank you very much for having me today.

[Ed Crookes]

So before we get into the topics that you're talking about here at Climate Week, I wondered if you could just tell us a little bit about prologis for the benefit perhaps of some of our listeners who may not be familiar with the company. What do you do?

[Susan Uthayakumar]

So prologis is the world's largest logistics real estate company. And what that is is we have 1.3 billion of real estate in 20 countries. So we really move commerce across the world. And to share with you some things that will make you think about Prologis, we move 3% of the world's GDP through our logistics centers. So we are sizable and we are in the, in the crux of supply chain and in the crux of moving commerce.

[Ed Crookes]

Thank you. Apologies to listeners. You can probably hear the sirens and the horns going in the background. We're recording this in midtown New York in the middle of Climate Week, which is also when the UN General assembly is meeting, all the world leaders are in town. This is notoriously a terrible time to be in New York City. Okay, so that's prologis. Thanks very much for that. Your job title, I think, is very interesting. Chief Energy and Sustainability Officer. What does that mean? And what does that mean your role is?

[Susan Uthayakumar]

That's a very interesting question. So you're wondering what is a person that has come from the energy space doing at a logistics real estate company? So I mentioned that we move goods around the world, and if you think about supply chain, resiliency of supply chain is top of mind for a lot of people these days. And when you think about Prologis, we've got 6,500 customers in our premises. And so these are the Fortune 100, Fortune 500 companies. And they all think about not just how do we move good, but also do we have the power. Right? Power and energy is becoming very much a topic of discussion these days. So I would say the people that asked me to come and join prologis, the founder and CEO, was able to see around the corners and say energy will be relevant. So it makes sense to have someone with that background in our company.

[Ed Crookes]

So give us some examples of what that means then. As you say, resilience is absolutely paramount for people that are managing these very complex global interconnected supply chains. The point is what? That if you lose energy at one particular node, at one particular storage facility, whatever it might be in that complex interconnected supply chain, then the whole thing gets thrown out.

[Susan Uthayakumar]

Yeah. So if you think about where the world is moving too, right, things are getting electrified. All automation is coming into play in logistics centers. You've got electrification of fleets. So all of that means that the demand for energy is increasing. And we know that generation is really hard to bring within the time frame of when you need it. So this is the energy paradox. Right. Demand is going to outpace supply. And when you think about the roof of, of a logistics real estate facility, it's anywhere from 100,000 square feet to larger. And it's an amazing facility to generate on site power, which is the cheapest and the fastest way of getting power into the consumption that you need. So it's for me, and I think when you think about it, it's a no brainer. You want to generate the energy that is going to be harder and harder to get.

[Ed Crookes]

So that's a big priority for you, is it rooftop solar?

[Susan Uthayakumar]

Absolutely. We focus on on site generation of rooftop solar. We're the number two generator of on site renewables in the United States. We also provide battery storage because when you think about the grid, you know, the sun doesn't always shine. So you need to be able to store that energy and provide flexibility to the grid. We also provide charging infrastructure because fleet electrification is going to happen and is happening. So our customers need us to be able to provide that infrastructure for them.

[Ed Crookes]

You mentioned providing flexibility to the grid. So your facilities then would always be typically grid connected. I'm sure you're taking part of this debate, but as you know, the big debate about off site power, behind the meter resources and so on. But your position is what always that you want to be integrated with the grid but also have your own supply.

[Susan Uthayakumar]

Absolutely. So. So you know, most of what you will do when you generate power, you will have to interact with the grid one way or the other. Because ultimately, you know, the grid that we have was designed so many years ago to produce Energy in one place, transmitted over a transmission line and then to be consumed. But even when you generate something on site, you do have to interact with the grid. But that's a great question that you ask which is what about an islanded solution or reliability solutions? So they're not mutually exclusive topics. Right. So for example, if you need power augmentation or if you need to have resiliency solutions so you can have a microgrid. And we do develop microgrid solutions, but that is for a very specific purpose of power augmentation and for resiliency versus stress for the self consumption needs of our building.

[Ed Crookes]

Right. So to be clear what that means, then you're saying an islanded solution is actually relatively rare or a microgrid that is not connected to the broader grid is not going to be your first choice. You would always typically choose to be on grid.

[Susan Uthayakumar]

Absolutely. So a microgrid or an islanded solution is typically more expensive than producing solar. So whenever we do something, we always have the economics of what we're doing in mind. Now as the demand for power increases, the economics are going to work more and more because you just ultimately don't have the right level of power that you need. So I would say to you that the energy world is very dynamic. It's changing. And what didn't make sense yesterday may make sense tomorrow.

[Ed Crookes]

What do you mean by that?

[Susan Uthayakumar]

Well, you know, if you think about the energy landscape today, the demand acceleration I don't think was anticipated. So you have so many different parties working on how do you solve for that. You've got utilities saying, you know what, I really can't anticipate the demand and the curve that I need to produce. You've got businesses saying, well, how should we solve for the challenge of getting power in the future? And then you've got customers saying, you know what, I want my operation to be not interrupted. So all these perspectives are colliding and getting to equations that perhaps we didn't think about before.

[Ed Crookes]

That's very interesting. And all the time the technology is changing and evolving, evolving and making new things possible and making it possible to solve some of these challenges in different ways, I guess.

[Susan Uthayakumar]

Absolutely. So on that point of technology coming in, there's new generation technology that's coming in. It could be linear generators, fuel cells, they are not really new, but there's all forms of generation that people are now taking stock of as well. The cost curve of these technologies are changing, they are reducing, so they are becoming more and more viable.

[Ed Crookes]

How have you been perceiving things at Climate Week and what conversations are still going on about emissions and how does that factor into your thinking?

[Susan Uthayakumar]

So what I've observed this week is there's a lot of practical discussion on what are the risks companies and countries should address. So when we think about emissions, the more resources that you use, the greater the emissions that you have. It really comes down to common sense. So there's been a lot of discussions on how do you introduce efficiency for the reduction of cost material as well as emissions. And then there is a really clear discussion on to meet the demand that we're facing, we need all forms of generation. So it is not just going from gray to green, it's also reducing that gray emissions to what is palatable. And then of course, you have to factor in the economics. When you think about any technology, any service, you want to be able to be standalone, not necessarily reliant on, on. On subsidies per se. You want the economics to work. So at prologis, we're always focused on what makes common sense, what makes business sense, what are our investors and customers asking us for? And they're not necessarily different perspectives. They do collide.

[Ed Crookes]

And what about the economics of energy for the company then? Is energy actually a revenue stream for you as well as just being a way to support the resiliency of your operations?

[Susan Uthayakumar]

Absolutely. So energy for us is a revenue stream because, you know, we live in a world where you need to make sure that the capital that you deploy does make sense from a return standpoint and does generate a revenue. And really it behooves us to think about it that way in order to be able to scale what we're doing. Not only is it a generation of revenue, but it also helps to decarbonize our building. So it's really a beautiful thing of doing something that makes business sense that also ultimately achieves the goal of what we're trying to do.

[Ed Crookes]

And in the industry, it seems like there's been a clear shift away from sustainability and focus on climate over the past year. Would you say that's been true of prologis as well? I mean, do you think you're approaching some of these issues a bit differently now, or is it the same for you?

[Susan Uthayakumar]

We always believed at prologis that the initiatives that we're going to drive were based on common sense, and that thinking has not shifted. So when you look at our portfolio, the emissions that come from energy consumption, by deploying solar, we are reducing them. And that makes sense from an economic standpoint. It makes sense from A decarbonization standpoint. And it also fulfills the need of our customers whose journey hasn't necessarily shifted. Right. We have all types of different customers in our facility. So we're really there to meet their needs and make sure that as we do them, it brings resiliency into our portfolio and that we're future proofing our portfolio. That's the approach that we take.

[Ed Crookes]

So let's talk about the future and being future proof. What do you think the key future developments are going to be? I mean, when you think about technology or anything else, to be honest with you, what is it you think is going to change Prologis and the logistics industry in the next 10 years?

[Susan Uthayakumar]

You know, when you think about logistics you need to move goods closer to where the people are because E commerce is something that is going to increase. When you think about logistics, the fact that automation is going to come into play, it's real. And when you think about logistics, the fact that you are going to have fleet electrification is very real. And prologis is a global company. So not only do we need to meet the demands of one country, we need to meet the demands of 20 different countries. So when I look at that future, I think the role that we're playing in the center of commerce and supply chain is going to become more and more relevant. And we think about. So as we become more and more relevant, what are the skill set that we need to have within the company? So energy is definitely one as well as how we are building our buildings, you know, with design efficiencies in play is very important. So we think about all of those things and we also realize that we are part of an infrastructure play. Right. And we want that resiliency of infrastructure to increase and that's what we're focused on.

[Ed Crookes]

And any particular technologies that you've really got your eye on, what are you most excited about?

[Susan Uthayakumar]

You know, I'm really excited about the different generations of energy. So you can generate energy through solar, you can generate energy through a linear generator which is a chemical reaction. You can generate energy through fuel cells. And all of that is very important because it speak to time in terms of getting that electron moving. So I'm super excited and that shouldn't surprise you. I've spent 20 years in the space of energy and that's what I really think about.

[Ed Crookes]

Susan Ofe Kumar, thank you very much indeed.

[Susan Uthayakumar]

My pleasure to be here.

[Ed Crookes]

Thank you for joining us on the Energy gang. Hello Ed here. If you like Energy gang and you want to go deep into the world of climate solutions. I have a recommendation for you. Zero is a podcast about tech tactics and big ideas on climate and energy. It's hosted by our friend Akshat Rathi, who you may remember from the show in the past. He's a senior climate reporter at Bloomberg Green. You'll hear conversations with world leaders such as Mia Motley, billionaire green tech investors including Vinod Khosla, and CEOs of ExxonMobil, Uber, Siemens Energy, and many plucky climate startups as well, all grappling with the ups and downs of the energy transition. New episodes drop every Thursday. Search for Zero from Bloomberg wherever you get your podcasts. Now let's hear from Holly Paper at Trane. Trane is one of the world's largest air conditioning companies and it's right at the heart of the debate over the future of energy because of the critical importance of cooling for data centers. First thing I think we need to do probably is talk a little bit about Trane. Some of our listeners may not be familiar with the company.

[Holly Paper]

So we are global company traded on the New York Stock Exchange and we go to market with strategic brands like Trane and Thermalking. So I lead our Trane commercial business and what that means is essentially a business focused on buildings, data centers, industry, essentially everything that's not a home. What it means to be a global climate innovator for us is that sustainability is the strategy. It's not an offshoot to the strategy. And it's been something that we focused on as an organization for the last couple of decades. And the way that we see it is our responsibility with the industries that we're in. We could either be a detractor from the environment or we could be the company to lead the way to create more sustainable solutions for building owners, homeowners and transportation companies.

[Ed Crookes]

Right? So talk about sustainability being at the heart of the business. One of the things I was very struck by is that you've set these very ambitious goals for emissions reduction, science based targets, initiative approved, and so on. Why did you do that?

[Holly Paper]

It's a good question. I mean, I think there's an underlying philosophy at the company of this idea of challenging possible for a more sustainable world. And many times that means setting audacious goals that maybe you don't exactly know how you're going to get to when you initially set them. And then you create a roadmap over time. And as an innovation company, an engineering company, that's how we operate in everything that we do. And so we our first climate Commitment was over a decade ago. We achieved that early. And then this last round, we put some new targets in place, both in terms of what we call our gigaton challenge, which is essentially to reduce the greenhouse gas footprint and carbon emissions footprint by 1 billion metric tons, which is essentially the equivalent, the annual equivalent to France and Italy combined. And the reason that we put an ambitious target out there is that the kinds of things we do, heating and cooling of buildings, in my case, we have a tremendous opportunity to impact our customers, businesses, in ways that can literally change the world. And we always believe that one company can change an industry and the industry can change the world.

[Ed Crookes]

Is that feeling like an increasingly lonely position now? It feels like two years ago, every business was announcing a new set of emissions goals and investors were very much kind of pushing businesses towards aligning with the Paris Agreement and so on. Now it feels like that investor pressure has very much subsided. We've had a whole kind of backlash against ESG investing, a change of administration in the United States, kind of withdrawing from the Paris Agreement, turning away from climate action and so on. Does that mean that, as I say, you're kind of now a bit out on your own? I mean, not. Not kind of exclusively out on, but you know what I mean, in a kind of a smaller group of companies that are still committed to emissions reduction?

[Holly Paper]

Yeah, I mean, I think the way that we see it is, is a little bit different in that, you know, if I think about just the United States, for instance, probably a million commercial buildings, 75% of those buildings have infrastructure more than 25 years old. And so the infrastructure, the thermal infrastructure, the heating and cooling will be upgraded. Right. And so we lead first, as most companies do, in terms of the return on the investment of the systems we put in place. However, decarbonization and sustainability is an enhancer to that. There's no reason that you can't have a return on the investment on the decision you make and make it good for the planet. And so the way we look at this in terms of the spirit of who we've always been, is very much around how do we solve our customer problems in a way that that helps them, helps us and helps the planet?

[Ed Crookes]

Now, you mentioned data centers earlier. My ears picked up with that. Everyone always do at the moment. Clearly that's been a big topic of conversation here at Climate Week. Everyone's talking about AI and data centers and increasing power demand. What's Trane's role there?

[Holly Paper]

Yeah, so we, I mean, I think the data center role for us and the situation is one of a paradox per se. First and foremost. You know, for years now we've had many data centers as our customers and really work with them around the cooling systems for their mission critical applications for the data centers and so.

[Ed Crookes]

And cooling is typically a very large proportion of the total running cost of a data center, right?

[Holly Paper]

It is. I mean, historically in a traditional data center. Yes. And then now you have these new era AI data centers, which is really what's driving the topic here. And generally speaking around all the headlines and what's happening is with the density of chips and the change of what the computer infrastructure looks like, the cooling solutions become more important. And so we have been doing a lot of co innovation with our customers much earlier in the process because cooling continues to be a really critical piece there. And so we've worked for many years now and more efficient cooling systems now they're just taking another twist in terms of the types of cooling systems required for these new data centers. So part of what we're solving for as we think about data centers is bringing the most efficient solutions to our customers and even innovative solutions like we've got thermal battery storage, so ICE batteries, you know, to do things like peak shaving. So if a data center, you know, maybe only needs peak load at certain times. Right. How do you make them a better contributor? I think there's other places that we're working with data center companies on heat reuse. If you think about the idea, you can think about that two ways. One, a data center generates a lot of heat, or two, can you be an active contributor to the community by using that heat in a different way? So we solve both within the walls of a data center. But we've also been working on this idea of energy circularity in the community. And how do you make sure that one business or data center is not just an isolated energy user, but instead an active contributor to the community?

[Ed Crookes]

And is any of that actually operational yet or these kind of ideas that.

[Holly Paper]

Are in development operational? For sure. We have several examples, you know, in places where we've got data centers in the basement of residential high rises and the heating is used for the people in the building, we've got an example that even the Paris Olympics, like the aquatic pools, were heated by heat from a data center. You know, the data center.

[Ed Crookes]

That's amazing. That's great.

[Holly Paper]

Yeah, yeah, We've got examples where, you know, the heat is used for district heating, for nurseries and government buildings, et cetera. So we're seeing some of that. We've got a lot of customers talking about new models around desalinization, but just trying to find a way to again, partner with a different and a broader ecosystem to solve some of the challenges that we know bring. I think the other side of data centers that we see is, is a place where we can make a dramatic difference in building. So a building, a commercial building like the one we're sitting in now, you know, in a historic version, yesterday's version, we, we would work with a customer to put heating and cooling infrastructure in this building. And then we have service technicians over time that, you know, help them help make sure it's optimized and runs the right way over time. And what's happening now, we actually acquired a company, Brainbox AI, and we've got a solution where we've fallen in love with a problem, right, the use case of H VAC management. And it's using AI essentially to sit on top of building controls and looking at weather patterns, looking at occupant load meter prices, and continuously optimizing the building to, to drive efficiency. And we're seeing examples like a dollar tree, for instance, right? A retail footprint in the US 2600 stores, 40% less energy used by putting these kind of solutions in place. We've got a commercial building in Dubai that, you know, is a few hundred thousand square feet and, you know, same thing, 45% energy savings by using solutions like this. So we're finding a way, you know, we're working with the data center companies to be more responsible, but we're also using the technology, the very technology they enable to help building owners be more responsible users of energy. And the spirit of what that looks like can be very dramatic in terms of grid, the infrastructure and our whole ecosystem.

[Ed Crookes]

Yeah, that must be very interesting for hyperscalers datacenter operators and others. All those companies that are looking to add new data center capacity very, very quickly. And the thing they're very often finding, when they go to communities and say, hey, we want to put a data center in your area, they get a lot of pushback because people are worried about the electricity demand. What's that going to mean in terms of new investment that's going to be needed? Is that going to drive up their bills? Is that going to make the grid less reliable? Is there going to be a risk of blackouts because there's too many data centers drawing from the grid and so on? And so presumably, anything you can do to both reduce data center power demand and also make it more flexible must be very, very welcome.

[Holly Paper]

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And you know, whether it's this idea of heat reuse and kind of the community give back to piece of it, I think the other side of it is, you know, we believe that commercial buildings play a huge role in this as well as always. I mean, in the U.S. 20% of electricity today in most many parts of the world is used for commercial buildings and a third of that is wasted. And so if we can get the whole ecosystem to be more responsible about how they're using power and energy, the reality is, is that we have sufficient energy if we can level load it, if we can use it in a responsible way, if we take advantage of the free energy that that's being created here and kind of work together in ways maybe we haven't worked together in the past. You know, it's super interesting. We're seeing in many communities a lot of public private partnership. Even here in the US where in the past that's been focused largely on economic development and skill building, we're starting to see the scope of that increase to think about infrastructure and like, okay, what about the utilities? And, and so we're seeing and really inspired by the kind of collaboration and creativity that's happening to try to solve this at the local levels too.

[Ed Crookes]

And presumably if you're doing that kind of thing, if you're making data centers more efficient, cutting their electricity use, that's something that doesn't really rely on policy at all. I'm wondering, do you notice any difference from policy changes? Obviously it's been big shift in the US administration, big shift in the framework of tax credits and so on around energy, low carbon energy in particular, because of the one big beautiful bill. Does any of that impinge on you?

[Holly Paper]

You know, it's, it's a good, it's the right question. It's a good question. I would say first and foremost, we are business people who, who have solutions and are working with customers and make sure that the basic thing we're trying to do has a payback that makes business sense. And on top of that, right where there's energy incentive credit, etc. To help make that more affordable for customers, even better, and we help our customers navigate through that. What I would say is that we continue to see a lot of, in fact, I think there's something like 600 different utility rebates and credits right now driven at the very local level to help make energy more affordable, available and resilient. And you look at the building codes here, just in the U.S. i mean, almost 90% of the area in the U.S. is covered by pretty stringent building codes and maybe 20% of them require energy efficiency year on year improvements. So we're seeing, you know, independent of any kind of policy, we're seeing a lot of other stakeholders continue momentum. Right. It's accelerating and continuing that helps offset some of this. So most of our customers first and foremost have aging infrastructure, as I mentioned, and they need to address that agent and infrastructure. You know, anything that, that happens in terms of incentives, regardless of where they come from, is a tailwind, but it's not required. And then we're, we're not really seeing anything materially different on the ground in terms of how our customers are behaving or the work they need to do.

[Ed Crookes]

So what's coming next in terms of new technologies, innovations, new business models, maybe even what's the thing that we should be looking out for?

[Holly Paper]

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, one of the big areas for us is really this idea of artificial intelligence. And you know, I know everybody's talking about that, but I think use cases that make sense and that have a high return. And you know, we, we are very excited not only about, you know, our H Vac, our like autonomous controls, like our artificial intelligence solutions that are driving value today. I think the other side of that is the people side of that, which is for us a people plus technology piece I think is what's next. So let me give you an example. You know, we, we have a tremendous amount of service technicians, so skilled trade workers. And you know, in the US and frankly in many areas of the world, the supply demand Delta is about 20 times. Right. So 20 times more demand over the next handful of years versus supply, it's only going to get worse. How do you use technology to augment that? And so we've got agents to augment the work of our service technicians. So the scarce resources that they are, finding ways for them to use their unique time and talent and skills in a way that only they can, but using technology to augment that such that the combination allows all of us to go bigger, faster, bolder. I think the biggest problem that we all have to solve is not necessarily the technology. I think we've got smart people creating technology. It's really the ability to scale. And a lot of times it comes down to the person on the ground doing the work. And the smarter we can make them by using technology and tools in very pragmatic ways. I think that that's the game changing for us.

[Ed Crookes]

And how soon does that start to become effective.

[Holly Paper]

I mean, we've been working with, you know, I would say pretty limited AI augmentation, technology augmentation with our technicians and our skilled trade workers. We've got solutions now that take it to the next level. And honestly, I think that you're going to see more and more and more of that because it's really our chief digital officer talks a lot about blue collar AI, like the AI that helps really get work done. So we're seeing more there. And even in the technology we have and the roadmap we have and the tools we have today, it is game changing in terms of what we see in front of us, in terms of what we need and what, frankly, the world needs.

[Ed Crookes]

Right. That's going to be a really fascinating thing to look out for. I look forward to hearing more about that as it develops and as it rolls out. But for now, though, we're going to leave it there. Holly Paper, thanks very much for joining us.

[Holly Paper]

Yeah, thanks. Great to be here. Appreciate it. Thank you.

[Ed Crookes]

Thanks very much, Holly, for joining us. And thanks again to Susan Athaya Kumar as well. So that's all for this episode, but we're going to be covering every development at COP30 and analyzing the stories with some of our usual friends here on the Energy Gang. So make sure you're following the show. We're not actually going to be at the talks this year, but we do aim to make sure we won't miss any of the crucial developments. So keep following us for regular updates. For now, though, we're going to leave it there. Thanks to our producers, Dan Cottrell and Stuart Duffy. And above all, as ever, many thanks to all of you for listening. And as I was saying, we'll be back tomorrow as our COP 30 coverage kicks off. Until then, good.