How energy diversification can drive development | Special pre-ADIPEC preview episode

Summary

Podcast Summary: Energy Gang by Wood Mackenzie

Episode: How Energy Diversification Can Drive Development | Special pre-ADIPEC Preview
Date: October 29, 2025
Host: Ed Crooks
Guests: Charlotte Wolf Bai (Group Chief Sustainability Officer, Petronas), Andrew Smart (Senior Managing Director, Middle East, Accenture)

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Episode Overview

This special preview episode explores how energy diversification is critical for economic development—especially for emerging economies—and how transitioning to lower-carbon energy sources can foster more resilient, prosperous, and equitable societies. The conversation also previews the themes and expectations for the upcoming ADIPEC 2025 energy conference in Abu Dhabi.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Global Perspectives on Energy Diversification

• [03:21] Host Ed Crooks flags the Western-centric bias in energy transition debates and emphasizes the importance of considering global inequality and varied regional perspectives.

• Andrew Smart highlights the Middle East’s unique position as a “pivot point” between developed and developing economies, providing an intersection for sharing innovations and opportunities, not just in energy but also in broader investment and technology sectors.

  "The Middle east sees itself at this pivot point between the global north and the global south, offering the possibility to connect opportunities from the developed world into the growth opportunities in less well energy-served nations."
  — Andrew Smart [04:05]

2. Role and Responsibility of National Oil Companies

• Charlotte Wolf Bai describes Petronas’s broader nation-building responsibilities beyond being a market player, including energy security, economic contribution ($350 billion to Malaysia since 1974), and educational support for over 39,000 people.

• She explains the concept of a “just transition”, ensuring investments (both legacy hydrocarbons and new energy value chains) create opportunities and lift people out of poverty.

  "This is a once-in-a-generation opportunity where so much investment is going into infrastructure. We have to make sure it benefits more people and really lifts people out of poverty."
  — Charlotte Wolf Bai [07:17]

3. Supporting Local Supply Chains & Nature-Based Solutions

• [07:49] Petronas Supplier Support Program: Training, capacity-building, tools, and financing to help Malaysia’s 4,000+ energy vendors adapt to lower-carbon futures.

• [09:14] Nature-Based Solutions: Currently focused on forests and mangroves for generating carbon credits, with high-integrity engagement of indigenous communities.

  "We are in a mega, diverse, biologically diverse country... We need to use nature to adapt to climate change and mitigate its effects."
  — Charlotte Wolf Bai [08:34]

  “Today, we hosted a roundtable with representatives from indigenous people communities to discuss... how we can uphold their rights in nature-based solution projects.”
  — Charlotte Wolf Bai [09:27]

4. Interconnection & Regional Collaboration

• [11:14] Andrew Smart emphasizes the critical need for regional collaboration and interconnection (e.g., GCC grid projects) as energy systems integrate more renewables and face technological and climate disparities.

  “No one nation, no one company can be fully self-sufficient. Out of the embers of globalization, we're seeing much strengthening of regionalization.”
  — Andrew Smart [12:30]

5. Policy, Regulation, and Investment Challenges

• [15:21] Charlotte articulates the need for fit-for-purpose regulation—national and regional policies that keep up with accelerating technological change and provide bankable business models for new energy systems.

• Regulatory challenges in emerging economies are particularly steep due to limited resources and evolving market structures; close industry-government collaboration is essential.

  "The real hindrance... is the lack of fit-for-purpose regulation. It requires close collaboration between industry and decision makers."
  — Charlotte Wolf Bai [16:39]

6. Finance for Energy Transition

• [18:33] Finance is highlighted as a critical but often under-met need. Charlotte contends that capacity building is essential to developing “bankable projects” that can attract finance.

• No amount of donor money will suffice; commercially viable models are essential and must be learned from international experience.

  "If you have well defined projects, finance will find it. But to develop these projects you need capacity building."
  — Charlotte Wolf Bai [18:38]

7. Vision for 2035 and Beyond

• [20:09] Both guests are optimistic:

  • Malaysia’s Energy Transition Roadmap will drive demonstrator projects across renewables, hydrogen, and carbon capture, underpinned by new policies (Climate Change Acts & Policies).
  • Global Trends: With falling technology costs, aligned policy, and multilateral agreements, more countries will benefit from energy diversification, improving sustainability and security.

  “Policy is kind of key and critical... here in Malaysia it’s becoming very much aligned, but it's perhaps not true for all countries.”
  — Charlotte Wolf Bai [21:37]

8. Expectations for ADIPEC 2025

• [24:07] Andrew Smart notes the advent of new “hyperscalers” and AI companies as both technology providers and major energy consumers/players—what innovations and collaborations emerge is a central interest.

• Charlotte seeks a focus on bankable business models for emerging energy value chains and hopes for visionary, provocative perspectives at the conference.

  "I want to hear some visionary and provocative perspectives that challenge industry norms and mainstream views."
  — Charlotte Wolf Bai [26:37]

  “We need to collaborate like never before, but also across sectors, and ADIPEC lends itself for that.”
  — Charlotte Wolf Bai [27:14]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Just Transition:
  "It is about making sure that our investments, existing into oil and gas, but also into new value chains, create as many opportunities for as many people as possible."
  — Charlotte Wolf Bai [07:03]

• On Regionalization:
  “Resilience will come from interconnection... Multinational collaboration is so, so important.”
  — Andrew Smart [13:23]

• On Regulation:
  "You need strong regulation. The challenge in many emerging countries is that the ability to regulate is not always there and it's not easy."
  — Charlotte Wolf Bai [16:09]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:44 — Introduction of guests and themes
• 03:21–05:52 — Global inequality and perspectives on energy development
• 05:52–10:41 — Petronas’ just transition & nation-building role; nature-based solutions
• 11:14–13:53 — Middle East’s regional role; interconnection and transition challenges
• 15:21–17:45 — Regulation, policy needs, and regulatory challenges
• 18:33–19:51 — Finance barriers and solutions for energy transition
• 20:09–22:01 — Looking ahead to 2035: national roadmaps and global outlook
• 24:07–27:26 — Conference expectations and messages to ADIPEC attendees

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Conclusion

This episode offers an insightful, regionally-nuanced view of the global energy transition, emphasizing the critical role of energy diversification, the importance of just transition policies, and the urgent need for cross-sector collaboration, policy alignment, and innovative financing. Both the Middle East and Malaysia exemplify how emerging economies are grappling with balancing legacy energy systems and new lower-carbon pathways while seeking broader socioeconomic benefits—and all eyes turn to ADIPEC 2025 to set the agenda for next-generation energy development.

Transcript

[A]

ADEPEC 2025, the world's largest energy event, returns to Abu Dhabi this November under the theme Energy Intelligence impact. More than 1800 speakers and 205,000 attendees come together to address a dual imperative, strengthening today's energy systems and scaling intelligent solutions. Join us in Abu Dhabi from the 3rd to the 6th of November to explore how the convergence of energy, AI investment and emerging economies is advancing global progress. Register [e-mail] hello and welcome to the Energy Gang, a discussion show from Wood Mackenzie about the fast changing world of energy. I'm Ed Crookes and this is the third and last in a short series of special episodes. Looking ahead to the ADEPEC Energy Conference in November. And in this show we're going to be talking about energy and economic development and in particular about the role of diversification into low carbon energy and other new technologies in supporting economic growth and rising living standards. Now, to talk about those issues, I'm joined by Charlotte Wolf Bai, who is the group Chief Sustainability Officer at Petronas, which is the national energy company of Malaysia. Hello, Charlotte. Welcome to the show.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Hello, Tiwat, great to have you here. Thanks very much for joining us. And it's also a pleasure to welcome Andrew Smart, who's the senior Managing Director and resources client group lead for the Middle east at Accenture. Hi, Andrew.

[C]

Thanks for joining us, Ed, thank you. Wonderful to be here.

[A]

Yeah, thank you very much for joining us. Now, before we get into the heart of this discussion, I think it would be useful for our listeners perhaps to just get a bit of an idea of where you're coming from in this whole debate about energy diversification and development. Charlotte, start with you. Tell us about your role at Petronas. What do you work on there?

[B]

Certainly. So I'm the group Chief Sustainability officer. Me and my team, we set the strategy for net zero carbon emission. We also look at nature, so we have a strategy around thriving with nature as well as fostering a just transition. So as you mentioned, Petronas is the national oil and gas company in Malaysia and we are also here to support nation building and to support the development of the country.

[A]

Right, thanks very much. And I want to drill down certainly into that notion of the just transition and exactly what that means a little bit later on in the show. Before we get to that, though, Andrew, same question for you, really. What do you do at Accenture and what is your perspective on that issue of energy and development?

[C]

So two roles within Accenture. So the lead for our energy business and have responsibility for setting the Strategy direction of our energy business across Europe, Europe, Middle east and Africa. And by energy we principally focus on the oil and gas sector. But then within the Middle East, I broaden out slightly from an industry perspective and branch into the power sector, the chemicals and natural resources value chains, and responsible for all of the work we do with clients in the region focused on those industries. So I guess our principal role in all of that is to help bring together the possibilities of technology innovation and human ingenuity to look for future possibilities, opportunities and help organizations reach their ultimate stakeholder goals.

[A]

So something I feel very strongly about the debate about energy, and I think we're perhaps guilty of it sometimes on this show as well, is that we have a tendency to see energy too much. From a new North American and European perspective, it's clear that perceptions of energy are very different in different parts of the world. Global inequality is still very great and in many low and middle income countries in particular, there are concerns about whether investing in new energy technologies and cutting greenhouse gas emissions might actually conflict with raising living standards. Andrew, maybe talk to you about this first. When you think about these issues and the work that you're doing in the Middle east and elsewhere in the world, what do you think is the contribution that energy can make to economic development?

[C]

I think what's interesting, having moved to the Middle east and specifically to Abu Dhabi just over a year ago, is I see very much that the Middle east sees itself in this pivot point between the global north and the global south and sees itself offering that possibility to connect opportunities from the developed world that you were describing into the growth opportunities in the economic development of the less well energy served nations. And I think that remains a fascinating opportunity set and I think increasingly a fairly unique position that the Middle east plays within that context. And you definitely see the ambition and the connectivity that they're starting to play here in that role. And it's been very exciting and uplifting to see that. And I think that's true specifically in energy terms, but I increasingly see it true in wider economic and investment terms. I think increasingly it is that trading point. So I think we can see the business models and operating models of what would have been traditionally, very specifically energy companies broadening into economic and financial organizations and increasingly technological ones.

[A]

You know, we'll get into a few examples of that in a moment before we do, Charlotte, to get your perspective on this. And so Petronas International Company operates all over the world. As you said, economic development is a crucial part of your role. When you're Thinking about sustainability and you also use that phrase, the just transition. Could you talk a little bit about what that phrase means and how you see Petronas's role in supporting him?

[B]

Certainly. So maybe just to take a few steps back, what is the role of a national oil company? And certainly in the case of Petronas, we are the stewards of the hydrocarbon resources of Malaysia. But we shoulder much broader responsibilities than pure market players. So we are there to develop the industry, of course, the energy industry, but also to ensure energy security for the country as well as income for the country. So since Petronas was formed back in 1974, we contributed more than $350 billion to Malaysia through dividends and cash payments and fees and royalties and so on. But we've also supported over 39,000 people through tertiary education and in some cases also secondary education. And many of those work in our company today. And that is a true contribution to nation building and we continue this. So as the energy system continues to proliferate, we also broadening our scholarships to cover more than just hydrocarbon related engineering. Just transition back to your question. It is about making sure that our investments, existing investments into existing oil and gas resources, but also into new value chains, create as many opportunities as for many people as possible. Better prospects for more people. And I also believe that this is sort of once in a generation opportunity where so much investment is going to go into infrastructure. So we have to make sure that it benefits more people and really lifts people out of poverty and supports economic development in general.

[A]

Right. So let's think a bit about what that actually means then. So in terms of how you make that happen, what kinds of things are you thinking about?

[B]

For us, we are sort of working on what does this transition mean? Very importantly, it is to work with our vendors and our supplier community because as part of our role as a national oil company is also to support a thriving energy sector in the country. But many of our vendors, we have about more than 4,000 in Malaysia alone, they are small and medium sized companies and they not necessarily have the right level of awareness or know how to embrace a lower carbon energy future. So we want to support them in that. And we actually launched a program that we called the Petronas Supplier Support Program, which provides training and capacity and tools as well as matching finance with the companies that are embracing sort of more energy efficiency efforts and reporting on carbon emissions and so on. So that's sort of one way that we're trying to support just transition through our vendor community. But we're also working with communities. We are looking at nature based solutions. Very much so, because of course we are in a mega, diverse, biologically diverse country here in Malaysia. So we also need to make sure that we use nature to adapt to climate change and also as we continue mitigating the effects of climate change.

[A]

So give me an example of that. What does a nature based solution look like in Malaysia?

[B]

So today we are very much in the infancy of developing nature based solutions. So we are looking at forest mainly, but also mangroves for instance, to generate carbon credits. And this is one way that the world knows how to make sure that we will have good biological diversity also for the future. So this is very early, early stages in Malaysia. We're working very much with states and the federal government as well as with developers to foster a development of this, of high integrity and high quality. Today, for instance, we hosted a roundtable with representatives from indigenous people communities to discuss, you know, how can we uphold their rights in nature based solution projects. But going further, I would also say that it's about engineering solutions. And back in June we hosted an event. We think it might have been the world's first event of its kind, I don't know, but we called it the Energy and Nature Forum. And we had about three hundred and fifty people coming from all around the world to discuss how can we consider nature in the energy transition? How can we consider nature in grid development, subsea cabling for renewables, perhaps carbon capture and storage, biofuels and so on. So there's a lot more to do in this space. But I feel that the industry is embracing this now and also the EPC contractors and the developers.

[A]

Yeah, that's really interesting. Thanks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Andrew, get your perspective on this then. So you talked earlier about the role of the Middle east and the role of the Middle east obviously as a very important energy supplier to the world and also as that kind of pivot point between Global north and Global South. What does that mean then in terms of specific projects, investments, specific kind of corporate strategies? How does that get reflected in the decisions that companies and countries are taking?

[C]

Yeah, well, maybe Ed, you know, firstly, just to pick up on your theme of the just transition, I think very often we rightly and understandably focus on consumers with access to affordable energy. In reality, equally, those same consumers also need economic opportunity, they need jobs and they need to be part of not just today's economy, economy, but a pathway to the future economy. And I think when you think about the fact that while we talk about the north and the south, there's also another divide between the nations who are rich in natural resource and energy sources and 100 nations or more who continue to depend on energy imports in order to drive their economic growth. So I think when we think about a just transition, in many ways what we're talking about is ensuring that all nations have affordable, reliable and sustainable access to energy. And that's obviously needing to take place within a global landscape where we increasingly have geopolitical fragmentation, we've got financial tightening and we seeing technological acceleration and disparity between access to technology, but also disparity in terms of the impact of changing climate and climate conditions. So I think when we think about the just transition, that's the context in which we're looking to make those considerations. It's very interesting how rapidly that has developed to an acknowledgement that no one nation, no one company can ultimately be fully self sufficient. And so we're actually out of the embers of globalization. I think we're seeing much significant strengthening of regionalization. And the type of collaboration that Charlotte referenced, we see it here as well with the GCC moves for interconnection across the Gulf states. And I think it's very noteworthy that that collaboration is both sought after but also being progressed. And we are genuinely seeing that. And I think that the nature of the electricity systems that are being developed with inherent intermittency, you know, again, Charlotte referenced the realization that resilience will come from interconnection, you know, and therefore, you know, interstate and multinational collaboration is so, so important.

[A]

This episode of the Energy Gang is brought to you by Adepec 2025, the world's largest energy event. Returning to Abu Dhabi from the 3rd to the 6th of November. Under the theme Energy Intelligence Impact, ADEPEC brings together the entire energy ecosystem to address a dual imperative. Strengthening today's energy systems and scaling intelligent solutions that advance global Progress. More than 205,000 attendees and 2,250 exhibiting companies will gather to exchange ideas, forge partnerships and mobilize investment, showcasing solutions that deliver energy to more people, more affordably and with lower carbon intensity. Across 380 sessions, over 1800 expert speakers will explore how the convergence of energy, AI investment and emerging economies is reshaping markets and driving opportunity worldwide. Join us this November in Abu Dhabi, Discover more and Register [e-mail] Right, so what do countries need to make this investment in new energy technologies and new energy infrastructure work? Charlotte, you mentioned the importance of policy and regulation in supporting something like offshore wind and international transmission connections. To make offshore wind viable. What does that really need? That is that national policies, is that regional policies, is that global policies that we need to support that and other kinds of new technology investments?

[B]

Well, I think as Andrew mentioned, the focus is probably more national and regional now. Investments are real, infrastructure is real, and we are all looking to develop bankable projects. But I also would say that energy going forward will come from more sources and we probably see more hybrid solutions as well, where you combine different sources of energy and oil and gas is going to remain. But we need to make sure that it is much lower carbon than it is today, both at the production side but also on the consumption side. So that's something that's very important, but also for that to fly, if you like, you do need strong regulation. The challenge in many emerging countries is that the ability to regulate is not always there and it's not easy. If we look at the European context, we've had many reiterations of the European Emission Trading Scheme. It's not easy to regulate. And when technology is at perhaps different stages of maturity, you need to have different policy mechanisms. Where do you provide subsidies or tax breaks and where are the commercial models? And we see this on carbon capture and storage, for instance. There's been many different business models tried, some work, some not so well and others are still in the development. And here regulation is absolutely critical. So the regulators also need to have a full understanding of economics, but also on the technology and where it is at. So it's really important for industry to work with regulators more so than ever before. So I would say that the real hindrance perhaps to develop the energy systems we want for the future is the lack of fit for purpose regulation. But there is no perfect performer what it should look like. It really requires very much close collaboration between industry and decision makers. And if I may say again, because we hosted, not we, but Malaysia hosted the ASEAN Energy Ministerial here in Kuala Lumpur this week, you can see really much more closer engagement and alignment between the decision makers and industry. Everybody was here, from financiers all the way to developers and equipment suppliers. And we coming together and trying to figure out what would work here and now and also in the future.

[A]

Right, you mentioned financiers because again, when I think about obstacles and barriers to getting this investment in low carbon energy, other kinds of new energy technologies, finance seems to be a crucial issue. Raising finance is really difficult. We've had a big push at the global level in successive cops to try and mobilize finance for investment in low carbon Technology in low and middle income countries, it does not seem to have been entirely successful. There's been some progress, but it certainly hasn't lived up to the hopes I think that a lot of people in those countries would have had for it. Is the finance there? Is it available and if not, what needs to happen to make it available?

[B]

Financing needs are very nation specific. But I also believe that if you have well defined projects, finance will find it. But to develop these projects you need capacity building. And this is something that Petronas holds very dear to our hearts. So a few years ago we launched something called the Methane Leadership Program with the other national oil companies in the region. And this is really to build capacity and capability to develop those projects so that they are bankable. Now where do you need finance? Typically it is for some studies to see what is feasible, what's not feasible. And here we've had great support, for instance from the Japanese government government for projects here in Southeast Asia. Then after that there are opportunities to develop bankable projects. And I think there's a lot of learnings to be had from other parts of the world where they have managed, for instance, to finance commercially financed carbon capture and storage. In my mind, cost of technology is important and then markets will find its place. So once you have real commercial business models, then I think we have a good system. No bilateral donor money will ever be sufficient to develop the next generation of energy system that we need.

[A]

Right. Thank you. So look, let's cast our eyes, let's say maybe 10 years ahead and think about where some of these trends are going. Then maybe. Charlotte, get your thoughts on this first. Where are we going to be? Where could we hope to be by 2035?

[B]

I think much progress would have been made in 10 years time. We already see it. I've been living here in Malaysia just under five years and I've seen the development even in Petronas. We used to be an oil and gas company five years ago and today we have a much more broader offering of renewables. We're also working on hydrogen, bio based fuels and so much more. But if we take Malaysia, which is an emerging market, as I mentioned before, Malaysia has a national energy transition roadmap and it sets six energy transition levers. And Petronas is part of this effort. So it's sort of like demonstrator projects to take us into the future. And carbon capture and storage is one of those that we're very supportive of. And biofuels is another one as well as hydrogen. At the same time, the country is also developing a Climate Change act which is in the works. And we also have the Climate Change Policy 2.0 that was launched earlier this year. So all of this will sort of policy will be more aligned and also give us a signal for investors of where the country is going. And I think this will fast track the development as well as with technology prices coming down. And this is true for all emerging markets. I believe that technology, as prices come down, there will be a development in this direction in many, many countries. But policy is kind of key and critical and I feel here in Malaysia it's becoming very much aligned, but it's perhaps not true for all of the countries there. And this is where the capacity and capability support needs to come through from those multinational agreements. So pardon me, from the multilateral agreements that are negotiated every year through the COP process.

[A]

Yeah, got it. Thanks. So Andrew, what do you think the Middle east in ten years from now?

[C]

Well, maybe to broaden it slightly, Ed, to think about it in global terms only, because when we do an interesting study, we've been working with the World Economic forum for some 25 years now and we have a particular role in working with them on the energy Transition Index. I think as Charlotte says, what's always reassuring is that underneath all the noise actually system performance continues to improve and actually sustainability continues an upward climb. I think what we focused on a lot today is maybe the component of the security of the system. And I think if we can see that the energy mix continues to broaden and the import exposure can be managed, I think we will see progression on security. I think linked to that the acceleration of infrastructure build out and development. I think particularly as I say on grid first basis that will enable even further acceleration to renewables and storage deployment and that will create the flexibility in the power systems that will sit alongside an electron and a molecule based system that will reduce congestion and curtailment. So I'm positive that these features and facets will develop inevitably when world order and geopolitics gets in the way. These are typically some of the things that have been interrupted along with supply chains and trade frictions that we need to alleviate.

[A]

Yeah, no, good point, good point. So as I was saying at the beginning, this is a podcast looking ahead to Adepec. I think you're both going to the conference, aren't you? I'm interested in hearing what you want to hear at the conference and also what message you would like to leave other people with. What do you think they should be taking away from the event? Maybe Andrew, start with you on that. What do you think?

[C]

ADEPEC is an amazing event. I've been coming here for over 10 years now and it's evolved incredibly. I'm always intrigued to see who the new players are that arrive and participate. Last year we saw the emergence of the hyperscalers and many of the gen AI companies not just, just as technology providers to the industry, but actually as energy consumers and maybe even increasingly energy players. That was fascinating to see. I think with that comes the emergence of new opportunities. So I'm again always interested to see technically, geographically and collaboratively what's emerging and finally who's going to lead the way from a financial, political and willingness perspective. So those are the things that I'll be looking out for for sure. I'm delighted to say I'll be hosting a roundtable looking at the future of molecules at the event and I think what we'll really be trying to drill into is very specifically where are the market opportunities from a local perspective? How does that come together in terms of integration and what's the range of participants we need in those new molecular value chains and what particular innovations are going to new molecules viable into the future and how do we connect supply and demand in that context?

[A]

So Charlotte, what about you? What do you want to hear and what do you want people to hear from you?

[B]

So as Andrew said, ADIPEC is the most tremendous event, must be one of the biggest conferences in the world. So what I really would like to hear is what are the bankable business models for new energy value chains? So we're talking hydrogen hybrid solutions, mixing various energy sources, CCS and so on. I think that would be very interesting to hear. I'm expecting to see more bankers perhaps at effect this year to talk to that point. And then also how do you balance current energy investments into the existing energy system with sort of long term decarbonized energy pathways? Because there's been a lot of talk about backtracking and so on. But of course the needs of today are not the same as needs of tomorrow. So that'd be interesting to hear about that. But I also want to hear some visionary and provocative perspectives that challenge industry norms and mainstream views. So I hope people will come armed with a lot of thoughts and opinions that we can then battle out at the various panels. My message is perhaps to adipek. We just need to share our paper, progress and exchange innovative ideas and deepen our collaboration. We need to collaborate like never before, but also across sectors and ADIPEC really lends itself very well for that because it brings in different sectors around the energy challenge. So I would say deepening collaboration is absolutely key. And finally, of course me and my colleagues, we are warmly welcoming you to the Petronas Exhibition Pavilion at adipec. So do come over and I think there might be a coffee machine and a few baristas to welcoming you there.

[A]

Well, that sounds fantastic. Thanks very much indeed and I definitely look forward to seeing you both again there. Unfortunately now we do have to leave it but it's been fantastic talking to you both. Thanks very much Charlotte.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[A]

Thank you very much Andrew.

[C]

Thank you Ed.

[A]

Thanks very much to our producers Stuart Duffy, Toby Biggins, Gilchrist and Dan Cottrell and above all, as ever, many thanks to all of you for listening. We really value your feedback. Please do keep that coming and we'll be back soon with all the latest news and views on the future of energy. Until then, good.