This week, Jennifer and Kati sit down with Joel Makower, chairman and co-founder of Trellis Group, for a candid conversation about the current state of sustainability communications after 35+ years in the field.

Joel shares why we're living with higher highs and lower lows than ever before. We explore the trust crisis affecting not just sustainability, but business, media, science and government — and what it means for communicators trying to make the case for climate action.

Joel also offers his advice for integrating head and heart through storytelling, how to reframe sustainability as "better" rather than sacrifice, and why ESG became a political landmine while the s-word endures.

Have a question for us? Email us today at engagingesg@gmail.com!

Learn more about Engaging ESG at bit.ly/EngagingESGpod.

Show Links

Learn more about Joel Makower

Visit Trellis

Watch: Joel Makower: Poetry in Motion

Listen: Smartless

Listen: So Many Steves: Afternoons with Steve Martin

Our theme music is "Lost in Translation" by Wendy Marcini and Elvin Vangard.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices