← Equipped for Life Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome back to the Equip for Life podcast. I am here with Emily Geiger and also a special guest friend of the pod returning guest, which doesn't happen that often over here unless you're Monica Snyder. Ali Rack is here. Ali was on one of the top contenders of Equip for Life podcast episodes. When we did our 100th episode recently, we all had to pick our favorite podcast and Emily had picked up your episode.
- [00:28]
B
This is mine. This is my favorite episode. Oh, wow. I remember vividly listening to that episode when I was in college. Like, that was back before I ever worked at eri. I listened to that episode and I was just completely mind blown because I knew nothing about, like the political realm of doing pro life advocacy, about lobbying, about any of that stuff. And you just, you made it so doable. Like, you explained it to me in a way that got me excited about it as a person who had never been excited about that before. And that's why I was like, everyone needs to go. Literally. I send so many of our affiliate groups that I mentor that are interested in doing a little bit of lobbying. I send them to your podcast because I'm like, this is the masterclass right here on like, how to do it, how to get your members excited about it. So anyways, that's why, that's why it's my favorite. And I'm very excited that we're getting to do this because I have never actually gotten to be on a podcast with. No, I've only listened to you on a podcast. So this is going to be fun.
- [01:18]
A
Yeah. So I reached out to Ali because I reached out to everybody that we featured on that podcast and be like, hey, you know, I hope your ears were burning or whatever, you know, that kind of thing. And we ended up deciding, hey, let's have Ali back. Ali and I just hung out together like a couple of months ago when I was up in D.C. and kind of talking about just a lot of the. You're still really busy up there, but you're doing some things differently now than you were several years ago when we had you on the podcast. So why don't you catch us up on what you've been doing, what you've been working on, what you were seeing, and let's just have an interesting conversation.
- [01:52]
C
Sounds good. It was five years ago that we did that podcast.
- [01:56]
A
Five years ago. I think almost five years ago.
- [01:59]
B
I mean, that makes sense because I'm about to hit my five year anniversary.
- [02:02]
C
Eri, it was, it was during. I know it was during you know, the COVID mania. We, I had a lot of time on my. But it's funny because the podcast itself was like at least a year in the making because it was like over burgers and fries with Rachel that you were like, we need to have you on the podcast. Like, if we could just make 100 allies, we could outlaw abortion. You know, so that was, the motivation was like, all right, what's my secret sauce? My secret sauce is like untapped citizen potential. Right. So in 2020, really before the world shut down, we had, you know, killed our abortion amendment in Maryland. Of course, that came back a few times and we, we killed it in 2021. But in 2022, it passed the legislature. It went on the ballot in 2024. I actually led a ballot initiative committee at the time that was a registered, you know, campaign finance entity. Raised money, did what we could, you know, but completely outgunned, obviously, in Maryland. So we already had extremely permissive abortion laws in Maryland. We kind of wrote the script in the 90s for all trimester abortions. And we just codified that, unfortunately into our state constitution for our side. It was not even a respectable finish. It was like 75, 25 was the final vote. So I actually, last year, just about a year ago now, I've just passed my one year anniversary. I completely moved into the political space professionally. I am the Maryland state director for the state Freedom Caucus Network. We have.
- [03:39]
A
Congratulations.
- [03:40]
C
Thank you. We have 13 states with freedom caucuses in their state legislature. So this is a cool position where I get to marry kind of my like policy wonkiness with my activism and then I get to supercharge a couple of state legislators. Not more than a couple, seven state legislators in my state to really hold their own party and, you know, the legislature as a whole to principles and standards. Right. And so we are bold and standing up for all things conservative. But of course that includes the right to life, so. Which was a huge motivation for me to take this position. But why I said you should have me on again. I'd love to update your listeners on what's going on in the state legislatures.
- [04:29]
A
Yeah.
- [04:30]
C
Now that RO has been overturned and we are in this post Dobbs world,
- [04:34]
A
I'm assuming like we've won. Everything is over. Right. Like we don't have anything more we need to do. Roe got over a turn. We've, we've like, we can all go home right now, right?
- [04:46]
C
No, not so much. In fact, some of us who will live in reality, which I'm hoping your Listeners will all come to reality is that we're, we're doing maybe worse than we were before deaths. Now we're doing better in some states. In some states, they've effectively outlawed abortion in some states, or they've gotten really close with heartbeat legislation. What's interesting is there were, I think I once heard a figure of like 34 states that as soon as Roe was overturned, we're going to outlaw abortion. That's how fast it was going to be. And even in 2018, 2019, the abortion lobby did see the writing on the wall. They saw the makeup of states. The Supreme Court was changing. They knew years before Amy Coney Barrett was confirmed that she was the next on the list and that she would absolutely vote for an overturn. So what did the abortion lobby do to get ready for that moment? They started strengthening and expanding in the states where they already had safe havens. You know, we saw it in 20, I believe it was 2019, maybe the RHA in New York, that was the one that, you know, made huge headlines. And then Illinois and you know, all these other states again, Maryland, Ireland, started ramping up their amendment fight in 2019. That was the first iteration that we saw of it in the state legislature. And that's what they, they knew. That's what we have to go for. We have to go for constitutional rights to abortion in the state constitutions because those are going to survive federal legislation and things like that. So what we're seeing is, unfortunately, I think a lot of the pro life movement was caught flat footed in states where we thought we had, quote, unquote, safe legislatures. And even in those states, we're seeing abortion rights expanded, you know.
- [06:37]
A
Interesting.
- [06:38]
C
Yeah.
- [06:38]
A
So like, all the states that seemed safe turned out, like, were any states safe, if you will, from this perspective, I don't pay nearly as much attention to the state battles as you do. Like, we don't have someone on staff with a big map that's tracking everything all the time. Like, we would love to have that many staff members, but we don't. So I'm not tracking. So it seems to me from my perspective, from like, what I am seeing is whenever it goes to a state battle and it goes to a ballot initiative, the pro life side loses like basically every time. I think it's like maybe Florida, it's
- [07:16]
C
only because of their threshold they worry about, you know, the hard cases. Right. So what we're seeing is we're losing the argument on late term versus heartbeat. So that's kind of what happened in Ohio. Right. What was waiting in the wings in Ohio was a heartbeat bill that was being held up in the courts. And so that's what the voters heard. They heard a woman will have absolutely no access to abortion versus she can have access to abortion through all nine months. And this is the sad reality. The voters chose extreme abortion over what they believed was extremism in the pro life side was the heartbeat. So you know, and that's not me saying the pro life side needs to give up on ending abortion, but I'm just saying, right. That's where the electorate is right now. And so you have to measure with reality. So what happened in Ohio? They tried to change the threshold that would change their constitution. It was a 50 plus one. They spent their entire summer trying to get people out for a special election to change the threshold to 60% because they knew they could win. They could probably kill the, the abortion amendment if the threshold was that voters had to reach 60%. What was the net effect? A lot of people came out for that special election thinking that was the abortion amendment.
- [08:38]
B
Right.
- [08:38]
C
And unfortunately conservative right leaning pro life voters don't show up on off cycle or special elections. So they wasted all their time door knocking fundraising for that threshold election. Polling after Ohio in 2023 showed that most voters had made their mind up by Labor Day.
- [09:00]
A
I didn't even know about that trend you just mentioned. It used to say that pro lifers don't tend to vote in special elections
- [09:06]
C
or off year election just because pro life voters tend to be conservative voters. Republican voters and Republicans fail over and over in special elections. They need, you know, they see election day in a regular cycle as a duty. Right. Especially presidential elections. But even midterm elections, it's very hard. It's all about turnout.
- [09:29]
A
Does it feel more local politics to them and they're less focused on the local than the federal?
- [09:35]
C
That could be. That could be. They are also, I mean even midterm races don't go as well. Turnout isn't as good, you know, all across the board. But they need a driving factor. Right. And so the pro choice side right now is absolutely more motivated to keep their rights than the pro life side is to protect tiny human beings. Right. So that's, that was Ohio's loss. Michigan law, similar. We're talking tens of millions that were spent on these races. In Florida though, they already had that 60% vote threshold baked into their constitution. And so some differences in Florida that made it possible to win. And so here's number one thing that we can start to Write notes on their governor got involved. Ron DeSantis was vocal about Amendment 4 in Florida. And you've got, you know, a very, very popular governor in a red state coming out and saying, we have to defeat this legislation or we have to defeat this measure. Right. So that's huge. I mean, you can't pay a spokesman, you know, as much as the political capital of a governor. Their voters still voted 54%, I think if. I mean, I'd have to look it up to be sure. But it was like 54% of voters voted for Amendment 4. It died because they didn't reach 60%. But still, 54% of Floridians think that abortion should be legal through what their amendment said, which would have wildly expanded it. The pro life movement. For instance, when Maryland passed their legislation to put it on the ballot in 2022, we were the only state at the time. By the time we got to 2024, there were 11. So what happens there? The pro life movement is completely outgunned. They're out fundraised, they're out manned. You know, even though we have grassroots, they're, you know, scattered or distracted or whatever it is. There were no national leaders, resources coming to my state. They do this political calculus where they say, you know, Maryland's a lost cause, we're gonna let them lose. So then they put all their time and attention on, you know, Florida, Missouri, those.
- [11:40]
A
They're doing like triage, right.
- [11:42]
C
And so, you know, they didn't win in Missouri either. You know, Florida was the only quote, unquote win. So. So this is a very winning strategy for the abortion lobby right now. And their petition referred to Josh and Emily. They can knock on doors, collect signatures, and force it on the ballot in even a quote unquote safe red state, which they have multiple times at this point.
- [12:07]
A
So I've got so many questions. Okay, so what do you attribute that flat footedness or the fact that we're losing so much? Do you feel like on one hand you've got a bunch of, you know, maybe like, you know, so called pro life name only politicians that sort of got like caught with, you know, the emperor has no clothes once. Once they've actually got to like do something or not. That could be part of it. But then it seems like that's probably not all of it. It's part of it. Like a lot of the people that we thought of as pro life are not tending to vote, like for full on abortion bans. Talk to me.
- [12:43]
C
Okay, great question. So, number one, yes, of Course, there's pro life and name only politicians out there. And because this fight is in the states, that's where they are. You know, there's plenty of them in Congress.
- [12:54]
B
Right, right.
- [12:54]
C
Here's the thing. State legislators loved the COVID of Roe v. Wade because they could over and
- [13:01]
B
they didn't have to do anything and they could just be like, well, it's irrelevant.
- [13:05]
A
I'm doing my best.
- [13:06]
C
They could put in irrelevant legislation year after year to fundraise on to prove their pro life bona fides and they didn't actually have to deal with this question. So what happened is, yes, there are some pro life in name only. There's also people who are scared of electoral consequences. Right. So the same tactics I taught on the first podcast that I came on, you know, citizen pressure, volume of response and those sorts of things. Why do those work? Do they only work for pro life people? No, they work for everyone. So the pro choice side is able to activate tons and tons of people for phone calls, getting into the state capitals of that sort of thing. The other thing about it was the national parties. The Republicans at the congressional and Senate level started to feel the fire of state consequences. So you know, South Carolina was looking at a heartbeat bill and you got the South Carolinian, you know, congressional legislation saying you're going to kill us in the midterms if you pass this at the state. Because voters don't think, oh, that's just state politics. That has nothing to do with my congressman. Yeah, it's all relevant.
- [14:15]
B
It's all wrapped up together.
- [14:16]
C
So then they start to work in South Carolina to moderate their heartbeat. But well, you know what guys, let's cut it off at 12 weeks. Which us pro lifers, we know that's where the majority of abortions happen. So for us pro life people, we're like, that's Nothing. Or the 15 week legislation that was the brainchild of some pro life groups I won't name, you know, like 15 weeks. That's everything. That's the whole. Most of it.
- [14:44]
B
The vast majority.
- [14:45]
C
Yeah. You're basically protecting abortion. You're codifying Roe at the state level or the federal level. That's what you want to do. That's one. And then the second one you asked was like pro life people. It's interesting, I have some friends in the progressive anti abortion space who, you know, went and did activism at both the RRNC and the DNC in 2024 and were shocked at. While no one really agreed with them at the dnc, they had good conversations with people, you know, talking about things that they agreed on or, you know, parts of the pro life movement that reach them, you know, for compassion and human dignity. But at the rnc, they got more and it was women who were horrible to them and nasty and violent. And I think that a lot of women kind of went along with the pro life movement, you know, because in theory, you know, when everything was theoretical post Roe, it felt like it was never really going to be possible, that abortion would never be an option for a woman. And that actually scared them. We're not, the pro life movement isn't really talking to those women who were on our side. Does that make sense?
- [16:02]
B
Yeah, it's a lot harder when it is an actual reality. We're talking about that we are no longer making abortion available for you, slash your daughter, slash your friends, women in your community. It's not that they like abortion.
- [16:18]
C
Right.
- [16:18]
B
It's that they want it to happen very infrequently, but they don't want it to be just like a complete non, non option at all.
- [16:27]
C
It's scary.
- [16:27]
B
Like, it's scary to be willing to go that far.
- [16:30]
C
Yeah, I had that same gut check for myself. And it's like I'm motivated to completely end abortion. Like, I'm not. Like, I was happy with a, you know, a quiet life and now I'm an activist, like, and it's because of abortion. I mean, in this, these are conversations that we can't keep in the shadows anymore. We have to reconcile that ending abortion does mean ending what women relied on for 50 years as a backup, you know, or in the hard cases, that kind of last resort to save their lives or whatever, save their dignity. There's, there's many reasons. We know women choose later abortions or they choose abortions because of hard circumstances. So that kind of leads to one thing that the pro life movement has to reconcile with is that we very much lack compassion. And a lot of our talking points are not, you know, we have the best arguments, we have the best philosophy. You guys are, that's what you do. You make arguments all day long and they're so rock solid, you know, And I'm not saying you guys are one of the most compassionate groups. So it's not, this is not focused at eri, but pro life people do not always represent themselves well in the public space, and that matters. You can have the best argument. And if people don't like you or they think that you are a jerk, they are going to associate your entire movement with you. So, yep, that's one thing.
- [17:59]
A
Or if the presumed political leader of your movement is Trump, then a lot of people will attach a lot of your movement to him. Like you got both of those things going on.
- [18:12]
C
Absolutely.
- [18:12]
A
I've got another question. I still want to understand why we were so flat footed. This is like the autopsy question. I've had multiple donors tell me I'm disgusted by the failure of the national pro life movement to like pivot in response to Dobbs. I don't understand what's wrong with everybody. And I'm like, well, they're not listening to me. I hear you. That kind of thing, you know. And so like, I think I know probably one of them, as you kind of think. But I'm interested in any kind of thoughts you have on, like, what is it? If we could have done it differently, could things have been better? But I remember in 2020 when I went to Ire, I was worried about the life of the mother thing. Like, that was when I really dug into the Savita Halopinavar case, the woman who died in Ireland. And then pretty soon abortion became legal. And a lot of that had to do with her case of medical malpractice. And just thinking like, there is no reason why this wouldn't happen in America if Roe ever got overturned. Which I didn't think it would, but if it ever did, I was like, there already had been a case, I think in Phoenix, in a Catholic hospital decades ago that was kind of along those lines. So it was like, boy, if there is one thing the pro life movement could sort of be like privately, like kind of working on, it would be how do we solve this problem? Because I don't know the solution, but why would this not happen? And then here we are. So it's like, there's one area that I can tell you, pro life leaders, we're not thinking enough about the details of what this would actually look like. Can you think of any other kind of things? Or why were we so flexible? Why are we losing so much?
- [19:50]
C
Okay, I actually, there's like an article that I want to write in my head and there's three aspects of the pro life movement. I believe there are pro life people. That's the biggest pot. Those are the people that claim anywhere between I think abortion should be limited to somewhere in the first trimester to abortion should be completely illegal. Now, the pro life movement might not say that that person is pro life. Right. Because we're a little too pure.
- [20:20]
B
But, but there's people who would call themselves pro life people. Who don't like abortion kind of all fall that.
- [20:27]
C
And they would vote for a politician that said they'd make abortion illegal, you know, because for them it shouldn't be just widely available. Right. Okay.
- [20:37]
B
It shouldn't be used as birth control.
- [20:38]
C
Yes.
- [20:38]
B
You hear that a lot from the average.
- [20:40]
C
Yes. Okay, so that's a really good point. In that pot of people, you have all kinds of personalities and flavors, right. You have nasty people who say women should just keep their legs closed, you know, and like, you have really, really kind, compassionate, like pregnancy center volunteers. You know, you have sidewalk counselors. They're kind of the next tier that I'm talking about. But, you know, they might go pray at the clinic. They're going to donate to the baby bottle fund and all that. Okay, so that's a huge bucket. That's the people that used to vote pro life. Okay? The pro life people. The next layer is the pro life movement that we are in. So we're in an organization, we're doing pointed pro life work. So that's either pregnancy center work, sidewalk counseling, apologetics, you know, even the political sphere. Right. For life, the live action, the life. All of that is the pro life movement. These people have a level of knowledge. We are the thought leaders in this space. We're the ones thinking about how to convince others to be pro life. We are the ones doing pro life things. These are the people that know or should know, you know, what really we need to do, you know, next and
- [21:58]
B
should be brainstorming and working together to figure out what we need to do next.
- [22:00]
C
That's true. Yeah. And have enough influence. Right. And then. Right. Who do you think the third tier, like the next bucket, is the people that actually make the laws.
- [22:09]
A
You name the two that I was thinking of.
- [22:11]
C
Who?
- [22:12]
B
The people who actually make the laws.
- [22:13]
C
Yes, the pro life.
- [22:14]
A
The politicians.
- [22:15]
B
Fix politicians. Okay. All right.
- [22:17]
C
So you have people with diverse opinions down here in this big bucket who have pro life views and tend to vote pro life. You have the movement that's got the knowledge and the experience. You have the politicians who also range from actually really motivated to end abortion, like a few of them. And I am a Republican, so I have to be pro life because I'm from, you know, Wyoming.
- [22:43]
A
My party platform says, or used to
- [22:46]
C
say, who are really the face of the movement, the ones that express, you know, what it is to be pro life, it's the politicians. They're the ones with the biggest mouthpiece. They're the ones that are listened to by the biggest bucket. Right. And they're terrible.
- [23:05]
A
Yeah. So like then when Todd Aiken goes
- [23:07]
C
and says something crazy or even honestly, like, Marco Rubio has always been pretty solid on pro life stuff. And I remember like Scott Walker Back in 2016, he was the Wisconsin. He's from Wisconsin. Those guys were really good. They were like, you knew they were actually pro life. Right. But they get 30 seconds and I don't think they say the best thing. And they're also not really good at like pivoting away. They get caught in gotcha moments all the time. And so that's really why I think we're flat footed, because like I said, Ron DeSantis was the face of the Amendment 4 fight. He's the highest up there and they got the best results from that.
- [23:44]
A
You're just not gonna get that very often. Yeah, like, Ron DeSantis is a very, is an outlier unicorn.
- [23:51]
C
Yes, yes, exactly.
- [23:53]
A
So, like, I don't agree with him on everything, but, but like what you're saying, like, he did defend the pro life thing and that's just not something you're gonna see.
- [24:02]
B
But also, like, governors are not gonna do that.
- [24:04]
C
Yeah. So also pro life people, we think they're super tuned in with the pro life movement, but also remember, while the politicians are kind of our mouthpiece, the most visible aspect kind of are the people you talk to, the who you see commenting on social media. So unfortunately, like kind of the other side or even the mushy middle look at who represents the pro life movement. And they think it's the people. They consider the people the pro life movement. I don't, I think the pro life movement and those who are working in the pro life space and there's just this huge disconnect. And so I don't know necessarily how exactly we go about solving it, but I know acknowledging that there's a huge disconnect and that there's kind of these three layers of being pro life would be a good start.
- [24:51]
A
So what kind of work have you been doing since Dobbs? Like, what is it that you're doing now and what is it like that you've figured out that you need to do differently because things are different now than they were five years ago.
- [25:04]
C
So it's totally going to depend on where you are. Right. So I'm going to start with conservative red states. Okay. Because I actually asked, my colleagues in the State Freedom Caucus Network said, I'm going to be on this podcast. I'm going to be on this podcast because some of them are working in red States. You know, we're in South Carolina, we're in Missouri, we're in Wyoming, we're in South Dakota, we're in Montana. So, you know, you guys who are in red states, what would you like the pro life movement to know? And they want you to know that you cannot take for granted that you live in a red state, that you still have to pressure your, your legislators, your reps, you know, you still have to do everything I said in that podcast in 2020, you have to do it on your own side. That's basically what they wanted to say. Like, you have to hold your representatives who claim a pro life mantle. You have to hold them accountable. You have to show up still, you cannot think the work was done and there's nothing left to do because the next thing you know, the abortion lobby will have organized with millions of dollars, tons of people, to door knock, put abortion on the ballot. And it is going to lose every time right now because we have an image problem in the pro life movement. We have an extremism problem. I mean, it's not a problem because it's ending abortion, but that's how people view us. They view us as the new extremists. You can't stop being involved just because you live in a safe red state. Okay, so that's one. And you have to fight like, like h e double hockey sticks. If you get wind that a ballot initiative is coming to your state and you need to work to end it. Okay. Because it's losing everywhere. So that's one. If you're in a red state, you have a lot of work to do. Okay. If you're in a blue state like mine, this is actually where I think. And this is. My husband and I worked on the ballot initiative committee together. We think the pro life movement in this state needs to take a step back and really think, okay, like, ooh, say more.
- [27:04]
A
Okay, that's interesting.
- [27:05]
C
I don't know if a lot of people know this. There's a lot of internal politics in the pro life movement. There's a lot of backstabbing, there's a lot of ego, there's a lot of corporatism.
- [27:18]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [27:19]
C
You know, there might be a little bit of, hey, if abortion's illegal, maybe I won't have a job anymore. So that might be subconscious, I don't know. But I didn't get my ballot issue committee up and running till the last three months, which I knew was not enough time. But I cannot be still, you know, I just cannot sit and let things Go wrong. We control only what we could control. So we went to our local fair and we phone banked. We did a lot. My husband was on the phone hours and hours a day for like 10 weeks.
- [27:48]
A
It's impressive.
- [27:49]
B
Yeah, that is impressive.
- [27:50]
C
It was impressive. And what. But we noticed. You guys are not going to be shocked by this. When we spoke to people face to face, they were extremely reasonable and they were extremely horrified at the idea of third trimester abortion being enshrined in our state constitution. But the common refrain was, we had no idea this was coming. We had no idea the laws in this state were already so extreme. Over and over, the refrain was, we had no idea. One of the best conversations I had was at our fair and I had our fetal models, you know, out in front of us, and it was a woman and I'm guessing her friend. While I was talking, a small kind of group formed. And I was able to take, I would say, five minutes with this group. You know, they looked and they said, isn't abortion illegal now that Roe has overturned? This is a common refrain, folks. Is. This is.
- [28:42]
B
I hear this too.
- [28:44]
C
And I said, no, it isn't. In fact, our laws in Maryland were designed to survive an overturn of Roe vs. Wade.
- [28:54]
A
That's a good way to word that. I really liked the way that you worded that.
- [28:57]
C
And I said, what we have, you know, and they were like, oh, really? So when I explained that it's because of the health exception that we have, the doctors can find any reason to have an abortion. And I pointed to the 26 week model, and I said, you and I might disagree on where the line should be, but I have a feeling we agree it's not here. And I pointed to the 26 week, and they were like, yeah, definitely. And then I took my hand out, you know, for the amendment. I said, they really want to make it worse? And I handed it to them. And these women were mothers of teenage daughters. So I said, you know, this is going to make it so that your daughters can consent, you know, without you being there. And I go, you might even disagree with me that you might want your daughter to have access to abortion, But I think, think you'd want to be there for her if she's making this decision and this is going to take it away from her. And they were like, yeah, I don't, I don't like this at all. What can we do? You know, like what? But these are not people. We're turning into activists, okay? These are people. I. We had a Good conversation with. And then they walked away. Maybe they'll tell one friend, maybe they'll vote no when they get in there. I don't know. But I know, I know that they are going to think about our conversation long after they walked away way because they had a great conversation. We had points of agreement and we settled on what we do agree with, which is our laws are too extreme. That person is indicative of the entire state of Maryland that even pro life people. I was once sitting with a fellow Right to Life chapter leader who thought the law somehow barred anyone under the age of 12 from getting an abortion. Like, where did you even make that up from? That's not even a thing, you know, but that's, that's the kind of things that even pro lifers, you know, just kind of. They hear it from somebody. Oh yeah, don't we have. You have to have an ultrasound in this state, right? And it's like, no, we don't have to do that here. So that's where I say, my husband and I said the pro life movement needs to take a step back and we need to focus on education. We have to focus on just telling people what the law is right now. No fluff, no extremism. This is what it is right now. And if you agree with me me that that is too extreme, then let's do something about it. But we are not going to do that without face to face, person to person outreach. And we know that that takes way more time and effort. I mean, my husband is literally wants to, you know, we have our own little pro life organization now, but he wants to grow it into like literally phone banking. He's like, what if we just took the voter list like we did for an election, but we called people all year round and had, you know, or knocked on doors all year round, just, hey, we're out here just educating you on what the laws are. And we truly think there's no level of just trying to ram things in or, or push for dismemberment bans or things like that. There's no amount of that that's going to change the people. Right. This biggest bucket down here, those people have to change first before we can change the laws in a state like this or.
- [32:10]
B
Right.
- [32:11]
C
For people who identify with a party that has, you know, abortion throughout trimesters enshrined in their party platform.
- [32:17]
B
And most people don't know that's the case. Most people have no idea that that's the case. Okay, so what I'm hearing is that the Abortion lobby is focusing really heavily on these constitutional amendments in states right now. Once they've got that, which they seem to be getting in pretty much every state they try, like what's their next move? What do we need to be prepared for? Because are they just done there somehow? I'm skeptical that they would just be done there, but I don't know where they would go next once they've already got a state.
- [32:44]
C
Yeah, they're just so, you know, they're never going to stop. You know, just.
- [32:48]
B
Why did I had a feeling you were going to say that?
- [32:49]
C
I mean, did they stop after first trimester, after they got that legalized? No, they want, you know, late term abortion and everywhere. So what's sad is we are seeing that they're not letting up, especially in states like mine, in safe, you know, blue states, they're coming for more. So once they've got abortion legalized through all nine months, well, someone's got to pay for this. Right. So we're seeing taxpayer initiatives and that sort of thing in my state. Maryland passed a first of its kind of abortion fund this last year. So expect this. Yes. Expect this to be replicated in your states. The Affordable Care act, when it was going through all those levels of negotiation. You know, of course the Democrats wanted abortion care in all of these ACA plans, but that had a lot of constitutional challenges, obviously with religious employers and things like that. So the compromise that they came to was that they wouldn't make the plans cover it, but they would make them collect. And if they could ever find a way to cover abortion without violating, you know, conscience rights of the employers that purchase from them or something like that, then they would, they would use these funds that they had collected. So they collect a dollar every month for every exchange plan. So if you're on the exchanges, you need to look for this. This is a dollar a month they've been collecting for a decade. And Maryland figured out, well, we are going to enact an abortion fund, tap those ACA collected funds have been sitting, they've been sitting for this purpose for a purpose of abortion. And how are they going to distribute them? So now we have a 20 million dollar fund in Maryland for people who can't afford their abortions. And unfortunately, of course they try to put amendments on it to limit it to Maryland, but no.
- [34:45]
B
Right. Yeah. Can I, can I apply for the abortion fund even though I don't live in Maryland?
- [34:50]
C
Yes.
- [34:50]
B
And it'll like pay me to be able to go to Maryland.
- [34:53]
C
Yes, it'll pay your Travel costs, it'll pay for the cost of the abortion itself. You know, travel back, post op care, that sort of thing. So while the pro life movement in Maryland, you know, they testified, they came out, we do have some really solid pro life legislators in the Maryland General Assembly. I want to give a shout out to Delegate Wyvill. He's not in my caucus, but he, he will do any amendment you ask of him. And he stood up there and put like four amendments on this bill, defended them. You know, he just, he's great. He's fantastic. Amendments help you to have the floor fight. And over and over and over again, they just said, the people of Maryland voted for abortion and we are enacting the will of the people over and over again. But I just think that the, the people really thought. Because it's 2025, right? It's January, February of 2025. They're elated what just happened in November. Their gu. And even though he can't really, you know, help us in Maryland as much, there's this effect that our guy is in power and he's going to save this whole issue. Right. This is dangerous. This happened in 2016. I had a priest tell me in 2016, well, Trump's in office, he's going to get the Supreme Court and then abortion will be outlawed. Right? I'm like, no, like I said, our laws in Maryland were designed to survive that. They were designed in lots of other states to survive an overturn. So. So we're seeing that again in 2024, 2025 now headed into 2026, that there's this effect of my guy is in power. I don't have to work as hard.
- [36:31]
A
This is really interesting. So I hadn't thought about this before, but it's just like Bush W and Obama, like, neither of those guys were ever trying to claim to their people that they had solved any particular issue forever. Like, it's all good now. Obama never said, like, healthcare is sol all that we wanted. This was like, to them a total compromise. Right?
- [36:54]
C
Right.
- [36:55]
A
So you have a certain segment of Trump voters, and I'd seen videos of this in 2016, but I've seen videos more recently too. There are people that are expecting checks from Trump. Trump has promised them that. He's like, I'm gonna get a check in the mail for my guests or my house or whatever, or whatever's going on. It's just like Trump will make claims about, like, everything's good now, you won't have to vote again kind of a thing. If you vote for me. Like all these kinds of claims, Christians, get out and vote. Just this time, you won't have to do it anymore. Four more years. You know what? It'll be fixed. It'll be fine. You won't have to vote anymore. My beautiful Christians. I love you, Christians. I'm not Christian. I love you. Get out. You gotta get out and vote. In four years, you don't have to vote again. And I had never thought that. I wonder if that's like we were already worried when Dobbs happened about the pro lifers are being like, oh, this is the finish line, not the checkpoint kind of a thing. It seems like maybe if anything, the way that Trump talks to his demographic might have exacerbated that thing, might have made them lean more into. I can take my hands off the wheel. Like, I don't even need Jesus to take the wheel. Trump's got the wheel. It's not me.
- [38:20]
C
So not necessarily. This might surprise you. Okay.
- [38:24]
A
Yeah.
- [38:24]
C
So. And I voted for Trump. I don't want anybody to think like I'm making excuses or whatever. Okay. Like I work for a conservative organization, like, we're pro Trump or pro Republican. While holding Republicans to a standard is what we hope. Who elected Trump was not only like traditional Republican voters, there were, there was a coalition, but people don't know how to pivot. They think these number of people voted for the guy who said these things. Right. And some of them were pro life promises. And so we can count on that same number of people to support what we want. And that's not the case. There were plenty of pro choice voters who actually felt like they could tolerate his pro life overtures, his promises. You know, he did do some things in 2016 through 2020 that definitely advanced the pro life movement. I mean, overturning Roe was a big one.
- [39:22]
A
You know, he got three justices.
- [39:24]
C
Absolutely. So what they wanted from him as a president was more important than this other thing that they didn't like as much, you know?
- [39:34]
A
Right. Abortion wasn't the priority for a lot
- [39:36]
C
of the people who were for parts of this coalition. So we're actually seeing the same thing in like these special elections and these off cycle elections. Like I said, Republicans are kind of historically not great at turning out for them anyway. And they keep wondering why they haven't motivated the other aspects of the Trump coalition to come and vote for their guy. So that's kind of part of this recipe, Josh. Now, here's where I think the pro life movement needs to do a lot more people to People work is instead of trying to motivate that person that wasn't pro life to come vote for this pro life measure because Trump likes it. Come on, we're adults. Like, it's not that easy. What Trump likes is do it. You know, that does work with some
- [40:22]
A
people at this point. I can't even guarantee that he would like it, though. He would, like, fight against the Florida thing. He's the grandfather of ivf. Like, you don't even know with him at this point.
- [40:31]
C
But yeah, a big contingent of Trump's coalition that elected him was the anti war right and some in the left. And I think the pro life movement has a lot in common with the anti war movement. So I really think a strategy some people aren't gonna like, this is a more consistent life ethic in the pro life movement. Like, yes, we are motivated to end abortion. We're motivated. That. Why? Because human beings are important and they matter and they're the most important. Right. And they're also being killed in war and they're being killed by the drug trade. Like, they're being killed in, you know, violence on the streets and violence in the schools. And so I think there's a wild amount of untapped potential even in this, the attachment to the president and the movement right now. But you know what I mean, there's so many people that don't want to hear that. They just want to hear like, being pro life is a conservative value. And so we're just going to keep hammering that. It's like this is a totally different world. We are experiencing a political realignment. And the pro life movement should really try to work with that instead of against it. So. Yeah, but we're seeing the life issue is not a priority right now. And, and that's because Dobbs returned it to the states. And so the national politicians, including the president, are probably pretty content to not make it a federal fight again. And there is strategy in that as well. You know, we don't, of course, we don't want the people who disagree with us when they get in power to be able to continue use the unborn as political hockey puck. So, yeah, it's a complicated environment that we're in right now.
- [42:08]
A
I want to ask you a lobbying question. So a lot of people speaking of consistent life ethic, I think there's certainly a decent portion of our audience would fall in the consistent life ethic camp. And it's really hard for them to contact their politicians because they tend to like, if they're contacting Their pro life politician. They're pro life, but they probably wildly disagree with this person about immigration or LGBT issues or something like that, or vice versa. And so what advice would you give someone should they pick one issue at a time? If you're gonna make a call to this particular person today, you're only gonna focus on abortion and maybe you're gonna call back tomorrow and give them hell about immigration or whatever. What advice would you give for people who are trying to balance this thing of like, I want to be a strong pro life voice, but I also am wildly opposed to some of the other things that they. This person is doing or supports.
- [43:08]
C
Yeah. What you're talking right now is being politically savvy. Okay. And everyone could use a little bit more of this. Okay.
- [43:15]
A
Yes.
- [43:16]
C
And I use the phrase a lot knowing what time it is. Okay. I just, Ooh, I like that. You need to know what time it is. And you need to know when it's time to be urgent, when it's time to be uncompromising, when it's time to strike a reconciliation, like a conciliatory tone. Sorry, I was looking for the word. So I'm going to tell you, if your legislator is a part time legislator, which is most of the states and they have maybe 90 days they're in session, and this is something that I learned being on the inside now, rather than just being a citizen on the outside, your politician that you know is your guy, right. They're your guy on the life issue.
- [43:55]
A
Yeah.
- [43:56]
C
They also have to be an expert on energy policy, zoning, taxation, you know, affordability, budget deficits, you know, bureaucracy for those 90 days, which are breakneck speed, then if they're the minority party, like my legislators are, they're on defense for 90 days. You know, they are trying to kill bills, they are trying to raise the alarm. And they might see one pro life bill come to their committee, you know, it's never getting to the floor. Right. But it might be coming to their committee only. Only. So I'm going to tell you what. If you try to call on the first day of a legislative session to chat off the staffer's ear about the pro life measure you want, you know, to see or you think might be coming, you're going to get a thank you so much. I'm writing down your comments. If it comes to the floor, we'll take it into consideration. It would be better if you were calling them about something that's relevant. So I would say if you're trying to get a relationship basically with Your legislator, you want them to think of you when they are considering their votes, then you might call them up about immigration or you know, in the state legislatures are not really going to be any kind of war resolutions, you know. But Defend the Guard is an anti war measure. It's actually a bill that one of my legislators hold that is one that the pro life movement could get behind, you know, so you could call up your legislator and say, hey, I know we don't agree on a lot. I think your Defend the Guard bill will matches my values. How can I help you to pass the measure that you care about? And then when it comes time to kill the measure that's antithetical to your, what you, you hold dear, like the life issue, they're more going to be more inclined to listen because, okay, this is a reasonable person. This is a person who cares about something and also doesn't only care about, about what they want, you know. So I think, yeah, I want you
- [46:02]
A
to say more about the case. So that implies to me, if they're talking about someone who is willing to contact a particular office multiple times, they might remember them. They might actually create a reputation. Yes.
- [46:16]
C
And they do.
- [46:17]
A
Like we talk about this in relational apologetics.
- [46:19]
B
So they do.
- [46:20]
A
That's very relevant. That's very interesting.
- [46:23]
C
Yes, yes, yes. But do you want the reputation of the person that bugs and annoys?
- [46:30]
A
Right.
- [46:30]
C
Or do you want the reputation of the person who, you know, can be reasonable? I mean, politics is all about negotiation. You know, there was this, I think I might have told this story. The delegation that represents my county, they're all Democrats. Okay. There's almost nothing we agree on. They're all opposed to physician assisted suicide. Side though, you win some and you lose some. So I go into common ground. You know, I go into their office to talk about the abortion amendment and they're like, totally not okay with it. You know, they're not. But hey, hey, I'm also here to advocate against physician assisted suicide. And you know, all right, so there was a chief of staff for one of my legislators who knew me by name.
- [47:14]
A
So is there a reason not to flip that order? Why not start with the common ground thing? Like, hey, I'm here to talk about is this a suicide? And then afterwards it'll be like, I also also want to advocate against abortion.
- [47:26]
C
Yeah.
- [47:26]
A
Like would that potentially.
- [47:28]
C
Yeah, it's all, you know, it, it's, it's all being relatable and you know, yeah, you always kind of start with where you agree and then, you know, but I another one of my legislators, when we went in, we were there for life day. We had a few asks. You know, they were polite. They're always polite, you know, even when they don't disagree with you. But. But what happened was I had gone into my legislator's office. I said, I know that you're for abortion, but we're here to, you know, make this. And she bristled. I'm not for abortion. You know, I'm for choice. And she launched into her little. And I said, I hear that you're for choice. And something that happened to our pregnancy center last year was they were denied a grant by, you know, the local charitable trust simply because they were a pro life organization. And the other side of choice is life. And these people are trying to give that option to people. And for a lot of reasons. One being, you know, she didn't quite like who ran this charitable trust. So it piqued her interest, but she heard, okay. And she asked him, do you do parenting classes? You know, do you offer this. That this is before COVID So this got lost. But she said, when session is over, I'm going to visit your center and I'm going to write you a letter of support for your next grant application location.
- [48:44]
A
Yeah.
- [48:44]
C
Isn't that a win, too? That's a win. So you humanize the pro life movement to your pro choice politicians. When you go in there and you. You seem, you know, willing.
- [48:56]
B
Yeah.
- [48:56]
C
Now there's gonna be people that disagree with it and think everything's always confrontational, but it's not always confrontational.
- [49:03]
A
Yeah.
- [49:03]
B
Yeah. I think, to answer your question more directly, Josh, like, if you as a listener are someone who identifies more with that consistent life ethic direction, I feel like what Ali is just out there outlined is a really fantastic way to reach out to both your pro life politician, who you might disagree with about some other things, and your pro choice politician, who you might agree with about some other things, like using that model of coming in and starting with what you agree with and letting them know, hey, I support X. In the case of the pro life politician, hey, I'm pro life. I love what you've done on XYZ and how you supported this, or if it's on a different issue and you're talking to a pro choice politician and then flipping and saying, I am here. I would love to advocate for whatever the issue is you're wanting to advocate for with them. Like showing them it's the same as having dialogue on a college campus with a pro choice Person starting with that common ground. In many ways a consistent life ethic person has a little bit of an advantage because no matter who they're talking to have some piece of common ground they can start with that's very easy and big and obvious. You're not having to like search for it as hard. And then you can flip to the thing that you are wanting to talk to them about and it instantly humanizes you and makes you seem much more relatable to this congressman that you're talking to.
- [50:13]
C
Yeah. But I would say also I am speaking from a point of being in a minority situation, in a minority position. Right. If your politician is in the majority party in a red state and is not doing enough for life, my advice is going to be hold their feet to the fire, get in there and put your foot down. There's always a time and a place. Knowing what time it is. There is a time and a place.
- [50:37]
A
Very Ecclesiastes 3 When you are going
- [50:41]
C
to want to get in there.
- [50:42]
A
Peacemaking, there's a time for.
- [50:44]
C
Because I'm going to tell you, like my colleagues in the state Freedom Caucus network, my fellow state directors, they could really, really use some grassroots support from the pro life movement because right now people are, I mean, and it makes sense, they're focused on the kitchen table issues. Right. You know, life is unaffordable right now and people can't afford their. Can't afford homes. These are really important issues. But at the same time, if you have the ability to outlaw abortion or get it really close with heartbeat legislation or whatever, your pro life politicians in these states need you. They need you more than ever because they need to know if they're sticking their neck out, if they're going against the grain. And they are, they're fighting even their own party. They need to know you're going to be there for them when they do the right thing.
- [51:33]
A
I've got two things I want to follow up on. And then like anything else that Emily wants to ask you about, you mentioned early on about sometimes you're sort of in this position of holding ostensibly pro life politicians feet to the fire at least. What tips would you offer for people who like, at some point they're going to find themselves in that position that might for some people make them like not really want to have to do this, but like if they're gonna end up talking to someone who is kind of like they run on being pro life but aren't wanting to actually really back it up or do anything. What tips, what things should people do in that conversation? What things should they not do in that conversation?
- [52:10]
C
Ok, if you're gonna like screech and threaten, we're gonna run someone against you, you better do it, you know. So these politicians are absolutely terrified of electoral consequences and that is a lot of the reason why they're not standing on principle. That's one of the reasons that the state Freedom Caucus network even exists, is to hold people to the standards that they said, you know, when they ran. We need good principled, moral people, people to run. If your legislator is not doing what you want them to do, go find someone to challenge them, like back it up. So that's like one thing, but that's not for everybody. I understand, but that is one, that is one pressure point we're not really applying is at the state level it's a lot easier. It's a lot easier in, you know, a red state to challenge someone in a primary, you know, so those sorts of things, things, that's what you can do to hold their feet to the fire, be incessant with them, you know, organize, organize, organize phone calls, organize an in person visit. This is, I think the number of babies we could save if people were just like, you know, I'd love to go to that hearing or that rally, but I've got, you know, yoga on Tuesday nights and I just can't move it, you know. So yeah, yeah, you've got to be willing, you know, we need more people who are, are willing to kind of take on just a little bit more. But you'd be really surprised to know what just organizing a few dozen phone calls to an office can really be. But show up at those town halls, call in to their, you know, their virtual events or whatever, just, just be there. And if it can't always be you because that leads to burnout, find 10 friends, you know, and you all are going to split up all of the events for, you know, representative A and you're going to hold their feet to the fire. But I would say elections are the biggest thing they're afraid of. So if you can apply pressure on them to feel like they will lose their seat, that's your go to.
- [54:16]
A
Okay, this question is sort of on the opposite end of the spectrum from that one. So you said earlier, like when you're thinking about lobbying, like, do you want to be that person who's like annoying? So what are the different ways that people, besides what you already mentioned, how can we avoid being annoying? Like you mentioned specifically stuff that's like calendar based and time based. What are other ways that people like me who want to make a difference and do not want to annoy people if I can help it? How can we do this in the way that, like the person in the office, like, I don't understand what it's like to work in these offices. I just, I don't have a point of reference for what their life is like and like, what is their actual attitude when they get off the phone with me or whatever. Like, I just don't understand them and what's going on. I want to be relatable. I want to be human. I want to treat them as human. Like, I want to make a good impression. I want to not be annoying. But there's probably faux pas that I would run into without knowing it because I am so not a lobbyist.
- [55:16]
C
Okay, So I doubt you, Josh, are ever going to fall into like these traps. But the things that are going to get your email, like, filtered to like the trash. Okay. Ignore giant all caps email emails, you know, essentially screaming at someone.
- [55:35]
A
It's a great call out.
- [55:36]
C
We also had. So during our legislative session this last year, my chair, his chief of staff, would get calls all the time complaining about Elon Musk. Chico, would you like the number to your congressman? Because we don't. There's no Elon Musk here in the Maryland state legislature.
- [55:52]
B
You know, we have nothing to do with you on this. Yeah.
- [55:56]
C
So those calls, like, annoy and I don't think they move the needle at all. So I would say, like, no, that's
- [56:02]
A
going to be a turn off. Yeah, it's like, what are you doing? Why didn't you research this a little better?
- [56:06]
C
People who call and they're well meaning, but like, you know, they want their state rep to be like their personal secretary. And I mean, God bless these legislative aides who will say, would you like me to look that number up for you? That sort of thing. Those are the things that make you annoying. Things that are helpful that even I didn't know until I got into this position. Position. Like, yeah, if there's a story in the news right now, a controversy, emailing them or calling them with relevant personal experience that could help them in dealing with that controversy. Something they could take with them to a hearing.
- [56:45]
A
They like, it's a powerful testimony.
- [56:47]
C
Testimony. So powerful.
- [56:50]
A
Yeah.
- [56:50]
C
You know, here's the other thing I just told you. A politician might have run because they were motivated by the light life issue, but once they're in office, they are put on the Judiciary Committee or The Environment and Transportation Committee. And they have to be experts on other things. We love citizen experts. And this is a great avenue for pro life people who like pro life apologetics. Email them and say, I see that, you know, bill number whatever that's going to outlaw dismemberment abortions is on the list again this year. I'd like you to consider, hear these talking points. You know, those things are helpful. Offer to testify, say, I would love to come and share my story with the committee or, you know, come into your office. Because these are the things that legislators like on the fly really can use. Like, they might have only one staffer. You know, that's one of the reasons my job exists. Because in some of the states where our network works, they have no staff. They don't even have an office. Their desk is on the floor. Okay. You know, they, they're farmers the weekend. So anything that you are kind of a subject knowledge expert in that can really help a state legislator, you know, or you never know, like a county or, you know, local level, your mayor, helping them with talking points. Testimony like that really helps a lot. And I mean, that's helpful. We share that kind of, you know, one of my members will screenshot an email, they'll say, this just came into my office and it's from a citizen. Hey, they're moving funds from this one to that. Or you know, like they failed that audit again, you know, because you just can't pay attention to all things at all the time. Those are the things that are super helpful for your legislators.
- [58:38]
B
Ally, I'm imagining a world where like, I'm trying to be super helpful and give them talking points and telling my story and all these things and I could accidentally become annoying by the length of what I'm doing. Like, like, if I was to sit down and like, script out a little bit the phone call I'm going to make to my legislator, or it's an email or whatever, like, what is the ideal length for something like that?
- [59:02]
A
Great question.
- [59:02]
B
So that I'm not rambling because I'm sorry, I get those emails sometimes from some of you lovely ERI supporters. Many of them are perfect and wonderful and some of them are like 85 paragraphs. And I'm like, I really want the time to read this, but I just don't have the time in my day to read 85 paragraphs.
- [59:17]
C
So like a meme on social media that's like, I'm not reading all that, but good for you, or sorry that happened.
- [59:24]
B
Yes, yes, yes, that is what I'm talking about. Where is the line? What will they actually read?
- [59:30]
C
Absolutely. It's gotta be shortened to the point if it needs. Listen, we're in the. We're in the generation of AI. Write your email, send it through ChatGPT and say I need this. No more than three paragraphs, you know, or something like that. Bullets like make it visually think about the way your email actually looks. Okay. Like intro paragraph. Why is this relevant to them? Like put it right up front, you know. I noticed you have an initiative for xyz. I wanted to tell you my experience in that area. And then like short paragraphs are like bullet, bullet, bullet, you know.
- [60:05]
A
And then what's in it for them is like a lot of what I'm hearing.
- [60:08]
B
That's why I have to say why should you be curious about me and maybe want to do a follow up email with me or another call or what I like. Why should you want to get more of the rest of what I have to say?
- [60:19]
A
I would also say I be useful
- [60:21]
C
to you 100 and also make sure they can contact you. You like don't be anonymous. I actually have good tip. We have one of those people who is a little bit annoying and very well known to many legislators is somebody who I know I'm not gonna say this person's name. If you're local to me, you know who it is. This person blinds their phone number and won't leave her name. So it's like we know when she calls.
- [60:45]
A
First of all we know. And also it's extra. Now there's this extra layer of weirdness that you're trying to hide your idea.
- [60:52]
C
And I do have to say say that I think right leaning and conservative people do tend to be ultra concerned with privacy. So sometimes there a staffer might be like I need your name and your zip code because they're not going to help a non, you know, resident. Okay?
- [61:08]
A
Right.
- [61:08]
C
And you know they'll be like why do you need that? Don't be that person. Give them a way to contact them.
- [61:12]
B
Know that you are actually relevant to them.
- [61:14]
C
Yeah. Also your life is not as private as you think. Almost anyone can be found with Google. So just stop the farce, you know. So that would be one, you know, another like be clear that you are a citizen of their state or their county, preferably their district. That's the most relevant to them. But if you have a story that's relevant to their issue or the life issue, help them out. You know, give them something they can print out. And take to that committee hearing and make a splash out of.
- [61:42]
A
Okay, this has been awesome. I'm going to. I want everyone. I'm going to. I'm going to put the link in the description below. Link to Ali's first episode. Because if you haven't heard it, even if you have, you probably need to re listen to it. You don't remember all the helpful. Like there was like 70 different tips.
- [61:58]
B
I think I literally listened to it last week. It was amazing. I re listened to it last week and pressed on.
- [62:03]
A
It's still relevant, right?
- [62:04]
B
Still relevant and so good.
- [62:06]
A
Everyone go listen to that. Ali, if people want to kind of follow up with you, follow what you're doing, potentially reach out to you, ask you questions. How would you want them to. To do that?
- [62:18]
C
Let's see, there's many places. So people are going to go find me on Twitter. You can find me on Twitter. I'm Li a l I r a k 8, 7, 10. Don't make fun of me. All the numbers. Yeah, link it in.
- [62:29]
B
There we go.
- [62:30]
C
Reach out to me on, you know, on X. Or if you find me on Facebook, I would say find me on social media. You can also find me palling around with the Maryland Freedom Caucus. You can follow us on Facebook and X as well.
- [62:41]
A
Nice. Thank you so much for being back. You gave just so many practical tips that I don't know who else I could have gotten those tips from. This is really helpful, but bottom line,
- [62:51]
C
pro life people, your work is not done. We need you more than ever and we need you to be fresh faced, compassionate and unwavering.
- [63:00]
A
Thank you for listening to the Equipped for Life podcast, a project of Equal Rights Institute. Equal Rights Institute uses speaking, writing, YouTube videos, podcasts, online courses, and Campus up outreach to help pro life advocates in the areas of practical dialogue tips, relational apologetics, pro life philosophy, and sidewalk counseling. If you've been helped by this podcast, please consider supporting it by making a donation@equalrightsinstitute.com.