Building Discipline, Leadership, and Business Success – Leo Climaco

Summary

Podcast Summary: Building Discipline, Leadership, and Business Success – Guest: Leo Climaco

Podcast: Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
Host: John Gafford
Guest: Leo Climaco
Release Date: March 31, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, John Gafford interviews Leo Climaco, a tech-savvy entrepreneur who pivoted from IT management to founding a successful therapy agency and later established himself as a podcast authority-builder. The conversation dives deep into Leo’s journey of business failures, breakthroughs, and lessons in discipline, leadership, and credibility, focusing on how podcasting can be a transformative tool for personal brands and business growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Leo’s Entrepreneurial Beginnings and Learning from Failures

[01:05] – [06:45]

• Leo began in IT, managing home offices for hedge fund billionaires, which he considered his "college education."
• In 2016, he left his job to start two businesses:
  • Innovative Apps: Mobile app development for businesses (failed due to focusing on branding over product-market fit).
  • Dropshipping Espresso Machines: Made some sales but ran out of runway (no understanding of burn rate or business runway).
• Major Lesson:
  • “I was too concerned with actually having a company, actually having a logo, actually having a name, than actually focusing on the product and how I'm going to deliver it.” — Leo ([02:27])
  • Validate demand before investing heavily. "Maybe throw it out there and see if anybody actually wants to buy it before you get in the business." — John ([03:10])

2. Building a Successful Therapy Agency

[07:56] – [13:16]

• After returning to IT, Leo and his wife, a Board Certified Behavior Analyst, launched an autism therapy agency focused on intentional therapist-client matching.
• Matching Method:
  • Rigorous multi-level interview process with supervisors, the family, and sometimes schools involved.
• Business Model:
  • Agency works only with the NYC Department of Education (DOE) due to insurance limitations; the firm’s funding is protected because it stems from parents’ lawsuit settlements, not optional programming.
• Systemic Impact:
  • “We handhold our clients through the entire process. We take longer to hire, but we hire the right person that's going to stay … and build that trust.” — Leo ([08:52])

3. The Role of Trust, Authority, and Podcasting

[13:33] – [16:19]

• Leo credits podcasting as the key to building trust and authority for himself and his agency.
• On starting a podcast:
  • “It’s given me a lane where I can be in your ear daily, 30, 60 minutes. Building trust, building authority. That's really where that was born.” — Leo ([14:03])
• John’s Experience:
  • Initially started podcasting casually with friends, but transformed it into a learning and branding vehicle as guest interviews became a core feature.

4. How to Start and Succeed in Podcasting

[16:33] – [18:09]

• Leo’s advice for aspiring podcasters:
  1. Define your audience and message.
  2. Don’t stress over equipment; start simple (phone + Amazon light).
  3. Aim to record at least 50 episodes before judging success.
     • “If you've done more than 12 episodes, you're at the top 1%.” — Leo ([17:43])
• Most people quit early; consistency and repetition are keys to building comfort and skill.

5. Overcoming Camera and Performance Anxiety

[18:59] – [22:31]

• Repetition and basic camera training help clients get over fear.
• Leo encourages guests to treat the camera as a conversation with a friend.
• John’s Reflection on Reality TV:
  • “After three days, you won’t even see the cameras anymore. … You literally forget the cameras are there.” — John ([20:13])
• Leo’s guidance: “Take a deep breath. It's not that serious… If you don't show confidence, you're not going to make money. We're here to make money. I need you to be your best version.” ([20:31])
• Tips: Use technology (like interview mirrors or teleprompter glasses) and new apps for better on-camera performance.

6. Production vs. Content Quality

[25:33] – [28:02]

• Audio quality is king:
  • “You'll watch a bad video with good audio, but you won't watch a bad audio.” — Leo ([25:33])
  • Invest in a decent microphone (~$300); do not rely on laptop mics or AirPods for remote interviews.
• Editing & Support:
  • Leo’s company provides in-studio and remote production, editing, thumbnails, captions, and posting service.

7. Promoting and Positioning Your Podcast

[29:02] – [30:18]

• Algorithms demand niche content and consistency—avoid confusing audiences by separating podcast content from personal social feeds.
• “The algorithm now … wants consistency.” — Leo ([30:21])
• Share across both personal and dedicated podcast/business accounts at first, but eventually migrate to specialized channels.

8. What Makes a Great Podcast and Host?

[30:22] – [36:14]

• Success comes from being an open-minded host, willing to deeply listen, ask questions, and pull threads.
• Avoid echo chambers and “drama-chasing” for views.
• On credibility and impact:
  • Podcasts should build trust, authority, and relationships—not just chase clicks.
  • “If you're looking to become a successful podcast influencer, I'm not your guy. … I am building you to build authority, trust within your audience and your niche.” — Leo ([35:02])

9. Common Mistakes and the Path to Effective Communication

[35:59] – [39:34]

• Mistakes: Chasing fame, neglecting the hard work of building a platform, not vetting guests thoroughly.
• Effective Communication:
  • Simplify your message (“Take your jargon and put [it] into simple language, simple terms.” — Leo [39:25]).
  • Stay at a 6th-7th grade level for clarity and reach.

10. The Art of Tonality and Presentation

[40:54] – [43:49]

• Tonality, pace, and body language are crucial for connecting with audiences.
• Mix of energy and focus—speed up for excitement, slow down to emphasize or captivate.
• Practice and repetition lead to mastery: “The more you do it, the more you get comfortable with it.” — Leo ([43:48])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Validating Ideas:
  “Sell the idea first.” — John Gafford ([03:10])
• On Quitting Too Soon:
  “If you've done more than 12 episodes. Yeah, you're at the top 1%.” — Leo Climaco ([17:43])
• On Building Trust Through Podcasting:
  “It's given me a lane where I can be in your ear daily…building trust, building authority.” — Leo Climaco ([14:03])
• On Handling Guest Performance Anxiety:
  “Take a deep breath. It's not that serious.” — Leo Climaco ([20:30])
• On Authority Building:
  “I'm not building you to be an influencer. I'm building you to build authority and trust.” — Leo Climaco ([35:02])
• On Communicating Effectively:
  “How can we take your jargon and put [it] into simple language… that you can communicate that properly?” — Leo Climaco ([39:25])
• On Production Value:
  “You'll watch a bad video with good audio, but you won't watch a bad audio.” — Leo Climaco ([25:33])
• Host's Reflection:
  “If you don't go broke at least once or twice in your life, you're not entrepreneuring hard enough.” — John Gafford ([07:44])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Leo’s Origin Story and Early Failures: [01:05] – [06:45]
• Building a Therapy Agency: [07:56] – [13:16]
• Why Podcasting? [13:33] – [16:19]
• Podcasting Tips & Success Metrics: [16:33] – [18:09]
• Breaking Camera Shyness: [18:59] – [22:31]
• Production Priorities: [25:33] – [28:02]
• Promoting Podcast Effectively: [29:02] – [30:18]
• Attributes of a Great Host: [30:22] – [36:14]
• Mistakes & Communication Skills: [35:59] – [39:34]
• Tonality and Delivery Advice: [40:54] – [43:49]
• How to Connect with Leo: [43:49]

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Guest & Resource Links

• Leo’s Studio: forgestudiofl.com
• Leo’s Social: @leoclamaco (Instagram), @leoclamacopodcast (IG and YouTube)

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Summary of Takeaways

• Don’t romanticize entrepreneurship—fail fast, learn faster.
• Focus on product-market fit and test demand before investing heavily.
• Consistency and authentic messaging are more important than production value at first; prioritize good audio.
• Use podcasting for building real credibility and trust, not just popularity.
• Effective communication and presence on mic/camera can be learned by anyone with enough repetition and the right coaching.
• Separate your podcast content from your personal brand to maximize growth and algorithmic reach.

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Bottom Line:
This episode is a rich, practical guide for aspiring entrepreneurs, coaches, and those looking to break into podcasting. Leo Climaco shares lessons learned from real setbacks and triumphs, and together with John Gafford, provides a roadmap for using discipline, communication, and podcasting to build authority and lasting business impact.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. And now, escaping the Drift, the show designed to get you from where you are to where you want to be. I'm John Gafford, and I have a knack for getting extraordinary achievers to drop their secrets to help you on a path to greatness. So stop drifting along, escape the Drift, and it's time to start right now. Back again, back again for another episode of the podcast where, like it says in the opening, man gets you from where you are to where you want to go. And today, live in studio, flown in right all the way away from the sunny beaches of Florida, Fort Lauderdale. Anyway, this is a guy who was an entrepreneur in his own right, but has used the medium that we're on right now, podcasting, to help other people establish their authority and build their brand. And I thought it'd be interesting to talk about kind of the mechanics and the inner workings of podcasting, because if it's something that you've ever considered doing, man, this is probably a guy you want to talk to. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the studio. This is Leo Climaco. Leo.

[B]

Hi, John.

[A]

How are you, buddy?

[B]

Good, man.

[A]

Good to see you.

[B]

Thanks for coming here. Thank you.

[A]

Thanks for coming in.

[B]

Thanks for the invite.

[A]

So let's talk a little bit about, like, your background, obviously, because you're an entrepreneur by your own, right? What business did you guys really cut your teeth on and where's the basis for this starting?

[B]

So my background background is really in it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I was an IT manager, IT director for a very long time. I used to manage home offices for hedge fund billionaires. I worked for three different home offices, and I consider that really my college education.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Being around those guys, right. Taking in like a sponge. Eventually I got to a place where I'm like, you know what? I want to be these guys. I don't want to be working for them. So at the time, it was 2015, I took a year off. In 2016, I was like, honey, going to take on the load for a whole year, and I'm going to try to build companies, and let's see how that goes.

[A]

Let's see what you get.

[B]

I built two companies, failed miserably, spent ton of money.

[A]

Okay, don't run by that. What were the companies you tried to build?

[B]

So I tried to build an app company called Innovative Apps. This is back in 2016.

[A]

And what was the mission of Innovative Apps?

[B]

It was to build mobile apps for businesses.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That was the goal.

[A]

There was a lot of that going around back then.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Why did it fail?

[B]

Because I Had no clue what I was doing and I spent too much money on the wrong things.

[A]

Okay, talk about that. What do you mean you spend too much money?

[B]

So I was too concerned with actually having a company, actually having a logo, actually having a name, than actually focusing on the product and how I'm going to deliver it. So made the company, incorporated, made a logo, made a website, spent all this money on the, on the what I think is now on the artificial part of it, but really didn't test the idea. I didn't test if people actually wanted what I was gonna sell.

[A]

Market fit is the most important. That's the important part of the equation.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I tell people all the time I have $100,000 bottle of vitamins sitting on my desk for the same reason.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Look, if you're listening to this and you're out there and you have some miraculous idea that's gonna change the world, maybe throw it out there and see if anybody actually wants to buy it before you get in the business of. And a website for the company, Sell the idea first. Well, I think that's, you know, that's the best thing that people don't realize that Kickstarter did was it really is this super incubator to see if your idea is a good idea.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Like if you have a product, you need to start a Kickstarter with a social media campaign to see if anybody wants to pre order it before it's even made.

[B]

Right.

[A]

A lot of people don't realize a lot of those products on Kickstarter, what you're seeing them run around with in the cool flashy videos is probably held together with duct tape and super glue and probably doesn't really work.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's just, let's see if this is something we should invest all the R and D money into making it work and getting that done. So you tried to do an app business because of course you go from it to app. Of course.

[B]

Exactly. That makes sense. Right.

[A]

Nobody wanted to buy it. So how did you. Let's walk through that. And, and no, I'm not trying to beat you up on. Please. I just find there's way more education that comes out of people's failures. Yes, I know. In my life there is way more education that comes out of your fail then comes out of your successes. Right, right. So how did you, how did you go about trying to market this? Once you get your website up, you got your stuff off, you're like, I'm going to make a gazillion dollars selling apps to Companies. And then what happened?

[B]

So I focused heavy on SEO. At the time, it was. Google was big. I don't think. I don't think Facebook ads were a thing back then. I think it was just starting. So I got to a place where I thought that it was too hard and I didn't want to do it anymore. So I pivoted and I completely. So I bought this course. It was a drop shipping course.

[A]

Okay. A lot of that.

[B]

A lot of that. So I quickly pivoted into. Into dropshipping. I began drop shipping high end espresso machines from Italy.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It actually works.

[A]

Well, at least that's it. That's interesting. More interesting than just throwing up an Amazon store?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Give me five grand and I'll put up an Amazon store and you'll make millions. Right. There was a lot of that.

[B]

So I built a full shopify store and I actually made some money. I sold maybe a dozen machines before I ran fully out of money and had to go back to work.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And got a 9 to 5 again.

[A]

So when you say you ran out of money. So let's go back, because this was. This was a. And believe me, there's some great businesses that are built off pivoting, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Some unbelievable businesses that. Off that of my hundred thousand dollar bottle of vitamins that I told you about earlier, that wound up in a weird sort of way, because my sister was my partner, that business had to take a consulting gig. Led to a very successful insurance company in Florida.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because just off of a consulting gig, she get to try to keep this afloat. It was like, whoa, we need to be doing this. Pivots can work. Yes, they can work. But when you made that pivot from one to the other to drop shipping. So how much Runway did you have left? Like. Like, how much Runway did you give yourself? Because a lot of reason.

[B]

Great question.

[A]

Well, a lot of people fail in business because they don't understand burn rate and they don't understand Runway, so.

[B]

And I didn't.

[A]

You didn't.

[B]

At that point, I did not understand what that meant.

[A]

Got it Today.

[B]

I do. So looking back, I gave myself no Runway.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

I gave myself, I don't know, three months. Basically. Like, either you make it or you

[A]

get a job, or that's what it is.

[B]

That's what it was.

[A]

So it's based on time. For those of you that are listening that don't know those concepts, hopefully you all do. Burn rate is the amount of money that the business is going to go through in any Given period, a month, a quarter, whatever it is, without making a nickel, if not one nickel comes in. This is just what it's going to cost to keep the lights on. And then Runway is how much cash you have and how many months of that you have.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

We would call the personal life moles, or months of life in my book is what I call it. But yeah, you need to understand that intimately and know, because a lot of businesses don't make a dollar for a while. And how long can you go. And that's kind of the startup math, is how long do I have before I run out of money? And what is the delta comparison between that and how long I think it's going to take to actually start getting sales?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And that is the math that is the make or break on any good startup.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And you weren't using that.

[B]

No, not at all.

[A]

Because you didn't know?

[B]

I had no clue.

[A]

All right. Because look, hey, man, we our lumps in business. We learn and go forward so that. That you ran out of money.

[B]

Y.

[A]

Which, hey, man, happens to all of us at one point. I like to say, if you don't go broke at least once or twice in your life, you're not entrepreneuring hard enough.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

There you go. So you did that and then you went out and you.

[B]

Back to it.

[A]

Back to it.

[B]

Okay, so this is January 2017.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm back in it. I went back to it for two more years until 2019. In those two years, my wife became a licensed board certified behavior analyst.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

She has a license from the state of New York to modify behaviors. So at the time, she worked for now our competitors, and she didn't like how they paired the therapist. And there was no caring in how they paired the therapist and the client. It was just, you're a body, you're able go, you're available.

[A]

There's the need.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

A plus B.

[B]

We didn't like that. So we came together and we're like, why don't we build a company around everything you hate about the companies that you currently work for? So we did that. So we.

[A]

You're sitting in a company just like that. That's where this company was born. Yeah.

[B]

So we handhold our clients through the entire process. We take longer to hire, but we hire the right person that's going to stay with your family and build that trust and relationship. So we are currently one of the top rated therapy agencies in New York for autism.

[A]

And how do you. So how do you go about matching, though? You Said that was the biggest problem.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

So, so how do you go about matching.

[B]

Great question. My wife. Thoroughly, thoroughly, thoroughly interviews. There's a very harsh interview process. You got to fill out, like an examination type, and then there's three rounds of interviews. So we do an interview with a. With a supervisor, then with my wife, then with my wife and the family to make sure that everyone's on the same page. There are times if, if, if the therapist has to go in school, we'll do my wife, the, the, the, the. The. The. The future employee and the school to make sure that everyone's on the same page.

[A]

I would, I would just think, just in the short time we've been talking, I would think with your tech background and with that idea, why would you guys not build a platform that works similar to like match.com, where you have a very thorough onboarding, Onboarding with the clients as far as the needs that they have. And then you have this. And then, you know, use AI and algos to match them in a way that makes sense.

[B]

It's a great idea. Never thought of it.

[A]

Well, I'm just saying, because now. Because now, you know, now you can use that as software, as a service that you could trademark. There's somebody out here, somebody listening to this, like, bang a trademark paperwork on that idea right now. But, yeah, now you can go into a software as a, you know, software as a service business. And scale.

[B]

I might look into that.

[A]

Yeah. So anyway. All right, so we're doing well. So we're doing well. We're doing well with autism.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So let me ask you this, and I think this is a poignant question right now, because literally today I was watching this, and because you're in the business, obviously your wife is the brains behind it. Yeah. No shame there. My wife brings about a lot of

[B]

what I got, so I love it.

[A]

Yeah, right. It's a great thing. Yeah. But I was watching today, you know the hearing with Tim Waltz. Yes. In front of the House Judiciary or House Committee, whatever it was, and they were talking about the math of it, where I want to say the US government spent a million dollars in 2017 for kids with autism, is what they spent on programs. And then through the fraud that's happening there now, I think they spent 326 million last year. And then they were talking about what percentage of kids have autism. And they were saying there's 5.6 million people in Minnesota. 1.8 million of those people is below. Is below that. And then below that, again, you have 1 in 36 kids are on the spectrum. So if you figured it out, it was like some insane number there kid of how it was crazy when. When you're dealing with your services in New York. Right. And I'm just curious is how much of it is privately funded through people and how much is through insurance and how much. How much of it is through grants? I'm just curious.

[B]

So we.

[A]

And I'm not at all implying you're doing anything unscrupulous. Okay.

[B]

So we only work with the city of New York. We used to do insurance, but insurance is not the best route to help families. Unfortunately, they don't want to pay. They don't want to provide the right service insurances, which sucks. It really does, because most people are only able to get service through insurance. So we made a bold call. And we only work with the DOE of New York. So we service the DOE kids of New York City in school and at home. Are you paid by the city?

[A]

Is your business at risk right now with the budget crisis that New York is going through?

[B]

I don't think so. And I'll tell you why. Because my clients won a lawsuit. So it wasn't like, oh, let's create this program to fund these kids. No. These parents sued the city and won a lawsuit.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And now they're getting all this money to help their kid because their kid was being left behind by. By the system.

[A]

So this isn't considered an optional program to the city. This is something that is. Is judiciary, Judicial. They're bound to do it.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

I say judiciary. I'm not sure what I just said,

[B]

but it made sense. I knew what you meant.

[A]

Yeah. For those of you guys who are listening, I woke up today feeling a little like I'm getting a cold a little bit. So if I say some random words that don't make anything, please don't slaughter me in the comments. Yes, I. I'm. I'm running it like 82% today, but my 82% still pretty good. So. Yeah. So I say something crazy just to

[B]

connect everything for you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I learned the value of trust and authority through my therapy agency, Fair. I saw the mistakes I made with my previous two companies, which was I had no trust, I had no credibility. People didn't know who I was. Right. I wanted to sell you a product before you even knew me or liked me. And it took me a long time to really understand that, but I got it. And that's where podcasting came in.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because. Okay, I figured, what's the best way for me to introduce myself and get you to know who I am, how I think, how I function. Podcasting was that avenue for me. So it's given me a lane where I can be in your ear daily, 30, 60 minutes. Building trust, building authority. That's really where that was born.

[A]

Yeah, I think, you know, for me, it's funny how this all started was, you know, I. I have a group of friends, and when I first started doing this, I did it with two other guys. I did it with my buddy Colt, my buddy Chris, and it kind of was born from, you know, we would be out and just, you know, just goofing around with each other in a bar or somewhere where we were. And, you know, people would be like, oh, my God, you guys are so funny. This is hilarious. Blah, blah, blah. And it was like, my sister's in broadcasting has been forever, and it kind of became an excuse to just kind of get together. So I was like, you know, I'll throw a studio together. And obviously, the one you're sitting in today is much different than what we started with, but we. We threw it up just to kind of get together and have fun. Yeah.

[B]

And it's kind of like how Joe started also.

[A]

Yeah, we just did it because we just. We just wanted to kind of have a clubhouse and have Mike's running. We were talking about Nonsen and. And the early shows. If you ever want to go look back and look at the power move. There are some. There were some interesting things that were talked about on those shows, but what I found was, as those guys, you know, life happens. It's. These are busy guys that have serious careers, and sometimes it's hard to make that commitment to always be in the same place at the same time. And so we started having guests on. And when I started having guests on, you know, I started learning so much from these people that came through and really learning about them and what they had. And I always seem to start walking away from every podcast, like, dude, I got to do that, or that's a really good nugget or this and that. And so I kind of wanted to lean in that, which is why we changed this format, which was really, you know, trying to help people and get information out as much as we can for folks. But I agree with you on the fact that when you were talking about, like, getting no. You know, if you want authority in your space, this is a great medium because people can find you and they can really kind of get to know what you're all about.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And there's no better client interaction I ever have, whether it's with an actual real estate client or it's with an agent that's coming to work for us. When they walk in and they say, oh, I feel like I know you,

[B]

that's the greatest feeling.

[A]

It's the best.

[B]

It really is.

[A]

It's the best. So give me your formula for somebody out there that's thinking about starting a podcast. I want to hear what your. I want to hear what your formula is.

[B]

Great idea. Okay. So the first thing, you got to figure out who you're talking to. I think it's very important. When I first began, I was very broad. I was just talking to anybody. Right Then I had to, like, really hone in on one message. Who am I talking to? That's really step one, two. You don't need fancy equipment. Grab your phone, buy a light on. On. On Amazon and start. Right. And you haven't really done much until you do at least 50 episodes.

[A]

Yeah, okay, I'll agree with that. Keep going.

[B]

I was going to say 100, but I think 50 is a good number.

[A]

I think. Well, okay. So I tell people that. Ask me when they're like, okay, I want to start a podcast. I'm like, okay, cool. Don't post anything at all until you get 10, because you probably know the math because this is your business and helping people get started. What's the math on podcasts that fell 12.

[B]

12 episodes?

[A]

If you get past 12, you'll stick with it.

[B]

If you get 12, if you've done more than 12 episodes. Yeah, you're at the top. 1%.

[A]

1%, right. So how many. How many people start this and just get border quit?

[B]

The majority.

[A]

Yeah, the majority.

[B]

More than the majority. Very, very few go past 15 episodes.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I would say, you know, 99. And like, we're in this room, right? We're in this podcast studio that's beautiful. And it's all state of the art, and everything we have here is awesome. We didn't start that way, but we got this way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But this room is free. Like, we have 585 real estate agents that work for us, and this room is free for them to use whenever they want.

[B]

Do they.

[A]

No, you'll have people that will come in. Some of them. I don't want to say all of them. The majority of people will come in, like, they'll shoot market update content. They'll shoot content like that. It's great and it's wonderful, but I don't. I don't feel that they're taking advantage of it in the way that they should. Because, again, the purpose of this is so people can know, like, and trust you. And I think people get. I think. I think the camera comes on and people get freaked out, and they're just kind of. I don't know what to do with my hands. And they start, you know, I don't know if I look dumb. You know, they judge themselves too harshly. So when somebody comes to you, right, and says, I want to do this, how do you get them over that, huh?

[B]

So repetition. It's the only way. I gotta put you in front of a camera and ask you questions over and over and over again so you break that fear. It's the only way. Right. So we do camera training where I bring you in, we have a set of questions that we ask you, and we go through it to really get you comfortable and get you talking.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The other part of it is, forget the camera. Look at me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just you and me here. Forget the camera. Forget the lights.

[A]

Yeah, Right?

[B]

Two guys having a conversation.

[A]

Yep. That's my story. I tell people all the time. They're like, oh, you know, I get nervous and I'm like, okay, listen, as somebody that was on a reality TV show many years ago, which one? I was on the Apprentice.

[B]

You were on the Apprentice?

[A]

Yeah. But you're living on a television set, right? And there's dudes, like, with the big cameras. Like, this is not like the little handhelds right in front of you and a boom mic over your head on all day long. And that's crazy when you start that. It was funny because the guy was like, you won't even see these people in three days. Like, the first day or two will be weird, but after three days, you won't. They'll become a nuisance to you. Like, you have to wait for them to get to do what they're doing so you can do what you need to do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But you're not even going to think about that as I'm being filmed. Like, you won't even see it anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is why, if you wonder why people say crazy shit on reality shows, that's why. Because you literally forget the cameras are there. Right?

[B]

You forget. You don't care.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's a point where you're like, fuck it. Excuse me.

[A]

No, yeah, you're fine. So if somebody's totally in their head about it, like, what do you say to them? What do you say?

[B]

Take a deep breath.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's not that serious. Okay. We're looking at a camera. So we are here to get your clientele to like you and trust you. If you don't show confidence, you're not going to make money. We're here to make money. I need you to be your best version. Take a deep breath. The camera, speak the words. It's really it. You know, I'm able to make people comfortable. I have, I, I have a stabilizing energy where I'm really able to give you the confidence that you need to execute. I'm really good at that.

[A]

Yeah. You know what's really interesting that I, I didn't. I mean, you would think with all the camera gear we're always looking at and everything we're looking to buy, you would think I would have seen this before. I've never seen it until yesterday. But they were saying, I saw a video on Instagram. I was like, do you ever wonder how they get those Netflix style interviews from people?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

A random people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And have you seen this thing that they use? So, like, obviously if you've ever read from a teleprompter, you understand there's a piece of glass, of course. And then there's a reflection.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you're reading the words, but the camera's behind the glass so you can't see it.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

They have this thing, it's like a half circle that goes in front of the camera so the interviewer can be off at a 90 degree angle.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

But the person in front of them is seeing the reflection of their face directly behind the camera. And reflection. And so the camera shooting right through the middle of the reflection of their face from the side. And that's how. Because I'm always wondering, like, you know, I have these people that are used to doing presentations, are used to doing all of these things and they're like, you put them in front of a camera and it's like they just get sucked into and get lost. And so, you know, my advice is if you're having trouble talking to a camera, put a piece of glass in front of it and talk to yourself. But something in front of it that's going to cause a reflection that you can see you instead of that. But I was like, man, should we buy one of these things? This thing's kind of awesome.

[B]

Very cool.

[A]

I look into it. Yeah. I'd never seen it before. Yeah, really cool.

[B]

I do think that most people who are ready to really showcase themselves, they'll quickly get through it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Well, I think too, you Know, one of the things about doing solar pods is a whole nother thing. You see like, you see like Ben Shapiro and those guys. And early on I would do like a solo pod once a week. That to me was so difficult. Like, it's just so hard because I, like, I have a newsletter that goes out and I love writing my newsletter, but I have time to think about that and time to craft that. Right. And it's succinct and it's to the point when I'm doing a solopod or when I was doing them, I, like, I would think I'm trying to fill 15 minutes here and you're trying to stretch thoughts out. And I just felt like I was becoming redundant.

[B]

Did you script it?

[A]

Yeah. Yes and no. I mean, for me, I. I'm better. Not scripted. I'm better like, like give me the bullet points, what I want to get right.

[B]

Give you a topic and you go,

[A]

and then I'll get through it. And I don't, I don't usually have a problem with that. There's certain things that we obviously do that have to be scripted. Yeah. When we're shooting ads and things like that. Certain things we have to go. The teleprompter. I don't necessarily like it though, because I think when people are on the teleprompter, I think it diminishes their personality. To me, I think you lose a little bit of them and I think it becomes. I think it's. For me, when I'm. When I'm watching video, in most cases, it's painfully obvious when people are reading.

[B]

I agree. It requires practice.

[A]

It does.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To not. To not look that way.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And then because the issue becomes. I don't know how. Like I've never had a teleprompter. I can get the right. Exactly right. Speed. Just you're trying to click and adjust yourself and there's always some level at some point of dragging or speeding.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That you know, like you're like. And today it's simply Vegas. We're going to talk about this because we. It's like this random, out of nowhere speed. And I think people pick up on that as a subconscious level.

[B]

I bought these new glasses. They're called the G2.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. They have a lens in each glass where it projects a green screen in front of you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

There's an app on your phone where you can add a whole script and use the glasses as teleprompter.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah. So I was testing it out, actually brought it with me to Vegas, but not to hear. It works very, very well. But the camera can see your eyes moving.

[A]

Yeah, that's, that's the problem. That's the issue.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. Like it's got to be for me, teleprompters have to be just far enough away to where I can kind of lose focus on one spot but still read it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

When they're too close to you and you're, you're, you're left or right. I hate that.

[B]

I know what you mean.

[A]

Here's the thing though. But anymore depending on what you're doing, you can use apps like hey Jen or even the Captions app or any of those apps. Yeah. And you can steady your eyes. A lot of people don't know that either. So if you're, if you're here, if you're hearing this and you're worried about your eyes, you can actually, when you go edit, you can fix your eyes. They don't move and they don't look dead or anything.

[B]

You still post production, right?

[A]

Yeah. You can fix that stuff in post.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

So let me ask you this. Like you said, you don't need a lot of high end equipment on the front end to get going. How important is the production?

[B]

I think audio is way more important than video. Because you'll watch a bad video with good audio, but you won't watch a bad audio.

[A]

No, you, you will never listen to a bad audio.

[B]

You will never.

[A]

We have. Okay, so when you do remotes, which I try not to do, we do them because obviously there's good guests. We want to do it.

[B]

I rarely ever do it.

[A]

Yeah. If it's somebody I'm really interested in, I'll do a remote.

[B]

But.

[A]

But I have people pop up and we have really good software to do it. But if they pop up and I don't see a mic, we're over. Really? Oh, we send them a minimum. We're like, okay, you got to have a real. You need to send us a gear list of what you're using on your end. Because so many people think they're just going to talk into a MacBook. Right.

[B]

Or AirPods.

[A]

Or AirPods. And like, think about that.

[B]

You're going to have shit quality.

[A]

Yeah. Somebody's going to be driving down the road trying to listen to this. It's going to be terrible. It's like being on a call that's about to drop.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know what I mean? Nobody, nobody wants to do that. So for us, I agree. You know, the video stuff is Fine. But the audio is everything.

[B]

Correct. You got to invest money on some good microphones.

[A]

Yeah. And you can get decent mics for relatively expensive.

[B]

No. 300 bucks. You buy a microphone.

[A]

Yeah. So let's say you're starting out. When you coach people, is this. Do you handle everything form end. I do. What do you do? Okay, so you guys, you'll handle. If they shoot, send you your footage. If you, if you.

[B]

We bring you to my studio, we do a two day intensive.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. We'll fly you out as a hotel across the street. We'll put you on a hotel and we do a two day intensive. I line up eight to 10 interviews for you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Already. So you leave with 90 days worth of content and 10 podcast interviews already recorded.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So.

[B]

So we like, you know, we put the rocket ship to you and we.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. There's nowhere to hide.

[B]

We're doing nowhere. We're doing this. Exactly.

[A]

I love that because, because so many people just talk about doing stuff and they don't actually do it. You're doing it.

[B]

We're doing it. Yeah. So if you're far away, we'll try to schedule either, either you come back every three months or I'll help you set up a podcast in your home, in your office, whatever it may be, so you can continue.

[A]

And there's plenty of studios you can also.

[B]

Plenty, plenty. But I tried, I try to make it cost effective because that can get expensive as well.

[A]

So how do you handle the editing for people when they're shooting remotely?

[B]

They will upload it to us through Google Drive and we'll edit it for them.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, that's, that's one problem that it's nice to have an in house editor. I will say that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because we're shooting 4K and it's. These are big files.

[B]

Oh, they're huge.

[A]

They're huge. And when you start uploading them to Ice Drive or wherever you go and then you know, you're trying to get them down and that's fine.

[B]

Whoever discovers a solution for this is going to make a whole lot of money.

[A]

You know, it's, it's just about the bandwidth, man. It's what it is. I mean, these are big files that can. We try to compress them and you can't compress them down. And when people come in today, like you're going to use the studio today, we're not going to send you out with 4K, we're going to send you out with 1080p. Which would be great, but it'll be all the files there because they're just too big to do them any other way.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

But yeah. So editing stuff. A lot of people, you know, get freaked out about editing. So obviously you handle that form or do you teach them how to.

[B]

No, no, no. We had the whole thing for you. We've been post for you. We'll create thumbnails, captions, post on social media, the whole thing for you.

[A]

Here's. Here's a question, because I feel like. And I'm watching this a lot because we do. We know we post a lot of podcast content and I'm getting ready to shift from posting all of the Escaping the drift podcast content. I'm going to build. I'm going to build its own Instagram presence, its own TikTok presence, and just post it all there. Because I think that what's happened with

[B]

the algorithms versus on your own page.

[A]

Holy smokes. Yeah, because. Because what's happened is I. I confuse the hell out of our algorithms because they're like, is this dude talking about, you know, Afghanistan? Is this dude talking about real estate? What is this guy like? It is this hodgepodge of everything without realizing what we're really trying to do. So it doesn't, like, I don't get nearly the mileage pushed out in front of people that I used to. And I think it's because they've really drilled down on niche type stuff.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So. And just talking to my strategist, they were like, we probably need to move all of this stuff over to its own channel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And let it, let it do its thing. Obviously YouTube has its own channel. You don't blend it there. Why would you blend it on your social. Makes sense. So I think that's what we're going to try to do there. What do you recommend people as far as a strategy for getting the most bang for the buck when they post this stuff?

[B]

To start off, if you have a large following, I like to piggyback off of that. Sure, right. To build that momentum. But eventually. I agree. Build your own Instagram page for your professional content, for your podcast or for your business or whatever it is, you have to split it because you can

[A]

always share it, you can always drive

[B]

track, you always collaborate it. 100%.

[A]

Yeah. You can always do that stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just. You really can. I've gotten to the point now where I'm confusing the hell out of the algorithms, which is a bad thing to do.

[B]

The algorithm now it's really niching down.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It wants consistency.

[A]

Yeah, it does. What do you think makes a good podcast?

[B]

A good host.

[A]

What makes a good host? Hoodie, tall hair, 82% feeling. No, I'm getting that said.

[B]

Yes. No, I would say someone open minded, Someone willing to hold space properly and someone willing to know when to pull those threads.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's, that's one of the most important things. And I think a huge problem with kind of society as it sits right now is everybody wants to exist in an echo chamber. Everybody wants to just listen to the same people that believe the same shit they do and, and regurgitates the exact same. And you're being served it. Your algorithm on your phone is like, oh, what does this dude think? You know, this guy wants to live in the woods and go off grid and tinfoil hat. Well, that's all we're going to give you all day long. And so you reinforce that behavior. I think a good host for me is somebody that's willing to, like you said, be open to new ideas and question everything. I don't, I don't. I think when you do this and you meet as many people as you do doing this particular form of media, it forces you to open your eyes a little bit and kind of be like, okay, maybe what would it take for me to. What would it take for my belief in this to not be accurate?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you get a little more open to it, which I think is going to you and, and try to book people of all sorts. Now I have seen a couple people that I know and like recently, and I'm not going to name names, but they, they've turned to Jerry Springer behind a microphone. Like, I mean, I saw something. I saw something posted today by one of my friends that was remixed. It was somebody essentially. And I never talk smack about anybody in this room. I don't let people talk smack about this room. I just think that's. I think it's lazy. Yeah. But this, this person I know posted a video that was remixed by a person. That was the person. That was the person in the video was talking shit about them.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

And then they took the video and remixed it.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

And here's the problem. I think the person originally posted the video probably looks at that as a win. Yeah. And that sucks. Yeah, that, that sucks. That you're gonna let somebody sit here and defame another person to get clicks and views. That sucks. I mean that it really bothered me to the point where I'm probably gonna call that person, now that I'm thinking about it out loud, probably gonna call them this afternoon and be like, bro, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing?

[B]

Just to play devil's advocate, do you think there's any benefit to doing that?

[A]

No. To tearing somebody? Dude, listen, number one, anybody that wants to tear anybody else down, especially publicly, in front of a microphone, on a camera, it's because you're not building. You're not tearing them up, you're tearing them down, which means you perceive them as higher on the social status than you are.

[B]

You got some eagle problems.

[A]

So, yeah, anytime somebody starts trying to rip somebody else down publicly like that, it's because it ain't about this person, it's about you.

[B]

They feel challenged.

[A]

It's about you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's about them being a reflection of something you're lacking in your own. In your own self. So, no, I don't think there's ever a place for that. Do I think there's a place to challenge ideas? Do I think there's a place to maybe. Do I think there's a place to, you know, obviously challenging ideas in that sort of things? And you can say, like, hey, they heard this person say this, and I just, you know, I. I see it differently. This is. Maybe I'll see it. But when you start attacking somebody personally, which this was a very personal, like, saying this person, who's an absolute savage in business, was just full of shit.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I was like, where is this coming from? And they got eviscerated by the actual person. Absolutely eviscerated. But I don't see that as a win, man. I see that as. Is that really what we need? Like, I think people get so, like, that's one of the things I'm going to tell people and I. Hopefully you're telling people this to stay the course, like you said. Why do this? Because you want to be known, like. And trusted.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Like, I know who Jerry Springer is. I don't. I wouldn't trust that dude to tell my story. I wouldn't trust that dude to be on a mic for him. Because I know that, you know, obviously he's gone now, but.

[B]

Right. You know, the whole drama.

[A]

He wanted format of that show was to exploit you for clicks.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That was the whole purpose of that. It's kind of like that. You know, you look at the. The Dr. Phil thing.

[B]

That was the original.

[A]

Yeah, he was the original doing it. And then Dr. Phil takes a lot of heat because it's like, are you really trying to Help people. Are you just trying to exploit these problems? Because, you know, I think originally he probably wanted to help people. Right. But then you got a producer that's like, hey, we're going to get canceled. We don't get ratings. So it gets a little more extreme. A little more extreme. A little more extreme. And I think people forget. They lose sight of what they're trying to really do through this medium.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is it really about helping people? Is about building credibility? Is about building a network of people, or is it about chasing clicks and likes and views?

[B]

Which is why the first thing I tell clients is that, look, if you're looking to become a successful podcast influencer, I'm not your guy. It's not what I'm building you for. I am building you to build authority trust within your audience and your niche.

[A]

And your niche.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yeah. If you're the best coin operated vending machine repair guy.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

We're going to make you worldwide known within the people that are looking for the best vending machine guy.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But you're not going to get. Nobody's going to let you cut the line at excess. At the win.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Right. The door guy's not going to see you.

[B]

Wonderful. But that's not the goal here.

[A]

Yeah. Nobody's going to. Nobody's going to see you and say, hey, we should do a collab to sell my ball deodorant or whatever it is. Nobody's.

[B]

You're not going to be Joel Rogan. Yeah.

[A]

You're not going to be that guy. It's. It's hard. What do you think the biggest mistakes people make are when they do this, that caused them to fail?

[B]

I think just that wanting to become an influencer, be popular.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Wanting the show to do the heavy lifting and not putting in any effort for the show to have that credibility.

[A]

Yeah. I think one of the most. One of the most important things for us is really vetting who comes on. Right. We get. Good Lord. I mean, I don't know how many submissions we get a day, but it's a lot. Yeah. And now that there's. There's platforms out there that we actually use the other way that we're pitching, like pod pitch and some of the other. Other ones. It's a sea of people to pod match. Pod match.

[B]

I have. Yeah.

[A]

We're using pod pitch just to push to me. Just because it saves time and it's pretty effective and, and it works good. And again, like anything else, if, if you package a turd, you're not going to get any calls back. But if you have a good package and you're somebody of value that people can be like, oh, this is an authoritative person, that might be interesting, it's fine.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Which brings me to my next point, which I think a lot of people lose on this. The number one goal of this is you. I think you gotta be entertaining. Because if you're entertaining, if you're not entertaining people, they're never going to listen to. They're not. You're not going to get to the education.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

So Here's a question, Mr. Podcast Coach, and we've all had this person. How do you get through when you get somebody on and they're just like, well, what I do for a living is I do this, and this is how it goes. I mean, what do you do?

[B]

You know, those clients are really my favorite because they're so raw, right? They, they, they're stuck in their ways, but they don't have any other known mistakes. So I can mold them. Okay. So I start by giving them a base. Okay. What are you trying to tell people? Let's start there. Okay. Okay. Sit down. Let's look at you on camera. Do you like how you sit? Do you like that position? I start very, very basic. I want to make you feel comfortable. You being comfortable leads to you speaking comfortably and you lowering your tone and you having that tonality that allows others to connect with you. I'll do a five minute recording and I'll show it to them. Would you watch this? Are you comfortable with this? Would you be okay with this?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No. What do you think we should do different? I'll let them sit and ponder, then I'll tell them, look, let's do this different. Let's do that different. Let's do this different. Uncross your legs. Sit up straight, chest out.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Don't use this word. Frame it like this. I'll help them on how to frame the idea. Right? I'll script the whole thing out for you and I will guide you through it. If we got to put a teleprompter, I'll put a teleprompter just to give them that comfort level at first.

[A]

I think what you're talking about is becoming a better communicator. So what makes.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

What makes somebody a better communicator?

[B]

It's a great question. I would say really understanding what you're trying to say. It starts there, right? But also having the ability to really translate your message into simple language. The reason why I was hired to work for Home Offices and hedge fund billionaires was because I was very good at translating IT jargon into normal language.

[A]

The reason I laughed, the reason I laugh at that is because I also was in the IT world. I was CEO of a tech firm before getting into real estate. And we had one standard rule at our tech firm, which was never let the gig pitch. We never let the engineers talk to the clients.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Like, I always think about that scene from Office Space, the movie Office Space. And he's like, what do you do here? And he's like, well, I take the stuff from the software engineers and I take it to the client. And they're like, well, couldn't the engineers just take it directly to the client? And anybody that's ever worked in IT at any high level understands, no, the software engineers cannot take it directly to the client because the client is going to be super, super ang immediately following that meeting, and the software engineer is going to look at you and go, what? So, yes, that is a skill set in itself.

[B]

Yeah. So I was that bridge.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I help my clients through the same thing. How can we take your jargon and put into simple language, simple terms that you can communicate that properly?

[A]

Yeah. I think a lot of people don't realize, but you really should try to stay at about a six or seventh grade level.

[B]

Yeah. Because you get everybody 100%.

[A]

You'll get everybody.

[B]

Yes, I agree.

[A]

How important is tonality and what you do and what you teach people, and how important is that tonality?

[B]

Body language is everything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because people, they don't only hear what you're saying, they feel what you're saying. And tonality is about feeling.

[A]

Yeah. One of my biggest issues is I speak very quickly and I listen very quickly too, which is good, but it's a problem. So, you know, with me, and I tell people this story sometimes, it's like, you know, I. I was coaching some agents at one time and this guy stood up and we were talking about tonality on the phone and he stood up and he said, can I ask you a question? And I said, this is a little bit of an older gentleman. I said, sure. And he said, what. What do you say when people immediately, even after the first couple of seconds, ask if, if you can call them later? And I said, well, a. That doesn't happen to me, but I can tell you why it happens to you. He said, why? And I said, do you hear how quickly I speak? He said, yes. And I said, listening to you at the rate at which you speak to me is like nails On a chalkboard. I just. I'm just. I'm screaming in my head, get to the point as you're speaking. Yeah. And I'm doing it right now. And I said, listen, that. That's okay, because here's the flip side of that coin, right? I don't just get to pick on you without picking on myself a little bit. To people that speak the rate that you do, if I come at them with the rate at which I speak normally, they're like. Like this guy. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down. Like, this is too much, right? It's like, too much for them. So just like, I've got to slow down to reach everybody or reach more people. You got to speed up to reach more people. And I think. Where is that? Like, if you had to pick it, right? If you had to describe that middle, that perfect spot that's going to reach the most people, because obviously when you're doing this, you can't match a mirror. Who's listening to this? I have. Watching this. Where's the. Like. If you had to describe that middle, that perfect spot, as far as tempo, speed, accent, inflection, all of those things, what would that look like?

[B]

Like, I would say the middle is a combination of both.

[A]

Okay, Right.

[B]

For example, when you're telling a story and you're very excited and it's. It's an exciting moment in the story, you can raise your voice, right? You can speed up. But when I want to captivate you, when I want you to lean in, I'll slow down, right? I'll be a little bit. A little bit clearer, a little bit more sound. So I think it's. It's a combination understanding when to raise your voice, when to raise your energy, and when to bring it down.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's. It's an art. It's not something that comes easy to everyone. But I do believe that the more you do it, the more you get comfortable with it. Like anything else in life, you just keep doing it.

[A]

The more you do more. Get comfortable.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

All right, well, if they want to find you, how do they find you? How do they get hooked up for your. Your. Your services there, my friend? How do they do it?

[B]

So you go to forgestudiofl.com you have all the info about our studio and about our packages. You can follow me on Instagram IO Clamacco IO ClomacoPodcast for IG and YouTube.

[A]

Perfect. Well, Leo, thanks for coming in, brother. It was great to have you listen.

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

And if you listen to that today and you took nothing away. Understand this. Everybody's got a voice. You can use it with most powerful medium we have in the world right now, which is video. Just turn the camera on yourself, get out of your own head and start building authority in your niche. We'll see you next time. What's up, everybody? Thanks for joining us for another episode of Escaping the Drift. Hope you got a bunch out of it, or at least as much as I did out of it. Anyway, if you want to learn more about the show, you can always go over to escaping the drift.com you can join our mailing list. But do me a favor, if you wouldn't mind, throw up that five star review. Give us a share. Do something, man. We're here for you. Hopefully you'll be here for for us. But anyway, in the meantime, we will see you at the next episode. Support is available 24. 7 with VRBoCare. We're here day or night, ready whenever you need help. Because a great trip starts with the right support.