← Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Adversity to Triumph: Shawn Meaike’s Journey to Building a Billion-Dollar Insurance Empire
01:05:55
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- [00:01]
A
Every team, every topic, everywhere. This is believe. See, early on I was really excited about. But I've got to a point where like, you know what, if I do any of this, I could be doing something to make money. I have kids. I have a family. You're going to pay me.
- [00:17]
B
Yeah.
- [00:17]
A
Matter of fact, I was looking at My Life360 app because I had my daughter in there keeping hers just like keeping Sav safe in California. She named it. My son was eight. He. I still have the same one. He named that the that we're tracking each other and it said pay me. Mike family.
- [00:37]
B
And now, escaping the Drift, the show designed to get you from where you are to where you want to be. I'm John Gafford and I have a knack for getting extraordinary achievers to drop their secrets to help you on a path to greatness. So stop drifting along, escape the drift. And it's time to start right now. Back again for another episode of. Like it says in the opening, man, the show to get you from where you are to where you want to be. And today, people in the studio. I'm talking again, man.
- [01:06]
A
Again.
- [01:06]
B
Just baller after baller after baller rolling in here lately. This dude has done something that I appreciate in a way that it's greater because I used to be in this business, man. And this dude took it so far beyond anything that I would have even thought it was possible. It's crazy. He literally has built a billion dollar insurance company. It is a massive team of 37,000 salespeople. He is a key. I mean, the dude's a best selling author and this guy's Mr. Everything. He's got his own unbelievable podcast that blows up everywhere. You've seen him everywhere, Fox News, everything else. Guys, we are so blessed to have in studio today. This is Sean. Mike. Sean.
- [01:50]
A
How you doing, man?
- [01:51]
B
How are you, buddy?
- [01:52]
A
Good. I appreciate. That was very. That's quite an introduction. I feel even better about myself than I before I walked in here.
- [01:57]
B
See, see, I'm actually applying for the job. I want to be the warm up dude when you go speak.
- [02:01]
A
Tell you what, just want to get them hyped up like you're already hired.
- [02:03]
B
I could be the flavor Flav to your Chuck D. Right? Like, I come out and jump around like a monkey and you drop the knob.
- [02:08]
A
Already hired, dude.
- [02:09]
B
And that's how we'll do it. I love that.
- [02:12]
A
So let's do.
- [02:12]
B
Look, for those of if you don't know who Sean is, this dude is a beast in the insurance World. When I say beast, I'm talking about king of the jungle type stuff. But how did you get started? And like, like, like. Well, I, you know, I don't want to go further back than that with you, dude, because I'm always a big interest of nature versus nurture. So, like, what's the background with you? Do you have like that terrible David Goggin story or just what made you. You do you think, growing up?
- [02:37]
A
Well, first of all, thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate it. I appreciate everything you do and everything. Right back at you, man. I see you everywhere. I've heard a lot about you, and it's good to meet you in person. So thanks for having me. And I need to preface this with. One of the reasons I wanted to come on a show is I like real people that tell real stories. There's. It's unfortunate with this whole nature versus nurture thing because so many people, they fabricate their story. It's not a real story. So I shoot you straight whenever I have to say it happened. If I say it didn't happen, it didn't happen. And it makes my life a lot easier. My mother raised me and my brother. My brother's two years younger than me. She got pregnant when she was 17. Had my brother who died shortly after birth. I would have had another brother. I'd have been the middle child and then had me at 19, my brother at 21. My old man left. My mom raised us. My mom had a high school education, and my mother worked at a hospital, plant product, kind of like wore a hair net, worked there. She was a bartender and did all kinds of odd jobs. Give you an idea how hard my mom worked. I played baseball, basketball, football in high school, football and baseball in college. My mother's never seen me play any sport in her life. Not because she's not a great mother, because she worked her freaking ass off. So. So mine was very much. I was very blessed with what I got to go through. But my mother, I will tell you, people always ask me, why do people. Low self image, everything that I've studied. I went to college, got an undergraduate degree in social work, master's degree in psychology, because I want to play ball. It's the reason I went, I want to play baseball. And you know, my people say to me, what causes low self image? I said, lack of unconditional love. And my mother, for all the things I had going on in my life, all the stupid I did, all the drugs and alcohol I was involved, and all the times I Got arrested for doing stupid. She loved me through it all. My mother told me she loved me every mother effing day of my life. Truthfully, to this day, if I called her right now, that'd be the first thing she says. So she. She. She raised me, worked really hard. You know, we lived in, you know, subsidized housing, and I knew that's not where I wanted to be. I knew at a very, very young age. You're talking about your kids. I knew at a very young age. I want to do a lot more. I knew at a very young age my brother had no desire to do anymore. And we lived in the same house, exact same circumstances. So I went to college, played baseball, got a degree, and then got myself a job immediately. Working with abused, neglected children. That was my deal.
- [04:57]
B
Well, real quick, I want to go a little bit deeper. Sure. On what you just talked about. So, you know, having that mom that had to work all the time. Right. You guys were kind of left to fend for yourselves. There was a lot of like, okay, dinner's on the table, or figured out, can of SpaghettiOs, whatever it is, 100. And you've got to just have a tremendous amount of resilience growing up in that. And I find that interesting that your resilience has got to be very high. But you said your brother's wasn't correct. So what do you think was the disconnect there?
- [05:28]
A
I'd like to give you a much better answer other than if you choose to be. If you choose to be unsuccessful, you're going to be unsuccessful. If you choose to be cowardly, you're going to be cowardly. If you choose to cry and mope and wine. And also, like, I got a faith, dude. And we. There's nowhere in that book anywhere that says to be a coward, be a punk, be a complainer, like, nowhere. I've read it. Like, I read a lot. And while I don't understand all of it all the time, it doesn't say that anywhere. So I think that was the path my brother chose, you know, So I chose to not be. What bothered me the most as a kid, to be honest with John, by far the most, was the way people looked at me. They looked at me based on what we didn't have. And I always knew it because I was. Listen, I was in AP classes in high school. I hated my AP classes because I hated the people in my class. And I'm like, none of you all play ball at all. I don't have any comment, but I Realized I really didn't love myself enough. And I felt uncomfortable around them because they were, they had good clothes, they're from good homes. And I just didn't fit in. So I was like, let me get out of these classes. But I knew I wanted something different and I knew that my brother didn't and I knew I wanted. My mother would always tell me, it's like people always say, why'd you want to be an entrepreneur? My father, who wasn't around, was a business owner. My father did not work hard. My father made good money. I mean, he lived his life. That was his life. And later in life I've come to build a relationship with him. Because after not talking to somebody for 10 plus years, you realize my bro is hurting you or hurting them, like, what does it matter? So I reached out to my man. We have, you know, we have the relationship that we have, but I built a lot of resilience to it. But I never thought of it that way. Like I, I knew that my mother dated guys and when they would come to the house and I would be 14, 15 years old and they'd be like, where's your mom? She's upstairs. She needs to hurry up. I'm like, bro, I will you up. Yeah, like I will smack the out of you. You talk like that about my mom again. Yeah, like, and look at me and ask me if you're like, I was really angry, kid. I'm probably still angry to be very honest with you.
- [07:28]
B
So, I mean, obviously angry at this situation.
- [07:31]
A
Very, very defensive, protective.
- [07:34]
B
Well, it's just, it's just interesting because you know, you said around the AP classes like you didn't fit in, you feel with those people, but yet deep down you were aspiring to be those hundred percent. So it's kind of, in a weird way, it's a stretch a little bit, but it's kind of almost like the obstacles, the way like, like that modern stoicism take from like Ryan Holiday.
- [07:53]
A
I mean, what's, hey, listen, what's the biggest struggle we deal with with our kids? Never, never going to know those struggles? Yeah, unfortunately. Well, that's fortunately, but unfortunately your kids are never going to know, nor am I.
- [08:05]
B
Well, and that's why it's also interesting that you know, for so many in the, in those poverty stricken parts of the country, sports is the way out.
- [08:12]
A
It was the only way out.
- [08:14]
B
But on the flip side of that now is a, your kids never knew that struggle. So I'm sure you utilize sports the same way we do in Our household as manufactured diversity 100%.
- [08:25]
A
And I think. I think for me, you know, it's funny that, you know, you building this real estate monster and all things you've done. My mother got a real estate license when I was probably 10, and it was the first thing she'd ever done outside of a job. And I remember my mom. You're talking about 1982.
- [08:45]
B
Yeah.
- [08:45]
A
But I can remember the dress she was wearing. I can remember being excited. I remember hearing the terminology open house. I didn't know, like, I had to ask my mom. And I was very inquisitive. And I had a neighbor who I don't know if she's still alive, but, boy, she was a bitch. And she, like, would come over and try to beat us up, up. And she was a brutal, brutal lady. And I remember my mother got a license. And she looked at my mom and she said, carrie, you know that you're never going to be successful at this right in front of us in our little apartment. And my mother was very passive. That's why I think I've also got to the point I watched people treat her verbally the way they were never going to treat me. And my mother quit, gave up her real estate three months into it. Don't even know if she ever made a sale. I don't think she ever made a sale. And I remember, like, feeling so happy for her and then realizing, like, dude, she's never going to try anything ever again. Yeah, never. And so I actually got my real estate license when I was like, 21. And I got it because of that. Like, I really wasn't, like, I didn't have a plan. I was a social worker. I was like, dude, everybody's getting their real estate license. Meaning, like, five guys I knew. But I'm like, why not get it? And then I started buying and selling property when I was 21, land, developing multifamily homes. And I, you know, built a pretty good real estate portfolio, which I sold later. But yeah, man, growing up, it really. What drove me.
- [09:59]
B
Was your mom an absolutist? Like, that would, like, if, like, because, like, dude, I. My, my. My wife's mother is like an absolutist. Like, got drunk and threw up when she was 21, never touched alcohol again, got married, got divorced, and never dated anybody else ever again. Like, like just checking off the box. And I've always thought, like, oh, my God, that. What a terrible way to go through life.
- [10:17]
A
I think my mother, she had a really, really tough upbringing.
- [10:23]
B
Yeah.
- [10:24]
A
You know, and Honestly, in fairness, so to my old man. And I think when you look back on it, you know, I had a guy tell me one day that every son and father go through three phases. First, your son idolizes you, then he demonizes you, then he humanizes you. And, man, I thought about my son. I mean, I coached all the sports. I was with him every minute of every day, you know, the. Idolize you and that. And what's weird is I started. You start thinking a lot when you get older and you're like, you know what, man? That mo man was like. He was an ass. But guess what, bro? There are things that happen to him he didn't do to me. So as much as I want to demonize him, I realized he's a human being, bro. So he's just a human.
- [11:03]
B
How much joy do you take in the fact that you broke that cycle?
- [11:06]
A
Oh, I take it, dude. I take a ton of joy in it. I think for me, you know, I've been. I've been sober 24 years. I love to drink. I love cocaine a lot more. I love drinking. I love smoking crack a lot.
- [11:19]
B
Oh, God.
- [11:19]
A
Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, if it didn't involve a needle, I did it.
- [11:23]
B
Oh, my God.
- [11:24]
A
Yeah, man. And. And I quit, actually, this past September 24th, was my 24th year.
- [11:30]
B
Who else has a similar story to that? He's in Florida now, too. Wow. What's his name? I did rehab clinics in. In Connecticut or in. In New England. Lives in Miami now.
- [11:41]
A
Eric.
- [11:42]
B
Eric Wolford.
- [11:43]
A
Okay.
- [11:43]
B
Do you know Eric?
- [11:44]
A
I do not.
- [11:44]
B
Okay. Yeah. You guys got Silver?
- [11:46]
A
Yeah, dude. You know, Silver story. So I, you know, and I think everybody. My family. So that was one of the first ones I broke. A graduate from college and all that. And I just, you know, wanted to be. You know, I wanted to. To your point, I wanted to be like those people on some level, but I wanted to have the same chances they had, and I had to convince myself that I could. And when I got into real estate, I started getting around people, and, you know, I did really well. And I worked at, like, ReMax and William Ravis. That's a big New England one. And I did really well. And I was like, working my job, and I'm like, dude, I'm like, number one agent, and I don't even work here full time. Like, y'all don't work. So I was like, this is such an awesome industry because you all don't do anything. The people in my office, I'm like, you just hang out like, this is easy. It's easy to beat you guys. And then I was like, I get to compete again. Like. Like, I thought I'd be playing baseball Till I was 35 years old, getting paid to do it. And I'm like, dude, I get to compete again. And that's what got my. My juices falling. So I realized I love to compete. I want to prove people wrong. I obviously developed a lot of resilience growing up, and I also haven't. That hasn't. Hasn't left me. I see a lot of folks that go make enough money to live on, dude, money. I have plenty of money. I'm not trying to be like, I've been very blessed. I've. Like, it's. It's. Sometimes I'm like, dude, this makes no sense. Like, it makes no sense. Like, you want to go eat? Yeah, let's take a yacht to a restaurant. Like, it's dumb. Let's fly a private jet. Like, it's really stupid, but. And it's surreal, but it's never made me want to slow down ever. Like, I've never been like, no, I don't feel like doing that today. Like, I want to be moving all day long every day, because I want to make a difference. I'm going to do things that give me a purpose.
- [13:24]
B
What? Okay, so, weird question. Do you think that.
- [13:27]
A
That.
- [13:28]
B
It's like you mentioned having issues with alcohol and drugs, whatever, and earlier in your life, many moons ago, that level? Because I find some people that I know that have issues with that. Right. Some people are addicted to those things because there's a hole in them. They're trying to fill a hole up. Right. And then some people are just addicted to it because it's fast and it's fun. Do you find that maybe your addiction level to that stuff is carried over into. And just change the addiction into now service?
- [13:55]
A
I think my addictive personality never left me. I think I was predisposed, exposed to addiction. Everybody in both sides of my family was. There were certainly holes in our lives that I think I wanted to fill. But the first time I drank, I loved it. I loved everything. I was probably 10. First time I smoked weed, I was maybe 12. I loved it. First time I did coke, I was maybe 14. I loved it. I love the way it made me feel. I love that I could escape life. And it wasn't until the love for me caught up to the damage. Like, I needed the love to avoid those holes, if you will.
- [14:31]
B
Yeah.
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A
And then, you know, and again, I did Some things like I, that I, you know, jumping off a hotel's roofs and doing stupid stuff, being happy and also realizing that, dude, God may not give me this many more chances, like one of these days I'm just gonna die. But yes, I am very honestly addicted to service. To service.
- [14:50]
B
Yeah. I love that dude. And here's the thing, man, you never know. I mean, so literally over the weekend in the last week, two friends of mine from my friend group in Orlando, like when I lived in Orlando, I lived there for a long time and two of my friends passed.
- [15:05]
A
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- [15:32]
B
More this week from that group. And I was talking to my phone, I'm like, that's six people that I would consider. And I'm not old and I'm 52 and that's six people.
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A
I'm 52 as well.
- [15:42]
B
So like you get it. Like you hit a certain age, there's no candlelight vigil anymore. There's no like, you know, they don't light. There's no like special thing. People just like, I mean, my buddy just went to bed Saturday night, didn't wake up. So you just never know how that is. And I love the idea of kind of letting go of some of those things. And you're never, I don't think you're ever going to replace that addictive personality. You're never going to place it. You got to, you got to put it somewhere positive. And I think putting it in that idea of your applying it to service to others is fascinating to me and I love that. So you were doing real estate. Let's, let's pick it up there. You're doing well. And then what happened then, man, it's.
- [16:21]
A
Funny because, you know, 2008, you know, the market did what it did and people always like, well, did you get out here? I've never, I don't make excuses for anything. So when two, when everything for those people that watch are Too young, like 2008, the world ended and really like it ended. I mean I had pro, I had, I had subdivisions, I was selling, I was, I bought the land, I developed land, I put the road in I was doing the home construction and I was selling 2700 square foot homes for half a million dollars. Post 2008, I was selling the exact same product. 230, 240, but. But guess what, dude, There were people that survived it pretty well, right? So I had a lot of rentals, I had a time, thousands of units, and they were all within 10 minutes of the.
- [17:06]
B
Okay, so what time frame is this from 20. So what time?
- [17:08]
A
Started at 21. And you're talking about this took me into my 30s. So I'm amassed in these. I have a great. Finally got a great. A guy I played ball with in high school. Because my real estate wasn't passive, it was active. I was the one doing everything. I was the one chasing.
- [17:23]
B
And I want to talk about that too, because we have a lot of real estate. People listen to this. And the biggest mistake that realtors make is they stay transactional. They don't realize, you know, for me, I talk about all the time transactions is the gas for the engine. It's not the car. And too many people treat it as a car. And talk about. So you started selling. You're beating up in your office, what was the catalyst? Like, how did you start. How did you make the switch to like, okay, I'm gonna start maybe being investor, maybe flipping, maybe doing this all.
- [17:49]
A
The way to develop everything anybody was doing to make money in real estate that I wasn't. I wanted a piece. So I thought, okay, I just represented John. John spec'd three homes. I sold them. Why can't I spec the homes? Why did John have to do it? That's weird. So I decided to start doing. Start new construction. So me and a few guys got involved and we built the company. And before you know What, I'm building 10 houses a month, which pretty decent sized homes. We're doing pretty well. Then I said to myself, why am I buying the land from somebody? Why don't I just buy raw pieces of land and develop it myself? Get a good engineer, good attorney, go into town, do everything on my own, learn how to do it, sit through the town meetings, learn each town in Connecticut how it works.
- [18:32]
B
Because this is before YouTube, dude.
- [18:34]
A
This is myself. How are you?
- [18:36]
B
How are you figuring this out? That's my question.
- [18:38]
A
Meetings, dude. I used to go to the town hall in Salem, Connecticut, before I bought anything and sit in their meetings. Planning, zoning, wetlands commission, zoning, board of appeals. I wanted to know how it all worked. I took notes. They would literally come over sometimes be like, are you here? It was public And I'm like, no, I'm just here to. They're like, are you. Do you work. Because the sound. We had newspapers. Like, you were in the newspaper. I'm like, no, I just wanna. And I literally was like, okay, there's nine people. Okay. They don't have a quorum. How does that work over here? Wait a minute. Why is this one attorney representing. Okay, got it. He must be big. He must do. Okay. He seems to get a. With the town planner. Then I'd be like, let me go talk to the town planner, Steve. So I did all this shit on my own. Okay. Then I was like, okay. So I learned that. And I'm like, okay, look at the engineering plans. I didn't know how to. So I start reading plans I had to replay. So I started talking to folks and learning. But it was. Yeah, man. And. And it's funny because I joke with these guys all the time. They go on YouTube and learn everything. And I'm like, okay, but you also won't get the YouTube video. Won't show you everything that happens that I got to pick up in two hours in a meeting. And I'm paying attention because it's easy to get dumb when you're watching YouTube. It's easy to stop thinking. And you think. And you also assume that what you're watching is true.
- [19:48]
B
Yeah, well. But I think what. What's happened with, you know, having the world's collective genius online in consumable videos has done two things. A, it's done. It's taught some people some stuff that isn't true, which I agree with what you're saying. But it also has made people lazy. Like, how many people are going to go do that now?
- [20:11]
A
That's why it was so easy for me. Nobody would do it. So I knew things that I thought everybody should know. And I'm like, then they were coming to me.
- [20:17]
B
Yeah.
- [20:18]
A
And saying, I got a raw piece of land. Will you help me develop it? I'm thinking, dude, all I've been doing is going to meeting. So you want me? And I'm like, sure, but I wouldn't do. And I'm like, my deal was I ain't doing it for free. I don't do shit for free. See, early on, I was really excited about. But I've got to a point where, like, you know what? If I do any of this, I could be doing something to make money. I have kids. I have a family. You're going to pay me.
- [20:39]
B
Yeah.
- [20:40]
A
Matter of fact, I was looking at My Life360 app because I had my daughter in there keeping hers, just, like, keeping Sav safe in California. She named it. My son was 8. And he. I still have the same one. He named that the. That we're tracking each other. And it said, pay me, Mike. Family. He was 8. And I remember always saying, like, said, I'm gonna be on the phone. I'm like, dude, I'll do it, but you're gonna fucking pay me. And. And my deal was. So I started getting involved in so many aspects. I started doing really well financially better than I ever thought I would do. And I loved real estate. Was really a passion of mine. And post 08, the rentals went through the roof. It was unbelievable. Matter of fact, I probably wouldn't have sold them, except I had a company from China reach out through a broker I knew. And I was like, what are they doing here? He's like, the casinos. There's so many people coming from China to work and gamble and the whole deal. And I'm like, all right, what would they. I want. I'm only gonna sell them as one. I'm not going through what. Like, if the number's big enough and fat enough, I will sell it.
- [21:36]
B
Yeah.
- [21:36]
A
And it matter of fact, got to the point where I almost lost the deal because I had to use his broker because he brought them to me. And he's a nice guy, but, like, God. And I'm like. And it was painful. And at one point, he called me late, and he's like, hey, they. There's permits from, like, 40 years prior to me owning them. He's like, we're just going to push back on them. And I'm like, dude, how much do they want? He's like, 50 grand. I'm like, just pay it. Just pay it. Like, what are we doing here? And I'm like, but you realize how people. They want to die on the wrong hill all the time. And I sold those properties. When I tell you that Covid. I first heard about COVID because this is how long it took. I held onto for quite some time. I sold those. And 14 days later, covet. And then two months later, in Connecticut, moratorium, don't pay your rent. I had tenants that didn't know that I sold them.
- [22:30]
B
Yeah.
- [22:31]
A
That would call my guy and be like, hey, like, all excited. Like, we're not gonna pay rent, dude. I could have bought my problem for 30 cents in the dollar. And I didn't. I was like, you know what, dude? Once that happened with the government, it freaked me Out. I was like, dude, they can do some stupid. Don't ever underestimate how dumb the government can be. Oh yeah, you know, I mean the US government's won two rewards and prints on money, but they can do some stupid. So I was like, all right, you know what? So that, but that's, that was my. In real estate. And dude, it's so funny that, you.
- [22:59]
B
Know, like the Chinese when they were buying here in those times, I mean, see, I had the exact opposite experience, man. Like when 2008 hit this was, this was ground central for foreclosures. I was the number one. Like LPS was, that was, was the foreclosure house. They were the biggest one. The robo signing cops, right? They were the ones we down for that. I was their number one agent in the entire United States.
- [23:17]
A
Crazy.
- [23:18]
B
I was going to work with, you know, fucking board shorts on, flip flops and turn the computer on and there'd be 30 new listings. And then we were just kind slinging them. But at one point like I had a bunch of Chinese contacted me about it and then it was like it was the what it was still to this day outside of Schneider Twain, probably one of the wildest experiences I ever had in real estate, which was, it was a bus full of Chinese people and we would, I just put them on a giant bus and we pulled to a house and they wouldn't even go across the threshold. They would literally stick their head in the front door, look left, look right and go, yep, you buy this one? Yep, we buy this one. Yep, we buy this one. And dude, just. And it was crazy.
- [23:56]
A
We, we. Right before my deal was closing, they disputed. They said they did not believe my rent rolls were accurate. They said there's just no way because I had a very low vacancy rate. I did not have delinquent tenants. I had thousands of them. And I said, why don't you just ask me how I do it? I'll tell you all. And they're like, well the guy's like, my bro. Well, they don't really said, dude, do me a favor. I said, Pick 15 units. Any 15 you want. 15, give them 24 hour notice. I'll meet the guy myself. I will drive him. You guys pick the 15, we'll go to the places, verify somebody lives there. If they're home, we'll talk to him. Like, let's just do that. Yeah, so we did it. They agreed to do it. Not everybody's home, but after about six hours he's like, okay, what do you do And I said, well, it's easy. All. There's 50 guys like me around here. I'm one of the biggest. But there's 50 of us. There's a few individual people that have a property or 85 to 90% of the home, the landlords. The property owners don't even live in Connecticut. They've retired and moved to Florida. At the time I was in my 20s and 30s, they were 70 or 80. So I would say, hey, John, listen, let me ask you something, bro, before I rent this to you. What do you think the chances are that you're going to get in a place where you can't pay your rent? And I mean ever, John, you'll say, probably never. You're awesome. You're never going to fucking problem. Cool. I go, john, let me explain how this works. Me and my property manager, we live within 10 minutes. So if you don't pay rent, we're going to be so fucking annoying. I mean like here all the time, knock on the door, we might walk in because we might think you're unsafe. We might call 911 and think you're unsafe. We might be parked outside. We're going to text, dude, we're just a pain in the ass. The rest of these guys, they don't, they won't even know. You'll be four months into not paying rent before they send you a fucking letter. Me, I know the family relations people. I know the people at the courthouse here. I know everybody down there, dude. Path of least resistance. If you think it's going to be a problem ever, dude, just rent from them. They won't even screen you out. They'll never even meet you. And people are like, that doesn't work. My dude. It worked all the time. If I wasn't going to pay. And he was like, I don't give a. At all. And you were like, you do. I'm like, I'd go with him.
- [26:10]
B
Yeah.
- [26:10]
A
Why would I not? That doesn't make any kind of sense. So we, we really worked really, really hard. You understand my first job, 16 well.
- [26:17]
B
Plus too, dude, when you get somebody to verbalize something like that, like, no, I am never gonna not be pay my rent right? Like people, dude, it's so for the psychology of that. It's same thing with a tie down in sales. But like people just have this need for people to know like and respect them. And they're like, I told this guy I was going to pay my rent even though the lease says it, right? Even though it's assumed you're going to do it.
- [26:38]
A
And if you know that you're going to not pay your rent, you're not going to pick me. Yeah. Because I'm going to annoy you. Yeah, you're going to pick the other dude. The guys were actually calling me, this guy named Eddie. He would call me, he'd be like, did you interview so and so I'm like, did you rent to him?
- [26:51]
B
Yeah, them.
- [26:52]
A
I would give them their number sometimes. But dude, this guy's real hit.
- [26:54]
B
Like this guy.
- [26:55]
A
Call this guy. Like I'm just telling you based on you on a pain. Because I think that the thing for me was my first job at 16. This guy just passed away. Outstanding guy was a big mentor. My professional baseball player, Yankees, Rangers, Red Sox and huge real estate guy in Connecticut. You're talking about in the early 90s. My first job, like outside of McDonald's grocery store job, was going to the job site, meeting these guys, taking a truckload of four by fours, going to people's apartments, screwing the four by fours, two of them to their door if they were delinquent on rent. I mean, I, you can't do it, shouldn't do it, it's all awful. But, but think about this. I never forget going like, what are we doing? And I remember that one of the, the ladies, her and her husband, they called the police and the husband came, the police came out, we're there and I'm like, dude, are y'all sure this is legal? Like, I mean, I use coke and, and I do dumb. And I beat guys up and this.
- [27:54]
B
Seems like what, I'm going down.
- [27:56]
A
What if there's a fire or something? And I'll never forget the cop saying to the guy, did you pay your rent? And he goes, well, he goes, I'm just, Sir, I'm just asking. I'm going to get him to remove the 4 by 4. It's a safety hazard. Did you pay your rent? No. I suggest you pay. But it was, but you know, I think for me, what people have to understand is the psychology behind most people. I mean, it's cowardly for me not to pay you if I owe you money. Yeah, I'm a coward if I do that. If I owe you money and I don't pay you, I'm a coward. Cowards are cowards consistently. Cowards are cowards consistently. You know, men that beat up women don't go fight men now. They, they're, they're cowards. So I was like, dude, all we gotta do is ask them enough Questions they're going to bat down. So it was. Real estate was really, you know, and I had a lot of really good tenants and people.
- [28:45]
B
Did you, did you get in trouble for the, for the.
- [28:47]
A
Dude, I worked there for like a day.
- [28:49]
B
Because. Okay, so I'll tell you a funny story. So my brother in law inherited from his father in north Florida a trailer park. Like not a good trailer park, like trailer park. And he goes out there the first time and he meets the property manager, Skeeter or whatever his name was, and he's like, yeah, you know, man. And this was one of those joints where like they had a utility grid that they could turn the power on and off to each individual trailer by the week.
- [29:12]
A
Kind of like that.
- [29:13]
B
And so he goes up there and like the first or second time he went out there, Skeeter's like, man, yeah, these dudes out trailer too, man, they ain't paid in a while, so we gotta get rid of them. And he's like, hey, get rid of me. And this is a true story, I swear to God. He put, he opened the door, he opened the front of the door. They wouldn't answer. So the dude opened it with his key and sent two fucking rottweilers in the trailer. And out the dudes came fumbling the back window, blah, blah. And my brother in law standing there like, holy shit. Like, we can't be like, this can't be. They're going to call the cops. And Skeeter looks at my brother in law and goes, Mr. John, he goes, man, people rent trailer by the week ain't gone law.
- [29:49]
A
Exactly true, but it's true.
- [29:51]
B
And he ended up, they ended up turning the power off on somebody else's trailer and he did get arrested for it. So my brother lined up having to go, what was funny at the time, in front of my dad, it was the judge over turning the power off in some trailers. That's why I asked if you got trouble.
- [30:07]
A
It was a different world, man. Different world, man. I think it. But it, but listen, I learned a lot. It was very good to me. I enjoyed it. Like I enjoy everything about real estate, to be honest with you. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
- [30:18]
B
Well, let's get. Dude, let's talk about, let's shift into insurance, dude, because that is a business near and dear to my heart. I made a bunch of money in that business early in my career. So how did you get started there?
- [30:30]
A
So I had a guy approach me weirdly enough. In 08, I was buying a four family home. He was A real estate broker listing it. And he said, you ever think about, you know, find other ways to make money? I'm like, well, dude, like, I have money. I'm not. I ain't. But I'm. But I'm always open. What do you got? And I assumed it was something real estate related. And he said, you ever heard of mortgage protection? And I said, and I hadn't. I said, and I've no. You mean like selling mortgages? And he's like, no, no. Mortgage, tax and life insurance. And I said, the guy named Jim? I said, no, Jim, I've never heard of it. And he said, well, you. You get your license. And. And I really didn't pay him any mind. He probably tried to recruit me four times. I didn't really pay him any attention. But the fourth time he came to me with a lead and he hand me this. This form, his piece of paper and client's name on it. Explained the product. They put their name, date of, or signed it. Put like a little code words for me, called them. And I was like, let me see it. So I took the thing and I called it on my cell phone. And he's like, what are you doing? I'm like, just call him. So the guy answered, and I'm just like, hey, dude, like, you fill this thing out. My name is Sean. I'm getting back to you. Got your information. You wanted some information. Mortgage, traction, insurance. Do you remember doing that? He's like, no. I said, cool, I have the form. Your date of birth. Oh, yeah, I do. I said, cool, I'll be out tomorrow, whatever time. So I hang up. And he's like, dude, how'd you know how to do that? I'm like, it's a lead, bro. Like, what are you talking about? I said, but I need my license. He's like, yeah, dude, you can't sell me to get your license. So I said, all right, you know, I'm gonna get my license. I was intrigued by the lead. Got my license about four or five days. I still had no desire to do anything. I just figured, I get the license, can't hurt maybe myself, my sell myself, apologies to my buddies, whatever. And so I got my license about four or five days. And about two weeks later on a weekend, I was like, you know what, dude? I'm gonna freaking call some leads this weekend.
- [32:10]
B
What was the first contract you were on with him?
- [32:12]
A
What was my contract level with him?
- [32:15]
B
90, 10, 7 month advance.
- [32:17]
A
What was kidding me? I was at a. I was at a 55% term, 38% final expense contract. Oh, but you understand, I know about life insurance.
- [32:29]
B
Yeah.
- [32:29]
A
In real estate, I'm getting 6%. Getting half. Obviously the transactions are. But to me, I'm like, you know what, dude, I got my license and I didn't even ask. Actually at first I was like. Because I was just so, so new to the business. Funny you asked that because I worked at that company for five years on that split. No, I moved to 110, which still was. Okay, 110 mortgage.
- [32:50]
B
You're taking a seven month advance or no, ten month. Ten month advance.
- [32:53]
A
Yep. And, and I, what happened at that company? It was, I was at my, my fifth year, my annual convention. And I've always struggled with recognitions. Not important to me. That doesn't make me right. Not politically in recognitions. Really. Like the parking space out there, Number one agent, I'd want it. But if it was that over money, give me the money. Yeah, if you're like, dude, we want my. I'll take the money and I'll park.
- [33:18]
B
You didn't see a parking space out there with mine?
- [33:20]
A
No, I know, but I know what I'm saying. I saw that.
- [33:21]
B
You saw my car parked.
- [33:22]
A
Exactly. I don't, but, but I, I really struggle with that. So I was at an event and the, the guy that owned the company said, hey man, you're our number one income producer for the year. And I'm like, I've been the morning come producer for three years and I've been here five. And he said, yeah, but I need you to do me a favor. I, I want you to talk about top line income in gross. And I said, well I do. I talk about top line and bottom line and expenses, and that's what I'm always going to do. He's like, I know, but you, you're oversharing. And I said, well, it's my information, I'm confused now that my peers would get up there and go, I made 740, 000 a share. I'm like, dude, he netted 80 grand. Yeah, like he didn't. So I said, and I remember him really pushing back nicely to me, but he was just like, I really just wish you would. And I got up, I said, dude, either I don't have to get on stage, it's not that big a deal to me, but I'm knocking up a lot of the people because I'm going to serve Mike. I lied to him. And then it hit me, dude, I'm making that year. I made 1.4 million gross, dude. I didn't make 200 grand. I didn't make $200,000. I didn't. The fees, the. It was crazy.
- [34:28]
B
Wow.
- [34:29]
A
So I decided to launch my own.
- [34:31]
B
Company after five years, being one of their top people. Barely broke 200 GS in that. In that business.
- [34:37]
A
Correct. Yeah, but you'd be.
- [34:42]
B
So your expense. Were they providing you leads? Were you generating your own leads?
- [34:46]
A
I was buying leads. I was paying lead override. Every time a guy in my organization bought a lead, I had to pay for it. I had monthly fees, weekly fees, training fees, just getting zapped. Anything they could get me on, they got me on. And the reality was that I was. I already had money. Like, I was broke. I was making money, and I enjoyed doing what I was doing. So I decided. It's funny, because even then, I'm like, you know what, man? This isn't going well. I flew down to the corporate office, met with the owner of the company. I said, dude, here's the deal. Cut me a new deal. I'm by far number one guy. I ain't hurt nobody. Cut me into a deal so I can pay my guys more, because I want my guys to make more money, too.
- [35:26]
B
Yeah, sure.
- [35:26]
A
I want to get a better deal. I want to make more money. I know how to structure it so I know how to do this. I can show you the grid and how you break the comp down. I know what the bonuses look like. I like. I know what I'm doing. Help me cut a deal for my agency. We're the biggest. And in person, he was like, yep, sounds good. Sounds good. Sounds good. And about a day later, he calls me with, like I call liquid courage. Every drunk guy wants to. He's ready to fight until you punch him in the face. And he's all drunk, and he's like, don't ever ask me that stuff again. I'm never going to do that. And I made a decision to quit. So December 12th of 2013 was the day I quit. Launched Family First Life. And people say, what was your goal, dude? I just wanted to have a better situation, but I didn't think we'd have 30,000 agents. I don't think we'd do a billion a year. I just was. I was just excited to be. I mean, most people in our space don't even think about doing 50 million a year. There's guys that have huge podcasts, huge presence. They can't do 60 million a year. It doesn't make them bad people. It's just like, they don't know how to do it. So we built something that really took off, and it's been great and been one hell of a ride. And, you know, it's funny, I was at a. I was on a plane the other day, the guy walks down the aisle, he's like, rogue imo. And I'm like, what? He's like, you used to run ads everywhere called the rogue imo. Are you an insurance? Because I'm not even in insurance. I don't even know what the rogue IMO means, but I couldn't get out of my mind. So anyway, talking later while I was waiting the baggage claim, and he's like, dude, what was that all about? I'm like, we just want everybody to know we were doing something different. When you start and you're starting in established industry, if you ain't got a difference, you ain't got an edge, ain't got a better value prop, you're screwed.
- [36:50]
B
So it's so funny, man. You got. It's like in some of the businesses we're in, we compete against behemoths. You know, we're out there and, you know, we're competing for talent or talking to people. It's like in those interviews, I'm always like, look, you can go work on a cruise ship, and it takes really slow to do, you know, really slow to get anywhere, really slow to turn, really slow to that. Or you come jump on the pirate ship with me. Yeah, we are fast and nimble, and we love to take shots at the cruise ship. And we will take. We will steal from them. And it's that same idea. I love that. And because you need, I think to have a good startup, you need people.
- [37:22]
A
That want to be on that pirate ship. And also, dude, I sold. I think, you know, you. One of the reasons you've probably been really successful is, dude, you sold.
- [37:31]
B
We do.
- [37:31]
A
I think it's hard for men and women that want to launch something and be the sales manager leader. It's all. It's hard, dude, because they don't know what you're going through. They don't know what it's like to drive three hours to a listen appointment. They don't know what it's like to go to somebody's house and get porched where you're going to meet with them, sell life insurance, and they're inside going like. And it's funny. So when I started, I would do stuff that people thought was crazy. I got to go to your house. And we had an appointment. I'd knock on door, I could hear you and your wife inside. And I'm like, well, fuck, I. We booked an appointment. I bought your lead. So I would just text you and I'd be like, hey, John, listen, Sean, Mike, I'm here for our appointment. I can hear y'all inside. I'm going to call 911. I'm obviously concerned for your safety, and I would do that. Like, I'm like, I'm concerned for your safety. I don't know if it's a home invasion or something happened, but I can hear you all. I'm assuming you're in danger. And they would open the door and somebody be like, dude, what did you do? I'm like, I got in the house, I sold the life insurance. Like, what are you talking? But also part of me was like, if you don't respect your time, why would anybody else?
- [38:25]
B
Yeah, no kidding.
- [38:26]
A
And I ain't wasting my time, bro.
- [38:28]
B
People treat you. Exactly.
- [38:29]
A
You better believe it, dude. Exactly.
- [38:31]
B
We let them do it. So you started out this in how many ages? So, I mean, how did you start? What? Tell us. Walk me through the evolution of this business. So in most businesses like yours, there's got to be a lead source. So did you establish a lead source first? Did you vertically. How quickly did you vertically integrate lead source? Because I'm assuming you have got to be vertically integrated.
- [38:50]
A
So here's the funny thing. It's interesting story we did when we started. So we, we. We had our own mail warehouse that we worked with that I had a deal with that guy and it was pretty much our mail warehouse. As leads evolve, YouTube, IVR, all the stuff we did in social media, we did a lot of it. And then probably three years ago, it got to a point where I was like, wait a minute, I can teach you how to do the leads. I can show you how to do it. We pay you better comp. Anyway, we got crazy good bonuses. A little bit of a lot becomes a lot of money. We're doing great. You know what? Wherever you buy the leads from, you can buy them from. Matter of fact, we just wanted because for us to manage, there's the lead gen. Business has changed so much. You understand 100% of what I did when I started was direct mail.
- [39:39]
B
Yeah, it's all mail.
- [39:40]
A
That's all it was. And now with what we do, I mean, it's, it's met. I mean, social media, it's where everything spread. And the lead, the acquisition is cheaper, the quality is really good, and Then post Covid, it's all virtual, you understand? We were 198% face to face.
- [39:57]
B
So you're doing.
- [39:58]
A
It's all zoom now, 98% zoom. We went literally. So these guys are getting on the phone, getting on zoom from their house, from an office, however many days a week, how many hours a week. But we literally, when Covid hit, I remember people like, what are you going to do? Well, we kept running appointments, we would bring our lawn chairs because people would say to me, what are we going to do? I'm like, dude, I don't know. We have to be whatever. Social distancing. How close are you to your clients anyway? Like, I sit down and talk to them. They're like, what do you do with your clients? Like, I don't get that close to snuggling on the. Like, we ain't sit on my lap like they're there, I'm here. We're getting them insurance. So it. But yeah, so now it's funny, we did integrate all that. We do have a great platform. And it's funny, you talk about the tech, give you an idea of startups. We had a man, we were so deficient technologically by the time we were three years in because we didn't anticipate having thousands and thousands of agents. So I remember when I was looking at like the infrastructure and had a guy come in and do a whole deal and, and it's funny, one of the guys that works in my office that managed it said, what do you think it's going to cost us? I said, ah, a couple million and come back and I'm like, it's like 7 million. You know what I mean? And it's funny because what people don't know about scale and we've always been really aggressive, like your pirate ship analogy, you know, we throw it in, we're, you know, I was already making some money other places the first couple years. Dude, I wouldn't take any money out of the company. Yeah, we were killing it. But I was like, dude, I'm good. And I never needed to. So the guys that were trying to compete with me do. They needed to make so much money and keep so much money. And I didn't, you know, did you.
- [41:30]
B
Have a scaling plan? Like, do you use eos, any of this? Like, are you running anything like that in your business?
- [41:35]
A
You know, if I told you that that was my, that was my compass, I'd be lying to you. I mean, I understand them, we've looked at them. Here's what we had. We had this idea that if we believe we have the best value proposition in America, which I still believe that we do and nobody can prove me otherwise, we're by far the biggest. So I in our space. So I said, okay, if we do that and we can leverage social media, build people's self images up and teach them be leaders and then we can start instead of being so focused on here's your sales training is great, we have everything put together. But what if we took every agent and said we need to get you to 25,000 legitimate followers? Like what if we leverage social media like nobody ever has? And then we just started recruiting everybody to the point where like get online at night if they're in the business. If they're not in the business, ask them if they want to make more money, they make more money here. That seems pretty simple.
- [42:29]
B
That's it.
- [42:29]
A
That's it. And we're going to treat them great. We're not going to micromanage them. Those that can't manage micromanage. And we're by far the biggest. So if we're by far the biggest, it has to be working because we do the most volume.
- [42:38]
B
Well, let's go backwards because obviously once you become the biggest or you, you get size of your company, it almost becomes a vacuum and you create, just create gravity to your company. What was the hardest thing about getting the first 10 to commit?
- [42:51]
A
Oh, early on recruiting.
- [42:52]
B
Yeah. The first 10, you, you're in office, I'm open, let me get my first 10. And I'm not talking about the 10 you already knew that followed you from the company. I'm talking about the real first ten.
- [43:02]
A
The funny thing was it was, it was hard because there was no proof of concept. So it was hard because what people would ask is, hey man, like how do you know it's going to work? Because you just started in. My deal was I was like, I don't know if it will and they would. I'm like, I don't. I'm. Here's what I do know though. We're going to be the biggest IMO you've ever seen your life or we're going to go down a ball of flames. Either way, it's going to be a lot of fun. I ain't going to hurt you. I'm not going to lie to you and shit, you're probably more than I'm going to make early on, but that's what we're going to do. But if you want me to look, you in the eyes, John, tell you I'm 100% sure we're going to succeed. I'm not 100% sure I will not quit. 100% sure I won't quit. 100% sure I won'T back down. 100 sure I'll give it everything I got. And I ain't no punk, but am I 100 sure it's gonna work? No. Are you in or you're out? And the also reality was, what are you committing to? My idea is what are you committing to?
- [43:50]
B
Yeah.
- [43:50]
A
Like, let's just say. Let's just say. Because people would say to me, you give way too much comp. Early on. I'd be like, okay. And I used to tell everybody, like, I go to these meetings and my competitors would be there, and I'm like, dude, don't let me make it three years. Make it three years. You're all. You're. So now we do this during a meeting. I'm like, you're. So if I make it three years, you're. Because I give away so much to come. But if a little bit of a lot becomes like a Home Depot sit. And you're Smith's hardware and you keep too much money. Don't let me get there. I'm like, so you all better get together and take me out within three years. All y'all. And I would say that all the time because I like talking. It's my favorite part.
- [44:21]
B
Was there. Was there a collective effort to you?
- [44:23]
A
Oh, hell, yeah. They all hate me. Which drove me even more. Yeah, you know, I was like, dude, all of you together. I don't worry about Dude.
- [44:29]
B
It's. It's so funny because people don't realize when. When you. Especially when you're a business like. Like insurance or real estate, any. Any service business where there's some large players, like, when you make that transition in anything through vertical integration or whatever, from customer to competitor, bro, it is like. It's like some days we wake up and it's like, I feel like I'm North Korea.
- [44:50]
A
I know. But, dude, what's weird for me is I don't know what I would do without that. Yeah, I need that.
- [44:55]
B
I love it.
- [44:56]
A
I need it. And, you know, it's funny because I was reading. Have you read the. It's 38 letters John D. Rockefeller wrote to his son. It's a great book. And one of the letters is about that. He's talking about the railways and. And gold and all things they were doing back in the day. And he was Just elaborating on how awesome that part of the deal is, knowing that everybody's coming at you because you want to be the biggest. And I think, you know, it's funny, it's hard to explain it sometimes to your kids. It's like, dude. Well, I don't take it personally.
- [45:27]
B
Oh, dude.
- [45:27]
A
Like, well, they say this about you. I'm like, dude, people are always going to say about you.
- [45:30]
B
Well, it's like I always tell my winning. I always tell my kids. It's like it doesn't matter if we're talking good or talking bad. It's when they stop talking.
- [45:35]
A
Amen. True statement.
- [45:37]
B
And I think that, you know, back to what you said about the letters from John D. Reckon's son. I mean, I think if you got kids, there's a series called the Men who Built America on Discovery. Like that should be. That should be in school.
- [45:48]
A
No doubt.
- [45:49]
B
Like that should be playing in schools. I don't care if my kids.
- [45:52]
A
It's amazing the stuff those guys did. Those. The real heroes. Yeah. Savages.
- [45:57]
B
Unbelievable stuff. Like JP Morgan's and those guys doing that. And that's you, dude. I mean, that's savages, dude. To get to 30, I don't think people can understand the scope of 37,000 independent real estate agents because, like, it's just, it's insane. Because when you think about, like the difference between like what I do here in our company, like we have 585 agents and that's a lot. That's a shitload of people, right? But like we have this place where they come to work every day. Like you have 37,000 independent people that wake up and all of them don't do this. But a large percentage of them do with your sales are self motivated.
- [46:35]
A
Correct.
- [46:36]
B
To get up and perform the jobs and tasks they have. And I can appreciate that because one of my favorite stories I tell people all the time is when I have my insurance agency, right? Like my number one sales guy in Tampa was killing it. It's crushing it. And all of a sudden he started blowing the leads off, started going to play golf too much, started doing this. And as a CEO of the company, you got to fire that guy.
- [46:55]
A
Right.
- [46:55]
B
The only problem was that guy was me because I was the CEO and the sales guy.
- [46:59]
A
Yeah.
- [46:59]
B
So I had to say, like, I got to get some middle management in my life, which became my phone. And ever since then, if it goes on my phone, that's just it. I don't care what happens if it's in the phone. That is going to happen, which is crazy. So the fact that you got that many people performing at that level is amazing. How do you, how do you build culture in a remote work world, man?
- [47:19]
A
You know, it's funny, pre Covid, I had an idea to get to or I wanted to go to. I wanted to add 400 offices in a 12 month period. 400 across the country, brick and mortar offices, dude, I'm. And I blow by 400 and then covet hits. And I mean I had, I had guaranteed leases everywhere. I had, you know, 40,000 square feet in Atlanta, 52,000 in Salt Lake City. It was. And I remember people coming to me and going, you know, what are we going to do? And people aren't going to come back to the office. They're not going to. And the. One of my best gifts is I don't get rattled ever. Never. I've lost a bunch of money, I made a bunch of money. I'm doing the best that I can. I'm going to get great information, I'm going to be around. People can help, but I'm not going to crumble. So like, you know, we had to really. It's a great question, John. Because we really had to build a virtual culture. So we had to take the structure that was in the offices best we could because short term goals and structure will give people a sense urgency. And I'm like, okay, how do we get the. How do we get str. So we started doing things that were structured to your point. I'm okay. Every day, every, whatever. Thursday at this time I'm doing this for this group people. Every Friday I'm doing this for this group of people. And then what I started doing is I started traveling and getting other people to travel to people and doing a pull together events. Okay, you don't have the office. Cool. Got it. All right. Yeah. We do an annual convention once a year. You know what, what let's start doing. So they came up with this terminology lock ins. So they would get an Airbnb or a few of them in a city. 40 agents would fly in there, stay together for four days. They would do it like every three months. So you built that culture.
- [49:10]
B
I love that.
- [49:11]
A
Face to face in a lock in. And then it's like, hey man, zero.
- [49:14]
B
Overhead expense other than the small rental.
- [49:16]
A
Correct. And now it's like you get some paid son, some food, you're dialing all day long. Everybody's got their phone. You that, you got an Airbnb, it's got horseshoes Volleyball. You play around a little bit, take them top, go off, everybody goes home. But it gave them that camaraderie. And then off of that, what they did was Zoom dials. So it's like, okay, dude, you did office meetings, right? Why don't we do the show and Zoom. When do you dial? Here are the days I doubt Good. Do it all on Zoom.
- [49:37]
B
Yeah.
- [49:37]
A
You know, well, I gotta. They're gonna. They gotta get off the. They gotta get on the video. And I'm like, hey, they're independent contractors. And that was the other thing, teaching people. Stop trying to treat people that are independent contractors like they're your employees.
- [49:49]
B
Yeah.
- [49:49]
A
They're not your employees. And just because you had an office and they came in, they're now at home. If they decide, dial four hours a day, two hours a day, recruit more people, the answer is always new blood.
- [50:00]
B
Yeah.
- [50:00]
A
So stop beating them down for what you're not doing. And good self assessment on your part where you're like, hey, dude, like, I was just not as engaged. So it kind of starts moving sideways.
- [50:10]
B
Yeah.
- [50:11]
A
Yeah. So are you engaged, bro? So we have a lot of support virtually. And what's happening now, I'd say over the last probably six months now we have people off in offices again because a lot of the people themselves miss. Yeah. The culture, they miss it. And I'm like, dude, I'm not. You guys want to do it? I'm going. I had a grand opening in Tampa last week. I'm going to Denver next week, Kentucky the week after that. So I'll fly in. I'm going to speak to an hour, get them all fired up, see their new office. But it's their office and they decide to have it because they want to be in person.
- [50:37]
B
Yeah. So when you're looking at a market that wants an office, do you get, like, letters of commitment for office rental space? You just provide it. I mean, are you subbing pre Covid?
- [50:47]
A
Oh, dude, I was. It was the wild, wild west and I. And it was. We were growing so much. I'm like, okay, you know what? That's going to run me 35amonth.
- [50:55]
B
Cool. Do it.
- [50:55]
A
How many agents? Yeah, it was easy. I'm like, we have 12 offices. I couldn't. I couldn't even keep up. We had too many people.
- [51:01]
B
Yeah.
- [51:01]
A
So I'm like, okay, you know what? That's going to charge three grand a month. There's 36, covers the whole deal. Boom. It's triple. Now here's how we get it. Boom. And I don't want to make any money, but I don't want to lose any money either. I don't care if I make any money. So we didn't even have to now post Covid I might. Dude, you better get all this stuff. And we've gotten people to take a breath. I didn't need. Some of the space I have is like, oh my God, like, we didn't need it. It's great. It's got a gym, a cafeteria, penthouse bar up top. That's outstanding. So now it's like, how much that cost? You don't commit. We don't do long term leases because you don't know what's going to happen with the business. So these guys will call me and I'll be like, dude, you can find something. You don't need to sign a 5. You don't need to do that. Like, take a breath, relax.
- [51:39]
B
Yeah, that's. That's always been the philosophy we've kind of had here, which is like, I treat our office spaces for our company like. Like a restaurant, right? Which means I'd rather be the dude where it's impossible to get a table because I don't have any open offices than the dude that's looking around at a bunch of empty offices like, I.
- [51:54]
A
Hope somebody comes ours or guys are hanging off the walls.
- [51:56]
B
Yeah, dude.
- [51:57]
A
Which is good. Yeah, it's a. Like, I want 140 people there when it only holds 112.
- [52:01]
B
We're squeezing yen best we can is always my philosophy. I want to go back because you said, I don't ever get rattled. And I love that because I could see the passion in your eye when you said that. Right. Walk me through. Walk me through your process.
- [52:14]
A
When adversity strikes, I get excited because that means I had to compete. Because adversity, it might be a person, it might be a situation, it might be an entity outside of us, it might be me, right? So I think that it inspires me and motivates me, number one. And I'm a prospective guy, so I'm thankful that I had that adversity. I'm every day, legitimately, I'm like, I could be in a. And I know that it's so easy to say, well, that's a simple. I get it, Sean. It's like, but why don't you live it? Getting it and living it are two different things. And I also realize that the people around me, for the most part, don't love adversity. You know, like, and for me, you know, it's Funny. I was at my house at gym, upstairs, down the hall. That's about four months when my daughter was home from college. And she's like, hey, there's a guy at the front door knocking. When I said, what's it look like? She told me. And I go. She goes, he got his hands behind his back. I said, oh, he's a process server. He's going to serve me something. So I go downstairs and I'm like. I opened door. He's like, oh. I said, just give it to me. Don't be weird. Yeah, give it to me. It's awkward. So he does, and I shut the door and I put him with it. And she goes, what is it? I said, I'm going to sue for something. And she's like, what do you do? And I said, what do you mean? She goes, do you care? I mean, she's. My daughter's 22 years old at the time. And I go, do I care? In what way? What do you mean? And she goes, well, don't you want to, like, go through it and figure it out? I said, no, I have an attorney that does that.
- [53:38]
B
Yeah, it's his job.
- [53:38]
A
And. And later that night, she goes, you don't really care, huh? And I said, savannah, if there's something that happened, you and your brother, I care. But in business, I ain't getting rattled, you guys. Hell if a. You know, my daughter had a moth fly in her ear one night. I thought she had God knows what in there. She was screaming, dude, I was losing my God bless her mind, driving her 12 minutes because she was a little kid, you know what I mean? Watching my son throw a baseball and watching his arm break at 14, 15, it was awful. That rattled me. Yeah, Business, us competing. You taking a shot at me. Bring it. Like, now I'm alive, bro. Like, yeah, you picked the right guy. Let's go. And I think for me, I get excited. And I also know that the calmer I can be, the more productive the people around me can be. And also, I want the adversity. Meaning. Yeah, I coach my sons ball sports, baseball, basketball, football. And I have one of his buddies who works with with me in insurance, makes 300 grand a year. 21 years old. 22 years old. And I said, what was the greatest thing I taught you about basketball? Now, John, when I tell you that I am not a good basketball player, dude, I play in high school because I was an athlete. I hate basketball. It don't make any sense to me. I like tackling people. I like Hitting. I don't. I'm just not my game, bro. Yeah. You know, know. And I don't know a lot about it. Like, nobody was asking me what played around at the end of game in high school. All I knew was screen from my buddy Mike, get a rebound, and my coach would say, don't shoot my basketball, meaning I had to give it to somebody that could shoot.
- [55:05]
B
Yeah.
- [55:06]
A
Like, I understood that concept. So I remember I was asked him on a podcast. I said, what's the greatest thing I taught you about basketball? He got real quiet. I go, dude, do I know anything about basketball? Like, y'all played in college. Y'all play over places? Like, no, not really. I said, cool. Thank you. I don't know anything. What did I teach you? He said, honestly, greatest thing you taught me was to not be afraid of anything, like, ever. And I wanted people to be mad at me. The adversity. The adversity strikes me. That means it ain't striking y'all. I'd rather have it be me. So if I walk in the gym and I talk to everybody, they're mad at me, not my players.
- [55:33]
B
Yeah.
- [55:34]
A
And then if something happens to my players and I make more of a scene myself, they're mad at me, and I want them to be mad at me.
- [55:39]
B
How do you deal with somebody when they let you down?
- [55:42]
A
I. It used to really bother me. I used to take it personally. I used to get hurt for them. I'd get angry if I poured into them. And I never believed no good deed goes unpunished. But that's probably one of the truest statements I've ever heard in my entire life. So I've done a lot of really good things for people I didn't have to do, and they still let me down and went out of their way to let me down. And I realized that everybody. Hey, I. I learned grace. Everybody goes through. They didn't want to let me down. I hedge my bets more. I'm really cautious, meaning, like, I'm not that far out anyway. You let me down. It really didn't hurt me. Takes me a long time to trust.
- [56:19]
B
Yeah.
- [56:20]
A
Long time to trust.
- [56:21]
B
You know, it's funny, in the. In the book Beyond Entrepreneurship, they were talking about, there's a chapter where they talk about people are either really trusting or really untrusting. And it's just kind of a choice that you make. And the guy's mentor was like, look, yeah, I give. I've been burned. But I just choose to see the best in people until they let Me down, down. And he goes, when people don't let me down. And I thought this was so interesting. And obviously that's why I asked you this question, because he says, you know, it's either a crisis of character or a crisis of incompetence.
- [56:48]
A
Yeah.
- [56:48]
B
And if it's incompetence, I have to ask myself, is this something that I can teach this person to do or do they have the aptitude to do it? Or they just, you know, whatever I need them to do just outgrown their seat? Or is this something that they just did this because they have bad character.
- [57:01]
A
Right.
- [57:02]
B
And that's kind of the hardest thing to judge people. So how good of a judge a character on you? Is it something you go through experience or how much of it's gut?
- [57:13]
A
I think a lot of it's gut. I mean, my experience, just because I. The experience. You're a different human being, your circumstances are different. I look at people's surroundings, like who they're with, relationship wise, who they spend time with. I try to gauge some of that before I get to too far in. But also that crisis of character may be situational. I have some really good people that did some really stupid shit and really bad situations. I have guys that did some really stupid shit, let people down because they were drinking too much, they're in a bad relationship, they were depressed. It doesn't mean that it's an excuse, but it was a situational character issue.
- [57:52]
B
Yeah.
- [57:53]
A
And it doesn't mean that's an interesting forever.
- [57:55]
B
That's an interesting take. That character can be seasonal 100%.
- [57:59]
A
But if, I mean, and also it's not my job to judge. You know, two of the greatest things I got, I got a lot is that I, I don't drink, so I'm sober, so everything. And I do have a really healthy fear of the Lord. And dude, that book tells me not, like, I can't judge nobody. Yeah. So the minute I start finding myself doing, I'm like, dude, they're a human being. Like you, bro, like, relax. Like, who are you? Like, you got to make decisions, stand up for your family, protect people. I get all that. But also at the end of the day, I've had some people that nobody's believed in them. And I think we have a lot of, you know, people that work with us that people have given up on. But I'll tell you what, dude, you take somebody that people have given up on and you believe in that guy, and all of a sudden he starts to have success and he's had some dysfunction in his life and he has a resilience that you talked about earlier. Dude, be careful. That was what I knew about the people we recruited, man. We had a lot of really good people. It didn't mean that my first ad was now hiring athletic or military experience required. It was my first life insurance ad I ran. People call me up and be like, hey, man, I'm in. I played ball at NC State. What's the job? I'm like, dude, you're going to be perfect. Come down tomorrow morning, we'll talk about it. We'd be a half an hour into it. They wouldn't even know what we do. They'd be fired up. Sometimes they'd get up and leave and be like, hey, what do we do? Again, they just want to be around me. And I liked them.
- [59:17]
B
Yeah, I love that. I love that. Hiring or core competency, not a skill set. I love that. Which is good. When you look for people like, like, again, I'm going to take that a little deeper. How do you know somebody's going to make. I mean, what's your hit rate on people? Because as much as I wish I could say mine was 100%, it never is. No, I know kind of what I say.
- [59:36]
A
Mine's 100%. But I. As an independent contractor, the one thing I will. The biggest thing I'm rabid about is accountability. I'm rabid about accountability. If I go, hey, man, tell me about why you're here. Well, I was working this other company and they suck, blah, blah, blah. Well, somebody made money there. I always go, well, somebody made money. Why did they make money? You didn't. And it's get quiet. I'm just like. And I'm waiting. And if you go, yeah, you know what, Sean? I could have. No, it just the place sucked or this happened or that happened, I'll nicely go, hey, let me ask something, John, if you don't mind. Do you ever take responsibility for anything or do you blame everybody? Always. I've got a really good asking questions people want to ask. And I don't ask them to be a prick. I ask them because I want the information.
- [60:13]
B
Yeah.
- [60:13]
A
And a lot of times, and if they're uncomfortable, I said, you know why I'm asking those questions Because I genuinely care. It'd be easy not to ask those questions and just move on and dismiss you and tell you get contracted and never talk to you ever again. But I want to know why you think that way. And I want you to get better. And I want you to get better because I care about you. I don't even barely know you, but people cared about me when I didn't care about myself. I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you. I'm just saying, like, at some point, dude, this is you, bro. Everywhere you go, you're there. So let's, let's talk about that now. A lot of times, people, self, you know, it's kind of like I was talking about with tenants. I have a lot of people that just are like, dude, I'm not gonna. Like, this guy's, like, serious about me being successful, and he's kind of a pain in the ass, and he's asked me a lot of questions, and I'm not, I'm not down people. Like, this is too much for me. I'm like, okay, yeah. I'm like, hey, good to meet you. Oh, man. If I'm, you know, people always ask me, if you hire 10 people, how many are successful? I, I, you know, listen, I think for me, I hired people based on what I thought they could become and who they knew. And I didn't pretend otherwise. I'm like, dude, I'm hiring you because of what I think you can become here, but also, you know, people. And I'm not gonna lie to you. A lot of the great guys and girls I have, I didn't hire them directly. Yeah, I hired somebody who hired somebody who hired them. The dude that hired me quit a month after gotten that, which is stupid. He shouldn't have. And the guy that hired him quit like a month later. Matter of fact, when I launched my. My company, this guy Jim who hired me, called me, was like, man, it's going pretty good, huh? I'm like, oh, dude, we're killing it. He's like, I never should have quit. I was like, dude, you're overriding me, you dumbass. Yeah, all you do is just stay around.
- [61:42]
B
Yeah, just keep, keep your business card.
- [61:45]
A
Just keep your business card, bro. I was doing phone on. I was doing the rest.
- [61:48]
B
Dude, just do that CE and keep that license alive. That's all you had to do. I know, dude, you mentioned earlier you had a BA in psychology, right? And so many of your answers today with how you deal with people and how you do things are so very well thought out in the way that you approach people's emotions first and touch them in a way to get them to perform. How much of that that is utilizing the education you got through that psychology degree, and how much of it is just you think is just having that touch with people.
- [62:16]
A
I think I had that touch with people because I want to. I think it's, I'm genuinely interested in people and why they are the way they are and what they're trying to accomplish and who they're trying to be. I'm also really transparent in who I am. Like, I, I, I don't pretend that I'm not up, but then again, we all are. And I think that's the struggle for people. I think once people realize this is a level playing field, just because that guy might know this and you don't because and she might know this, we're, we're all still just trying to get through day by day, man. Some days are others, you know, I think everybody deals with the same stuff. It's just different doses in different times. Right. I think. I know. Listen, college, honestly, for me was good as much as people like, I, I did learn a lot about sociological theory. I did. I learned a lot about DSM 4 and diagnoses, and I got a master's degree. So I did learn some stuff. So I'm not going to, you know, minimize that, but I can tell you that it was putting it to use. So I heard the same stuff my peers heard in school. Then I was like, cool, I'm going to go put it to use and see if it works. But I think a lot of it's experiential. I think the foundation was good for me. But then I took it to a different level. I was like, all right, dude, let me go figure these things out. And always be bold. I always tell myself, default to aggressive. Like, whatever's happened, just default to aggressive. Be intellectual about it, be intentional. But let's default to aggressive.
- [63:29]
B
All right, well, let's, let's. Last question, then. You've got one avenue, one skill set, one anything. One, One thing. One thing that you would advise people to perfect, to study, to get good at for success and overall life. What is that one thing?
- [63:44]
A
Man? That's a great question. I think your ability to explain and market yourself in 30 or 45 seconds, your ability to sell who you are, whether it's to a client, whether it's to a lender, whether it's to appear, whether it's to a recruit. A lot of people don't develop that communication style. Start with you. Why should I work with you? You. What is it about you? What do you bring to the table? What are your strengths, your weaknesses? So I'd perfect your communication as it pertains to you. As a business person, because that's all sales is.
- [64:16]
B
Yeah.
- [64:16]
A
Be able to communicate who you are. I come in here, you do your thing. You're very, very intentional about it. And I got to give you number two, Learn from people. Watch what they do. If I come in here and your sign out front says welcome to Sean Mike, and it feels. Makes me feel good. Why would I not do that? That it makes me feel good. So if it makes me feel good, I'm like, that made me feel good. Why? That's not like. But people just are so into themselves. I'm like, what can I learn from you? I come, I want to be in your show. I want to know you. That's great. I'm happy about that. But I'm also like, what can I pick up in the short period of time I'm here?
- [64:48]
B
Yeah.
- [64:48]
A
You know, so you got to keep your ears and your eyes open. But you've got. If you can't market or sell, you, you can't market or sell anything. If you can't sell you, who the hell wants to join you? Yeah.
- [64:59]
B
Yeah. Well, brother man, I. If you didn't get anything out of that, something's wrong with you. I'm just gna tell you real quick. If they want to find you, Sean, how they find you?
- [65:08]
A
Instagram's easy, man. My last name is M E A I K E Sean Mike S H A W N Everything's in my name website. We got the pick money, the podcast. Wrote a book called Punch me in the Face. I do stuff all over the country and I'm not hard to find, man. Go on to ig if you want to hit me up, send me a message and I'll get back to you. I, you know, I, I enjoy trying. I enjoy what I'm doing.
- [65:30]
B
I love that, man. I love that. Look, if you're out there and you're drifting along, I mean, this is a dude that. I mean, if you think about it, let's start in 2013. That is not a long time. That is 11 years in. In the fact that they've been able to achieve what they've done in that time, really, just by having a higher expectation of what's possible. All those competitors are trying to do 50 million. This dude goes sends out to set a billion dollar company and blows by everybody. There's no reason you can't do the same thing. We'll see you next week. What's up, everybody? Thanks for joining us for another episode of Escaping the Drift. Hope you got a bunch out of it. Or at least as much as I did out of it. Anyway, if you want to learn more about the show, you can always go over to Escaping the Drift dot com. You can join our mailing list. But do me a favor, if you wouldn't mind. Throw up that five star review. Give us a share. Do something, man. We're here for you. Hopefully you'll be here for us. But anyway, in the meantime, we will see you at the next episode.