He Sold His Roofing Business for $60M (Here’s What He Built Next) - Mike Feazel

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Escaping the Drift with John Gafford

Episode: He Sold His Roofing Business for $60M (Here’s What He Built Next) – Mike Feazel
Date: January 20, 2026
Guest: Mike Feazel (CEO of Roofmax)

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Episode Overview

This episode features Mike Feazel, the CEO of Roofmax, who previously built and sold one of America’s largest roof replacement companies. Host John Gafford interviews Mike about his journey from traditional roofing to founding a disruptive company that extends the lifespan of asphalt shingle roofs. The conversation covers entrepreneurial grit, product innovation, the intricacies of dealer/franchise business models, digital marketing shifts in the age of AI, and leadership in virtual organizations. The tone is candid and practical, with a strong emphasis on actionable insights for aspiring entrepreneurs.

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Guest Introduction & Background

[02:14–03:23]

• Upbringing: Mike was raised in a small Ohio farming community.
• Industry Origins: Entered the roofing business straight out of high school; founded a roofing company with his brother in 1988.
• Scale: Built the company to $20M in revenue (~$60M in today’s dollars) before selling in 2013.
• Transition: Sought to innovate by extending asphalt shingle roof life, leading to the birth of Roofmax; now lives in Puerto Rico, runs a virtual workforce in all 50 states.

Quote:
"I am a roofer. I borrowed my dad's ladder and put it on top of my car and started a roofing company." — Mike Feazel [07:09]

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Selling the First Business & Spotting a New Opportunity

[04:17–06:32]

• Mike and his brother sold their roofing company after 25 years, driven by industry shifts and their innovative ambitions.
• Teamed with Ohio State University, Battelle Labs, and others to research roof longevity.
• Discovered a shelved patent for a bio-based shingle treatment—saw potential where others had failed.
• Licensed the patent on a royalty basis and iteratively improved the product to what is now Roofmax.

Quote:
"They’d given up on it. So this was a lottery ticket for them." — Mike Feazel on the patent holders [08:14]

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Product Innovation: How Roofmax Works

[09:01–10:21]

• Roofmax’s product is a bio-oil that restores flexibility and “life” to aging asphalt shingles, similar to rejuvenating a brittle road with new oil.
• Backed by scientific testing at Ohio State, their treatment can make old shingles as flexible as new ones.

Quote:
"We passed the same flexibility testing required for a brand new roof. The only difference is one is dry and brittle and the other is flexible because it has oil." — Mike Feazel [09:55]

• Treatment can extend a roof’s life by 5–15 years, depending on timing and condition.

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Market Approach & Business Model Pivot

[11:11–14:06]

• Initially tried to partner with roofers, but they preferred full replacements over lower-margin rejuvenations.
• Pivoted to targeting business opportunity seekers and built a dealer (not franchise) model.
• Now have 380 dealerships across the US since 2019.

Key Insight:
"Most roofers are replacement contractors, not maintenance contractors…they want the $20,000 replacement, not the $5,000 rejuvenation." — Mike Feazel [12:48]

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Dealer Model vs. Franchise Model

[14:06–17:08, 28:32–29:01]

• Chose a dealership model (lower barrier to entry, more support-focused, aligned incentives, less regulatory friction).
• Dealers pay for product and equipment (~$70–$100K total investment) and are supported with marketing/training, but run their own operations.
• Model inspired by Renewal by Andersen’s successful structure; focus is on ongoing success, not upfront fees.

Quote:
"A lot of the franchise businesses are in the business of selling franchises…home services is not a very fair business model. Dealer model was the fairest trade off." — Mike Feazel [14:10]

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Go-to-Market Tactics

[13:05–14:06, 15:25–15:54]

• Utilized franchise aggregator sites, social media (Facebook, YouTube), and PPC advertising to attract dealer candidates.
• Created robust corporate marketing (TV, radio, direct mail, social) plus dealer support.
• Focused on business opportunity seekers initially; now attract more experienced operators.

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Marketing Challenges in the AI Era

[20:09–23:54, 32:06–35:27]

• Major investment ($20M) in TV/media advertising; Google AdWords increasingly expensive and less effective due to “zero-click” searches.
• AI-generated search summaries reduce the number of visitors to actual websites, hurting digital acquisition cost-effectiveness.
• Experimenting with new channels: SEO for generative AI, posting on Reddit, partnerships with retailers (e.g., Lowe’s).

Quotes:
"The zero click crisis is crushing commerce right now… 60% of people that go to Google don’t click on anything." — Mike Feazel [20:58]
"The marketing landscape is shifting so much…how much damage does it do before we settle into what a new market looks like, which drives the economy?" — Mike Feazel [36:01]

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Differentiation, Competition & Industry Impact

[21:25–22:42, 41:57–42:49]

• Roofmax dominates in both brand marketing and scale; competition is nascent or lacks effective products.
• Welcome healthy competition to expand consumer awareness of roof rejuvenation.
• Positioning the company (and industry) as the antidote to wasteful, expensive, and unnecessary roof replacements.

Quote:
"90% of roofs don’t need to go to the landfill—they can get five more years. 80% we can take out 10 years. I see this as about a $10 billion new niche industry." — Mike Feazel [41:57]

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Company Culture & Leadership in Remote Organizations

[22:42–25:19, 25:19–28:27]

• Operating virtually since inception; only manufacturing is brick-and-mortar.
• Management prioritizes transparency, weekly all-hands calls, annual in-person conventions, and EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System) for quarterly alignment.
• Acknowledges the challenge of scaling culture after 50+ employees and the importance of personal touch, even with large teams.

Quote:
"You’re never going to beat the hallway…we had to build all these tools and assets out. It was me, my brother and my sister at the kitchen table when we started." — Mike Feazel [27:33]

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On Customer Experience & Review Management

[36:36–38:14]

• Bad reviews trigger personal outreach from Mike’s brother; customer issues are addressed directly, and dealers are held accountable.
• Maintaining the highest rated/reviewed status is a core value and competitive advantage.

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Roofmax: The Service & Its Value Proposition

[09:21–10:56, 38:18–41:18]

• Roofmax provides a holistic “tune-up”: shingle rejuvenation plus repair/replacement of damaged components.
• Service takes about 2 hours, is non-intrusive, and significantly less costly than replacement.
• Particularly valuable as insurers scale back replacement payouts, and consumers seek affordability.

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Future Outlook & Exit Considerations

[32:06–33:56, 38:34–39:58, 42:06–45:11]

• Facing digital marketing headwinds due to AI and platform changes—pivoting to alternative sales/marketing channels.
• Interest from Private Equity (PE), but Mike prefers a strategic partner with long-term vision (not a short-term “flip”) for the sake of dealers and customers.
• Believes blue-collar/home improvement industries are more resilient to AI disruption and will see growth amidst economic uncertainty.

Quote:
"For me, it’s not just what we get for the company...it’s what is the outcome for all the people that believed in my brother and I to build their lives around it." — Mike Feazel [39:58]

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Broader Reflections: AI, Economy, and Human Nature

[42:06–45:11]

• Mike and John discuss how AI will impact job markets, the prospect of universal basic income, and the risks of societal disenfranchisement.
• Suggest housing, home improvement, and blue-collar trades remain promising even as white-collar jobs face automation threats.
• Caution about social/economic disruption, but faith in entrepreneurial adaptability.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Most people quit too soon. We just did the grind and didn’t stop. Tenacity, persistence." — Mike Feazel [11:58]
• "We only make money when you buy product…A lot of franchises are in the business of selling franchises." — Mike Feazel [14:10]
• "Blue collar is not going away. Of all the things that can be replaced by things, blue collar is not going to be one of them." — John Gafford [45:39]

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Important Timestamps

• [02:14] – Mike’s roofing background and origin story.
• [04:30] – Exiting his first company; motivation for innovation.
• [06:32] – Discovery and licensing of the shelved patent.
• [09:21] – Science behind Roofmax’s rejuvenation process.
• [11:11] – How insurance interacts with roof rejuvenation.
• [12:48] – Why traditional roofers resisted the product.
• [13:24] – Birth and evolution of the dealer model.
• [20:09] – Shift in digital marketing effectiveness due to AI.
• [32:06] – Current challenges and business pivots.
• [36:36] – Customer service and reputation management.
• [41:57] – Market size opportunity and environmental impact.
• [42:06] – Broader economic and AI implications.
• [44:27] – Blue collar future-proofing and societal trends.

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Resources & Contact

• Website: roofmax.com (with two X’s)
• For Dealerships: roofmaxdealers.com
• Email: [e-mail]

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Summary Takeaways

This episode is a treasure trove for entrepreneurs and business builders interested in:

• Disrupting legacy industries with overlooked innovations
• Leveraging licensing and improving others’ failed inventions
• The pros/cons and execution of franchise vs. dealer models
• Scaling a remote business and maintaining culture
• Navigating digital marketing in the AI era
• Prioritizing customer experience as a competitive moat
• The future of blue-collar businesses in an automated age

Mike Feazel’s journey is a testament to the power of perseverance, business model ingenuity, and a customer-first approach—delivered with humility, candor, and actionable insight.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

And now, escaping the Drift, the show designed to get you from where you are to where you want to be. I'm John Gafford and I have a knack for getting extraordinary achievers to drop their secrets and to help you on a path to greatness. So stop drifting along, escape the drift, and it's time to start right now. Back again, back again for another episode of the podcast that gets you from where you are to where you want to be. And today, beaming live to the studio. I got a guy. I love having innovators on the show. People that are doing something different or new or disrupting an industry in a way that hasn't been done before. And this is a gentleman that was introduced to me and I couldn't wait to get him on here and kind of tell his story because this is literally a centuries old profession that hasn't had a lot of change in it in a long time and they've kind of come up with something that is disrupting that industry. He has built a massive company nationwide before he got into this, but now is the CEO of a company called Roofmax, which is changing the roofing business forever, saving people a ton of money. And this is a really cool product and I wanted to get on to hear his story. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the program. Program. This is Mike Fiesel. Mike, how are you?

[C]

Hey, doing great. Thanks for having me on.

[B]

Good. Yeah. Welcome, welcome. Glad to have you. Let me switch over to this camera. There we go. Now I can kind of see it. So first off, man, tell me about you. Let's get into who you are as a human First.

[C]

Sure, sure. So, born and raised in a small farming community just outside of Columbus, Ohio. Got in the roofing business right out of high school. And then my brother and I started our own company back in 88. So almost 40 years in the industry and seen the good, the bad, and the ugly within the roofing industry. And about 13 years ago, sold our roof replacement company. We built one of the largest roof replacement companies in the country and went down the path of trying to figure out how do we get more life out of asphalt shingle roofs, which is 85% of all steep slope, you know, homes, churches, schools, apartments, condos.

[B]

So are you still in Columbus now?

[C]

I actually live in Puerto Rico, but we are.

[B]

Weather's better, much better than Ohio, especially.

[C]

This time of year. And I like the ocean. But we're a virtual company. We're the largest probably home improvement company in the world. The only brick and mortar we have is our manufacturing facility, and we have 300. Our employees are across the country and actually some overseas. And then our dealers, of course, are in all 50 states.

[B]

Now, when you were doing traditional roofing, how big did that company. How big did you scale that business to?

[C]

So we scaled it back. You know, we were at our largest. We were $20 million, which would be about $60 million in revenue in today's dollars from the time we sold it to currents. About a $60 million company.

[B]

Well, because the reason I asked if you were still in Columbus is one of my good friends, I just occurred to you when you said that just had a massive exit to private equity in the roofing business, and they live in Columbus.

[C]

So I was like, oh, and what is his name?

[B]

His name's Alex Gerhardt is his name.

[C]

I don't know. Alex. Wow, that's interesting. So he's probably on the. On the. On the insurance side, but, yeah, private equity is all over the place in the roofing side of things now. Yeah.

[B]

Anything. I think that's the hedge against AI is anything that, you know, AI is not going to come roof a house, and it's not going to come. Put an air conditioner in, and it's not going to come plumb your pipes.

[C]

That's where private equities is cool again.

[B]

Yeah, it's moving well. It's where the jobs are going to be, and it's what, you know, what you can keep. So when you exited that company, was that something you were looking for? Did somebody just come knocking on your door with a check that you couldn't say no to?

[C]

We were. We Were looking at. Somebody came knocking on the door. But my brother and I were getting close. We'd been in it for 25 years. We. There was a lot of changes in the roofing industry, of course, over 25 years, and just decided we wanted to go down this path. So we felt if we completely got out of that side, the roof replacement side of the business, we would have a better opportunity here, which was figuring out how do we get more lives out of asphalt shingles. So we exited back in 13. Partnered with the soybean association, Ohio State University, Battelle Labs, which is the largest research and development lab in the world, based out of Columbus, Ohio, and went to work.

[B]

And so you guys developed this product. This was a problem. You took to the lab and said, well, how can we figure this out?

[C]

So I found the old patent that had sat on the shelf for 17 years, had tried to bend a couple companies, tried to take it to market. Didn't have any success with it. But I think it took a roofer to understand the challenges in the industry and how to bring it to market. And that's what we did. And then we created a Generation 2 product through Battelle Labs. You know, increase the. The product. And then had a lot of testing done with Ohio State University. We had it tested through the same labs that test roofing shingles before they can get an ASTM stamp, right. Before it can be sold into the market. So we had all of that testing done and then went to market back in 20. 2017 is when we founded Roofmax. Really went hard into the market in late 18.

[B]

Okay, well, that. What you just said. You glossed over it. But I found really interesting what you just said, which was I found an old patent, and I just figured they didn't know how to take it to market. Walk me through. Walk me through that entire process, because that's something. If somebody's listening to this right now. Right. And you have an expertise in some niche business, sure. You might be able to just start doing patent searches around your business. I just. I would love to hear this story. I find this fascinating.

[C]

So we sold feasible roofing and immediately started a company called Roof Revivers. So as the name implies, supplies. We were trying to figure out, how do we get more life out of a roof. So in the midst of that business, I'm researching, researching, researching, talking to coating manufacturers. Different, different. Different solutions that I thought could be a good fit. And just came across this on, like a 17th page of a search. And the technology sounded promising. The marketing was Horrendous. But I thought maybe there's something here. Track them down, got some product, it did what they said it would do, or at least short term it did, you know, and just kind of went from there. But once we, once my brother and I got the product, and I'm not a, you know, I am a technician, I started on the roof. I borrowed my dad's ladder and put it on top my car and start a roofing company. So I am a roofer, so. And my brother as well. And so when we saw this product, we're like, man, this can really change the roofing industry. If it doesn't stain the home, if it doesn't peel the paint off a car, if it doesn't kill the landscape, you know, cancer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. And, and it is a bio based product, so it's very safe, didn't cause any damages. And so we really knew we had something. And once we realized we had that product, we ended up selling roof revivers after just a few short years and started roofmax.

[B]

Well, tell me, I mean, did you buy the patent? Did you buy the rights to these guys? Did you license it? Are you paying a royalty?

[C]

We did a licensing fee on the formulation.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah. There were years left in the patent.

[B]

Were these guys just surprised that you called? I mean, do they think this was a dead product or were they still trying to like push it out of their garage?

[C]

They'd given up on it.

[B]

They completely given up. So this was like a lottery ticket for them.

[C]

This was a lottery ticket for them.

[B]

Yes. Did you do a, was it a one time licensing fee or was it based on your sales?

[C]

It was based on sales. So they made a lot of money. That's up. So that, that is over now. But they made a lot of money. A lot more than they ever thought they would.

[B]

Yeah, but that, that also got you going because that formula worked.

[C]

It did. It was, yeah, it was a fair trade.

[B]

So what did you think? So what was the reasoning for developing something different? It just the evolution of the product or did you feel like you needed something else?

[C]

We wanted to evolve the product. We wanted it to do something a little bit more than what it originally did. We wanted to remove the staining from shingles, the, the black algae that you get in 80% of the U.S.

[B]

And.

[C]

And we wanted to, to get a little bit more soy into. Into the roof, a little bit more of the oil into the roof. So. And we're always playing with the formulation, trying to make it better. That that will never Stop.

[B]

So I look, I'm clueless when it comes to what this does on, on a shingle roof. Like what, what does this actually do?

[C]

So, so real simple, right? Shingles are made of asphalt and it's the petrochemical oil within the shingle that makes it flexible and waterproof. And as that oil dries out, just like you get a pothole in the road, it's only because the oil dries out on the road you start to get hairline cracks. Eventually a pothole, they come in and pass the pothole and replace the road. And so all we're doing is putting petrol, we're replacing the dried out petrochemical oil with an all natural bio oil. And we take, you know, the studies from Ohio State university, we've taken 17 year old shingles that were removed from a home because they had failed, sending treated and untreated samples to the testing labs and we passed the same flexibility testing required for a brand new roof. The only difference between a new roof and an old roof is one is dry and brittle the road and the other is, is flexible because it has oil. So we're just, all we're doing is replacing the dried out petrochemical oils with a bio oil, bringing that roof back to a fairly like new condition.

[B]

So at what point in what point in like the roof's lifespan do you got to do this?

[C]

You know, we can do it on roofs that they're all the way up to the end of their perceived life. 90% of roofs that we approach, that we get on where the customers had multiple quotes for replacement, nine out of 10 roofs were able to take it out another five years. 80% of those roofs we can take out another 10 years. Two treatments every five years we apply the treatment again and probably 60% of the roofs we could take out three treatments or double the life of the roof and take it out 15 years.

[B]

How does I know that Florida just passed a bunch of weird insurance laws because of the hurricanes? How does, I mean, are you guys, can you play in that space or is that we do this count to the insurance companies as a replacement or how do they, how do they look at it?

[C]

So they're accepting not so much roof max or. Now there's a whole industry that has grown up around what we've done. There's competitors which we see as healthy. The insurance company will never support a product. They just want to say that hey, you've got five years of remaining life. So let's say you think you need a new roof. The insurance Company sends you a cancellation letter, we come out, we treat the roof, and inspector comes out, inspects the roof, says, this roof has five years of serviceable life. You send that to the insurance company and the insurance company will keep the insurance policy intact without replacement.

[B]

Okay, let's go back a little bit. Right. So once you got the formula and you had this and you figured it would work, you said that the other company failed because they didn't know how to take it to market. So what did they do that failed, and what did you do that worked?

[C]

I'm going to say that they quit too soon. Like most people, we just went in and did the grind and didn't stop. You know, tenacity, persistence. Same with any company. And I think I understood how to take it to market better than they did. They were trying to take it to roofing companies, and as a roofer, so did I. But I very quickly pivoted and realized the roofers were not our partner. 90% of roofers are replacement contractors, not maintenance contractors. And so quickly we went after business opportunity seekers because they saw it as a great opportunity.

[B]

Yeah, because I would think this obviously is a much cheaper option than replacing a whole roof. So going after roofers, you're like, hey, here's this solution. They're like, that's. Why would I do that? Because it's just going to kill my margin.

[C]

Right. I want the $20,000 replacement, not the $5,000 rejuvenation. 100%.

[B]

Yeah. Why would I do that? So I'm guessing your strategy is consumer direct.

[C]

I'm guessing it is, yep.

[B]

So what channels did you use to get the word out on that?

[C]

We went after like franchise gator, all the franchise aggregators that are lead aggregators. And then we create a lot of our own marketing on Facebook and YouTube and you know, pay per click ads, people looking for a business opportunity and just went that route and really worked well.

[B]

So you're selling. So you're selling more franchises than you are worried about, actually as a company going direct to consumer.

[C]

Yeah. And we are a dealership model which is similar to a franchise. We control the brand. All of the vehicles are wrapped the same. We build out vans for the. Excuse me, for the. For the dealers. Then we support them in taking the product to market in their local market. We have marketing programs, tv, radio, direct mail, social media. And that's on corporate side. They also do a lot of the marketing themselves. Talking to real estate investors, real estate agencies, home inspectors, things of that nature.

[B]

Is a dealership model, is that model much cheaper to get into than a franchise model because I know that the.

[C]

Franchise model is incredibly difficult from a corporate side. The franchise model is a very difficult model. It's a lot easier to manage a dealership model. I also felt as I looked at the franchise models, franchising is great for pizza and hamburgers, but when you have to go build the business yourself, meaning that franchisee or that dealer. We only make money when you buy product. And if we're not supporting you, you're not buying product and I'm not making money. It was the fairest trade off. A lot of the franchise businesses are in the business of selling franchises and they make $100,000. And then the dealer, the franchisee fails. If they win, they make their 7%. They got their 100 grand up front. Let's just say if they fail, they take the territory back and they resell the territory and get another 100 grand. And I didn't. And I saw a lot of the franchise models and home services is not a very fair business model. And there's just a lot of hoops you have to jump through to stay in that space.

[B]

So the dealer model, you guys went that route. How did you market to people that wanted to be part of this?

[C]

Through the franchise, through all of the franchise lead aggregators. Right. Franchise gator. There's all kinds of websites that are aggregating. You can go there and look at 100 different franchises that are available. Or dealer models. Or dealer models. So it's kind of the same thing for them. We're just looking for business opportunity seekers. We also did it through Facebook, marketing, social media as a whole. Just really, what, what are you looking.

[B]

For in a dealer? In somebody that comes on as a.

[C]

Dealer in the early days. A pulse and somebody who believed in what we did.

[B]

Fair. Hey, that's fair.

[C]

I mean, right? You believed in us. All right, we'll take a chance. Today. It is more of somebody who has some, you know, business skills, obviously. Plenty of capital to come in and market it, sales and marketing skills. So it's evolved quite a bit over the years.

[B]

How many dealerships do you have now?

[C]

380.

[B]

Wow. In how many years?

[C]

Like, oh, we, we hard launched. Just call it 19. Since 2019.

[B]

Okay, so in five years you got 380.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What's it cost to get into a dealership? From the, from the dealership point of.

[C]

View, you're under $100,000. I mean, you've got $20,000 in product. We require that you buy a. Tote with the tote, we give you a territory and then you have to invest in the equipment. So let's just say you go buy a full wrap vehicle built out, brand new, you know, van wrap. We work with a company, Messer Van Solutions. They'll deliver it to your door ready to go down to the caulking gun and the, you know, the hammer. And that's probably in the $70,000 range, I think.

[B]

So you set them up with the equipment and then they've got to start the marketing side of it. But obviously you're coaching them through that. But hopefully you're dealing with people that are a little more innovative and understand how to run marketing into their territories. How big is the territory?

[C]

Territory is 100,000 population because it's such a small purchase on products. So we start very small. But we have dealers now that have 30 and 40 territories. You know, we have dealers that have bought up entire metro markets like Tampa or Detroit.

[B]

Now, I know that. Well, I was going to say I know that like in roofing, it's a heavy d, you know, door to door business. Heavy with door to door.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Is that part of what you guys do or.

[C]

No, the roofing business on the storm side, the insurance side was heavy door to door. The retail industry in roofing is primarily marketing and not as much door to door. The insurance industry is getting squashed right now. So the insurance companies are shutting down the insurance side of it. Unless it's really a hail storm, a big hailstorm or a hurricane. But a lot of the door to door guys in the insurance side of roofing, they were going out and knocking on doors. You're missing a shingle. Hey, I can get you a free roof. And that part of the business is being shut down as we speak over the last two years. That's kind of done.

[B]

Well, I know that. I remember a different friend of mine at a roofing company, their whole business model was to look for, you know, to work with real estate people and find properties that were escrow and then just say, look, if the sellers will, you know, if you'll pay the seller's deductible, we'll get you a brand new roof before you close. They're selling it anyway. It's not going to affect your insurance. Who cares? So, you know, I can definitely see why they would probably want to close that loophole.

[C]

When I started in the industry, it was 3% of roofs were replaced by insurance due to hail and hurricanes and it got up to 33% one in three roofs were replaced by the insurance. They hemorrhaged billions of dollars and finally shut that loophole. Over the last few years. They won't get the genie back in the bottle 100% but probably down to 10%. So now you've got a 23% Delta that just has evaporated. So now all these roofers are trying to slide over into the retail space. The roofing industry is down 35% this year compared to last year.

[B]

Wow. Oh, just because that's gone, because the.

[C]

Insurance, because of that, because of marketing, because of the economy is a little soft. But it's primarily the insurance side, see.

[B]

Because like, because, because like I'm in, well, I'm in Vegas. So we don't have asphalt roofs here. Everything is, is, is concrete, tile. That's what all the roofs are. So, you know, for us it's, it's a little different. But in the, you know, when I, like you said, mentioned Tampa earlier when I, I used to live there and yeah, every ro. That is that concrete, you know, shingle. So is it really just. I mean, I would, I, I mean I would got to believe that AdWords is going to be your number one. It's going to be your number one method of, of marketing this because I mean, it's pretty easy to target. I need a new roof. You know what I mean? But I'm sure that those clicks are very expensive.

[C]

Those clicks are expensive. We do a lot of AdWords. We've done about $20 million of TV this year. So just national local TV, including AdWords. You know, the Google Mafia gets you and you drive a lot of brand awareness. That brand comes over to the Internet and then people, ad agencies, adwords agencies start to see that there's millions of or hundreds of thousands of searches for a brand. So they start, and it starts to drive up the click. So literally on your lead cost, it was 25 to 35% the cost of a lead was AdWords because of what I call the Google Mafia.

[B]

Well, and it's getting worse, man, because now Google searches down. Well, Google search is down 30% because it's all gone to ChatGPT 60%.

[C]

The zero click crisis is crushing commerce right now because 60% of people that go to Google don't click on anything. They get their information from the overview, which is the world's worst landing page. Yeah, and people on ChatGPT. But, but my avatar, my customer is 50 plus mostly not on ChatGPT. You know, they're, they're, they're still going to Google, they're still, they're still looking.

[B]

At the Yellow Pages at this point. Some of your customers are what they're doing. So you met, you mentioned competition coming into the market, right? So what changes did you guys make in your. I mean, you were first to market with this at scale, obviously. So what changes did you make to your business when competition came in? What, what, what knobs did you turn? What levers did you press?

[C]

Really nothing. There haven't been any real competitors that have come in the market yet. There's a lot of people doing it, you know, whether it be trying to do a competing type of a product, a lot of coatings, elastomeric, clear elastomeric coatings, things they're calling rejuvenation. But it's really not. So, you know, it's a very fragmented industry, just like the roofing industry. Real competition will come. And I even think the competition that's out there, as long as it's a good product and they're treating the customers fair, I think it benefits us. Because now the consumer starts to go, oh, there is this. There is a way to extend the life of a roof. But, you know, our company has done 10 times more marketing than all of the other companies combined. And I'm not knocking any of those businesses. They're just small and getting started and figuring it out. And, you know, kudos to them.

[B]

So you mentioned that your whole company is run remote, right? You don't have any brick and mortars, except for. Except for your actual stuff. How do you keep culture in your company when everybody's not in the same roof?

[C]

Yeah, that's tough. Easy. Up to 50 people. Once you go over 50 people, that starts to change. But, you know, my management team have done a great job coo. They've just done a great job with it. You know, we've got a solid culture, but, boy, things start to change in a business. Once you get to about 70 people, at least my experience over the years, and you don't start to know everybody's name, culture starts to shift. So, you know, for me, you know, we have every. Every week we have a Monday call. Right before I came on here, I was on our weekly Monday call. And I just try to stay out front and keep the troops excited with the dealers, with the employees. I don't treat anybody. They're all team members. To me, they're all our partner is how I see it. Trying to be transparent, you know, when you screw up, own it. And just trying to keep everybody on the same Page and rowing in the same direction. And that's tough. And it's much tougher when you get bigger. It's a lot easier when we had 50 dealers and 10 employees.

[B]

Yeah. My scariest moment of the year happened on Saturday night, which is we have our annual Christmas party, and we got 585 people that work for me. And I wish that I could say that I knew all of them on a first name basis, but I don't. There's just so many of them. So I literally spend, like, the three weeks before that party, we have a. We have an internal system on the back end where everybody has their face. And I would go on every day for, like, the three weeks before and just try to study everybody's face a little bit. Just, you know, it drives me. I made a great. A huge faux pas like, eight years ago at this party where some guy walked in, and he walked in with a girl that I knew. She didn't work for us, but she was there, and she walked in, and it was late in the party. Late, late, late. So I assumed that she had been downstairs at, like, the casino, was talking to one of their people that we knew that was there. And they said, oh, it's late. Come up to this party is why I assume they were there. And so I'm talking to her date, and I'm like, hey, so, you know, Lara dragged you to this Christmas party is so random. Blah, blah, blah. You know, I'm glad you guys came up. You know, does she always drag you to weird Christmas parties? And he goes, I've worked for you for three years. And I was like, oh. And so now. Now my wife has programmed me. The only thing I'm allowed to say at that party is, it's good see you. That's it. Because that could mean it's the first time I'm ever seeing you. Or I see you every other day. That's all I'm allowed to say.

[C]

It's very awkward, right? You want to respect your people. I mean, they're the ones that do it. Your company exists because of them. Yeah, it's awkward, you know, at our conference, this last year's conference, because we didn't do it at the first one. I'm like, I want name tags. I want the first name huge because I can't see without my glasses. And I want it on both sides of, you know, the lanyard. That way when I walk up, I can see as I'm walking up. John, good to see you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And what market they're from because, you know, for the dealers. So. Yeah, but I think a lot of people realize, you know, it gets to a certain size, they just understand that that's just not how it works.

[B]

But, but I also think, Pete, it's, it's so important to people. And I, and I love that I study because it paid off in like four times this party because there were some people that I saw that I've never, I did. I've never met, but just from my little study sheet, I knew who they were. Right. And I was like, oh, hey Nicole, nice to see you. And she's like, I haven't met you yet. I'm like, I know. She's like, you know who I am? I'm like, yes, I do. And like that, that is stupid as it seems, because, you know, who am I? Yes, but who am I in the greater scope of the world? Right. I'm not, I'm not inflating my own self importance, but in that moment to that person, it was a huge deal. It was a huge deal. It was a huge deal for them. I always wonder that question, you know. Cause like Simon Sinek said in his book, you know, the magic is always in the hallways and how to keep people connected in a way where you still get that magic when it's remote is incredibly difficult to do. And I'm always so in awe when I see people that does that. That does that well. So you have a convention once a year. You have a convention once a year in person.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

And then you do week. You said you do weekly calls or.

[C]

Weekly calls with the dealers. And then of course, management and every layer within the company is having different meetings. I'm not meeting with, with all of our team, our corporate team every week. You know, we do quarterly updates and we operate under eos. I'm sure you're familiar with the.

[B]

Love it.

[C]

Yeah. Yep, we do Eos. So every quarter we kind of do an update from the, from the past quarter, but you're never going to beat the hallway. But our second year in business was Covid. So we, we really hard launched late 18, so call it 19. We had 12 months.

[B]

Boom.

[C]

Covid came in and thank God we were virtual. And I'll be Honest, I'm almost 60. I'll never go back to an office. I have no desire. I can go see the dealers, I can go to different locations and I've got great relationships with the dealers, but I don't have great relationships with all 380 of them. Our dealers. Early on, my brother And I roof Max University, which people go through now, was FaceTime. Right. Call me when you get to a roof and I'll walk you through it. Yeah, right. We had to build all these tools out, all these assets out. It was me, my brother and my sister. Me and my brother. When we started quickly, my sister started with us and it was the three of us on my kitchen table. So, you know, it just. There was. And when we launched, it went quick. You know, we really grew quick.

[B]

Was it always the dealer model? Did you come out of the box dealer model, or were you guys just trying to make it go yourselves?

[C]

Yeah, a friend of mine helped design the dealer model for renewal by Andersen, if you're familiar with them. Renewal by Andersen Windows. And they did it under a dealer model. And when we talked about doing this, he's like, don't go the franchise route. He explained to me his reasons he had helped renewal by Anderson. He said, most of these companies are now going a dealer model. I researched it and we just made the decision. Let's go the dealer model.

[B]

Now. It's funny you mentioned roofmax University on that. So obviously you guys have a full training platform that's built out now. Did you. What did you. If you mind me asking, what would you build that out on?

[C]

You know, it's an lms. I'm not even sure, to be honest. I'm pretty removed from a lot of that stuff. And after the first few years, we started bringing on, you know, the team. We've got a big tech team and, you know, and a pretty solid, very solid management structure in place, so. But I'm not sure what our LMS system is. I think we've been through a few of them.

[B]

Okay, well, let's talk about you being removed. You moved to Puerto Rico. I'm guessing that had some tax advantage when you moved there. Was that the only reason or.

[C]

No. My wife and I, I was a late bloomer. I got married at 53 and my wife was a school teacher. So we were going to go to Florida in the winters. As a roofer, I always would go to Mexico in the winter and. And to get out of Ohio. And you can't rope as much in the winter. So we were going to go to Florida for the winter. And I heard about Puerto Rico. I've lived in Mexico twice. I love Latin culture. And I heard about the opportunities in Puerto Rico. We went down and visited and fell in love. We were going to be there seven months a year, five months in Ohio. And within the first 12 months we're like, why in the hell are we going back to Ohio other than to go see family and visit? Been there full time for almost seven years. I'll die on island. We, we love it there.

[B]

What's the. Are there a lot of expats there? I mean, what's, what's the.

[C]

I mean, yeah, probably 8,000 in my community. We live in a community called Palmas del Mar. I think there are 800. I'm sorry, 1200 families, 800 Puerto Rican families, 400 US families. But, you know, Puerto Rico is different than Mexico. In Mexico, and I've have wonderful friends from Mexico, but I'm still a gringo Puerto Rico. I'm a second cousin. There's more Puerto Ricans that live in the US Than there are on the island. My tax attorney sister lives in Dublin, Ohio, which is a suburb in Columbus. So there's a very close connection. My buddy played tennis for Indiana University, so there's such a tight connection. You're not really an outsider. You're more of a second cousin. So culturally there's a great fit. And I love the Latin culture, so it's an amazing place. It's got its challenges, but far outweighs the good. Far outweighs the bad.

[B]

Have you been there for a hurricane yet?

[C]

That would be the bad. I haven't hit that yet, so, no. Yeah, I have Category one, but that doesn't count.

[B]

Yeah, well, I'm Floridian by birth and I lived in Florida for much of my early life. And it's just so funny. People don't understand about hurricanes. Like. Like the world just kind of stops when it happens. And it's just a very. It's a very odd thing. Yeah. Because. Well, are you doing a lot of what you do in Puerto Rico? Is that, Is that a place where you can do it down there?

[C]

No, no. Asphalt shingles.

[B]

Yeah. No, no, that's tile down there.

[C]

Yeah, tile. Yeah, tile and flat.

[B]

All concrete tile and flat roof. So where do you see the company in like 5 years? Where do you see it going?

[C]

Just continue to do what we're doing. Right now we're going through a bit of a pivot because of the challenges with marketing. It's been very difficult. 60% zero click. Right. So that's driving up cost per lead. Everybody I'm talking to and you know, within the large companies, even medium sized companies are getting hit by it. Regional and national Companies have an AI overview. When you search Roofmax or Roofmax reviews, it says reviews are mixed. We have 19,000 reviews 4.9 stars. They're not mixed.

[B]

Yeah, no.

[C]

Right. But Google's trying to be fair and balanced, and then they have the pros and the cons. So, like, it's on a scale of 1 to 10, it would be about a 3 if you were designing a landing page, maybe a 2. And so people stop at that and they don't make their way to the landing page. So our CPL's gone up. So cost per lead has gone up considerably and it's putting a lot of pressure on the company. So. But we're making pivots. We're early stage testing with Lowe's. You know, we'll see how that goes. I'm very optimistic that that could be a great thing. A lot of our dealers are pivoting to door to door to more guerrilla marketing tactics. You know, we spent $20 million in TV marketing this year. I don't know, we'll probably spend half of that next year because CPL is too high in a lot of markets. We've got markets that were, that were 300 CPLs, and now they're 800 CPLs. The break point is about 4 to 500, depending on the deal or their close ratio, what they charge, their level of skill. But that's happening to everybody. I mean, everybody's getting hammered. I don't believe just in home improvements. I believe it's affecting the broader economy.

[B]

Oh, it's, it's every. I mean, you know, I can tell you this. You know, we're in the real estate space here. It's what we do. And my, my lead cost used to run $13, $14. Now, granted, it's real estate, so the closing percentage is very low. It's like two and a half percent on Internet leads. But now, you know, my lead cost is up to $23, $24 kills your cash. Yeah, it's, it's dreadful. Now, luckily for us, you know, housing is, is keeps going up in Vegas. So the more expensive housing gets, the more we can make. So it definitely offsets the cost. But, yeah, it's not good. I mean, we've shifted so heavily into going from pay per click into aeo, which is feeding Chat gbt. What it needs just to return us is the only good result because a lot of people think Chat GPT is just, you know, it's super smart and knows everything. The results is returning are just what it'. Fed. And so we've gotten pretty good at feeding it what we want, putting out.

[C]

The content, becoming a real content machine, not SEO machine, a content machine. Yeah, Google will read the algorithm, will read what's put on YouTube, what's putting on, you know, what's streaming now on these podcasts. So yeah, everybody's retraining the, the algorithm.

[B]

Well, what we found especially is, is our become one of our best friends is Reddit for chat gbt. Getting as much information as we can about us, you know, in keyword dense search stuff onto Reddit is really that, that's been a huge game changer for us.

[C]

25% of Reddit, Google AI and Chat, but primarily Google was about 25% of all of their data was coming from Reddit. They just took it down to 6% because of the challenges of nobody's verified. If you put a bad Google review on my webs, on my Google GMB page, my Google listing, I can go in and say no, he wasn't a client. Google will run through their algorithm and kick it out. Reddit you can't. So Reddit is valuable and we're doing the same thing. But you know, I think that ultimately they're going to figure this out. But does it take a year? Does it take. The marketing landscape is shifting so much and how much damage does it do before we settle into what a new market, what marketing looks like, which is what drives the economy. You know, the US economy is bigger than Europe's economy because we're better marketers. It's that simple. That's it.

[B]

No, I don't disagree with that. Let me back up a little bit because you mentioned Google reviews being very important to your business. Do you guys have a strategy for dealing with one star reviews other than just challenging them? I mean, is there a customer reach out plan? Is there if they're legitimate customers, how do you handle it?

[C]

100%. My brother is still involved at the level where if there's a review that's a bad review, our team reaches out, we talk to the customer, we talk to the dealer, make sure it gets fixed. And if it doesn't get fixed, the dealer knows they have to deal with my brother. And you don't have to deal with my brother because he's always going to say why the hell aren't you taking care of the customer? Because that's always the answer 99% of the time.

[B]

Yeah, a lot of people don't do that. And like for example, I have all of our Google, my business accounts for all of our businesses are hooked directly to me because if I get a bad review, I want to know instantaneously that Happened. So I can personally get on the phone and try to get it off because I, you know, sometimes you can't win, sometimes you can't get them off. People are just stubborn with what they do. But you know, I'm able to probably get them down. I'm going to go probably 70% of the time I can get them off if there's a problem. Because a lot of times people just want to be heard and they don't know who to like. They don't know how to get through to somebody that can hear them. So they just do that. And then when they go to the company calls. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Those people are logical. So. But you know, we, that we are the number one rated roofing company in the country with the most reviews and the best reviews. Average roofer is going to be 4, 3, 4, 4. If they're taking care of their customers for a roof replacement. Now in their defense, it's a hell of a lot easier to go in and treat a roof and it's not as, it's not as, you know, you're not out there for three days replacing the roof. It's not a messy job. But yeah, taking care of the customers, everything. And it's more important today than ever because of the transparency of the Internet. But we've always treated business that way. Just take care of the customer.

[B]

How long does it take to do this to somebody's house? Is it a one day process?

[C]

Yeah, two hours. In and out in two hours.

[B]

So not a big intrusive deal, which is crazy. All right, so where do you see again, I know we talked about like five years. You've already exited one company to pe. Is this something that you guys would exit at some point? The future, obviously you love what you're doing now.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

With the kind of market share you have the heads of. They're already knocking. I know they are.

[C]

They're already knocking. I don't think I'm going to go to pe. I don't, you know, we've, we've gone back and forth with that. The partners, I really want a strategic partner. Somebody is going to take care of the dealers. This sees a longer term commitment. PE is always spinning up to the next up the pyramid. Right. And there's nothing wrong with that. But you know, PE's, there's, there's a really good side and there's a really dark side to P.E. as you know and you know, and again it's, everybody's looking for something different. For me, it's not just what we get for the company, there's going to be plenty here. I think what's more important is what, what is the outcome for our, for all the people that believed in my brother and I and this company to build their lives around it. So that's going to be more important.

[B]

Yeah. And from the outside looking in, I mean, dude, you're living in Puerto Rico doing zooms. I mean, what are you, are you going to retire, live in Puerto Rico and just not do zooms? I mean, how, how much different would your life even be if you.

[C]

I'm at the stage in my life where I don't spend nearly the money I did when I was younger. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I mean, just what, what would you even do different? Right. You just, I mean, I just, you're already, you're, you're doing it. You're living the life. You're doing exactly as you should. Yeah. If there, if there was anything else we haven't touched on about you or the company that you would want people to know, what would it be?

[C]

So let me explain. What is roof rejuvenation versus restoration? There's some confusing confusion in the market and I think it's important for people. So I talked about the product and that is taking that old shingle that's dried up and bringing it back to life to near like new condition. Right. The coating, the protective coating, we can't get that back on. But before we're doing that, we're also restoring the roof by repairing or replacing damaged or missing shingles. We're repairing flashings. Right. There's other work we're doing cleaning the roof if it needs it, if the customer wants it cleaned. So we're really restoring the roof. Part of restoring the roof is rejuvenating those shingles with our treatment. But we're doing a lot more work. Basically, let's call it a tune up. Some tune ups are minor, some tune ups are major. And then we treat the roof. So it's a really a holistic approach that we take. And because there's a lot of information and this information on Reddit and other format, you know, places where the roofing contractors want to come back and say, well, they're not taking care of the roof. Right. They're. It's not. Roofmax is not fixing other things. Well, the product itself is not fixing a nail pop or missing caulking. But the, but the restoration side of it, the tune up side of it does, does repair that. And I think it's important that people.

[B]

Understand that yeah, the human that's actually up there is, is fixing that stuff.

[C]

Yeah, right. We're doing all the other things. And of course, part of that is the rejuvenation portion of the treatment and what it does to the shingles. But we're bringing that roof back to life. 90% of roofs don't need to go to the landfill. They can get five more years. And in today's economy, that helps a lot of people. 80% will take out 10 years. 70, 60 to 70%. We can take out 15 years. And I see this as about a $10 billion new niche industry over the next decade. As more players come in and we educate the market. It's, you know, the roofing industry is huge. It's nearly $100 billion industry.

[B]

Well, especially now that I would think with insurance slamming the door on that, you're going to need people looking for a cost effective solution because State Farm ain't writing the check anymore.

[C]

Nope, they're not. And I don't know where you stand on the economy. I think that we're coming into some headwinds with AI. I think it's going to have its good side, it's going to have its bad side. I think we're coming into the early stages of layoffs. We're seeing that this year was the biggest in the last 20 years and. And October was the biggest October ever in layoffs. And a lot of that is due to AI. So I'm not afraid of AI. I think it's going to be beneficial over time, but I think we're going to look at a decade of some turmoil in the markets. There's just no other way around it. But I think there's opportunity in there for the business owners and people that try to always see the opportunity and everything. There's massive opportunity in all of that.

[B]

Yeah, I just literally right before you today in studio, I had a gentleman named Sean Callagy. He's a billionaire.

[C]

I know Sean.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. There you go. Sean was just on the show today and we were talking about. Hey. Because his new AI company is pretty amazing and they're trying to win the race. And I'd asked him, what are your thoughts on where are we headed with people becoming unemployed and because of this. And he of course mentioned the universal basic income, which I think is. Is probably the route that it's headed to something which brings up the next concern, which is, okay, now you're going to have a whole swath of the population which is unmotivated and unsatisfied. And that normally for societies tends to be a bad thing.

[C]

Well, yeah, I mean you can kind of see what's happening with the youth around the world. Look at, you know, if you want to see, and I want to get into the politics of it, but if you just see what the direction the world's going, all you have to do is look over to Europe to see where maybe we're at in another five or ten years. I think that AI is going to speed that up. You know, when 30 year olds don't have the opportunity or there's a lot less opportunity for them to buy a home, have a family. Right. Things change. They're the ones that raise hell, as I would when I was 30. So we are in interesting times, that's for sure.

[B]

Yeah. I mean you look at every great civilization in history was toppled because a large part percentage of the population became disenfranchised. And so let's hope that we can figure this out in a way that allows people to still have hopes and dreams and still have things that they can chase.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Do you watch the all in podcast?

[B]

I do.

[C]

It's a great podcast. Right. And I love that there's four different, you know, four different perspectives there. But I, you know, you can, you can see we're going to figure this out. Right. Humanity always figures it out. But this is in a very compressed time frame and governments are reactive, they're not proactive at all. I don't think that they can be. But there's definitely our works cut out for us. But I would say the blue collar is a better place to be. Housing is going to be a great place to be. I think the white collar jobs are definitely the entry level are already getting hit pretty heavy, but I think it's going to work its way up the food chain. I think a COO and a CEO and they're always going to have a place at the table, but it's going to be that middle management that's going to get cooked.

[B]

Yeah, no, I, I, I'm not going to disagree with that at all. Not going to disagree. All right, well, if they want to find you, how do they find you?

[C]

Roofmax.com 2x's M A X X roofmax.com My email is M Feazel F E A Z E L roofmax.com and yeah, we're easy to get a hold of. Somebody's interested in a dealership. Roofmaxdealers.com they're interested in our business opportunity and we're always looking for great partners.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, look, if you're out there and you're looking for an opportunity, I mean, you know, blue collar is not going away. I mean, of all the things that, that, you know, can be replaced, buy things, blue collar is not going to be one of them. So this is definitely something that I would take a look at if I was you. All right, well, thanks so much for joining us. I appreciate you, Mike. Enjoy Puerto Rico today. I'm sure it's a beautiful day, right?

[C]

Yeah, it is. It is great to meet you. Hey, Merry Christmas. Happy new year.

[B]

Take care. All right, everybody. All right, everybody. We'll see you next time. What's up, everybody? Thanks for joining us for another episode of Escaping the Drift. Hope you got a bunch out of it or at least as much as I did out of it. Anyway, if you want to learn more about the show, you can always go over to escaping the drift.com you can join our mailing list. But do me a favor, if you wouldn't mind, throw up that five star review. Give us a share. Do something, man. We're here for. For you. Hopefully you'll be here for us. But anyway, in the meantime, we will see you at the next episode.