Mastering Content Creation and Entrepreneurship: Insights with Scott D. Clary

Summary

Podcast Summary: Escaping the Drift with John Gafford – Episode: Mastering Content Creation and Entrepreneurship: Insights with Scott D. Clary

Host: John Gafford
Guest: Scott D. Clary
Release Date: December 3, 2024
Duration: Approximately 78 minutes

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1. Introduction and Early Greetings [00:00 – 01:10]

The episode begins with a brief, somewhat humorous exchange between John Gafford and Scott Clary, setting a relaxed and candid tone for the conversation ahead. They quickly pivot from intros to the main content, dismissing initial automated advertisements and focusing on the substantive discussion.

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2. Origin Stories and Early Careers [11:00 – 14:55]

John Gafford shares his entrepreneurial journey, emphasizing his shift from a stable government job in Canada to the unpredictable world of tech startups. He recounts his experiences with company acquisitions, such as his role in a broadcast software startup acquired by Grass Valley, which ignited his interest in entrepreneurship and content creation.

Notable Quote:
"Entrepreneurship is people's path to freedom. It's finding a way to build something from scratch, something that you own."
[12:45] – John Gafford

Scott Clary echoes similar sentiments, highlighting the declining reliability of traditional 9-to-5 jobs and pensions. He underscores the necessity of entrepreneurship as a means to secure personal and financial freedom in a rapidly changing economic landscape.

Notable Quote:
"Our generation is realizing very quickly that W2s are not going to be the way that we're going to really secure our freedom."
[12:51] – John Gafford

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3. Defining Entrepreneurship [17:00 – 21:25]

The conversation delves into what truly defines entrepreneurship. John distinguishes between genuine entrepreneurship and mere speculation or zero-sum games like certain aspects of the crypto market.

Notable Quote:
"Entrepreneurship is solving pain points while simultaneously giving value to the world. If you're just extracting, you're not an entrepreneur."
[20:19] – John Gafford

Scott adds that true entrepreneurs focus on creating value rather than just extracting it, emphasizing the importance of building something sustainable rather than engaging in transient, speculative ventures.

Notable Quote:
"If you're not creating something, if you're playing a zero-sum game, you're not entrepreneurship. That's speculating."
[19:42] – Scott Clary

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4. Building a Personal Brand through Podcasting [21:25 – 27:13]

John discusses the strategic purpose behind starting his podcast, "Escaping the Drift." Initially focused on sales and marketing topics relevant to his role as a Chief Revenue Officer (CRO) in a broadcast software company, the podcast evolved post-acquisition to encompass broader themes like mindset, mental health, and entrepreneurship.

Notable Quote:
"I started the podcast because I knew there are people struggling to figure out what to do with their life, searching for purpose. I wanted to provide insights from successful entrepreneurs to guide them."
[21:38] – John Gafford

Scott reflects on the organic beginnings of podcasting, reminiscing about casual conversations that later transformed into more structured and value-driven content. They both agree that authentic, passion-driven content is key to long-term sustainability.

Notable Quote:
"Creators should find startups whose product aligns with their audience and leverage their channel as a take-to-market strategy."
[23:37] – John Gafford

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5. Content Creation Strategies [27:13 – 46:49]

The duo explores effective content creation strategies, emphasizing the importance of alignment between content and business objectives. John advocates for a methodical approach: starting with content that serves immediate business needs and gradually expanding based on personal interests and audience feedback.

Notable Quote:
"Have a testing ground for your content. Use platforms like Twitter to test ideas and see what resonates before developing long-form content."
[73:50] – John Gafford

Scott shares practical tips for content longevity, such as producing multiple episodes in advance to maintain consistency and avoid early burnout. They stress the significance of understanding one's audience and tailoring content to meet their specific needs and interests.

Notable Quote:
"If you're going to do a podcast, don't tell anyone until you have seven episodes in the can. Chances of getting to the eighth one are very slim otherwise."
[27:23] – Scott Clary

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6. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Anxiety [49:03 – 58:20]

John openly discusses his ongoing battle with imposter syndrome, especially when interacting with high-profile guests or speaking publicly. He shares his coping mechanisms, such as continuous exposure and preparation, to mitigate anxiety and build confidence over time.

Notable Quote:
"I have imposter syndrome all the time. The way I've dealt with it is by putting myself into those situations repeatedly until it becomes less stressful."
[52:50] – John Gafford

Scott relates with personal anecdotes about dealing with performance anxiety and emphasizes the importance of resilience and proactive strategies to manage stress.

Notable Quote:
"The first time I stepped on stage, I was so nervous, but over time, it becomes second nature through repetition."
[54:05] – Scott Clary

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7. Monetization and Mailing Lists [58:20 – 73:52]

The discussion shifts to monetization strategies for podcasts and the critical role of building and maintaining a robust mailing list. John highlights the importance of owning one’s audience through email subscriptions, ensuring long-term engagement and protection against platform volatility.

Notable Quote:
"The newsletter is crucial because Instagram or YouTube can be shut down overnight. Owning your mailing list ensures you have a direct line to your audience."
[72:01] – John Gafford

Scott reinforces this by advocating for strategic content alignment with business goals and utilizing the podcast to build relationships that can translate into business opportunities.

Notable Quote:
"Use your podcast to build rapport with potential clients. Interview your existing clients to promote their businesses and foster mutually beneficial relationships."
[31:26] – Scott Clary

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8. Final Insights and Strategies [73:52 – 78:25]

Wrapping up, John and Scott offer actionable advice for aspiring content creators and entrepreneurs:

• Emulate Successful Models: Reverse engineer strategies from established creators and adapt them to fit personal styles and audiences.

• Focus on Authenticity: Integrate personal experiences and genuine insights to differentiate content from others and build deeper connections with the audience.

• Continuous Improvement: Strive for mastery in content creation, ensuring that each piece is both entertaining and valuable, regardless of the niche.

Notable Quote:
"Include your whole life or significant portions of it in your content to humanize yourself and connect more deeply with your audience."
[65:08] – John Gafford

Scott emphasizes the importance of consistency, testing content ideas, and leveraging successful tactics from other platforms to enhance content effectiveness.

Notable Quote:
"Find leading indicators for success, like retention and engagement, rather than just focusing on vanity metrics like follower counts."
[41:16] – John Gafford

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Conclusion

In this insightful episode, John Gafford and Scott D. Clary explore the multifaceted aspects of content creation and entrepreneurship. They provide valuable strategies for building a personal brand through podcasting, emphasize the importance of authenticity and audience alignment, and offer practical advice on overcoming common challenges like imposter syndrome. Additionally, they shed light on effective monetization techniques and the critical role of maintaining a dedicated mailing list. Listeners are left with a comprehensive roadmap to transform their drift into a purposeful and successful entrepreneurial journey.

For more insights and resources discussed in this episode, visit EscapingtheDrift.com.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

1. "Entrepreneurship is people's path to freedom. It's finding a way to build something from scratch, something that you own."

   • John Gafford [12:45]

2. "Our generation is realizing very quickly that W2s are not going to be the way that we're going to really secure our freedom."

   • John Gafford [12:51]

3. "Entrepreneurship is solving pain points while simultaneously giving value to the world. If you're just extracting, you're not an entrepreneur."

   • John Gafford [20:19]

4. "Creators should find startups whose product aligns with their audience and leverage their channel as a take-to-market strategy."

   • John Gafford [23:37]

5. "If you're going to do a podcast, don't tell anyone until you have seven episodes in the can. Chances of getting to the eighth one are very slim otherwise."

   • Scott Clary [27:23]

6. "I have imposter syndrome all the time. The way I've dealt with it is by putting myself into those situations repeatedly until it becomes less stressful."

   • John Gafford [52:50]

7. "The newsletter is crucial because Instagram or YouTube can be shut down overnight. Owning your mailing list ensures you have a direct line to your audience."

   • John Gafford [72:01]

8. "Include your whole life or significant portions of it in your content to humanize yourself and connect more deeply with your audience."

   • John Gafford [65:08]

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Connect with John Gafford:

• Website: EscapingtheDrift.com
• Social Media: Follow John on his various platforms to stay updated with his latest episodes, insights, and business ventures.

Connect with Scott D. Clary:

• Podcast Website: successstorypodcast.com
• Social Media: Engage with Scott on his social channels to access more of his entrepreneurial tips and strategies.

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Thank you for reading this summary. To dive deeper into these discussions, be sure to listen to the full episode of "Escaping the Drift."

Transcript

[John Gafford]

It's been so long.

[Scott Clary]

How have you been? Hello.

[John Gafford]

I'm doing well, Dave. Why are you talking that way? Please say one for a compliment or two for a question.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, this is weird. I think I'm gonna go. Talking with an automated phone tree can feel pretty ridiculous. That's why when you call Pacific Source Health Plans, you'll get a real person to answer all your important questions. Pacific Source Health Plans. This is a real person. How can I help you? Human service, not automated phone trees. Find a [e-mail] Nobody was talking about him five days ago. Yeah, and now everybody's talking about him, which I think is funny. I think it's, you know, and Ben Shapiro's, and they're saying the election was proof. We don't want commercials like that. That might be a little bit of a stretch, but, dude, everybody's talking about this, which is wild. And now, Escaping the Drift, the show designed to get you from where you are to where you want to be. I'm John Gafford, and I have a knack for getting extraordinary achievers to drop their secrets to help you on a path to greatness. So stop drifting along. Escape the Drift. And it's time to start right now. Back again. Back again for another episode.

[John Gafford]

The Quiet Storm.

[Scott Clary]

No, it's not the Quiet Storm. It's the podcast that gets you from where you are to where you want to be. It's Escaping the Drift. And today, people in the studio, you know, again, awesome. When you have a big event here in town, one of the advantages of living in Vegas is I can get these big speakers, man, that go to these big events, and they come in here, so. So drop knowledge on you for like an hour. And in studio today, we got a cat. Kind of a big deal. Kind of a big deal. I'll say. He is the host of the Success Factory podcast, has a massive newsletter, massive online following, has done incredible things in the world of business, from having large exits to continue to be an investor of things. And this is a dude that definitely has some tips that's going to get you from where you are to where you want to be. Ladies and gents, welcome to the studio. This is Scott Clary.

[John Gafford]

What's going on? How's it going, John?

[Scott Clary]

Dude, how are you, man?

[John Gafford]

Yeah, Vegas is a fun city to live in because then you get everybody coming through for events. That's smart.

[Scott Clary]

Easy city to live in.

[John Gafford]

That's why I moved to Miami.

[Scott Clary]

Is it? Yeah. See, I was going to move to Tacoma. Tacoma, Washington. I'm kidding. I would never.

[John Gafford]

I would say you're not going to get.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, that's a joke. I wasn't really going to do that, but. Oh, so you're in town this weekend speaking at Todd Alts event.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

Risk on 360. By the time you hear this, it will have gone, but you can hope, hopefully check it out next year. And what, what capacity are you speaking for, Todd? Like, what are you talking about?

[John Gafford]

So we're talking about. So I'm doing a panel with my better half, Gina. Sean Kelly's on that panel. He's a mutual friend too. We're speaking about content influencer marketing, building a personal brand, sort of the playbook that we've deployed because I have a good following. I have a good podcast, good newsletter. Like you mentioned, my better half, G, She. She built a company called My Therapist says. So, different demo than me, but they have about 8.2 million on their main account.

[Scott Clary]

Whoa.

[John Gafford]

They've been doing this for 11 years and they create memes. So she's going to talk about sort of her structure and framework for creating culturally relevant viral content. And then Sean built a massive podcast too.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, it's funny, Sean. We talked about this before we came on Sean's podcast, if you haven't checked it out. Digital social hour. Great. And Sean's just a machine, like the dude. Yeah. I talked to him the other night and he did 23 podcasts in one day.

[John Gafford]

I don't understand it.

[Scott Clary]

I was just like, I mean, look, I mean, it's hard enough for me to be interested in anything for like an hour. And so it's like, I just don't. I don't get how he does it.

[John Gafford]

I wouldn't recommend. If you're. If you're getting into the game of creating content, I wouldn't look at Sean as. This is what I have to do to start. Yeah, because you're going to. First of all, for content creators, what Sean does is already fucking crazy.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

Like, nobody does it at that level with that many shows. And I think that if you're just getting started, I mean, that's not a good. That's not a good avatar to look up to. I think that you want to just start with something that's going to, you know, not burn you out in the first month. So, you know, props to Sean for doing that. I love his work ethic and his hustle, but that's not reality for most creators. Most creators should figure out a process that they can do repeatedly for the next 10 years. And keep in mind too, like, Sean's main thing is his podcast. My main thing is my podcast too. And I do three episodes a week.

[Scott Clary]

You do three drops a week? Are they all guest drops?

[John Gafford]

No, sometimes they are, but I do for sure two guest drops and then sometimes I'll do a solo. And I think this is also a good lesson in terms of like content creation. Like, I always test new things. So yeah, sure, guest drops are great and interviews are a lot of fun and I love them. Probably the same reason you love them. Yeah, but I'll also test. I'll also test sort of like 10 to 15 minute, pick a topic that I know is going to resonate and I have a process for testing which topics resonate with my audience and then do like a 10 to 15 minute or even like a 30 minute episode solo episode on that. I've also done solo episodes on founder stories, so I mean, I've done episodes on like Bernard Arnault from LVMH and like that.

[Scott Clary]

I saw one of your founder stories. I saw. You know, now that I think about it, I saw, I saw. You did.

[John Gafford]

But I keep testing them and then I'm looking at listeners and I'm looking at how many people like that versus an interview. So yeah, you just keep testing.

[Scott Clary]

Dude, I love that. I love that founder series you did. I saw one of these. Now that you say that, I saw one because like, to me, the greatest media thing that's been created in the last 20 years was the series that the History Channel did. The Men that Build America.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, Fucking great. If you haven't seen that, dude, stop watching this right now and go watch that because that is like I draw. It's a jaw dropping America. Like how you.

[John Gafford]

Because you go into the history of it. And also I found that, listen, when, when you do like a soul. When you do an interview, there's an art to an interview and there's an art to pulling out lessons and wisdom from somebody. But when you can do like an insane amount of research ahead of time on, pick a big historical figure and really like go into the weeds of what they did, there's going to be a level of granularity there that you just can't get in a, in an hour long interview with somebody. Yeah, you know, not Sam Walton or Bernard Arnold.

[Scott Clary]

No, because, you know, it's funny because our drops here, we do a guest a week. So I'll do a. The guest comes out on Tuesday and on Thursday we do the weekly drop. Is what it's called, it's like a sub podcast of this, which is exactly that. It's me. It's me 10 or 15 minutes. And normally what it winds up being is through the course of doing this interview today, you and I are going to hit on some sort of a subject at some point.

[John Gafford]

We'll figure it out eventually.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, that I'm going to think eventually we'll figure out what the fuck we're talking about, but we're going to hit subject that I think deserves a little bit more delving into. Or something will happen in the media cycle this week, like I gotta tell you. And we'll talk about this because I love this. And this will probably be irrelevant because the media cycle is so fast by the time it comes up, but I'll probably use these clips ahead of time. I'm definitely talking about the Jaguar thing this week. But not for the reason you think. Not for the reason you think. I think it's brilliant. Everybody's hating on it. And because. Okay, because you're going to appreciate this because you love to go granular with like founders. Right? If you just as soon as I saw it, it reminded me of something instantly. How old are you?

[John Gafford]

34.

[Scott Clary]

34. You're not going to remember this.

[John Gafford]

Tell me what it is.

[Scott Clary]

In 1985, Coca Cola had a genius idea. They were doing taste tests all around the United States. Coca Cola was. And they were losing taste test to Pepsi. So they said, okay. And Pepsi was advertising this like crazy that like all these blind taste tests. People were choosing Pepsi, they were choosing Pepsi, they were choosing Pepsi, but they.

[John Gafford]

Were being put on by Coca Cola.

[Scott Clary]

No, no, no, no, no. Pepsi was doing this. Okay, so, so, so Coca Cola says, here's what we're doing. We're coming out with New Coke. We're changing our formulation for the first time in a hundred years or whatever it was. We're going to add more. Well, probably. Guess they took the cocaine out at some point, but that was before 1985. Well, the 80s were a wild time. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. But since they took out. So they took the cocaine out at some point earlier than that. But they were going to add more sugar to it. Right? So they had more sugar. And then they came out with New Coke and everybody hated it. They fucking hated it. But everybody was talking about it. And then after about six months of this disaster of New Coke, they formulated and came back out with Coke. Classic.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

So now you could get the old stuff again. And, dude, the sales went through the roof. So think about it. Before two days ago, but three days ago, whenever it was in this disaster ad came out, who was talking about Jaguar?

[John Gafford]

No one.

[Scott Clary]

No one who's talking about him now?

[John Gafford]

Everyone.

[Scott Clary]

Everyone. So now you have this opportunity for Jaguar to ride this disaster of. Because, you know, they say, doesn't matter, talking good or talking bad is when they stop talking, you got a problem. And they had stopped talking about Jaguar.

[John Gafford]

But they got to find a way to capitalize on it because or else what's going to happen is you're going to get a lot of buzz and people aren't going to convert.

[Scott Clary]

But I think you're going to start seeing now. Now, if I'm Jaguar, what I do is I take this disaster of a campaign and this new thing and I start bringing back the classic stuff. I think within, within a year, you're going to start to see, let's go back to the xk. Let's bring out a new XK to celebrate our heritage.

[John Gafford]

Not that would be smart.

[Scott Clary]

It'd be super smart. And when it happens. And when it happens, I don't know, this is happening. Maybe they're just idiots.

[John Gafford]

You know what you got to do, by the way?

[Scott Clary]

What's that?

[John Gafford]

When you do a podcast and you talk about, like, the future, you have to be like, super. You have to, you have to just have these, like, super prolific ideas and thoughts and you say them with 100% certainty and then you can clip it in a year from now. Yeah, but then all the shit that you say that doesn't work, you just.

[Scott Clary]

You just, you just delete. Okay, so here we are.

[John Gafford]

Gary Vee does this all the time.

[Scott Clary]

For sure, 100% of the time.

[John Gafford]

I respect Gary Vee a lot, but he says a lot of shit and then he'll clip the stuff that went right.

[Scott Clary]

It's like those gambling, those gambling hotlines back in the day where you would pay like $100 and you would call and half the callers would get this game and half the callers would get the other way. 50% of time, you're always right and just keep working.

[John Gafford]

You look like a genius, dude.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, that was. Dude, that was the hustle. So. Yeah. But anyway, so that's what's going to happen is you're going to see Jaguar use this negative press. They're going to revert back to the classic Jaguar everything and, and they're going to be sort of relevant again. That's what I would do. Because they had to do something.

[John Gafford]

Right now everyone hates them. And Porsche. Porsche is. They just put out an ad not calling out Jaguar, but saying, like, if we were. I think it was, I can't do a lipa. It was one big celebrity. But basically you're saying, like, if I was going to direct a Porsche commercial, this is what I would do. And it's. That's. The commercial is her just basically reinforcing all the Porsche values. Like, that's what they're doing in the commercial and basically taking like a subtle stab at, like, don't fuck with a good thing.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

Don't fuck with the classic. If they do that. What you're talking about to be smart, though.

[Scott Clary]

Nobody was talking about him five days ago.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

And now everybody's talking about him, which I think is funny. I think it's, you know, when Ben Shapiro's. And they're saying the election was proof. We don't want commercials like that. That might be a little bit of a stretch. But, dude, everybody's talking about this, which is wild. I mean, it'll be. It'll be interesting to see how long it dominates the news cycle, because, I mean, nothing dominates the news cycle very long.

[John Gafford]

It'll be. It'll be forgotten soon. Yeah, I think. But I mean, it's more impressions and it's more eyeballs than I've gotten again, like you mentioned, in the past 10 years.

[Scott Clary]

Well, let's back up, dude, because obviously, you know, I like to. I like to get the origin story on everybody that's highly successful that comes through here because I like to know, you know, it's a science experimen. Is it nature? Is it nurture? What. What happened to you? So tell me about early you, dude. Like, give me the early you.

[John Gafford]

The early me grew up in a family of, like, sort of comfort and predictability. My dad worked for the government in Canada. He worked for csis, so he was doing counterterrorism and intelligence, which is a very cool job. But I mean, it was still a 9 to 5 government job. So entrepreneurship, working with, I mean, tech startup, that wasn't really where I came from, but I think that. So your podcast is called Escaping the Drift. I think that you're obviously very entrepreneurial, but there's a lot of people that were, you know, parents and grandparents that found a lot of comfort in a 9 to 5 W2. And I think that. I think that our generation is realizing very quickly, and as did I, that W2s are not going to be the way that we're going to really secure our freedom and we're not going to be able to retire and we're not going to be able to live like the life that we really want to live. And this sounds a little bit like a talk track that you hear quite a bit. But if you actually think about what our parents and grandparents went through and the pensions that they were receiving and the comfort and the security that they had from their jobs, I don't think many people can get that kind of comfort and security anymore. Doesn't exist.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah. You don't see big pensions being flown around.

[John Gafford]

No. Exactly.

[Scott Clary]

Outside of government employees. And how knows how long that's going.

[John Gafford]

To last now, now, early age, I was like, how much money do I have to have in a bucket? And now my views of retirement have changed. But early, early stage was like, how much money do I have to have in a bucket if I want to retire at 65? Because I'm not going to be getting a pension from wherever I'm working. And it was a lot of money. You start to do the math and you're like, well, if I'm only making X amount of dollars working in 95 in this, in this company, that's really not going to get that bucket of money that I really want to live a good life until I die at 100, 120, God willing. Right. So it was really, it was really a very logical decision to move away from traditional nine to five as quickly as possible. I started working in tech. One of the companies I was working at was acquired. That sort of opened my eyes to acquisition and private equity because it was a good exit. The guy made a lot of money, the founder made a lot of money. And then it was a light bulb moment. I just need to, I need to find a way to get a piece of a company or to build something that can eventually be acquired. And that was sort of the rabbit hole that I went down. And then since then I've worked in a variety of different startup. One was acquired five years ago. It was a broadcast software startup as acquired by Grass Valley. I've done the fractional CRO stuff. I've worked full time as co founder CRO. So I've just stuck around the startup universe and that sort of led me into what my content is right now, which is speaking to entrepreneurs, talking to entrepreneurs. Anything that, anything that is about entrepreneurship. Building from zero. That stuff really interests me because I think that is, I think that is people's path to freedom. It's finding a way to build something from Scratch build something that you own. And I think that that's something that everybody should at least if it's not something they jump into headfirst, which I don't think is smart, they should at least start to understand that to future proof themselves from being laid off from not having a pension, from understanding that companies don't really give a shit about you at the end of the day. So I, I sort of just champion entrepreneurship as much as possible.

[Scott Clary]

No, I agree. I think my views of the W2 employee and all of that stuff are very similar though, to my views on college. Right. I don't give this blanket, like this is a bad thing. I don't give it a blank like people say, oh, you know, all the college is stupid guys, college is a scam, all that stuff. I don't subscribe to that because I don't either because I genuinely believe that, number one, college is a scam. If you go get a liberal arts degree in indigenous people studies on the impact it has on theater, okay, yeah, you're an idiot. You got scammed. You're going to be a barista. I get that. You get a school for a finance or accounting degree, you're learning the language of business, there's something to that. You go get a law degree, there's something to that. You become a doctor or something to. If you know your party's extension, press or say 1. To leave a message in our company mailbox, press or say two. Spoiler alert. It will be full representative. Would you speak to your mother in that tone? Speak to a real human being. You shouldn't need to shout into the void to get your health insurance questions answered. Pacific Source Health Plans. This is a real person. How can I help you? Human. Human service, not automated phone trees.

[John Gafford]

Pacific Source Health plans.

[Scott Clary]

That it depends on what you get there. But it more than that, I think it's a great place to teach you how to grow. To teach you how to grow up. It's where you learn to be an adult.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

If anything else, it's where you really learn to be an adult. And I think it's so funny because I was talking the other day about this where I went to an event in Orange county and it was a bunch of pro athletes and a bunch of money managers and private office people. And Eric Red was up there, who was a professional basketball player and he was with Meta World Peace and they were doing a panel and he said, how many of you guys are getting ready to retire from whatever league you're in or you Think you're going to be out of your league soon because there was a bunch of athletes there and a bunch of hands went up and he's like, the first thing you need to get is a fucking shrink. He's like, because from the day that somebody first told you you were special at whatever you do, sports wise, you stop growing as a person. So if that was 13, you're 13 right now with millions of dollars, which is why you're all going to be broke. And I think we're seeing that a little bit in the new economy, the modern time, the crypto slot machine that is running all the time.

[John Gafford]

But none of that shit is entrepreneurship in my mind. I mean, there's bullshit entrepreneurship.

[Scott Clary]

Gambling.

[John Gafford]

Yeah, it's gambling. But then there's like real like, okay, so you went to, you went to college, you went to university, you got your degree.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

Smart. Now you've grown up a little bit and now you go into the. Because keep in mind, we can't assume that everybody just jumps into building their own thing or jumps into startup land right away because it's not what the majority of people do. The majority of people go out after college and get a job.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

What I'm saying is, great. Now figure out how to future proof yourself so that not only does your earning power increase like exponentially, if you find a way to productize your skill set or you build something that is of value to the world and you take that to market at some point in your career, I'm saying that eventually the thing that you're doing right now, there will be a ceiling on it or you'll be made redundant.

[Scott Clary]

Yes.

[John Gafford]

And that's all I'm saying. So I don't think that.

[Scott Clary]

Well, I think, I think the point that I'm trying to make is if you're going into a job, looking at it to take care of you for the rest of your life, probably not. But you need to look at that as a continuation of your education.

[John Gafford]

Correct.

[Scott Clary]

What is this company doing? Right. That I can learn, that I can apply to something else.

[John Gafford]

And I fast forwarded through my entire sort of origin story, but there was like about how many years, 10ish years of like working for companies.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

Before then starting to figure out how to do my own thing and like even like the podcast I create now and the newsletter and how I monetize that. That's a business in and of itself. Right. That is a full business that I've started from scratch. So I think that, I think that the goal is and there's a strategy behind why I started the podcast. As opposed to starting just a business, I wanted to build a media asset that I could launch businesses against in the future. Once you have the audience. But yes, I think. And there's other versions of entrepreneurship, you could be working a 9 to 5 and then find a way to take the skill set that you've Learned in your 9 to 5 and then do it freelance or side hustle. So you have your nine to five and then you, you know, you take on clients five to nine and all of a sudden you have so many clients that you can now turn yourself into an agency or some sort of service provider doing that thing that you're actually doing in your 9 to 5. As a full time entrepreneur, I agree with you.

[Scott Clary]

I think the difference is people all get lumped into entrepreneur. Saying you're an entrepreneur is the new I'm a rock star.

[John Gafford]

Which is.

[Scott Clary]

It is.

[John Gafford]

Yes.

[Scott Clary]

Right. But these guys that are running the, you know, the shit coin, the meme coin, casinos.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

My differential, my line is, if you're not creating something, if you're playing a zero sum game where the only way for you to win is somebody else to lose, which all of that is, you can't, you can't rake hard crypto when somebody loses. That's not entrepreneurship, that's speculating.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

That's pure. You're gambling at that point. You're not building anything.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

Which I get. And I think that, yeah, having those jobs to learn how to build something is effective. But I also think that people make the mistake of thinking that. I love when people are like, oh, I want an entrepreneurship. I want to, I want my own company so I can make my own hours.

[John Gafford]

Yeah. Yeah. Good luck.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Gafford]

I've never worked more. Yeah, I've never worked more than when you build your own thing.

[Scott Clary]

You won't.

[John Gafford]

So I think that you should define what entrepreneurship is and what it isn't. It's not. It's not just extracting value from the world. It's giving as much value as possible. I think that a great version of entrepreneurship is to take the thing that you know better than anything anyone else. Maybe it's because you've worked in a company for 10, 15, 20 years, you find a pain point that you've discovered through working in that industry for the past 15 or 20 years, and then you build a product or service around that that solves that pain point. Statistically, that's going to be the highest chance of you succeeding. As a quote Unquote entrepreneur. But ultimately, the definition of an entrepreneurship, of an entrepreneur has to be you are finding ways to solve pain points while simultaneously giving value to the world. If you're not giving value, if you're just extracting, like you said, zero sum game, you're not, first of all, there's going to be a ceiling because you cannot just extract from the world unlimited value. You have to do, you do have to give value. And secondly, it's going to have a very short life, whatever thing you're building. I, I don't deal with a lot of crypto entrepreneurs. I deal with people that are trying to build, like real companies that are solving.

[Scott Clary]

Well, let's move into the brand building. Let's talk about that because obviously it's so important. And when you started your, when you started your podcast. Yeah, let's start. Was that, was that the first thing you really started, when you started your own brand? Was that, was that the hinge point? Was that the first thing?

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

All right. So when you first started it, what were your goals for it? What did you think it was going to entail?

[John Gafford]

So it's funny because when I started it, I didn't really know where it was going to go. When I started it, I was still building a company and I was CRO at a company that was, it was a broadcast software company. It was acquired, and my day to day was building out a sales team, building out a marketing team, helping take this product to market. So a lot of the first conversations I had were just following my passion of building out sales and marketing organizations within companies. And I would speak to CROs and CMOs and talk about sales and marketing strategy. So the first version of the podcast was really just me having conversations with people that were teaching me things about what I was doing in my day to day. And it was my, at that point in my life, it was my interest. And then as it grows and expands, then I all. After the acquisition, I realized that there's a lot of other things that I'm interested in. So I started to have a lot of other people on the podcast. Now I start talking about raising money, mindset, mental health, physical health, all the things that I think are now important to me. So the journey of the podcast and the topics that I've brought onto the podcast really emulate where I'm at in my life and what I'm curious about. And I think that having some curiosity, some almost selfish curiosity and the topics you cover is key to creating content long term. Because if you are Creating content that you are not interested in. I feel like eventually you will burn out. Now you asked me what was the purpose of it. So after the acquisition I realized that, okay, I started to build a little bit of momentum with this audience. I have a couple listeners now, so what am I going to do with it? And I could have launched a product or service immediately against that audience. I was fortunate that I didn't really have to worry too much about money at that point. And in my mind I thought let's, you know, copy paste the Gary Vee model. The Gary Vee model is give everything away for free.

[Scott Clary]

Jab punch.

[John Gafford]

Exactly. Build an audience and then in the future you can use that audience for whatever you'd like to use them for. If I want to sell a product or service now, I have a million eyeballs that are ready and waiting for whatever I talk to them about. If I want to just monetize with ads, I can do that if I want to. I thought about this a lot. I think this is the future of content creation. I think that creators should find startups whose product aligns with their audience and then start to take small equity positions in those startups and then use their channel, their audience as sort of a take to market strategy for that early stage startup's product. If there's that alignment between the product and the, the audience avatar. And the reason why I think that's smart is because then the creator can focus on creating and not becoming an operator in a business. They can just find a way to again leverage their assets. Yeah. So answer your question at around the two. Because I started the podcast before the company was acquired. So I started about two years before, at the point of the acquisition, that's when the style of content shifted slightly away from just pure sales and marketing topics. And then I thought, yes, jab, jab, punch, put out a ton of value. Create content that I'm interested in, speak to people that would teach me something. Because I know there's a lot of me's in the world that would love to learn from incredible entrepreneurs. And then when I have critical mass of the audience, then I can figure out what I'd like to do with it. And that was really, that was the goal. And the goal is to do something also that I can do for the next hundred years of my life. So when I look at a podcast, I'm not building it to be acquired, I'm building it because it's something that I enjoy and it's something that I can launch a product against. It today, in 10 years and 20 years from now, but I'll always keep building that audience.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, it's funny. We started this show as it was me and two of my buddies.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

That, you know, we go to the bar, hang out, whatever it was.

[John Gafford]

People are like.

[Scott Clary]

You guys were like. The people around us was like, you guys are fucking hilarious. And so one day it was like, dude, we should just do a podcast. And then it just started as a good, you know, reason to get together with two of my buddies in here, just shoot about nonsense. And I miss those days because those shows were really fun.

[John Gafford]

Yeah. But then. So then you start to evolve. So then you have to figure out, okay, now this is becoming a little bit more serious. I'm putting some money into it. It was energy into it. Okay. So now I got to figure out, how do I bring the most value to the audience? Who is the avatar that's actually listening to my show? What do they care about? How do I structure an interview so I can sort of break down the. The. The site? The. You know, break down the stress of meeting somebody for the first time where they have their guard up and they really don't want to get too personal. How do I break that down and then find a way to really pull some, like, you know, great insights that can help the audience that whoever is listening, who's. And I create my pod. I, like. I really create my podcast for me 10 years ago. Kind of like how you're writing your book, right?

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

So I create my podcast because I know that there's people in the audience that are struggling to figure out what to do with their life, are wondering if they're on the right path, the right journey. And the goal of my show now is to find some awesome entrepreneur, some great founder, some great CEO, and say, hey, listen, I want you to teach the ups and downs, the highs and lows, the bullshit that you've gone through. So whoever is listening, it feels that sense of comfort that whatever they're doing or whatever they're trying to figure out, they don't have to reinvent the wheel. People have already been through all this bullshit before, so just like, sort of keep on keeping on and keep on going. And I think that's probably how my shows evolve. So it wasn't this structured, perfectly architected thing. It was just. And by the way, I think most content and the best creators don't have this perfectly structured plan at the beginning. They just enjoy what they're doing.

[Scott Clary]

They just like what they're doing, which.

[John Gafford]

Is why they can do it for an extended period of time.

[Scott Clary]

Well, it's funny. What do they say, like, nine out of 10 podcasts never get past episode two or something?

[John Gafford]

Well, I don't even know the numbers anymore.

[Scott Clary]

It's insane.

[John Gafford]

But, yeah, if you've. If you've released 10 episodes, you're in, like, the top 1%.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah. So. So my. So, okay, so rule number one. I tell people this all the time. If you're gonna do a podcast, don't tell anyone about it until you have seven episodes in the can. Because if you. Because, dude, if you don't have seven full episodes done. Ready to go.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

Chances of getting to the eighth one are very slim.

[John Gafford]

Yeah. Very smart.

[Scott Clary]

Because a lot of people do this once or twice, and then they're like, I want to a podcast. And the lights come on. They're like. Well, they don't realize that you just have to kind of be yourself.

[John Gafford]

People up a lot of content creation because they. They get excited about it. And this is not just podcasting. Like, it could be posting on Instagram, posting on YouTube, writing, you know, tweets, you know, three times a day. Whatever it is, people get super excited about it. They start, and then real life hits. It's kind of like the gym in January. Real life hits. And then they get distracted, and then they don't. They realize that, shit, I'm not making a lot of money on this thing in the first week. Which is. Bro, you should have figured. You should have had the foresight to figure that out before you pressed press publish.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

But then all of a sudden, that motivation and that reason why they started fizzles out, and then they. Are you good?

[Scott Clary]

I'm going to sneeze.

[John Gafford]

Look at the light.

[Scott Clary]

Do I look at the light?

[John Gafford]

Yeah, that's.

[Scott Clary]

Not editing that out. That's going to stay there. Just like Joe Rogan, man. We keep it real.

[John Gafford]

That's a trick to get you to.

[Scott Clary]

It is. Yeah.

[John Gafford]

You have that.

[Scott Clary]

I was trying not to sneeze. Not, like, induce it. More like.

[John Gafford]

No, but when you have it, like.

[Scott Clary]

You snorting pepper in here.

[John Gafford]

Just got to get rid of it, dude.

[Scott Clary]

This makes.

[John Gafford]

But I think that's the biggest issue. I think that people. I think that people have the wrong expectations going into content creation. They expect too much too quick.

[Scott Clary]

Well, let's. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. So say. Let's say I'm. I'm. I'm Bill in Indiana.

[John Gafford]

Yeah, sorry, Bill.

[Scott Clary]

And Bill wants to create a podcast so what should Bill's. I'm curious what your expectations are for timeline to being able to make anything out of this.

[John Gafford]

Yeah, well, first of all, you can't. So I want you to, I want you to listen to what I'm saying I would do if I needed to monetize this as quickly as possible. Because when I started doing it, it was a lot of fun for me, but I wasn't focused on the quickest path to revenue, which is not, it's not necessarily smart. It's. It is what it is. I mean, I had my set of circumstances when I started my show, not everybody's circumstances. Sure. So let's make the assumption that you don't just want to, because you should find a way to monetize it and take it as seriously as possible as quickly as possible. I think that's very important because most people don't have. Most people don't have the will to keep it going for a long period of time without making money or having some sort of business outcome from this podcast.

[Scott Clary]

Well, what's worse is people don't understand there's a marketing budget that goes with this. Like these things don't grow. These things don't grow organically like you think they would.

[John Gafford]

They don't.

[Scott Clary]

You're not going to throw it up there and think that your mom's going to share it with her knitting group.

[John Gafford]

And everybody's podcast is probably one of the hardest things I've ever had to grow.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, you got to promote. It costs money to make this go.

[John Gafford]

And, and this is also why, I mean, you do video. I do video as well. I just built out a studio because I wanted to, I wanted to index on and rank on YouTube, which is, I mean, that's the second largest search engine in the world outside of Google. But outside of that, if you just do audio, nobody sees it. There's no organic reach Anyways. So to answer your question, to start, figure out your objective, your North Star for the podcast. So if you're just podcasting the podcast, unless you have the financial means to do it, it's going to turn into a very expensive hobby very quickly and a very time consuming hobby. So I would say that you should figure out how the podcast helps your business objectives, whatever that may be, or.

[Scott Clary]

The business that you're in.

[John Gafford]

Yes, correct. So I started a podcast outside of the business that I was in. For most people, that's not smart. For most people, they should start a podcast that supports the business that they're in, meaning that the Interviews that you have or the subject matter that you, that you capture or the questions that you ask are questions that your customers are asking, because that means that the content that you're creating is going to turn into content that is actually going to be actively answering questions that your customers care about.

[Scott Clary]

More importantly, I'll take, I'll take one step further, like, because, you know, we're in the real estate business, here is what we do. And I tell realtors all the time, all the time, if you're going to start a podcast, go after your clients, your existing clients that have businesses and have them on to promote their businesses. Because so often, you know, I mean, you can walk out the front door of any business and hit a realtor with a 7 iron in just about a direction. There's millions of us. Right. But at the same time, if you're bringing someone on and trying to help their business.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

You're not going to have to ask for their business when they, when it comes down.

[John Gafford]

So this is, this is the second, this is the second part of it. So not only is the content answering questions for your target customer, that if you do interview style, which I think is also a smart play, if you're using it for a business objective, that hour where you're sitting with somebody, that hour is a relationship building rapport, building hours, for sure. So not only is it is. Are you using it strategically to create content, you are also actively building rapport with somebody who could be a customer. So I think that's also a very smart strategy to use.

[Scott Clary]

I mean, no, I laugh because. Yes. I mean, one of the main reasons for me doing this is to build the network, right?

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

And there are times, and here's, here's a fun fact for the old podcast. There's times when you sit with people for an hour and at the end of the hour you're like, I don't really like this person. Not you. We're doing great. We're doing great. Scott. I'm not funny, but no, I mean, can you honestly not say that's not true?

[John Gafford]

No, it's very true. It's very true. I mean, so it's funny because sometimes because now I now, I guess, like, my brand is podcaster. That's my brand right now. That's all I really do. So everybody knows me as a podcaster, which means, like, even when I get asked to speak, it's not keynotes anymore. You know what it is? It's like moderate a panel on stage. Because you're a podcast, you're a good moderator.

[Scott Clary]

You're a great moderator, Scott. That's what we want.

[John Gafford]

Moderator.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

But, yeah, it's funny. So sometimes when I get asked to go on other people's shows, they always ask me, like, who's your. Who's your worst interview? And I'll never answer, but damn straight. I have, like, a couple people that pop up in my head, and I'm.

[Scott Clary]

Like, dude, well, the worst, man. Like, here's the thing. So back to monetizing, like, the way you monetize a podcast. In my view, if there's other ways, you tell me. But obviously, in building that, you want to capture the audience best you can through a mailing list and all of those things, which is why we asked you guys to subscribe to the NUT newsletter and all of those things. But then there's also, you know, if you're listening to this now on any of our great podcast partners, you're hearing ads. Obviously, we get paid for those as they come up. You're hearing that right now. And then there's, of course, when guests come on, there's something to sell. There's affiliate stuff. Sometimes we can make money that way. And then there's the paid guest, which is the infotainment, which is part of this. Right. Because you'll have people call up that really want to come on, that want to. Want to leverage your audience, and you've got to charge them sometimes. Come on. Scott did not pay to be here. By the way, we like Scott's business, so he's paid nothing to be here today. Just want to clarify that. But it happens occasionally. But the problem with the paid guests. And I'm guessing you have paid guests sometimes, too.

[John Gafford]

Yes, I've probably done about five or six.

[Scott Clary]

Rarely. Okay.

[John Gafford]

Because I hate them.

[Scott Clary]

I hate them, too. Because here's why. Because it turns into an infomercial.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

And there was a dude one time that my booker booked me, and he was selling some really complicated water system, like some crazy water system for, I mean, state municipalities, and he paid to come on. And I'm going through this, and I'm like, dude, this is reading like a science manual. This is terrible. At the end of it, I end up saying, hey, man, I'm going to give your money back. Because I'm not hearing this at all.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

Because it just would be terrible.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

And it hurts.

[John Gafford]

It hurts the show, too.

[Scott Clary]

Give you all the footage you want, and you can. You can have that. And there you go.

[John Gafford]

Yeah, I think that. So that's why. That's why I think that tying the podcast back to your business and having a product that you sell is the smartest reason why you should start a podcast.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

So have a product or service that's lined up with the audience.

[Scott Clary]

But isn't some of that like when Alex Jones was selling like the vitamins or whatever he was selling on?

[John Gafford]

Well, Joe Rogan was selling. What was it on it or the.

[Scott Clary]

Hell yeah. Joe Rogan's like, with it and in shape and like a UFC dude.

[John Gafford]

Oh, that's what. Okay, so yeah, so doesn't go with the brand, Alex, you got to figure out, you got to figure out what actually makes sense.

[Scott Clary]

You want to sell a Chunky Bar, I might buy one. You look like you enjoyed one.

[John Gafford]

Read through that bullshit. Yeah, people know when you actually like my best advertisers.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

And again, I don't have my own product, but if I did, I'd have to make sure that it fits right. It actually fits. I'm thinking about different things that I can launch. I'm thinking about like, like products like how to build a podcast that. That fits. I've done it. It fits right. If I was, if I was promoting something that I've never used before, people smell through that BS all day and it's really not gonna. Yeah, you make a quick buck, but then it ruins the trust with the audience. So all the advertisers that work long term with me, they're all products I use.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

So like, I mean like I've worked with HubSpot for three years now. I've worked with, in great, great affiliate program with affiliate program. But these are, these are tools. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that they're software. They're tools that I actually use on a day to day for my actual business. So it makes a lot of sense because I can talk about why they actually help me and why they didn't make my life less stressful on a day to day. But yeah, I mean, if you're going to pick a product, if you're going to build a podcast, type back to whatever you're selling, make sure that it just syncs up because if you don't, you're going to ruin trust.

[Scott Clary]

And yeah, I would never promote a product I don't use. In this next segment, brought to you by Vagisil. Just kidding. No, not doing it. No, but you have to. And I think that's the issue is I think about a lot that scene from the Social network when they're trying to sell Ads on early Facebook, and they're like, no, we can't sell ads. We don't know what it is yet. Like, there's such a fine line of when and how you monetize.

[John Gafford]

So. Yes, correct. If you have a product that is aligned with your audience, then I don't see an issue with monetizing early on if it's actually something that helps your audience and solves the problem your audience has. So, for example, if I'm starting a podcast on real estate, and I am a real estate agent, and somebody reaches out to me and say, hey, can you list my house? Okay. Like, go for it. That's kind of why I'm doing it. I'm starting a podcast on the creator economy, and I have a course teaching people how to get their first thousand followers on Instagram. No problem. Because I've done it. Hopefully. Hopefully you've actually done it yourself. That's a precursor for selling it, but then the content aligns with that. But if you are, for example, trying to monetize through ads for not completely off products, but, like, adjacent products. Say, like, for example, you start a podcast and you get an option to sell athletic greens, and it's a business podcast. There's a place for it, but it's not right. I would say don't worry about monetizing too quickly. Don't inundate your audience with ads.

[Scott Clary]

AG1 now, no longer AG1.

[John Gafford]

That's true.

[Scott Clary]

I know the CEO actually rebranded to AG1.

[John Gafford]

They. They do a lot of podcast ads.

[Scott Clary]

Did you know what's crazy? The CEO of Now, AG1. Do you know where I know her from?

[John Gafford]

No.

[Scott Clary]

She should be a Hooters girl, actually. Oh.

[John Gafford]

Did you know her?

[Scott Clary]

I did know. Way back a million years ago. I did. Yes, I did.

[John Gafford]

I don't know her story. I haven't had her on the show.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, yeah, she's. She's great. She's great. I'm not gonna throw her name out. She doesn't want to put that out there.

[John Gafford]

But she built a. An incredible.

[Scott Clary]

She was at Cinnabon. No. Well, she was. No, no, no, no, no, no. She was. She was the CEO at Cinnabon. Cinnabon got brought by private equity, and then athletic greens just hired her as CEO. She's not founder. There's. She just took it over as CEO.

[John Gafford]

Okay. I don't rebrand. I don't know the story.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, her name's Kat. She's great. So there you go. Yeah. Yeah. You know, now that I say that out loud, I probably Should. Yeah, right.

[John Gafford]

That's very cool.

[Scott Clary]

I should. Yeah, but I mean, that's. Yeah. So there you go. Take that. Everybody thinks Hooters waitresses, you know, never amount to anything. There you go.

[John Gafford]

I mean, it's the same as like somebody starting their career as like a bottle service girl or like you start somewhere.

[Scott Clary]

Well, yeah, Bottle service girls have to end up in real estate. I think when you apply at the, like the clubs, you just have to say on the bottom, yes, I agree.

[John Gafford]

To get a Williams. Like, I agree.

[Scott Clary]

I agree right now to get that license later. I mean, look, dude, if you can get somebody to buy a, you know, $3,000 bottle of vodka.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

Hey, man, you could probably sell house.

[John Gafford]

I agree.

[Scott Clary]

Oh boy. Now I forgot what we were talking about because now we're talking about bottle girls.

[John Gafford]

You're talking about. I know, it's a distraction, right? We were talking about we're in Vegas.

[Scott Clary]

Oh, yeah, we are.

[John Gafford]

Now we're talking about, we're talking about when to monetize.

[Scott Clary]

Yes.

[John Gafford]

And I think it's, I think it's after you've established credibility in the market. I think that it's, I think that when you're talking about ad based sales, I think you have to establish credibility and trust first. I think it's a little bit different than a product based sale where you can sell immediately. If I have a product or service and I run Facebook ads, or if I have a high ticket consulting offer or like a done for you service or a physical good or a software, I mean the, you have to, you sell it right away to the audience that needs it. But when you are selling ads, you are selling based on trust, and trust takes time. Like if I have a, if I have a software, if I sell you the software today, it's going to work today. If I'm selling you access to an audience, the audience, and the return on that investment is going to increase the longer that I have that relationship with the audience. So day one, it's not going to be as good as day 1000.

[Scott Clary]

See, that brings up such an interesting point, which is that the real trust in the real audience and anymore it's so difficult to gauge like who's got a real audience. Like if you look at, I mean, I've had people hit us up to be on the podcast, have a million followers on Instagram and you look at a reel and it's got 800 views. That's a good signal, bro. Those are all bots. It's not real. And I think everybody went in this gold rush of followers back in the day to build these artificial, you know, audiences that don't resonate with them, that don't engage with them, that they could care less.

[John Gafford]

I know. I mean, there's a lot of it.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah. And that. And that concept is so hard to reconcile.

[John Gafford]

So what it does is it. If you are starting, it is. It's just demoralizing because you are looking at somebody that has this fake audience and you're saying, well, how could I ever get there? Well, meanwhile, they actually don't have any influence. They don't have any audience, and you're benchmarking against bullshit. So when you start, I mean, don't. I would say this is another idea. You shouldn't focus on numbers. You should focus on. On results that actually mean something. Right. So if you are building an audience, you don't need a million followers, and you shouldn't be benchmarking your success against somebody who does, because that's all vanity metrics. Yeah, I think that you should be focusing on. Okay, hey, let's figure out how to build a channel, build a platform. Doesn't mean matter if it's Twitter, Instagram, podcast, YouTube. And then what is the. What is the leading indicator for success? So how do I. Is it. Is it retention and watch time on my YouTube videos? Is it shares on Instagram? Is it retweet? Find that leading metric, leading indicator that's going to actually convert into an actual business result, and that's how you gauge your success. So you can make a lot of money having 10,000 followers on Instagram that are all buying your product or service. You can make a lot of money with 50,000 subscribers on YouTube that have 60% retention on your video all the way through to the end. Like, there's better things to look at.

[Scott Clary]

I want to ask you something I struggle with.

[John Gafford]

Okay.

[Scott Clary]

I struggle with this in content creation anymore. And have you ever seen Idiocracy? No. All right. Idiocracy. It's a. Luke, you should watch this movie because it's pretty scary.

[John Gafford]

Okay.

[Scott Clary]

It's a movie about Luke Wilson goes into the future. He travels to the future, is frozen or something. I don't remember how he gets there, but America is so dumbed down. Like, everybody is basically a blithering idiot. And he just happens. He's a normal dude and happens to go like 100 years in the future. And he's the smartest guy on the. On earth.

[John Gafford]

So funny.

[Scott Clary]

Because America's gotten so dumbed down. And when you watch this it's kind of where we're headed, I think, as a society. Because here's one of the things that I grapple with, right, which is I just don't understand how certain things become as popular as they are. Because here I am, I'm doing my best to educate, to help, to encourage people to do great, and you're like, fuck, I'm busting this stuff out. I'm doing what I think is very smart, very intelligent content. And then the H girl who literally probably can't even spell hock to however you spell it is dropping a podcast that probably gets more hits than I do in the first week.

[John Gafford]

He's doing very well right now. It makes no sense to me. Well, how do you.

[Scott Clary]

How do you reconcile that? Do you dumb your shit down or you just.

[John Gafford]

No, you don't. Because again, again, the answer all comes back to the sort of, like, the basic principles that we're talking about is like, what's your North Star? What's your objective for the content? Because if your objective is to become Joe Rogan, then you shouldn't make highbrow super, super complex. Because Joe Rogan is not high brow and super complex. And neither are murder podcasts that also sit in the top five or whatever. You have to understand what is your goal? Like, what is your goal? Do you just want to. First of all, this isn't new to podcasting. This isn't new to content. How many people would sit down and watch a Senate hearing versus the Super Bowl? Yeah, okay, fair. So, I mean, less people will watch a Senate hearing, which are probably pretty important conversations.

[Scott Clary]

But the most. But like, the thing that was trending.

[John Gafford]

On Twitter, you're just asking why there's a standard distribution of people that love entertainment versus.

[Scott Clary]

But okay, fine. Super bowl to me is entertainment. You have the best athletes in the world performing at the highest level.

[John Gafford]

How can you. But the highest. That's my point.

[Scott Clary]

But the highest retweeted tweet two days ago was some kid I did not know existed called the Rizzler, who's five years old, that's on a wrestling show and his. All he does is do this.

[John Gafford]

It's.

[Scott Clary]

And that's the highest retweeted thing on Twitter two days ago.

[John Gafford]

I understand why you don't understand. Because I don't. I don't. It's not entertainment to me, too. No, but it's entertainment to someone.

[Scott Clary]

Like, I want to slap my kids that they even think like, Like. No, you understand. I'm like, you're right. I Don't.

[John Gafford]

To answer your question, though, like, you got to create content that accomplishes the objective that you set out for that content.

[Scott Clary]

I feel like I'm gonna feel like I'm standing, like I'm the old man on the porch yelling at the moon right now.

[John Gafford]

I create the same type of content as you. Yeah, I create the exact same type of content. And you don't think that I've seen people that start a podcast after me that are just pure, like. Like culture podcasts.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

Like, just shooting this shit on just culture that have gone. Grown way faster than me. And I. And I look at it, I'm like, fuck, this is. This is really frustrating. But then again, I'm like, who am I serving? Yeah, who am I actually serving? When I sit down with yourself, when I sit down with the founder of Netflix, the founder of Reebok, when I sit down with Seth Godin, and we have these incredibly intelligent, like, just like the forefront of thought leadership. Not me, the other guys, extrapolating this from them.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I get it.

[John Gafford]

I'm not. I'm not benchmarking myself against some of those dudes.

[Scott Clary]

I get it.

[John Gafford]

I think, wow, these are ideas that can actually change the world from people that have actually changed the world. If I dumb down my content, then I'm one less voice that is. That is bringing those ideas to the masses. So I'm hoping that. Yeah, I mean, my growth is slower than somebody who talks about sports or culture or entertainment. But. But again, it's not who I serve.

[Scott Clary]

Because something else I wrestle with. We talk about content creation and being omnipresent, being on all channels.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

I think that the dopamine addiction is a real thing. I think that it's. It's creating ADHD in our kids. It's creating things, which, again, which is why I'm trying to actually, if I'm going to create content, I actually want it to be valuable to somebody.

[John Gafford]

But can I add one thing so just really quickly?

[Scott Clary]

You got whatever you want, man.

[John Gafford]

Yeah, yeah. No. Just because you create content that serves an audience that's trying to, like, build a business or. Or become better versions of themselves, it doesn't mean you have an excuse to not. Not achieve mastery at that content creation, not sort of perfect your craft, not prep. Not find ways to make that content still as entertaining and useful as possible. So some people sort of, if they're creating smart content, I find they default to, well, it's smart. So I'm not going to focus on trying to find entertaining. Entertaining, Which I think is also incorrect.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

So you also can't get lazy just because you're targeting a certain niche that maybe is, like, a little bit more highbrow.

[Scott Clary]

No, no, I think. Look, if. If people don't. If people are watching or listening to something that you do and they don't laugh or get pissed or experience some emotion, what. What are you doing?

[John Gafford]

This is why, as a podcast host, what your goal is, is to. Is to make the person feel safe so they can be real. Because that realness is going to be the X factor in the entertainment. Because, again, keep in mind, the people that you speak to, who I speak to, they've been interviewed by 20, 30 different podcast hosts, and they've been on all the different YouTube channels. So the X factor is doing your prep and then really just finding a way to pull out things that haven't been pulled out before, because that alone will create entertainment value.

[Scott Clary]

Well, I find when I prep folks, when I do this, like I told you when you showed up, I don't have a list of questions. There's nothing on the desk. If you're watching us on YouTube, I don't have questions because I find that when I used to do that, Yeah. I would go through. And even using ChatGPT or whatever else, blah, blah, you're pulling the same stuff that everybody pulls, and it becomes the same repetitive stuff. And I've seen. I've seen people come through here, and then I've seen them on other podcasts, and you could just tell they're on autopilot. Like, here's question A. And it's like, here's the answer for A, here's question B. And it's the same thing over and over. So I don't do that. But I found the best questions that I do. That's why I like authors. Right. Because I can. I can power through a book pretty quick.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

And I can find stuff in the book that interests me that nobody else has probably taken the time to get through.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

So how do you prep for a guest?

[John Gafford]

I watch their interviews, and I try and find things that they speak about, but the host doesn't go into. So they'll. They'll speak about a personal story, but the host won't take it a step further and ask how that impacted their life or what they felt going through that story, which leads to a whole other array of sub stories coming out of that one particular thing. But I'll watch a lot of interviews with them. And so I get a basic Premise for what they're like domain expert and subject matter expert at. But then I'll just go a level deeper. It's really not that complicated. Like a little bit.

[Scott Clary]

You can see when people light up a little bit.

[John Gafford]

Yeah. You can see what gives people energy.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

And if it doesn't. And by the way, I tell them this before they even start. I say, because every. This is how the conversation goes with every guest. I'll say, you know what would make this a win for you? And they'll say, well, I just want to serve your audience. And then I'll say, what do you have to promote? And like, oh, this book.

[Scott Clary]

And then conversation we just had 49 minutes ago.

[John Gafford]

It's the same thing every single time. So I know how it's going to go and I know they want to serve my audience and I know that they're not going to say, this is actually what I care about. And this is. So I have to find it, I have to search for it. And when you notice somebody lights up about a topic, I don't care if there are six other topics that you had planned, go really deep on that one topic because they're going to have so much emotion and they're going to bring out so much about that one particular thing that they've. And they'll be appreciative because they'll real. They'll. They'll recognize too.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

They're not stupid. They'll recognize when you want to just sit in a topic and just. And just bask in it because it's something they care so deeply about and it's so recent on the top of their mind and that's when the best content comes out.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah. I've had episodes of this show where people come on are subject matter experts. Vena Jetty, great example. He's a friend of mine. Veena is a multi. Has a billion. Billion in assets and multifamily under management in her portfolio. And we never, we never talked about multifamily. Yeah, exactly. We just never got.

[John Gafford]

Because she's bored of talking about.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah. So we never got to it. We talked about not raising worthless kids for literally an hour.

[John Gafford]

That's a beautiful subject because a lot of people that have massive amounts of wealth have a really hard time succession planning and figuring out how to not turn their kids into. Because they never had to work for anything in their life.

[Scott Clary]

Yep.

[John Gafford]

So that's an incredible topic that a lot of people who are listening to this who have achieved success and have made a lot of money would actually tune into because there's people that. They have no interest building a billion dollar multifamily portfolio. Yeah, they've made their money in software or consumer goods, and they've just. They've just absolutely killed it. And, you know, their, their money's working for them now, and they don't want to deal with starting again. They do a little bit of angel investing here and there, but they're not going to build a billion dollar multifamily portfolio. But the second there's this common thread, well, I have money and I have kids, and she has money and she has kids. All of a sudden this podcast becomes interesting because now you're speaking to the human element behind the successful person, not just the tactical stuff that. Yeah, she's done it at scale, but I could probably hear the tactical stuff from another 20 people on YouTube.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah. Well, let me ask you this, because you create so much content so much sometimes, dude. Huh? Too much.

[John Gafford]

Too much sometimes.

[Scott Clary]

Tell me about the imposter syndrome. You got to have it sometimes.

[John Gafford]

I have the imposter syndrome all the time. Yeah. So you know what the mo. I mean, you put in, like, anything if you just want to. If you, if you do it enough, you start to. To get over it. I don't know. I don't know how else to describe it. I have imposter syndrome. Whenever I sit in front of huge guests, I have imposter syndrome. When I write a newsletter, I have a. So my, My list is about 300, 000 people. So I get stressed out sometimes when I'm.

[Scott Clary]

How'd you build the. How do you build the list? List.

[John Gafford]

A lot of writing.

[Scott Clary]

Writing and one person. One.

[John Gafford]

One email at a time.

[Scott Clary]

Well, can we talk about that? I mean, I want to. We're going to come back to it. I mean, to cut you off. Finish your thought and we'll come back to that.

[John Gafford]

No, imposter syndrome is tough to deal with. I think that, like most people, my, my imposter syndrome really shows when I step on stage. That always stresses me out, but that's like the most common fear in the world, so that's not that unusual. And the way that I've dealt with it is kind of how I've dealt with everything. I just put myself into that situation again and again and again and again, and eventually it becomes less stressful.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

So the first time I step on stage, I'm shitting myself, and then the 100th time I'm not. And it's. It's really like it's not rocket science. But what I would do is in between the big stage gigs, where there's like a significant size audience, I would ask anybody and everybody who's putting on an event, can I just please talk for 10 to 15 minutes for free? Just let me talk about. You can tell me what subject I can talk about. Entrepreneurship, marketing, Instagram, podcasting. I can talk about software. I can talk about sales, marketing, anything. Like any of those. Just let me do like 10 to 15 minutes. Let me just keep exposing myself. It's just like exposure, exposure, exposure. And then over time, obstacle is the way. Exactly. That's it. And over time, you. You get a little bit less stressed out and you don't get like a small little panic attack before you jump on stage. And I think that that's how I've dealt with most versions of Imposter Stream. I've just done it so much.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, it's funny. I was talking to KG last night, my buddy Kevin Griffin speaking, the same that he is. And we were at dinner and we're talking about. We were talking. Here's the funny thing, right? Kevin is the lead singer of Better Than Ezra. He's been on stage for 40 years, right? 30 years, whatever it is, been on stage. And he told me his first time, he went up to do a speech, not sing with a speech. He goes, man, my throat sealed up. And I was like, holy shit. He goes, I completely fell ap stage. I was never been that nervous in my life. And this is a guy that has been on stage a million times. And he just said, yeah, you kind of work through it.

[John Gafford]

You just work through it. And he's like, now I can do certain things. Like, I mean, I wouldn't. I wouldn't drink a ton of caffeine before I go on stage, because that doesn't help anxiety. You can do something called, like, box breathing, which is really just inhaling, holding a breath and then letting it out, which also sort of like there's a biological response, which. Which calms your nerves. Prepping. I mean, it sounds stupid, but if you prep the material and you don't have to worry about the material, or you're speaking about things that you genuinely know about. Yeah, that also calms the anxiety. But even outside of all those things, just exposing yourself to it more often, I actually. You know, it's so funny. The first time I ever really spoke in public, I don't know why I do this to myself. It was at Inbound, which is a conference with. As of last, I spoke At Inbound. Three times so far in my life. And the last one, I think there's 112,000 people. It's a massive concept in Boston. And that was the first time I jumped on stage to do a panel with a couple other people that were on my show. They invited me out because they've sponsored the podcast for the past three years now, said, you want to speak at Inbound? And that was kind of like my first foray into public speaking. And I wouldn't recommend that being the first thing that most people did. I think there was like a sweat imprint on the seat behind me. It was. It was very nervous. But the point is, that's like, you're.

[Scott Clary]

Gonna lose your virginity.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

To a porn star while we film it. Yeah. Not good at all. That's not good.

[John Gafford]

So. But the point is, after that, I'm like, okay, that was stressful. I. And you always think you're worse than you are, by the way.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

You all, of course, everyone was like, great job. Like, I mean, like, Gina's like, sitting in the audience that you. You fucking killed it. Like, good job. Everybody who I was on the panel with, like, awesome job. Like, it was. It was really well done. And in my mind, I just felt like I wanted to have a heart attack and die. I felt like I was gonna have a heart attack. I'm like, just. Just do it now so I don't have to deal with the next 20 minutes.

[Scott Clary]

It's like that scene from Old School where, like, you just like the. Where you just like, it's an out of body experience and the speech goes off. You're like, what? What happened?

[John Gafford]

Yeah, but, you know, I live. And then after that, I was like, I don't want to feel like that again. And I. Reps. Yeah, it was just reps. And then I just jumped into every single speaking opportunity that I.

[Scott Clary]

What's the fun? Because people, you know, you talk about.

[John Gafford]

We can talk about the newsletter growth too, if you want.

[Scott Clary]

We're gonna get to that. But like, most people talk about imposter syndrome. Like, they don't want to turn a camera. Oh, I look terrible on camera. I sound bad on camera. I don't want to do this. Like, just.

[John Gafford]

So my recommendation for somebody who wants to start creating content is imposter syndrome is real. And of course you're going to be stressed out, but you have to find a way to again, architect the environment so that you forget that you're creating the content. Because most people can just have a conversation, but we can Have a conversation. It doesn't matter if the camera's on or off. But some people sitting in this chair, when the cameras turn on, they turn into a different person. Now, what you have to do if you're starting out is you have to find a way to architect the environment so that you don't know that the cameras are on and you don't feel like you're creating content. So what I recommend when people first start, because video is usually the issue. It's not usually writing. People don't usually stress out about writing, but video is usually an issue. I say sit down across from somebody, ask them to print out or on their phone, have a list of questions that you know. They're all topics that you know about. Turn on a camera, and then, like, block off two hours, like Sunday afternoon, whatever, when you have nothing else going on. And that person, I just want them to sit there and ask you about things that you know about and you will forget. The cameras are there after about 10 to 15 minutes, and you're just going to be having a conversation with somebody talking about things that you care about, that you're passionate about. And if you look back at that recording, that's actually incredible content. Yeah, that's all it is. So I don't have to.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, I think that. Well, that's. That's one point. You don't have to look directly into the camera for it to be good.

[John Gafford]

No, you just have to talk about things that you care about.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

So. And by the way, by the way, by the way, if you actually look at. There's something called a fly on the wall effect. The fly on the wall effect is when people. This is why podcast content does. Well. People who are scrolling on Instagram or on YouTube or whatever, they. They like to feel like they are the fly on the wall of a conversation. When somebody is staring at you directly, you do not feel like you're a fly on the wall. It feels like the person who's staring at the camera directly is directly communicating with me. But when I'm in a conversation like this with a podcast, there's a camera just off to the side or whatever. And I. The audience knows that I'm not speaking to them. I'm speaking to you. There's a. There's a fly on the wall effect, and they actually enjoy that content slightly more than if I was talking directly to them in the camera. Camera.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah. Because you thought you're preaching.

[John Gafford]

Yes, exactly.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah. Nobody wants to be told.

[John Gafford]

Nobody wants to be told what to do. But if I have a smart thought and it's clipped out and it's in a conversation, very organic conversation with someone else. That's the type of content that people share and people like and people engage with. And that's why if you actually look at. I can't remember her name. There's, there's one woman. I'm sure if you Google this story, you'll be able to find it. She rented out a podcast studio on her own and just spoke off camera.

[Scott Clary]

And I'm googling, see if you can find.

[John Gafford]

So I have to remember her name.

[Scott Clary]

Rent it out.

[John Gafford]

I'll tell you the story of what she did, though. Okay. She booked out a podcast studio.

[Scott Clary]

Doesn't. We'll call her Mary.

[John Gafford]

For today's purposes, we'll call her Mary. She booked out a podcast studio and she tested preaching directly to the camera versus no host there. Just her talking to somebody as if there was a host. And she's just talking about the same stuff that she'd be talking to the camera too. And the engagement on the higher was the higher on, on the, on the content where it looked like she was in, in a podcast.

[Scott Clary]

Do you find that. Because here's the weird thing. I find that my, I find that the clips that we do with the podcast when I have a guest.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

Do better on Instagram. The solo pod stuff does better on TikTok. I don't know why I don't know.

[John Gafford]

TikTok as well as Instagram.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

So I'm not an SME, not a subject matter expert.

[Scott Clary]

I don't, yeah, it's weird. I, I just, I don't know why that is. But that stuff does better over there.

[John Gafford]

Than, but, but I look at, so when I'm, when I'm trying to figure out a strategy for myself, I look at people that have way more money to invest in marketing and people that are trying to figure out that strategy. So Starbucks effect. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I don't have to reinvent the wheel. If I'm looking at, you know, how to grow a podcast on, on TikTok, I'm probably looking at Stephen Bartlett with Diary of a CEO. I'm probably looking at Chris Williamson with Modern Wisdom. Them I'm seeing what are their strategies that they're trying and emulating them and emulating them as a first step. And then you also, by the way, I'm a big fan of reverse engineering success. So whether or not it's podcast, newsletter, Twitter, Instagram, find the people that are in your domain that are killing it on that platform. And as a first pass at content creation, look at what they're doing and copy that just to start. Then you'll make it your own. But don't have to reinvent the wheel. There's people that are growing on Twitter faster and quicker than anyone else. And go find that person and go figure out, okay, how do they structure their tweets? What do they write about? It's been so long have you been. Hello, I'm doing well. Dave, why are you talking that way? Please say one for a compliment or two for a question.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, this is weird. I think I'm gonna go. Talking with an automated phone tree can feel pretty ridiculous. That's why when you call Pacific Source Health Plans, you'll get a real person to answer all your important questions. Pacific Source Health Plans. This is a real person. How can I help you? Human service, not automated phone trees. Find a plan at Pacific Source members first dot com.

[John Gafford]

What is the, what is the formula? Is it, you know, is it this quippy little like, you know, three point thought or is it more of like a longer block of text, which it usually never is on Twitter? Like what is, what is the formula that really gets a lot of engagement and speaks to a Twitter audience and who is the person that's doing that the best right now? And go find them and then go. And that's how you start your content journey. You just study the people that have been doing it before.

[Scott Clary]

Emulate. I love it, man. That's, you know, it's, it's one of those things where we talked about fake it till you make it, which I'm not a fan of. I, you know, I think people see through that chip emulating is not the same as imitating. It's. There's two different things. If you start, you become a carbon copy imitation of somebody that's doing successful or you're trying to. People see through that as. I'm not going to use the authentic shit. I said authentic. I hate that word on podcast. It's like the buzzword. It's not genuine. We'll use that. But emulating someone, like you said, that's doing it a certain way is the smart way.

[John Gafford]

That's the path. And the reason why you're not copying is because you will eventually learn that the best content, it brings in your lived experience. It brings in the stuff that you've dealt with. That's why if you're talking about, if you're just trying to like pontificate on ideas and you're just trying to keep it very high level. It's never going to really hit home with people. But if you talk about the stuff that you've dealt with in your life, the problems that, that you. You're still dealing with literally right now, that's the con. And then you. And then you structure it through a frame that fits that audience. That's how your content does well. So if you, as a podcast host, if you never bring in your personal experience in your personal life, it's going to be boring. But if you do bring in your personal experience in your personal life and then you figure out how to edit a reel, that works really well on TikTok. That's a winning formula.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, sometimes for my wife, nothing is.

[John Gafford]

I mean, I mean, even on this, like, whatever, our podcast, I've spoken about Gina a couple times. I spoke about what she does because it's my life. Like, it's, It's. It's what I've lived. And if we spend even more time, I'd probably talk about all the stuff that hasn't worked out, and we haven't really gone there, but I think that's really important to bring up.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

So that. Because that's what differentiates you, too. If not, you're just a talking head. And there's a. And your favorite content creators, there's some big creators that don't include their personal life, but they're like vanilla. It's like they could be subbed out by anyone else talking about the same shit. Like, the best creators, they bring their whole life into it or a significant portion of it.

[Scott Clary]

But is that really true, though? Because, like, look at Gary V. You know nothing about that dude other than there's garage sales, sports cards, and the jets.

[John Gafford]

Yeah, but what else do you know? But I know that his. Okay, so to. To play devil's advocate, I do know that his is. He came up with his dad's wine shop, and he did, like, he did his wine stuff. I mean, he's pretty. He doesn't talk about his divorce.

[Scott Clary]

No, because he puts out. He puts out what he wants you to know.

[John Gafford]

He doesn't talk about his divorce.

[Scott Clary]

Here's what I'm going to give you.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

These three things.

[John Gafford]

I think that would be a great extra dimension that would speak to him who he is as a person.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah. But he's just so great. It's like he's even said, I'm going to give you these three things. This is what you get. You get the jets, you get cards you get, you get. What is it? Garage sales? That's what you get.

[John Gafford]

You know, I think that another thing that's important is to understand that some people build very large audiences when the market wasn't as crowded.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

And the game that we're playing in right now is Red Ocean. For sure is Red Ocean. And I think that, okay, fine, maybe 10 years ago will work for him.

[Scott Clary]

It will not work.

[John Gafford]

Will not work for you. 100%, being more authentic. And this is why I think vloggers do so well.

[Scott Clary]

Bloggers.

[John Gafford]

Bloggers, like on YouTube?

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

Because they include their whole life. I mean, look at the Paul brothers. Like there wasn't a bit of their life that they didn't cover. And now they're enormous household names. And now even the biggest up and coming stars that your kids like that I don't even understand are streamers that stream nonstop. Their whole life. Stream their whole life. So I'm not saying you have to go to that extreme, but I'm saying that including little bits of your life does help create. It turns you into a human and not just another thing to scroll through on Instagram.

[Scott Clary]

It's so funny because my success, really, the pinnacle of what made it was my parents on reality television. That's what made me. Right. Being on the Apprentice. And even though that was a crafted story line, you know, it's, it's very, it was very crafted and very edited to tell a story that was entertaining and compelling. I get that. But you look at the difference now. You're right. There's people who are like 24 hours a day every. I mean, their house is just on. What is it? That guy Kai or whatever his name.

[John Gafford]

Is, he's longest live stream ever. So he just streams in his house. Like non stop.

[Scott Clary]

Just non stop.

[John Gafford]

This is who you're competing with. So again, maybe 10 years ago you didn't have to do that, but now I. First of all, I think that it's good because it allows you to like, listen, we could talk about at any point, we talk about relationships and how the right partner can make or break it. And I can give you examples of that. Hasn't worked out. When I felt like, you know, my, my world is ending and Gina's been like, scott, shut the fuck up, you're fine. Like, which a good partnership. So I mean, but that I don't want to, I don't want to exclude that from my content because I think that's actually useful for people.

[Scott Clary]

That's a good. I'm gonna ask you this Question. Because a lot of I entrepreneurs, like, a lot of high level entrepreneurs are built a certain way when it comes to dealing with failure, stress, everything else. And for me, like, I gotta let it hit me. Like, it's gotta hit me. I need it to sting me for like one day, right? I need one day of staying on it. And like, I'll tell my wife, like, ah, this is. The sky is falling, everything is blah, blah. And I can let go of those emotions on a dime. Like, I'll just decide as, as Mikey C. Rock said, does it go in the tank or the trunk? Yeah, you know what I mean? I'll make that decision very quickly. Does it, you know, become baggage or turn into fuel? Yeah, and it's always fuel for me. But my poor wife will carry that around, carry my, like, purging of this anger for days. It is your wife. Does she dump it off quick or.

[John Gafford]

She, she gets rid of it very quickly.

[Scott Clary]

Does she? Good for you.

[John Gafford]

Yeah, she gets rid of it very quickly. My poor wife, she is, she is about, like. She's also very entrepreneurial. She built her own business too. And she realizes, like, there is no benefit to sitting with this. It doesn't solve anything. Yeah, like, if shit is going to be bad, fine, but it's like whatever's created, the bad shit has already happened. There's no time travel here. You got to fix it. So what are the actions that allow you to fix it?

[Scott Clary]

How long do you let it sting you when it hits? You give a couple. Is it a day for you? A couple of days. Like, what's the sting?

[John Gafford]

A day or two there too? Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

Do you wallow in it? Little bit?

[John Gafford]

No, I. Oh, I'm vertical.

[Scott Clary]

I'm all the way in it for like a full day.

[John Gafford]

No, I'm trying to think. I've never thought about this before.

[Scott Clary]

I'm just all the way in, man. For like. I'm like, I'm an idiot. This is so stupid.

[John Gafford]

I don't know. I think that what happens is I wake up and I feel like shit and I realize that I'm gonna have to deal with this bullshit. It. And then I'm very good at throwing myself into work. I don't know if that's a. If that's a healthy thing, but I definitely throw better than crack, I think so. It's way better than the crack doctors have recommended work is better than crack. But most.

[Scott Clary]

Who's the one that didn't? Who's the one doctor out there that said, you know what? Maybe the crack's the way to go.

[John Gafford]

I think I'm feeling, I think I'm following FTC advertising guidelines. I can't, I can't say 100% FDA, most.

[Scott Clary]

There's one doctor out there, Dr. J. That's who said. That's who says, yeah, the crack is better.

[John Gafford]

Yeah. I don't think I, I think that I throw myself into work and then after, like putting in. Because every day is always busy.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

After, after my day of busyness and when I'm like, sort of, you know, relaxing at night, which is just usually more emails, but it's relaxing to a degree to me, then I, then I start to map out, okay, what are the action items that I have to do to take care of this thing while still feeling a little bit stressed about it. But I would say first 48 hours is when I'm saying, okay, this is what has to happen. This is who I have to have a hard conversation with. And it is what it is, because I don't. I want to get the hard conversations done with asap. And it's. By the way, problems are usually not solved, but always include hard conversations.

[Scott Clary]

Always.

[John Gafford]

And I want to get those done asap, which means that I'm forcing myself to schedule the calls with the people that I have to have to get this problem solved or moved forward. And then you just get that flywheel going and then eventually it will eventually get solved and you will wake up and life will be fine.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah. But I've said many times the answer to a lot of your problems is on the other end of a hard phone call.

[John Gafford]

It always is.

[Scott Clary]

Always.

[John Gafford]

And by the way, most of your problems, I mean, this is, this is, this is not 100. True. But most of your problems are not always as bad as you think they are. And when you have those heart. So I don't know what you've gone through.

[Scott Clary]

No. No, dude. Well, here's my thing, bro. I'm always reminded if you're well traveled, if you are a well traveled human.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

If you're like, well traveled, like deep. And like, if you've been to like, Cairo, like the not so nice parts of Cairo.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

You and I, we don't have any real problems.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

Like, we have no real problems. Those people got real problems.

[John Gafford]

Yeah.

[Scott Clary]

You know, it's. It just depends on your person.

[John Gafford]

I think, I think a lot of the problems that we're fortunate to have and the people that listen to this podcast or have that the people that listen to this podcast have are very privileged problems.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

Like they're usually money problems. But it's not about not being able to put food on the table, not.

[Scott Clary]

About having to walk seven miles to.

[John Gafford]

Get fresh water, a deal falling through, or someone getting sued. Yeah, but like, to be able to even be in that position means that you figured out life to some degree.

[Scott Clary]

It's a blessing. It is. And only because I do want to talk about the importance, because I was talking about it last night with Kevin, like I told you. But I want to talk about the value of that mailing list, how to build it, why there's value. I think it's so important.

[John Gafford]

Let's talk about that. So I also agree with that, which is why I built a very large mailing list, because I didn't want to ever just rely on the platforms. Like, I know that that Instagram can be shut down overnight. YouTube can be shut down. All this stuff can be shut down overnight. If you don't own. If you don't own it. Right. So when I started creating content, it's not a super complicated strategy, but the CTA was always subscribed to the newsletter. So over the past six years, the Lincoln bio, the CTA, top of the show, notes every single YouTube video. And I've tried. I've tried, tried. We mentioned at the beginning, as a creator, I've tried to put out lots of different types of content. I've tried to see what works. Now I have a podcast. I used to put out like strategy and tutorial videos on YouTube. I've used to do like solo YouTube. So there's about 5,000 YouTube videos where the first line is, subscribe to newsletter.

[Scott Clary]

Scott, Declare cta right there.

[John Gafford]

CTA everything. So just making sure that you cross pollinate your audience repeatedly is very important. Meaning if you put out a podcast, you put out a YouTube video in the show, notes in the YouTube description link in bio is always email capture. And then you deliver value through the newsletter and then you promote the shit out of the newsletter.

[Scott Clary]

How often do you send the newsletter out?

[John Gafford]

Twice a week.

[Scott Clary]

Twice a week.

[John Gafford]

So holy. Hear me out. So I have one newsletter, then I have one like summary wrap up. So the newsletter is a newsletter and it talks about. And I'll.

[Scott Clary]

And the summaries are AI generated summaries of.

[John Gafford]

No, you're writing. No, no, no, it's not, it's not a summary that way. It's a summary as in, these are the podcasts that came out this week.

[Scott Clary]

Okay.

[John Gafford]

Links to the podcasts. I mean like, and if you have.

[Scott Clary]

Time to listen here Just check it out.

[John Gafford]

Exactly.

[Scott Clary]

Here's my biggest takeaways from this.

[John Gafford]

Exactly. Yeah, smart.

[Scott Clary]

Behind on that, dude. I'm behind.

[John Gafford]

It's fine.

[Scott Clary]

Gonna get caught up.

[John Gafford]

I have one more thought on this. So the newsletter, the subject. And so I have sort of two, two content flows. So my first content flow is podcast. And then we take the long form podcast and we clip it out into shorts and reels. And like I said, I put out a summary on, on on the weekend about the podcast that dropped that week and turns out the tweets and everything like that. But the second content flow is what leads to my midweek newsletter. So the topic that I choose to discuss in my midweek newsletter is the result of my second content flow. So the first one is podcast, podcast derivative pieces. The second content flow, which I think is a really smart strategy, which works very well for me, is I test a whole bunch of ideas on Twitter or threads. Doesn't matter. Like I'll put out 10 different. I'll tweet like 10 times a day. I'll at the end of the day I'll write out some ideas, I'll tweet them out, I'll see which one gets the most engagement and the one that gets the most engagement, I'll turn it into. If you look on my Instagram, there's little graphics with these tweets. I'll turn it into. I'll take that thought and I'll turn it into a solo episode on the podcast. I'll take that thought and I'll turn it into a newsletter as well. Because I know that if I test 10 ideas on Twitter a day, that's 50 tweets a week or plus minus. And I take out of all those ideas one gets the most engagement. I know that that idea for whatever reason resonates with, it's gonna have the most value. And then that's a super easy testing ground, all of your content. And then you take that and turn into long form written content. And that's. It does very well. So I mean, you also have to have, I think that there's a couple ideas there. First, yes, have a newsletter, Write a newsletter. But also how do you think through every week the content that there's going to be some certainty. You can't predict 100%, but some certainty that that content is going to resonate. Have a testing ground for your content too. And that's what I use Twitter for.

[Scott Clary]

What are you using to manage your newsletter? Just like mailchimp or using like high level. What are you using.

[John Gafford]

So, so, so I'm only pausing because I'm in the middle of transitioning the newsletter. So I was on Substack for a long time. Right now I'm moving my main newsletter to Kit convertkit. I know Nathan Berry, he's a really cool guy. He built a very. Built a great platform. And then now I'm actually hiring somebody to write a second newsletter on the creator economy, which I have not. Not started yet. And that's going to be hosted on a platform called Stan.

[Scott Clary]

Okay.

[John Gafford]

And Stan is like this is. This is not my products or anything. These are big, large companies that I use. So ConvertKit is a great newsletter system. I think like James Clear is on there who wrote Atomic Habits. I think Sahil Bloom, if you're a newsletter follower, he writes on there. And then Stan is. They also have newsletter sequencing, but they also have all these other tools for creators. They have like a. It's like a link in bio service where you can host your products and you can build community. So it accomplishes a lot of different things for creators as well. So Anyway, so yeah, ConvertKit is one, Stan is the other if you're looking for some creator tools. But cool.

[Scott Clary]

Yeah, there you go. Well, dude, man, just like that, an hour and 15 minutes has flown by. If they, if they want to find you, how do they find you, bro?

[John Gafford]

Easy. All the social is at Scott declaring and then you can go to successstorypodcast.com do a lot of the same stuff here.

[Scott Clary]

Well, I appreciate, man, when I'm Miami, I'll come through your studio. Anytime you're back in Vegas, you're always welcome back. So listen, if you just spent an hour and 15 minutes with this was hopefully you did. I gotta understand, dude, your personal brand is so important to everything you do in life and you have total control over it. Whether you choose to share your entire life, every second on Twitter, every second on this, start a podcast, whatever it is, is you gotta start doing it now. See you next time. What's up, everybody? Thanks for joining us for another episode of Escaping the Drift. Hope you got a bunch out of it, or at least as much as I did out of it. Anyway, if you want to learn more about the show, you can always go over to escapingthedrift.com you can join our mailing list. But do me a favor, if you wouldn't mind, throw up that five star review. Give us a share. Do something, man. We're here for you. Hopefully you'll be here for us. But anyway, in the meantime, we will see you at the next episode. If you know your party's extension, press or say 1. To leave a message in our company mailbox, press or say two. Spoiler alert. It will be full representative. Would you speak to your mother in that tone? Speak to a real human being.

[John Gafford]

You shouldn't.

[Scott Clary]

You wouldn't need to shout into the void to get your health insurance questions answered. Pacific Source Health Plans. This is a real person. How can I help you? Human service, not automated phone trees. Pacific Source Health Plans.