James Catledge (3:44)

Thanks for having me.

John Gafford (3:44)

Glad to be here. Full disclosure, I screwed up the first opening.

James Catledge (3:48)

That was.

John Gafford (3:48)

But that was word for word, almost exactly the same thing.

James Catledge (3:51)

Yeah, very good.

John Gafford (3:52)

See, I'm a pro here, James. I'm a pro.

James Catledge (3:53)

Yes, you are.

John Gafford (3:54)

That's how we do it. So let's back up, man. Obviously, you know, you've had quite the life.

James Catledge (3:59)

Yeah, I have.

John Gafford (4:00)

You've had quite the life. And yes, we're going to get to talk about some of the negative things, but I always, I always, I want to try to find some positive here. So obviously we talked about the show. The idea is helping people get to that next level. And I believe now, obviously you are a reformed gentleman. You're not somebody that is still looking to do anything that could be perceived as a negative world. Right. And you've got to. You don't reach the heights you reached. Because you reached a lot of those heights. Yeah, Perfectly fine.

James Catledge (4:27)

Yeah.

John Gafford (4:28)

Great business, doing wonderful things and there's a lot of good knowledge in there that you could use to help others. And I'm. And I love that that's what you're trying to do now.

James Catledge (4:35)

Yeah, right.

John Gafford (4:35)

I love that. So let's talk about. I always like to talk about nature versus nurture first, especially with high profile, very successful guests. So tell me about, tell me about young James. How'd you grow up? What made you you?

James Catledge (4:46)

It's a great question. I, on my podcast, interviewed my mother about a month ago and I learned some things from her perspective that was quite interesting. And I asked this exact question, what was it like raising two boys by yourself? Mom was a single mom and she, she gave me some insight that I guess you don't really remember who you are as a kid. You may have the memories, but who you were is not clear yet. And she said to me that as she went to go to work, I was assigned various chores and all sorts of duties around the house. We were raised in Tennessee and my dad had left the house by age 8 for me. My brother was 5. So I'm kind of the man of the house at age 8, I'm in charge of, you know, protecting mom, if you can imagine. And still scared of the dark at 8, still scared of the dark. Very scared of the dark. One of my jobs was to take the garbages out and I remember having this psychological battle with myself that the street was probably 100 yards from the house and the garbage are out back. Streetlights don't light up the backyard. There is no lighting in the backyard. And I've got to get 100 yards at age 8 with two garbage cans. And I'm certain that the woods in the forest is filled with people trying to kill me. I'm sure of it.

John Gafford (6:08)

Yeah.

James Catledge (6:08)

And so is I remember taking the garbage is down one specific time thinking, you know what, I don't like how this feels. I don't like the fear. The raw fear was overwhelming to me. When I got back in the house, I thought, you know what? No one else can take these garbages down. My mother won't do it. My five year old brother can't do it. He's physically not able to take them down. This is on me to do. And I remember having this thought, how do I personally not be so afraid, physically trembling, afraid, like talking to myself loudly the whole way, trying to make sure there is anybody out here they don't think I'm afraid, yeah. Because I'm having conversations out loud with myself, but I remember actually grabbing two knives out of the knife drawer. Sharp steak knives. And literally, you know how the garbage cans are. You got the handle there. I remember having knife in each hand as I grabbed the handles of the garbages and took them down. And I literally had the thoughts what I would do if someone came for me with those knives. Literally had the, the visceral plan in action. And I don't think I was ever afraid again to take the garbage down. And I took the knives a few more times.

John Gafford (7:28)

Yeah.

James Catledge (7:28)

Just to make sure I was ready. But as a boy, I remember having to overcome, personally solve that problem. And it for me was a real problem. I was the type of kid that when we come home from being maybe at church or being out to eat with my mother, she would have me go in the house first, I'm eight. And identify if there's any intruders before she comes in or before my little brother. And no one's more scared than me at 8, going in.

John Gafford (7:59)

Did you think mom liked the little brother more than you?

James Catledge (8:02)

Like, hey, well, he's five. He's not really in a position to do it.

John Gafford (8:05)

She's thinking, I don't have to run faster than the break in. I just got to run faster than my son.

James Catledge (8:10)

So this is. There was none of us that were brave enough to do it without fear. But I remember having these really visceral reactions to fear. And I didn't like it. I did not like how I felt. I felt weak. I felt consumed by it. And, and I didn't like myself for feeling that way. So I. I had to go through problem solving to not feel that way. And I think my life's been full of that problem solving, presented with something that no one else can fix but me.

John Gafford (8:38)

Well, I think, I think it's very interesting that even at a small age, you realized that, you know, sometimes just changing your physiology, your fit and you. Your physical world just by the act of holding those knives. Right. Just changed the whole process. And I think, I think if you're somebody out there that's struggling with fear of anything, I think you just got to find something. You got to find that knife to put under the hand of the garbage.

James Catledge (9:01)

That's right. That's right. You've got to overcome it. You got to solve it. I'll tell you one more on the same line of thinking. I was a Mormon missionary, which was a great privilege for me. At age 19, I was called to be a Missionary in Santa Rosa, California. And I remember feeling like such an imposter. This whole thing, you know, imposter syndrome, where people feel like they, they're not qualified for this, they certainly are not. Don't know enough to do this job, this task. Many entrepreneurs feel this way. And certainly as a Mormon missionary I'm called, I have the name tag, I've got the suits, but inside me, I am not up for this. I really don't know what's going to happen if someone opens the door. Okay, so luckily for me, when I arrived, you get a trainer. Okay. He's another 19 year old, but he's been there longer than you, so he supposedly knows what to do. Well, I had a pretty good trainer and I, I like him, I look up to him in a, in a way there was some admiration there from me to him. And he, when I got there, he had torn his ankle or had a sprained ankle or something. And we couldn't do our job for like three weeks. We're in this apartment and I'm basically spending three weeks telling him how good I am, if you can imagine. I, I'm literally talking myself up, talking my game up to him about how ready I am. And this is 100% brainwashing myself as I'm doing this. Well, the day comes, we, we've got the ankle better and we're going to have to find out what I can do and what I can't do. And your job as a Mormon missionary is to in many cases knock on doors. And if a stranger, the homeowner lives there, they open it and then you begin this very quick, weird exchange about religion and about Jesus Christ, which is so personal for everybody, including us, the Mormon missionaries. But, but it's happening on their doorstep with strangers. You're trying to get them to let you in. That's success. If they let you in, we can have a, there's a full blown discussion path funnel, if you will, that we're to take them down. Well, we get, we lock our bikes to the stop sign, we're walking the sidewalk and he basically outlines we're going to do this street, this street, and then the one behind and we're going home for lunch. And I'd been talking my, myself up to this guy pretty much non stop. He actually believes what I've been saying about my capacity. My capacity is not nothing. I am unproven. But I've talked it up. So I make a decision after locking the bikes that I'm going to step into this and Kind of own it. And I tell. His name is Meryl Taggart. Okay? Meryl Taggart is from Coeur d'alene, Idaho.

John Gafford (11:45)

Okay?

James Catledge (11:45)

And I. And I love country. I come to love Meryl Taggart from this experience. But I told EL Taggart, that's what we call each other. Let me take the first door. Now, this is all I can do to even say this out loud to him, but I feel I need to trap myself into this experience, and so I do. He says, are you sure? I don't mind showing you. Exactly. You know what? I said, no, I'm ready. I'm not ready. I'm filled with fear. Not the fear of the darkness in the forest. And I don't need knives, but, man, I need courage because I've now trapped myself, which, by the way, is a technique I've come to use throughout my life. Trap myself psychologically into victory. And so he says, this will be. This will be interesting. Let's do it. We walk to the first door. I'm praying to God on high, nobody's home. Please don't answer. Whatever. I'm even knocking softly. Please don't hear this in the back room. Don't answer the curtains. Move. I know they're in there. He knocks louder, like the cop.

John Gafford (12:49)

Knock.

James Catledge (12:50)

Now he's knocking, man. He. He wants them to open the door. He's prepared.

John Gafford (12:54)

Jesus is here.

James Catledge (12:55)

Yeah, right? The Jesus troops have arrived. So, literally, the lady opens with the lock, you know, the chain on, pulls it open. And I said, we are Mormon missionaries a long ways from home. This is literally what I said. We were more. This is not in the training. We are Mormon missionaries a long ways from home. And we'd love to tell you why we've come so far from home. And I just kind of left it like that.

John Gafford (13:22)

It's a solid opening.

James Catledge (13:23)

It's literally what I said. And she. I remember her slipping the chain, and I'm thinking, don't do it. Don't do it. Don't open that door. She opens the door and she says, why don't you guys come in? Would you like a drink of water? And now I'm relaxing a little bit. I'm calming down, and he kind of takes over, and he kind of does the thing, and he. He's so eloquent. He's so good. It looks. You'd think he's 50 years old. He's so good at this. Well, that was day one. Trap myself and do it. And then I felt comfortable doing the rest of the doors. And I Ended up having a fabulous mission. Great experience in leadership, accountability, responsibility. And it changed my life.

John Gafford (13:59)

You know, I never put it together. Chris Lee is a friend of mine and he had a massive home services build business that got sold out to, to private equity. And he's a Mormon guy from Utah. And I never put it together. He's like, oh yeah, dude. All I do is, all I do is recruit former Mormon missionary. Right. When they come off the missionary and I'm like, yes. Oh my gosh. I'm like, they're banging on doors trying to sell Jesus to strangers. To strangers. They got no problem asking about solar.

James Catledge (14:26)

No problem asking about solar.

John Gafford (14:28)

No problem.

James Catledge (14:28)

No, you've got nothing to sell that we would have a problem selling.

John Gafford (14:31)

Yeah. And he told me, he goes, literally, he goes. Every home services, building business across. They recruit from Utah. Like right from Utah, Absolutely. I can't believe I never put that together.

James Catledge (14:42)

Now one, one other thing you'll like about recruiting Mormon missionaries is we're trained at the age of 19 when folks are busy getting their first bar experience and getting their first tattoo, perhaps. And which piercing do I want next? We are trained in 9 o'clock accountability. At 9pm, we are to call our district leaders who are other 19 year olds like us, but somehow they're in charge. We're to call in our numbers, how many doors we knocked, how many discussions we gave, how many books of Mormon were handed out. We're literally measuring quantitative KPI activities. Yeah, it's KPIs 100%. And, and by the way, we have in our pocket what they call the daily planner. It's, it's, it's a physical calendar, not a, not a digital calendar. It's a physical calendar where we've marked all these units of activity that matter, high leverage activities that lead us to what we're after, which is baptisms, people joining the church. That's what we're after.

John Gafford (15:36)

Yeah, that's a, that's a conversion.

James Catledge (15:37)

That's it.

John Gafford (15:38)

Literally a conversion.

James Catledge (15:39)

Literally, Literally what we call it, how many converts? So we are calling in at night. We don't call in at 9:00. They call us. If they can't reach us, they drive their bicycles or their car over to find us. This is an army of 19 year olds who are accountable to a structure that ultimately reports back to Salt Lake City the quantitative activities done that day around the world on behalf of the church. So this is what we're doing for two years.

John Gafford (16:04)

Yeah. Guess what?

James Catledge (16:05)

They pay us nothing. Nothing. We, we actually pay for the experience.

John Gafford (16:09)

That's wild.

James Catledge (16:10)

Yeah. It was so good for me.

John Gafford (16:12)

No, so good. Anything that, look, whatever it may be, that teaches you that level of responsibility and dedication, young age, be it the military, be it that, be it anything.

James Catledge (16:23)

Yeah.

John Gafford (16:23)

I'm going to, I'm going to get behind. That's, that's good stuff. As a kid.

James Catledge (16:27)

Yeah.

John Gafford (16:28)

Let me, let's go backwards. And as a kid, because you said you didn't get paid for that. What was the first hustle you remember you did for money? What was the first way you got money?

James Catledge (16:36)

Yeah, yeah. That's such a good question. First of all, you think of the allowance and everything and what I had to do to get the allowance.

John Gafford (16:44)

That's easy money.

James Catledge (16:45)

I know.

John Gafford (16:46)

Outside money.

James Catledge (16:47)

I know. I would say fabricating my age to go work at a car wash where you literally drive the, at the end of the car wash, you drive the vehicles out, then take care of the wheels in the interior to get the tip and take the ticket. I was 14. Now you're not supposed to be driving cars at 14.

John Gafford (17:08)

You told him you were 16.

James Catledge (17:09)

16. Yeah, 16. And, and I, I just needed the money. I needed to earn my own money. Mom didn't have enough money.

John Gafford (17:15)

Yeah.

James Catledge (17:15)

For, for bills, much less. And I like nice clothes. I, I wanted to wear nice button down shirts. Izod was a popular brand when I was a kid. I wanted to wear the Izod and the polo. You know, my mom was Winnie the Pooh and tough skins.

John Gafford (17:29)

See, you know, that brings up an interesting point because they say that tough times breed strong men.

James Catledge (17:35)

Yeah.

John Gafford (17:36)

That build great times. And then great times build weak kids that build tough times.

James Catledge (17:41)

That's a fact.

John Gafford (17:42)

So obviously you, because you grew up single mom, you know, brother.

James Catledge (17:46)

Yeah.

John Gafford (17:47)

No money, hustling the car wash. 14 to buy what you want.

James Catledge (17:50)

Yeah.

John Gafford (17:50)

That instilled an internal sense of resilience with you. So how. So you had your kids pre fall.

James Catledge (17:57)

Right.

John Gafford (17:58)

Your kids, your kids were.

James Catledge (17:59)

All six were on the deck.

John Gafford (18:00)

All six were on deck. Like they were, they were living the high life.

James Catledge (18:04)

Airplanes, pilots, beach houses, the whole thing.

John Gafford (18:07)

The whole thing. So how did you, how do you not raise worthless kids?

James Catledge (18:12)

It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. And I don't, I don't, I can't say as I sit here that we did as good as we could. You know, I think looking back, there's some things we could have done even better. But I will say, and maybe it's through the tough experience that we live through together, they are more Resilient today because they went through it. It's. It's one thing to live in the 8 million dollar house and, and then move to the 10 million dollar house and then move to the 12 million dollar house. It's a whole nother thing to go from the eight million dollar house to the $500,000 apartment. Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole nother adjustment. And we did it slower than. I just said it. We did it slower, but we end up there.

John Gafford (18:56)

Yeah.

James Catledge (18:58)

And my kids had to make that adjustment. I'll just tell you a quick anecdotal story to that point. Six kids. Right. The youngest boy is Nathan. Okay. Nathan today is in college. He's in his sophomore year, wrapping it up at Brigham Young University. Nathan lived through the heart of the difficulty. My, my litigation with the United States government lasted from 2008 to 2018. So a decade of the children's life, which is most of it.

John Gafford (19:32)

Yeah.

James Catledge (19:34)

They, they only know dad under pressure. Right. Whatever pressure one processes when the United States of America is prosecuting you, whatever that pressure looks like and however you handle it, the kids are observing that. And my 18, somehow this 18 year old boy in the middle of all this becomes captain of his football team. Homecoming king. 4,000 students in the high school. Homecoming king. There's not 19 of these homecoming kings.

John Gafford (20:07)

Okay.

James Catledge (20:08)

There's one homecoming king.

John Gafford (20:09)

Yeah.

James Catledge (20:10)

He is the most kind, gentle young man. He. When I was inside, and maybe at some other time we'll get into how I get inside, but I'm inside a federal prison.

John Gafford (20:23)

Oh, we're going to get to it.

James Catledge (20:24)

Okay. We're going to get to it. Well, while I'm inside, this is the boy who arranged the kids to come visit. This is the boy who made sure everybody was in the car. This, this is the kid who watched his dad not only go through it, but maintain communication, clarity, love, support, and made sure everybody in the family knew how good dad was doing and how well dad was doing, how safe dad was, how everything was going well for dad and I. He, I wrote a blog inside. He's the one who published that blog. Each entry he published, so he had to read it, clean it up, type it and publish it. I think in an odd way Nathan's life got real. Real in a significant way. And I think it's blessed him. He is the most amazing. He'd been amazing interview. He's an amazing young man because of what he witnessed dad going through and how he managed it. Obviously he had to make choices to manage the way he did. But those choices he made, I think changed his life forever.

John Gafford (21:24)

Yeah. I think that, you know, obviously I didn't have the same situation you did, but my parents got divorced when I was very young. My father was an attorney in a very small Southern town.

James Catledge (21:33)

Yeah.

John Gafford (21:34)

Rule number one, if you're a woman in a small Southern town and your husband is attorney there, don't get divorced in that county. It's just a bad move. My father was not very generous with my mother and the divorce. So we still lived in, like, the ritziest neighborhood of my small town.

James Catledge (21:50)

Yeah.

John Gafford (21:50)

In North Florida. But we didn't have any money.

James Catledge (21:52)

Yes.

John Gafford (21:53)

We're broke. And so going from that situation where, you know, you're constantly having to try to keep up with everybody else and there's no way to do it because you're behind.

James Catledge (22:03)

Yeah.

John Gafford (22:04)

I think that much the same way it did for your kids. I think that burned my resiliency, and I think that's what made me.

James Catledge (22:10)

Yeah, I get it.

John Gafford (22:10)

That of my child. And I look back at my childhood very fondly. I don't.

James Catledge (22:14)

Me too.

John Gafford (22:14)

Nobody is one. Nobody. You know, you hear like, David Goggins and nobody is feeling bad for me.

James Catledge (22:19)

Yeah, exactly.

John Gafford (22:20)

But that. I think that. That less. That. That feeling of less than. And that feeling of left wanting.

James Catledge (22:28)

Yeah, right, right.

John Gafford (22:28)

Is what created that burning desire in me to get successful. So I think. I think that's good. And it's so tough when you are someone of success. I mean, it's the biggest fear we always have with our kids. And we're constantly trying to manufacture adversity for them.

James Catledge (22:43)

Yeah. And it is manufactured. Yeah, yeah.

John Gafford (22:45)

As much as we can manufacture. I mean, sports and all that stuff and everything we can manufacture, we're trying to. Desperately to do.

James Catledge (22:52)

Yeah.

John Gafford (22:52)

And, dude, my kids are great, but at the same time, when they were eight years old, they had a, you know, they had an opinion on the airline we were taking.

James Catledge (22:59)

Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. And then what seats were in. Yeah, yeah, right.

John Gafford (23:02)

You're like, whoa, did Delta. Why are we on Southwest Yeltsin.

James Catledge (23:06)

Yeah, yeah.

John Gafford (23:07)

And they had that. You know, we had a private jet for a while, and they. They had all that stuff. And. And I. I think they're still very well grounded because I think we do do the best we can with them. So let's. Let's somebody. Because you. You were very successful early, before your trouble.

James Catledge (23:22)

Yeah.

John Gafford (23:22)

So what was that? So you went into what field after. Because you went to byu, I'm assuming.

James Catledge (23:27)

Yeah, byu.

John Gafford (23:27)

Soccer with all soccer. Not a Big surprise.

James Catledge (23:30)

Yeah.

John Gafford (23:30)

Based on the story so far.

James Catledge (23:31)

Yeah. What's interesting and I'll, I'll get you to the first breakthrough for me. So I get home from my Mormon mission and all my buddies are headed to byu. They're all missionaries. These are my best friends on the planet. We've had this galvanizing experience together as missionaries and, and my friends from St. Louis. He drives down in his RX7 to Memphis to pick me up. We're loaded with clothes and footballs and shoes and we're headed out. He's been accepted to byu. I have not been accepted. My grades in high school were too low to be accepted. BYU. I'm like a 2.8 grade point average, but I know that's where I need to be. I need to be out there, you know, and, and hopefully while I'm out there, there's, there's a way to get in BYU where you're not full time day school, but literally your adult night school. And you kind of start there, get your GPA up and they'll accept you today school.

John Gafford (24:19)

Okay.

James Catledge (24:20)

No differentiation in the quality of the credits. It's just you're going to school at night. And that worked well for me because I need to work. So we get out there, I sit with my mother. It's time to leave. Brian has picked me up in the RX7. He's ready to leave. And I've not had a discussion about money. And I don't have any. Okay. My money's been spent on my mission and I. And I haven't been home long enough to have a job yet. I'm going to school. And so I asked my mom, I said, look, I'm going to school. I know you don't have much, but you have anything that, that I could get started with. She says, she says this. I'll never forget it. She says, I have $78 in my checking account. How much of it do you want? And so I know right then there'll be nothing. Yeah. And so I tell Brian, because we're planning on splitting gas money all the way out. You know how it goes. And then Brian's dad's a dentist, so he's got the apartment rented. I'm literally sleeping in an apartment paid for by my friend. I'm not accepted into this university. I am a total imposter.

John Gafford (25:35)

Yeah, come on, figure it out.

James Catledge (25:36)

Yeah, I got to figure it out now. And I don't have a car. It's his car. And so I know I need to be out There, though, man, I just knew I need to be there. I didn't need to be at home anymore. And so I literally, the next day, walk to the bus, get a bus route map. Back then we had help wanted ads and the thrifty nickel of the newspaper. So I look for jobs that I think I can do. And I. And for whatever reason, I'm broke and penniless, but I don't feel like I want to do a McDonald's or a taco Bell. Just. This is just me in my weird way of thinking. I want a professional job, right? And I'm broke. So I want to work at a radio station because for whatever reason, I think it would be a good disc jockey. And in my mind, coming from Memphis, Tennessee, there was a disc jockey that was so famous Rick D's that I think in my mind I could be a Rick D's. And so I want to work at a radio station. So I get the bus to Salt Lake City for an interview at the radio station. And the guy. The guy says, look, you know, you don't have any experience in broadcasting. Why don't we put you in sales? We have this long interview about sales. And I was a missionary, so this is kind of fitting my skill set.

John Gafford (26:50)

Yeah, you're like, okay, no problem. Show me the doors.

James Catledge (26:52)

Right? This guy is hiring me, basically. And I'm so excited because first of all, there's no salary, okay? The salespeople aren't paid salary. So this is not. You eat what you kill.

John Gafford (27:04)

Yeah, of course.

James Catledge (27:04)

This is a sales job.

John Gafford (27:05)

And nobody's telling you how much you can make either.

James Catledge (27:08)

No, no, there's no limit on what I can make. I eat what I kill. And. And I frankly like that because it. There's no limit on it, as you say. Yeah, well, he says, you got a car, right? This is the wrap up of the interview, man.

John Gafford (27:20)

Sure.

James Catledge (27:22)

I said, not yet. And he says, well, why don't you come back and see me when you get a car? And so I left that interview, get back on the bus, and I'm thinking, I got a job here. I got a job here. I have to get a car. So on the way back, I have the bus stop near Mountain Motors in Orem, Utah, on State Street. Now, I didn't know at the time I was headed to Mountain Motors, but when the bus stops, I see a used car dealership. This is where they have cars. So I need a car. I walk into Mountain Motors. This place is run by Persian businessmen. Okay. In Orem, Utah. I walk in and I said, look guys, I need a sales job to sell cars. And, and the guy says, let me introduce you to the sales manager. He introduced me. He says, what's your experience at car sales? I said, none, but I'm sure I can sell them. He says, well, okay, we're hiring sales guys. You know, by the way, most people are hiring sales guys. Yeah, word to the wise, most people are hiring sales guys. And I said, here's, here's the little caveat. I need to buy a car. So I need my commissions dedicated to the purchase of a used car. And I don't know what that means other than I need a car quick like, because I'm not going to sell cars. In my mind, I'm going to sell enough cars to get a car to go back and get the job that I think I've secured. Well, I'm there 30 days. I pick out a black Dodge GLH. I have $9,000 now in cash and a Dodge GLH that's paid for. Now they, the car was 1200 bucks. Okay? So we're talking about a nice car. And it's so loaded with dents down the side. It looks like they had a door opening contest with this vehicle because the entire side all went front and back panel in the same location. It's been jammed up a lot.

John Gafford (29:14)

Or as the, or as the used car manager at Truncali Nissan in Atlanta used to say, James Myrick, man, this car's been hit more times than Joe Louis.

James Catledge (29:21)

That's it. That's literally the situation with this car. And so I talked them into, for my, without additional pay, like they're gonna take care of this car. I said, I need a body shop to bang this thing out and paint it because this is ridiculous. So they get all that done. So I've got 9000 bucks and this 1200 car. And it looks good. Okay, I go back now this, this takes a month. I go back to that job. He goes, man, I didn't think we'd see you again. I'm glad you're back. I said, I've got an idea. I propose this. Now this is my first real hustle. I proposed to him that I'm going to be going to school at byu. Now I'm not even accepted into BYU yet, but in my mind that's where I'm going to be. I tell him, why don't you give me Utah county as my territory? Now Salt Lake City sits in one county, Salt Lake County. Utah County's on the Other side of the mountain range. The radio station is in Salt Lake. But I don't want to drive up there every day. I want to handle accounts in Utah county, where I'm going to go to school, where my apartment is. And he says, well, we got a guy down there. I said, what? What if I outsell him? Will you give me Utah County? He goes, well, you can both be in Utah County. I said, okay. He says, we also have some orphan accounts in Utah county that they no longer advertise with us. I'll give you that binder full of orphan account. And so what I did is I needed the history on how much they had spent and I built a chart who had spent the most over the longest period of time. Those would be the ones I would start with. And what I did, we had cassette recorders back then. I wrote the commercial before I do visit one. And I got the morning announcer who's famous on the radio, okay, Mark Van Wagner was the guy's name. I'll never forget this because no one knows I'm doing this and you're not really allowed to do this. I get him to record the copy as though it's a sold commercial. I haven't even visited the place yet to try to pitch it. But I want the commercial recorded by a good sounding disc jockey. I've written the copy, I like the copy. He likes the copy. He only people who ever approach the morning or afternoon drive car, people who have sold ads. Well, he's assuming these ads are sold. I don't have the discussion about where they are or aren't. I go down with my cassette recorder that I purchased play these ads and I'm getting people to say, wow, who produced that? I said, well, I had a morning God do it. And he said, we don't even have a contract with you. I said, not yet. I said, but I know if you see it the way I see it, you wouldn't want to do business with anybody else. Who else is writing your ads ahead of a relationship, you know? And so I end up having this Gene Harvey Chevrolet is my very first client down in American Ford Utah. And they're laying big bucks out for advertising. And it's, it's a, it's an orphan. Then I'm restoring all the orphans. So eventually I am. Eventually. It took six months. I'm the number one guy in Utah County. I go back to my guy and I said, my sales manager, all these names are coming to me, the memories of these fellows. And I said, look, I need My clothes dry cleaned. I don't have time to iron clothes. He says, he says, here's what you do. Go down and get a 50% cash, 50% trade count under dry cleaners. I said, okay. So basically all his ad dollars are half in trade, half in cash. He goes, exactly. They'll do it for 50% to be on the station. I said, what if I do it at my favorite restaurant? He says, okay, 50, 50. I said, what if I do it at the gas station? So I am now he greenlit because.

John Gafford (32:55)

Isn'T that kind of. Yeah, but he greenlit. You taking revenue from the station.

James Catledge (32:59)

Not only revenue from the station, but now the other guy in Utah County's got dry clean. He's asking me, I'm half his age. He's asking where the dry cleaner is. He's asking where the gas station is. There's one gas station that we got to deal with and the restaurants. I ended up two or three great restaurants. So I am now living, but seems like a six figure, multi six figured income.

John Gafford (33:18)

Yeah, because every trade. Because everything's half price. Sure.

James Catledge (33:21)

Yeah, that's right. And I'm earning commissions off the accounts that I'm selling. Full blowout. So I would say that's my first real hustle because I figured out how their business model worked and I figured that there's an opportunity here within this. Now I'm going to give you one more and then we can shift back to. You got great questions. I don't want to miss any of them. One more experience I had. So I'm selling these ads in Utah County. I go to Mako Auto Body. They fix, they do paint and they do body repairs. And this is the place I have my Dodge GLH fix. So I had a little time with the guys in there when they were fixing my Dodge, my door problem. And so I go into the GM of the place and I said, hey look, you guys aren't on the radio. You should be on the radio. He goes, be on the radio. He goes, he goes, what are the odds we're going to be on the radio and run into the guy who had an accident and that guy's going to happen to listen to the ad and bring it into Mako. That's, that's, that's not going to happen. And I said, okay. And it dawned on me when he said this, I said, what are you doing right now for customer? How do they find you now? Walk me through it. How do they find you right now? You've got leases, you've got employees, you've got this big building. I said, there's a lot of expense going on. Are you just hoping to God they find you and drive in here with a bus set up, car? He goes, kind of. I said, what if I could provide you a list weekly? No, I. I don't really know where I'm going to get this list yet. What if I could provide you a list weekly of everybody that's been in a car accident in Utah county weekly? He said, that'd be kind of right at the target of what we're looking for. I said, well, I don't want to talk too much about where I would get a list because I don't know, talk too much about where I get a list like this. But what kind of value is it to you? He goes, it'd be my whole ad budget. I said, I need to know a number. He said, well, I'd be willing to spend 5,6000amonth on something like that. I said, I wouldn't make this exclusive to you. There's other people who need a list like this. He said, 8,000amonth and you can't use it with other repair shops, body people. I said, For 8,000, I'll do it. Now my little brother who's living with me figured out James is making money. He's got dry cleaning. He goes out to live with me. I pay him 25 a week to go to every police substation in Utah county and just get the reports and print the reports and pay them if they need printed for the copies. I now have a binder. And my girlfriend is good with the Macintosh. She builds me. We make up the name in trust listing services. We literally build the list. Contact number. It's all in the police record. Yeah, the whole thing. I deliver it to him and I said, look, you can't have this without the eight grand. And I'm going to bring it to you every month. I'm going to bring you four times a month the list, but every month you pay me eight grand. And he says, I'll take this every month of the year, all year, every year. So I'm selling ads. But this little thing dawned to me by listening to this guy. I'm hearing this guy explain that you're hoping to hell that somebody walks in here, needs a thing. We know who gets in car accidents. We know who needs a car repaired. And so I built like an email for them that they could send out with a discount letting them know that, sorry to hear about the accident. We Take all the insurances and we're happy to bring you over in our town car to and from. If you've got a problem, we'll tow the vehicle. Nope. So basically I find out what he's willing to do. I write it in kind of an email for him to use for that list and we're hitting that list and he's got more business than he knows what to do with. I end up selling it to a personal injury guy and a chiropractor.

John Gafford (37:07)

See, I would have taken it one step further. Tell me my favorite technique in business anymore is I call it the Tony Soprano. Which is this. Which is if I want to build an auxiliary business on a bolt on to something that we do here.

James Catledge (37:21)

Sure.

John Gafford (37:21)

Right. I'm going to say, okay, cool, you can do this. And then I'll go get the best person I can to plug in that already has this existing business.

James Catledge (37:29)

Yeah, yeah.

John Gafford (37:30)

Then we flood them with customers and then at the end of six, seven months, I asked a very simple question. How much of your business is our business?

James Catledge (37:37)

Yeah.

John Gafford (37:38)

And when that number tips north of 50%. Well I'm going to be your partner now.

James Catledge (37:43)

Yeah.

John Gafford (37:43)

Right now we're partners. And that's how it's going to be. Because you know once you get somebody so dependent on that source of Business 100. They don't have a lot of choice. It's like, listen, I'll bring you more and we're going to do this. But we're partners now.

James Catledge (37:57)

Absolutely.

John Gafford (37:58)

That's how it works.

James Catledge (37:59)

This is Carnegie Rockefeller moving the fuel around the train car. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's the exact same deal.

John Gafford (38:03)

Oh my gosh. The men that built America might literally should be required. Required education.

James Catledge (38:09)

Reading the history book. You should watch those videos.

John Gafford (38:10)

Watch those videos. Built America for every kid in school.

James Catledge (38:13)

100.

John Gafford (38:13)

Absolutely.

James Catledge (38:14)

I can see them having that discussion right now. Carnegie's office.

John Gafford (38:17)

Yeah. Should be, should be. Absolutely. Well that, that's, that's great. How do you go from that? Yeah, right. Because you're making a million bucks at 27.

James Catledge (38:23)

I did make it a year. Not, not, not a millionaire multimillionaire, but million a year in cash flow. Yeah.

John Gafford (38:30)

How'd you get there?

James Catledge (38:31)

You want to take you from the radio station. Okay. So I end up staying in Provo, working my whole way through college. And I'm making, I'm driving a brand new Infiniti G20. I'm making good money in college. I'm a six figured guy in college. Okay. And college is boring beyond belief. I'm out earning the professors. And for whatever reason as a kid, that mattered to me. Like I've taken lessons from guys, I've, I'm out earning economically and they had such a jump start on me. I just, for whatever reason, in my little arrogant mind, that mattered to me. And so I end up getting offered a job by one of my advertising clients, Miracle Ear Hearing aids. Okay, so Miracle Ear is a franchise system. And the guy, the guy's name is Barry, he's spending lots of ads on our radio station. He Sundays, I own five locations in Las Vegas. He says, I would like you now, I'm 24, 23, 24, wrapping up my college. He says, I want you, if you'll do it, to manage all five locations. I said, I don't know anything about audiology or hearing or. I don't have any credentials in this. He said, this ain't about credentials, this is about selling hearing aids. I said, well, I'm not, I'm not interested in selling.

John Gafford (39:45)

Which have a massive markup.

James Catledge (39:47)

Yeah, they're huge, huge markup. I think our parts were 2 or 300 and we're selling about 18, 1900 per ear.

John Gafford (39:53)

Yeah.

James Catledge (39:54)

Because to hear again is pretty powerful.

John Gafford (39:56)

Of course.

James Catledge (39:56)

To hear again. So I said, just tell me where the licensing is on this stuff and do I need some type of medical credential? I mean, what are you talking about? Yeah, so basically he explains all this to me, drives me down, and everybody he's employed is like triple my age. Like these people are all like, could be my dad or granddad. And I'm thinking, do you want me to manage these people? I'm literally right out of college. He goes, no, you know more than they know about sales. He goes, absolutely. You need to be energy these people. I said, and you're going back to Salt Lake to run your franchises and I'm just loose down here with your people. He goes, exactly. So this guy put huge trust in me. I was already making, I think 130 was my last year in college. I made 130 plus I got his free trade. So it's almost like 200 grand in lifestyle. And so I need to make that.

John Gafford (40:45)

And what year is this?

James Catledge (40:46)

This is. Yeah. By the way, it's a while ago. 1991, I left BYU.

John Gafford (40:50)

Okay, so 91.

James Catledge (40:51)

91, yeah. So I moved down here to Las Vegas where we are and I take this job, I sign a one year agreement with him. He's giving me a bonus on every hearing aid, a six figured flat salary, 100 grand flat, 8333amonth. I remember the checks. 8333amonth. And then I want to say it's like 65 bucks on every hearing aid every year.

John Gafford (41:13)

Okay.

James Catledge (41:14)

So there's a huge incentive for me to go store to store, making sure hearing aids are getting sold. And how are you testing? How long is your testing taking? What are you saying? So I'm literally having these older fellows explain to me their process, which they didn't like. You know, it just seems too young to come at them like that. But I did understand the business dynamics of it and the business model. The other thing that helped me a lot is working in radio sales. I had to understand all these businesses and how they made their money and how they got their customers. I had to intuitively understand to write their ads, like, what is their customer? How do they get there? What are the dynamics? What are the profit margins on their products? I had to understand all that about all those businesses. And so in really weird way, without planning it, I end up becoming pretty knowledgeable about how businesses work.

John Gafford (41:58)

Well, you became probably an expert through the copywriting process of finding pain points.

James Catledge (42:03)

Yeah, Right.

John Gafford (42:04)

Being able to really provide quickly solutions to those pain points that were very.

James Catledge (42:08)

Appealing to them, they responded to. Yeah, yeah. And by the way, when you're spending.

John Gafford (42:12)

Money, that's what a great copywriter does.

James Catledge (42:14)

Yeah, that's exactly. And that's what I was. I was writing copy. And what ended up happening was the. The people who make the decision to spend money off the balance sheet is the owner of the business. Okay. There. There's rarely a staff member making a decision about how much we will spend of our balance sheet money in this discretionary way.

John Gafford (42:34)

Sure.

James Catledge (42:34)

I usually end up meeting with the person who it matters most to. This is not like delegating to someone else to spend someone else's money.

John Gafford (42:42)

Yeah.

James Catledge (42:43)

So I end up in these conversations, and they really, in a weird way, mentors all these business owners in a really shadow way, mentoring my young mind about how the world looks, how businesses should look, how they could look. Good businessman, bad businessman. I'm able to observe that quickly, transactionally. So when I moved down here, I understood the hearing aid business intuitively. I'd been writing this guy's ads forever, and he is a mentor to me, a friend and a mentor. I do it for one year. I'm really bored. I'm bored. I'm in Montgomery Wards, I'm in Sears. I mean, wherever our locations were, in a freestanding location. Over here in Tropicana and Pecos. And that's where my office was.

John Gafford (43:22)

It's. Dude, I could tell you, because I don't. I own an insurance agency that specializes in Medicare supplements.

James Catledge (43:27)

Okay.

John Gafford (43:27)

And when you're a young guy, when you're all. All you're doing every day is sitting with people that are 40 to 50 years older than you.

James Catledge (43:33)

Yeah, man. Tough. And they can't hear you.

John Gafford (43:37)

Yeah.

James Catledge (43:38)

And they can't hear you.

John Gafford (43:39)

They can't hear you.

James Catledge (43:40)

Right, exactly. So you're yelling. You're yelling all day. Yeah. And. And the wives always can hear, and the men usually cannot hear that. That was the other dynamic.

John Gafford (43:47)

I think that's by choice.

James Catledge (43:48)

That may. It may be something they worked out.

John Gafford (43:50)

Choice, right. What was it? There was an old couple on, like, so one of the late night cups, one of the late night shows, and they said, what's the secret to a long marriage? And he's like, what? He goes, I'm sorry. He goes, I can't hear very well. And she doesn't see very well. And he goes, I know what. What's the secret to a long marriage? He goes, I just told you. I don't see very well. And she can't. Or I can't hear very well and she can't see very well.

James Catledge (44:11)

It's the perfect combination. It's called chemistry.

John Gafford (44:13)

Yeah. She can't see me anymore and I can't hear charity.

James Catledge (44:17)

That's great.

John Gafford (44:18)

That's it.

James Catledge (44:18)

So I do that for a year. I'm attending church still in the Mormon faith. And my bishop is an insurance agent, general manager. He's like a GA general agent for an insurance agency. I don't know anything about insurance. It sounds like a scam. We didn't have any as a kid. My family didn't own any insurance. I don't quite understand the dynamics of paying premiums for 75 years and hoping that when you're gone, some strangers going to deliver a check to your family for a half million dollars. The whole thing sounded scammy to me, but I like this guy, this guy's mentor, really. This. This Mormon bishop. His name is Chris Zuckle. And I say that because a lot of people in this town know Chris. So he, as a bishop, says to me, james, you'd be very good at this. I don't know. I may have to hold my nose and jump in on this. And I. I don't know. I got a good gig where I'm at. He says, listen, we've got a proficiency test that the CEO of Beneficial Life has designed. Every agent has to take it. Just let me give you the proficiency test and it will tell us both whether you would be proficient at this. Strangest questions I've ever been asked. I mean, strange questions. So I go through this whole thing. He calls me, he submitted this thing. It takes a couple weeks to evaluate in Salt Lake City. They send it back. He says, let's get together. I want to go through your proficiency test. He says, listen, I've scored 60, 70 guys that have worked through the agency over the years never seen anything like it. I've never seen anything like it. Your score's off the charts. It's higher than mine by like 10 points. And he's, he's the boss of the agency. I said, well, what, what does that mean? Because I do not, at this point, the way you've explained insurance, I don't like it. So what does that mean, to have a high proficiency? It means you would make a fortune.

John Gafford (46:08)

No, you're built to sell it.

James Catledge (46:09)

You, you. Yeah, you're. Whatever's going on in you is dynamically designed for this.

John Gafford (46:14)

Sure.

James Catledge (46:14)

And I just believed him and I was flattered by the comments. And he took me under his wing, taught me estate planning seminars where he runs a, an ad in the local newspaper. Back in the day, if you were over 65, you read the newspaper and this flyers were for living for a free lunch. Yeah, yeah, come for a free lunch. And so I was pretty good public speaker. And, and, and he was very good because he's a bishop. He's very eloquent. And so I would sit there and take notes on his, how he did his one hour seminar. And then they would fill out a little lead card at the end. What was interesting to them, what they thought was they should do differently and could he contact them. He was a little lead card. I would gather up the lead cards, make them feel welcome, thank them for coming, and let them know I would be the one back in touch with them. That was my job in the relationship. I'm the one that runs all these people down, sets up appointments for the boss. So we do this for a year. And I think just on my split with him, I probably made 100 and a half. Just on the splits.

John Gafford (47:16)

Yeah.

James Catledge (47:16)

And I couldn't believe the money involved in financial services. I was, I was shocked because we've got a lawyer doing the living trust work. We're doing the estate planning work, which is basically life insurance planning and massive front end. First nine months, a lot of Money?

John Gafford (47:31)

Yeah, Massive front end commissions. Yeah, they small residual, but massive.

James Catledge (47:35)

Yeah, they pay almost the whole first year premium out.120 in some cases. Yes, yes. And so I'm not into that juice because he's the boss. I'm just an agent.

John Gafford (47:44)

Right, you're on the. You're on the. You're on the producers.

James Catledge (47:47)

Yeah, exactly. So I say to him, hey, look, I got a lot of guys from my mission that want to work with me. Ah. I said, is it possible for me to bring them to the agency? And I just need you to tell me what you make on me as a percentage. And then if you'll make that on them, if you'll disclose that to me, I'll split it with you. So your agency. It's not my agency. So I will train them. I will take full responsibility for training them. And I was a great trainer as a missionary, so I knew. I knew how to train people. And I've been doing this a year, so I've made enough money that I know how to teach this. I said, just give me half your split and, and I'll take care of the guys. So we do that. I hire five or six guys, make a lot of money. Now I'm making about 300 grand. We're. We're now three years into this, and I think I made 388 my last year with him.

John Gafford (48:40)

How many agents under you?

James Catledge (48:42)

Six.

John Gafford (48:42)

Just six?

James Catledge (48:43)

Yeah. Six.

John Gafford (48:44)

Dude. My guy Sean, Mikey came in here a couple weeks ago. He said he's in Miami, he's got a life insurance.

James Catledge (48:49)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Gafford (48:51)

Thousand.

James Catledge (48:51)

What's ffl?

John Gafford (48:52)

He's got a thousand agents?

James Catledge (48:53)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, A thousand. Well, we're gonna get there. We're thousand. We're have more than a thousand in a second.

John Gafford (48:59)

Okay. All right.

James Catledge (49:00)

All right. So just to give you an idea, with one company, one company, I made 59 million in commissions, okay? That's that. That. That's one company. GROSS commissions over 120 million paid to me personally.

John Gafford (49:15)

Yeah.

James Catledge (49:16)

When we look at the other now this, that those are commissions paid to me, not. Not some gross number. We now cut into that. That's. That's the number that's on the records with me. So I figure out with Chris splitting his number, that I'm good at this. I'm good at leading people. I'm good at teaching people. I can make complicated things, simple to understand intelligible. And so I tell Chris I want my own agency. Could you help set that up? I figure he's gonna get some juice on that. No, no is the answer. And so I don't know. That takes me months to figure out that he's not helping me, that he's working the back channel against me. So I call Beneficial Life the headquarter. I'm the number one guy in Beneficial Life.

John Gafford (50:00)

You say, I'm gonna bounce.

James Catledge (50:01)

And I said, I didn't even know to do that. I didn't even know to do that. I'm still Tennessee Mormon, missionary, loyal. I don't know this. Yeah, I'm an Eagle Scout. Yeah, I don't really know how to do that kind of stuff yet. So I. Yet I call them. And I said, look, I would like to have my own agency, and I'll move wherever. I'll move to the Midwest, I'll move northeast. Wherever you need me, I'll do it. And they said, well, Chris has to sign off on it. And we've been asking him for about nine months to sign off on you because you've been incredible general agent. We know you would be, James. I said, what do you mean he's got a sign off on it? You guys don't make that decision as a company. He said, we don't because he hired you. He brought you in, he gave you the proficiency test. He, in a weird way, owned you.

John Gafford (50:46)

Yeah.

James Catledge (50:47)

I said, well, I said, here's the deal. I said, if that's the case, I can just tell you now, my days are limited here. I'll find another way. And they said, we don't want to lose you. I said, well, then figure it out. Get Chris to do what he needs to do. So I go to Chris now, by the way, Chris and I are still friends. We had breakfast the other day. Chris and I are still very, very close. Yeah, I love Chris, but this is a. This is.

John Gafford (51:11)

Well, he's looking at it like it's.

James Catledge (51:12)

Business, and it is. It is. I totally respect his position here. Yeah. But. But this is a young, ambitious entrepreneur, and. And I promise you, if that's who you are, you can't let stuff like this stop you. You can't let this stuff get in the way.

John Gafford (51:28)

Yeah, but let me ask you a question in that situation, please. This is where Chris screwed up, Right? Would you have done a deal with Chris where you got to be a GA and paid him a 25 kick?

James Catledge (51:37)

Not 25. But I'd worked out a deal with him.

John Gafford (51:40)

Yeah. And you've been happy to do it easier. You'd have been happy to do it happy.

James Catledge (51:43)

Been easier for me to do that. I'M married now. I just got married at this time. At the same. And she didn't want me to leave. I'd have stayed.

John Gafford (51:50)

Yeah, but my, but my, my point.

James Catledge (51:52)

Is like, dude, you can't cut the deal.

John Gafford (51:56)

You can't be greedy. Like, you don't, you don't get to keep it like here. Over the years, we've, we've, we have amazing people that work at our company. Right. And we've had. Over the years, some people split off and want to go do their own thing.

James Catledge (52:06)

Yeah.

John Gafford (52:07)

To go open their own company. Like, man, I wish you well. It's hard. Yes, it's really hard. But I wish you well because that's the nature of the business. And I think if you start trying to, you know. You know, I always ask, people want to leave, here I go, I go, is it about money or is it about a dream?

James Catledge (52:24)

Yeah.

John Gafford (52:25)

And if they say it's about money, I go, then don't do it.

James Catledge (52:28)

You're stupid.

John Gafford (52:29)

Like, like it's going to be really hard to make money doing this in this economy. If it's about a dream. If you've always had a dream to own your own shop.

James Catledge (52:36)

Yeah.

John Gafford (52:36)

Go do it.

James Catledge (52:36)

Yeah. And you're relentless.

John Gafford (52:37)

Go do it.

James Catledge (52:38)

Yeah, go do it.

John Gafford (52:39)

Anyway, sorry, back to your story.

James Catledge (52:40)

No, no, no, that, that's, that's right.

John Gafford (52:42)

But you're crush. You get your own agency eventually.

James Catledge (52:44)

Well, here's what I do. I. I let Chris know. We, we. You either cut me loose or I leave. One way or the other, you know, I'm leaving anyway. And he says, I just can't do it. So I did the hard thing. I went and found a office to lease. I take the receptionist who's at Chris's office with me. Elizabeth, she's my receptionist. She's been processing my apps, doing my paperwork. So if I leave, she leaves. My six guys leave. I tell my wife, we need desks in this empty cavernous space that I've rented. Need one for Elizabeth. I need one for me and the six guys. So we buy Office Depot desks that you have to assemble. My wife spends a weekend assembling desk with an Allen wrench. Those desks get all set up. We're now running an agency. I don't have a contract yet. I have a logo. I have a brand. I do not have a contract yet. So a guy that I really admired who worked for Chris and had left maybe a year prior, went out on his own. I go have lunch with him. His name's Scott. You may Know this guy? Scott Childress is his last name.

John Gafford (53:56)

Name's familiar.

James Catledge (53:56)

Scott Childress was a baseball player for the California Angels Rebels. California Angels. And then he's at Zucker's agency and he's very good. Okay, Very good. So I said to Chris, I need a contract. Who are you using? He says, oh, I've got your contract. I know what you need to do. I said, tell me, tell me what you're doing. And I'm. At this point, I don't just follow people around at this point in my life. I've seen enough, been without enough. I keep my own company. That makes sense. I take data very rarely and moved if I'm. If I'm headed in a direction, it's hard to move me. So I'm basically investigating Scott's idea. But I do need a contract. And so he says, listen, I'm with a company out of Atlanta, Georgia called the World Marketing Alliance. I said, never heard of him. But it sounds real cheesy. That's what I said, World Marketing Alliance. I said, it sounds like Amway. What? What are you talking about? And nothing's more disgusting to me in my mind at this age that some type of MLM stuff, okay? I'm a licensed guy. I. I'm professional in my head. Dry cleaning, okay?

John Gafford (55:15)

So in my mid-90s, that was, that was the way of the business. Primerica. That was the way the business, it's.

James Catledge (55:20)

All over the place. And, and I'm disgusted by the idea of it. And this is just my little arrogant way of thinking, okay? It's not right. It's just the way I'm thinking, okay? So he says, world Market alliance, you'll have your own contract with all the carriers. We've got lots of technology, lots of tools, lots of software. And I'm thinking, okay, that sounds great.

John Gafford (55:39)

Split.

James Catledge (55:39)

Yep. Yeah. And I said, I did ask him, I said, how much do you make on my efforts? He goes, well, if you do nothing, I make nothing. But if you succeed, you'd be a first generation manager to me. And he says, the great thing, James, is you can build your own journal agents. And I thought, okay, that means I'd never lose a James Catlitch. If I find one, I don't have to lose him for his ambition. He can stay. And so that was very appealing to me, the idea that I could hire someone with my mindset, my skillset, and they'd never leave. And so I go on. It takes me about eight years, but inside that culture, that's where I made $59 million with that one company.

John Gafford (56:23)

Okay.

James Catledge (56:23)

Okay. Now, if you want to know how it ramps up now, I.

John Gafford (56:27)

Why we can't. We're going to run out of time. We got to skip ahead here. So you're making a truckload of money with insurance.

James Catledge (56:32)

Truckload of money.

John Gafford (56:33)

Truckload of money. Everything's fine.

James Catledge (56:35)

I'm going to make it a truckload of money.

John Gafford (56:36)

We got to get to. We got to get to it.

James Catledge (56:38)

Okay.

John Gafford (56:39)

How do you go from your. You're so incredibly. You're killing it in insurance. You're crushing in insurance.

James Catledge (56:45)

Yep.

John Gafford (56:46)

How do we wake up?

James Catledge (56:47)

I'll tell you.

John Gafford (56:48)

In a Ponzi scheme.

James Catledge (56:49)

We didn't just wake up in a Ponzi scheme. And it was not a Ponzi scheme. Although that is the. The journalist view of this. Here's what happened. World Market alliance is sold. My mentor, Hubert Humphrey, sells it to Aegon, a publicly traded company. I stay around one more year. We rename the company World Financial Group. I leave. Better name I. Yeah, definitely. We leave. I leave World Financial group, take about 300 guys with me. They write me a check for several million dollars because they're going to keep the rest of my guys. And now I sign a non circumvention on the rest of my guys. I'm not going to take them. But I do have 325 that left with me. I start my own company. I now go get my own contracts. Aegon provides me with one of my contracts, by the way, and I end up recruiting 8,000 agents. Not direct, but through. Through my organization of 8,000. License. License. Guys. We are selling. You just cannot imagine the volume of transactions that are happening.

John Gafford (57:47)

But how do you go from there?

James Catledge (57:49)

I'm getting there. I'm getting there. I have a real estate, everybody. This is back when your housekeeper owned three rental properties. Okay, sure. Okay. We all remember this, right? Everybody owned rental properties. We have no real estate to offer inside our portfolio. None. We're insurance. We're annuities, mutual funds. There's no real estate. It seemed like an omission. So I tasked my CFO to go find us real estate. I don't want everybody to be with Century 21. It's a conflict. It doesn't make sense to get them all real estate license. We could lose half our guys. I said, find us an opportunity to offer real estate to our clients so that we have that in the quiver. He brings me a father, son developer team out of the Dominican Republic. They pitch us on their existing hotel operation. They want to turn into a timeshare operation. Now they're going to leverage their existing paid for hotel, they're going to create timeshare fractional interest in it while they build out a new property. And then we're going to leverage fraction that one and build out a new property. So we're going to build three properties. The brand we're operating under is Maxim. You know, the men's magazine Maxim. This is our partner in branding. This is just the real estate side of my business. Okay. My guys are offering a anywhere from 15,000 to $300,000 condominium fractional interest in the Dominican Republic on the ocean called the Maxim Bungalows. So if you're googling this, Google, Maxim Bungalows, Dominican Republic, that's our property for five years. We sell $180 million worth of condominiums on the ocean in the Dominican Republic. In the sixth year, my partner and we all. Money's flowing beautifully. I'm paid, company's paid. My, my clients are being paid every. Everybody's winning in the sixth year is 2006. 7. The world's turning upside down economically.

John Gafford (59:54)

Yeah.

James Catledge (59:55)

Okay. Vegas specifically. Money is less available. People don't have 401ks IRAs. They're. They're being depleted. There's less money to borrow, less liquidity in the market. My partner says, you've got to increase cash flow here so we can finish this third property. I said, what do you mean? We're selling these units and you're, you're basically taking the money assigned to room 101 and building it. What do you mean we need to increase the capital? He says, I'm telling you, Catledge, that's the way he spoke to me. I'm telling you, catless father, son, you've got to increase cash flow or we have a problem. I said, well, what could be the problem? We've got two finished hotels that are paid for. We're in the middle of the third. Cash flows, type it. We're selling the units as we go. The clients have contracts. And by the way, the largest law firm in the world, Greenberg Taurig, is paper and all this stuff. So this is all vetted. Everything's legit. There's no, there's no schemes.

John Gafford (60:54)

Yeah.

James Catledge (60:55)

That I'm aware of. He says, we're going to run out of cash flow and I'm not worried about you and I'm not worried about your people. I'm worried about the clients. I said, well, you have to pay the clients. They bought the units, so it's not constructed yet. You have to pay them their dividend that they're due until the thing's constructed. He says, we're not going to be able to do that. So my clients don't know anything about the Dominican Republic except for me leading them there. Sure, they, they couldn't find it on a map except we took them there and we did take them all there and they're all going there to do the transaction. I meet with the largest law firm in Nevada here, who is my lawyer for my company and my business dealings. Lionel Sawyer and Collins is my firm right downtown Vegas here. My attorney says to me, I'm concerned your partners are not using the money the way you think they are.

John Gafford (61:49)

Yeah.

James Catledge (61:50)

I said, well, what's your legal advice? He said, I want to meet with their attorney here in my office. We bring him up from Santa Monica. They meet together. At the end of that meeting, my guy comes to me, says, I'm so glad we got that on the record. I made lots of notes. You're involved in a crime, an ongoing crime. He says, I've got all the notes on it. The guy basically explained that they're taking new money and using it to pay old obligations. That is the definition of a Ponzi scheme. I said, okay, so what do we do? He says, you need to sue them and get a receiver appointed to the property so they don't further diminution the damage to your clients. So I do. I pay $1.3 million to a law firm in Miami, Florida that my attorney helped me select to sue in the Turks, Dominican Republic and Canada, where these guys are from. In federal court in Miami, I spend 1.3 million 644 clients are in this lawsuit. We're all plaintiffs. My salespeople are in this thing because we all own these units too. My wife and I, my mother, all of our friends, we're all in this stuff. We own these condos. The judge says after nine months of pre litigation in the court, pretrial stuff, he says, I'm closing the resorts, returning them back to the bank and you guys need to sue separately. The salespeople and the developer don't just sue the developer, you. The judge instructs my 644 plaintiffs to put the target on their salesperson, which is not me necessarily, but I'm running the company and then name the company. So I now have 644 potential lawsuits. Individual plaintiffs who have a claim that a judge has suggested they have. So this turns into a nightmare. Sec, irs, Department of Justice. All the windbreakers decide they need to take a look because the judge has suggested this. They take a look. I tell the FBI. I meet with the FBI, and I let the FBI know, hey, listen, I'm available for as long as you need to meet. So you understand everything that's going here on here, the moves I've made, the moves my people have made. So you understand the products we sell. I'm available for whatever you need. We meet for 14 hours against the counsel of my lawyer. He said, he says don't. Don't ever meet with them. Don't ever meet with them because they. They will figure out how to create a case if they don't have one yet. But I just felt like they needed to know how it was all working. I just felt like aiming the missiles at me would be inappropriate and certainly disproportionate to what really happened. And so I wanted to be helpful. Well, I didn't understand that cooperation means you've got to say you did something wrong. Confession, it means you, yeah, you have to say you did something wrong, and then we charge you, and then we go lenient on you while you help us get the other guy. I said, I will never do that. You're talking to the wrong guy. I have nothing to confess. I have nothing to admit to. There is not an email. There is not a BlackBerry, there's not a text message. There's never been a smoke filled room. And, oh, by the way, if you think I'm the dummy, you think we got in a room and decided to split the dough and I would take 20% and he would get 80. You met the other guy. You think I'm the 20 guy?

John Gafford (65:26)

Yeah.

James Catledge (65:27)

Okay, so this is the discussion I'm having with the authorities. And I said, look, I was paid pure commissions. That's all I've always been paid. My guys were paid pure commissions. My clients were paid the returns they were promised, all by paperwork, by lawyers. I will never admit to something I did not do under any circumstance. Well, seven years into the tenderization of the United States government, the process, my attorney convinces me that the crime that they will likely convict me of is worth 28 years in a federal prison. Yikes. So you can either find a way to find something you did wrong that is a crime so that we can plead guilty to it, or we go in and hope we don't gamble on 28, 28 years. And. And I said I did nothing wrong. There's no evidence. I know what went down. There's plenty of I own this stuff. I own this. I have contracts where I put my money in this stuff. My mother's in this stuff. There's. If this is about facts, if this is about truth, there's no case. If it's about anything else, they could probably win. If it's about a narrative, if it's about rich guy versus poor guy, I'm going to lose on the rich guy gamble. He says, well, let's face it, James, you got all your money. You were paid 36 million directly. 36. These folks may live in a cardboard box now. You're going to put 13 of them up on the stand with Kleenexes, you got an airplane with pilots. You're handicap's five, you've played Augusta national, you've been all over the world. So it's going to be hard for a jury to believe you didn't know something that you didn't know even if you were willfully blind. That's a crime. So we get into all that and in the end, two weeks before trial, my attorney says, let me go negotiate a deal for you. You, you must let. Don't be delusional here. Don't be arrogant. Don't be delusional. And I'm telling your audience, I'm telling you right now, I don't care how smart you are, how sharp you are, how clear you are. I want you to understand you can be convicted of a crime tomorrow afternoon if it's the government's wish to do so. So don't be arrogant, don't be, don't be thinking you shouldn't have gotten in, shouldn't have got yourself into something. There's nothing to get into here except real business. Okay? And everybody that's in real business could be taken down tomorrow aftern if, if they're arrogant enough to be. So want to do it. Yeah. It's all about what they would like to do in the narrative they can create with a jury and my attorney.

John Gafford (68:13)

So what did the jury end up giving you or what gender?

James Catledge (68:16)

I didn't end up going. I was convinced by my lawyer to plead guilty to one count of mail.

John Gafford (68:20)

Fraud, which was how long.

James Catledge (68:24)

I pled guilty to a five year cap, meaning no matter what the judge says, I cannot be sentenced to more than five years. So that's what I agreed to. And mail fraud has up to 20 years in the statute. But I wasn't going to be open ended in my plea.

John Gafford (68:42)

No.

James Catledge (68:42)

I pled to a cap of 60 months and I went in and told the judge That I felt horrible about what had happened. This is called your elocution. Horrible about what happened. I had no intention whatsoever to harm anybody. I didn't need to harm anybody. There's no motivation for me to harm anybody. I would have made more money had the project continued forward with no harm. But we find ourselves in a situation where responsibility has to be taken. I'm willing to take it. I'm willing to do time on it. And so I pled guilty to one count of mail fraud and allowed myself to be sentenced to 60 months in a federal prison. And I was very blessed.

John Gafford (69:28)

What happened to your personal finances? Did they come get. Do they attack your person?

James Catledge (69:32)

They don't come get them. You use them to defend yourself. You end up in eight years with no cash flow living.

John Gafford (69:43)

Did they hit you for restitution on all this?

James Catledge (69:45)

Sure, sure. Yeah. I have a restitution agreement which I honor with the US Government, which is a manageable situation which anybody that's got restitution, it can be structured where it's managed. And I. And I have one and I honor it. But I did 14 months is the bottom line. That's what I want to get to. I did 14 months inside. And I will be honest if I compare my mission to those 14 months. Those 14 months changed my life forever. The guy I am right here today could not. I like me today.

John Gafford (70:20)

Yeah.

James Catledge (70:20)

Okay. Now like me then, too. I was a happy guy. You meet me then, you'd like me then. But I have a depth of compassion and sensitivity that simply was turned off prior to going inside. I don't know when it got turned off. Maybe got turned off as a kid when dad pulled out, but it got turned back on inside. And I was able to help a lot of guys. They changed my life. I made a difference. I had influence on the yard. And you lead wherever you go, by the way. I don't care if you're inside. Outside leaders lead. And my life is. I am friends today with a fraternity of brothers. Some guilty, some not. Most are and it doesn't matter. Inside, it doesn't matter. And that fraternity to this day is important to me. They'll call out of nowhere and I'm there for them. And I would never met these men. I've never been in their neighborhoods. I'd never known them. And many very high net worth, very successful entrepreneurs. Also inside that there's a lot to learn.

John Gafford (71:29)

So, so, so what's the focus now?

James Catledge (71:33)

Well, I'm a consultant today in the very space that I had all my Success in I helped several local financial services firms and then some that are national. I've developed a piece of technology that's quite profitable. Subscription based model that scores clients on their retirement readiness and tax efficiency. AI based subscription model for financial planners so that they've got my brain in every appointment. So if they're sitting with someone and they're maybe new or maybe have a lot of experience, it literally the AI is was inferenced on me. It was trained on me and how I would handle an appointment, what I would do, what I'm looking at, the questions I would ask.

John Gafford (72:12)

Yeah.

James Catledge (72:12)

So that's what I'm doing today.

John Gafford (72:14)

That's what you're doing today. When you, when all of us kind of came down. Right. And obviously your whole life changes in an instant.

James Catledge (72:23)

Yeah.

John Gafford (72:23)

It goes the other way. You know a lot of the people that you, you know, you thought you were doing right. But I mean dude, I have a similar look. I don't have 100 email and dollar problem.

James Catledge (72:32)

Sure.

John Gafford (72:33)

But I had a million dollar problem.

James Catledge (72:34)

Yeah.

John Gafford (72:35)

Where I, I had taken money from my friends and family and people that I knew. An investment, investment in something that it wound up not being what it was.

James Catledge (72:42)

Yeah.

John Gafford (72:43)

And I end up having to pay it. I paid it all back because I didn't want to have that. Luckily. I mean look, a million dollar hill is $180 million. A lot different than a million.

James Catledge (72:52)

Yeah.

John Gafford (72:53)

And since then, you know like some. I have a friend of mine that's doing a very good business right now. He's got a very good business model. It's very smart, it's very sharp. And I was going to try. I was supposed to get in as an investor to it prior to them doing a series B fund raise. The problem was the valuation that I was granted would have, would have not been the valuation series B was, was being offered at. And it screwed the deal up a little bit. And that's fine. I get it. Attorneys get in the way of things all the time. But you know, he hit me up now, came back and was like hey, and this is a good friend of mine. I believe in this business, it's a good business. But he said hey, you know, could you, could you put it out to your people and see if anybody wants part of the series B. And I just, my response was bro, I can't do that because I will never again raise money for anything that I don't have total control.

James Catledge (73:40)

I totally agree. I just want to wise position to take.

John Gafford (73:44)

Yeah. And I love him and I love the business I was going to invest in, his. Fine, but I just won't do it.

James Catledge (73:48)

Totally. I was nice because of this. I was naive to many things there, and I'm not blaming anything that went on to naivete, but I did not know enough about cash controls on a real estate venture to be that deeply involved. I was the. I was basically their sole source of capital. And we were very proficient at our part of it, but I. Too proficient to not know enough about the other side. I just didn't know enough about the other side.

John Gafford (74:14)

I think, too, if you look at that time. If you look at that time, because I was in real estate at that time, and you look at how fast everything.

James Catledge (74:21)

It turned upside down.

John Gafford (74:22)

Everything was going so fast.

James Catledge (74:23)

Yes. Yes.

John Gafford (74:25)

You know, I mean, no income loans and nothing was getting vetted. People just in a deal and just.

James Catledge (74:30)

Just. Yes.

John Gafford (74:31)

Hey, I just made 50 grand on this house, so let's just buy that one. It's just everything was going so fast.

James Catledge (74:35)

Correct.

John Gafford (74:36)

On every.

James Catledge (74:37)

That's the era.

John Gafford (74:37)

Every scale you look at.

James Catledge (74:38)

Yes.

John Gafford (74:39)

You look at. You know, I. At the time, during that boom time, right when I first got in real estate, I was selling. There was a company here in town called sunvest that was doing.

James Catledge (74:48)

Oh, I know. Sun.

John Gafford (74:49)

Condo conversions.

James Catledge (74:49)

Sure.

John Gafford (74:50)

All across the country.

James Catledge (74:51)

Yeah.

John Gafford (74:51)

And we would just go to these real estate shows in, like, San Francisco and just stand in front of the room and then just literally present five projects and then sell 200 condos.

James Catledge (75:00)

Absolutely.

John Gafford (75:00)

Like 300 grand.

James Catledge (75:01)

Funding's everywhere.

John Gafford (75:02)

And then two years later.

James Catledge (75:04)

Yeah.

John Gafford (75:04)

I'm sitting in Vegas selling those units that I was selling for $350,000. I'm selling them as foreclosures for 40 grand. 30 grand. It was crazy. And it just, you know, so. So look, I'm not going to. I'm not going to fault you for going as fast as all of us did at just a much bigger scale. Yeah, I just. I could. Because I was. Anybody that wants to throw stones, you. At that time. I was in the. Living it then.

James Catledge (75:28)

Yeah.

John Gafford (75:29)

We were all. We were all running, and that was.

James Catledge (75:30)

One of many things we were doing. We were still running the big financial services firm. This was a division of that.

John Gafford (75:35)

This was extra money.

James Catledge (75:37)

This was extra exhilarate. It was extra Good Lord. And. And we were good at it. They. They loved us. They. And you know what? I don't know how much it made me think, this goes on a lot. And we just don't know it as long as the project finishes. Nobody asked the questions See, I think skimming goes on a lot. I think of all these big buildings that get built. In my mind, I'm thinking there's probably guys like me that raise the funds to build these big structures. And the guys building it have everything padded and invoiced way beyond reality. And this thing's getting skimmed on the whole time. As long as it gets finished, nobody's got the questions.

John Gafford (76:10)

Rule number one of any construction project is never let your contractor get ahead of you financially. Ever.

James Catledge (76:17)

That's it.

John Gafford (76:17)

Ever let him get ahead of you?

James Catledge (76:18)

Yeah.

John Gafford (76:19)

I don't care if you're remodeling your. Your bathroom or you're building a high rise. You never let your contractors get ahead.

James Catledge (76:24)

That's exactly right.

John Gafford (76:25)

Ever. You're always building incrementally in arrears to the work that's getting done.

James Catledge (76:30)

Correct.

John Gafford (76:30)

The only thing you're ever fronting is materials.

James Catledge (76:32)

Exactly.

John Gafford (76:32)

That's it. So let me ask you one more question before we go. Just because I think this is something that a lot of people like. This whole story. Right. The thing that I think probably we didn't talk about, that I find that I want to understand is the reputational collateral, the damage that was taken. Great question, right? Like, how did. How do you deal.

James Catledge (76:55)

Yeah.

John Gafford (76:55)

With somebody at your heart that you feel like you're doing the right thing. You're just trying to do. Yes, yes. You're crushing. Yes, you're doing this. But everybody around you is making money. You feel like you're doing the right thing. And then all of a sudden I gotta believe. Especially in the circles that you're in with that tight net church community.

James Catledge (77:09)

Yeah, right.

John Gafford (77:09)

You are a pariah.

James Catledge (77:11)

Yeah, yeah. Let me deal with this. Because this was hard. This is such a great question.

John Gafford (77:15)

Gotta be hard.

James Catledge (77:15)

Great. This is a great question. Let me once. Once it's destroyed, and it doesn't take long to destroy it. You have to come to the. This is really important to get. You have to come to the reality that you didn't build your reputation. What you actually built was your character. And that's all you ever had control of. Ever. Anyway. And so I believe a lot of my rise, again, my second rise, if you will, my return, my restoration is tied to character. Because the people who knew me before, still with me today when I was released, I had hundreds of people that I know contact, even victims, people lost money that know I had nothing to do with it, come to me and say, you're starting over. Do it with me. You're starting over. Let's do it together. I know you need a break. Consider what I'm doing. All of these moments happened and I attribute it and I wouldn't have known it ahead of time, but I certainly wouldn't have planned for this to occur. But you realize that how you manage the difficult times will determine where you land when the storm clouds pass. Like either you grovel and become a sour puss and become a victim and become, this is, this is terrible. You should never done this to me. Government has taken me down a road I should never been on. Or you say, you know, I can't do anything about this. I've got to focus on the controllables. Control the controllables. What I can't control is how I treat people. What I can't control is how I manage this situation. What I can control is my spirit. My spirit cannot be taken. You can take everything from me, but you can't take my soul. I have to give that to you. Make some decisions in the difficulty that frankly are part of the chemistry that's already you. It just doesn't get tested until this moment. And it's in that testing you realize, you know what you can have the reputation. I'll take the character. Because with, with character, you got it all. You got it all. And you're totally at peace with who you are day and night and your friends who, who you're friendly with, the other friends who know you. It's not the guys who want to get in the plane. It's not the guys who want to get to Augusta, go to the super bowl with you because you're rich. It's the guys who love you, who know you, who could look you in the eye. You're their trustee on their family estate because they know who you are. So I think the lesson for me that I couldn't have learned unless I got to the backside of it is character is all that mattered.

John Gafford (79:48)

Anyway, I think we'll leave it at that. Man, if they want to find you, James, where do they find you?

James Catledge (79:53)

You know, I have a podcast, Inside out with James catledge. It's on YouTube, Pod, Apple, Spotify. The whole story is told there inside small bite sized increments. It's an honor to be with you today and I appreciate being a guest here.

John Gafford (80:04)

No, thanks for coming in, James. Well, listen, man, if you listen to that, I think there is a. There's definitely. I think that last question is the takeaway. Man, we talked about so much stuff today. But listen, life is going to give you ups and downs. And sometimes those are self created, sometimes they're not. But at the end of the day, you need to focus more on who you believe you are than who other people think you are. We'll see you next week. What's up everybody? Thanks for joining us for another episode of Escaping the Drift. Hope you got a bunch out of it, or at least as much as I did out of it. Anyway, if you want to learn more about the show, you can always go over to escaping the drift.com you can join our mailing list. But do me a favor, if you wouldn't mind, throw up that five star review. Give us a share. Do something, man. We're here for you. Hopefully you'll be here for us. But anyway, in the meantime, we will see you at the next episode.