Transforming Content into Conversions with Logan Forsyth

Summary

Podcast Summary: Escaping the Drift with John Gafford – Episode: "Transforming Content into Conversions with Logan Forsyth"

Release Date: August 6, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of "Escaping the Drift," host John Gafford engages in a comprehensive conversation with Logan Forsyth, the founder and Co-CEO of Media Scaling—the leading social media growth firm in the United States. The discussion delves deep into the intricacies of transforming social media content into tangible business conversions, exploring strategies, pitfalls, and best practices for building a robust online presence.

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Navigating the Sea of Social Media Gurus

John Gafford opens the conversation by addressing a common concern among aspiring marketers: discerning genuine expertise amidst a plethora of self-proclaimed gurus on social media. He asks Logan, “If I'm somebody that I don't know anything about this, but I wanted to get better. How do I discern? How do I figure out who's full of shit, who's for real?” (00:00).

Logan Forsyth emphasizes the importance of vetting any business by examining their results, case studies, and guarantees. He recommends:

• Reviewing Results and Case Studies: Ensure the service provider has tangible proof of success.
• Guarantees and Trial Periods: Opt for services that offer guarantees or trial periods to minimize risk.
• Research and Homework: Conduct thorough research to understand the provider's authenticity and effectiveness.

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Evolution of Social Media Strategies

John recounts his past experience with purchasing fake followers to achieve a verified status, leading to long-term challenges in cleaning his account (02:34). He inquires about the evolution of effective social media strategies over the past five years.

Logan Forsyth responds by highlighting the shift towards short-form content, a trend sparked by platforms like TikTok around late 2019 and early 2020. Key points include:

• Short-Form Content Dominance: Reels on Instagram and Shorts on YouTube have revolutionized content consumption, favoring the "For You" page over traditional following feeds.
• Organic Growth Opportunities: Short-form vertical videos now receive significant reach through non-follower exposure, making organic growth more attainable compared to five years ago.

He notes, “short form content gets the most favor on the platforms for that non follower reach” (04:00).

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Content Quality vs. Fake Followers

John discusses the pitfalls of acquiring fake followers, sharing his personal experience of having to purge fake accounts from his following (06:18). He questions whether starting anew is more effective for accounts plagued with fake followers.

Logan Forsyth counters by stating that starting fresh isn't necessarily better. The crux lies in content quality. He explains:

• Content is King: Regardless of follower count, producing high-quality, engaging content is paramount.
• Organic Growth Possibility: Accounts with fake followers can recover and grow organically by focusing on creating valuable content.
• Data-Driven Decisions: Emphasizes using data and experimenting with content types to determine what resonates most with the target audience.

He asserts, “But emphasis on content quality is always what's going to produce the most growth above all else” (07:00).

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Effective Content Strategies and Formats

The conversation shifts to the mechanics of successful short-form content. John draws parallels between effective content structures in music and social media, seeking Logan's insights on the "flow" of viral videos.

Logan Forsyth shares findings from analyzing thousands of viral videos, revealing consistent patterns:

• List-Based Formats: Videos often start with a number in the hook (e.g., “3 Common Mistakes”) followed by a step-by-step or list format, enhancing retention and engagement.
• Step-by-Step Framework: Such structures align with how audiences process information, akin to musical verses and choruses.

He underscores, “our brains are wired to just want to follow that format, the step by step process” (08:33).

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Funnel Strategies: VSLs and High-Ticket Sales

John probes into funnel strategies, referencing Gary Vee’s "Jab Jab Punch" model and seeking recommendations for effective funnel structures.

Logan Forsyth advocates for Video Sales Letter (VSL) funnels, especially for high-ticket items. Key recommendations include:

• VSL Best Practices:
  • Length: Keep under 20 minutes.
  • Structure: Utilize the problem-agitate-solution framework.
  • Proof Stacking: Incorporate testimonials and case studies.
  • Follow-Up: Implement email sequences and retargeting ads to maintain engagement and improve conversion rates.
• High-Ticket Focus: Emphasizes selling products priced at $5,000 or more to achieve substantial revenue growth.
• Trust Building Through Organic Content: Highlights the importance of building trust via organic content before driving high-ticket sales.

He notes, “high ticket being the core focus of the business” (13:16).

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Social Media Teams and Hiring Priorities

John inquires about the optimal sequence of hiring for a growing social media team.

Logan Forsyth outlines a strategic hiring roadmap:

1. Editor/Poster: The first hire should handle editing and posting content, allowing the creator to focus on producing content.
2. Content Capture Specialist: For brands producing vlog-style or dynamic content, hiring someone to capture B-roll or manage filming is essential.
3. Content Strategist/Manager: As the team expands, bringing on a strategist to manage content ideation, scripting, and team coordination becomes crucial.

He advises, “the next hire you make depends on your content strategy and also your filming setup” (30:35).

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AI in Content Strategy

John explores the role of AI in content creation, asking Logan for effective prompts to streamline content generation.

Logan Forsyth provides a detailed approach:

• Role Definition: Start by defining the AI's role, e.g., “You are the world's top social media strategist with experience generating billions of views.”
• Context Feeding: Supply the AI with comprehensive information about the business, including sales call transcripts, marketing materials, and offer details.
• Content Planning: Instruct the AI to develop a 30-day content strategy tailored to the ideal audience avatar, including multiple hooks per video for split testing.

He emphasizes, “you can use the prompt of your world's top social media strategist with experience generating billions of views” (35:21).

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Clipping and Content Repurposing

John discusses the rise of “clipping” services in social media management, seeking Logan’s perspective on their effectiveness.

Logan Forsyth explains:

• Definition and Utility: Clipping involves repurposing high-performing content across multiple sub-accounts to amplify reach.
• Conditions for Success: Effective only if the original content is already performing well (tens of thousands of views per video).
• Potential Pitfalls: Many clipping services are run by inexperienced individuals offering minimal results. It’s crucial to work with experienced providers to ensure success.

He notes, “If your content is already doing well, it’s the best thing you can do for your brand” (43:04).

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Trust and Vetting Social Media Services

Returning to the initial theme of distinguishing genuine services from unreliable ones, John reiterates the challenge of fake engagement and shares his frustrations with low-quality DMs selling dubious services.

Logan Forsyth advises:

• Vetting Practices: Similar to hiring employees, thoroughly assess potential service providers through:
  • Case Studies and Proof of Results.
  • Guarantees and Risk Mitigation Offers.
  • Trial Periods to Test Effectiveness.

He emphasizes, “do your research and homework” to ensure you’re partnering with reputable providers (45:32).

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Boosting Posts vs. Strategic Advertising

John seeks Logan’s take on the efficacy of boosting posts as a strategy for brand growth.

Logan Forsyth advises against using post boosting as a primary strategy, recommending instead:

• Conversion-Focused Ads: Employ skilled media buyers to run ads aimed at driving specific conversions rather than merely increasing views.
• Strategic Ad Investment: Focus on ads that contribute directly to business goals, such as lead generation or sales, rather than vanity metrics.

He states, “if you're going to run ads, then have an amazing media buyer who knows what they're doing and run ads to drive conversions” (47:04).

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Conclusion

John wraps up the episode by reinforcing the importance of intentionality and consistency in social media strategies. He shares his personal journey of focusing his content to sell books, noting the initial dip in engagement followed by a resurgence, and seeks Logan’s advice on maintaining follower retention during strategic shifts.

Logan Forsyth advises clarity in content creation, emphasizing the need to understand your target audience and maintain consistency in messaging. He recommends blending content types to cater to different segments of your audience and continually experimenting to find what resonates best.

Final takeaways include:

• Focus on Content Quality: Prioritize creating valuable, engaging content over chasing vanity metrics.
• Strategic Consistency: Maintain a consistent theme aligned with your core objectives to build and retain a dedicated audience.
• Continuous Experimentation: Regularly test new content strategies and adapt based on performance data.

John concludes by encouraging listeners to make good content and trusting that quality will attract the right audience.

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Notable Quotes:

• Logan Forsyth (06:50): “If you create a new account, but you're not creating content quality that people love and highly engage with, then it's still gonna go nowhere.”

• Logan Forsyth (08:33): “our brains are wired to just want to follow that format, the step by step process.”

• Logan Forsyth (13:16): “high ticket being the core focus of the business.”

• Logan Forsyth (35:21): “you can just game plan and go back and forth with it to tweak it to where you want it to go.”

• Logan Forsyth (43:04): “If your content is already doing well, it’s the best thing you can do for your brand.”

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Resources Mentioned:

• Media Scaling: www.mediascaling.com
• Media Scaling Secrets: mediascaling.com/secrets

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This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for individuals and businesses aiming to harness the power of social media for meaningful growth and conversions. Logan Forsyth's expertise provides actionable insights into content strategy, team building, and effective use of modern tools like AI, making it an invaluable resource for those looking to escape the drift and achieve remarkable success online.

Transcript

[John Gafford]

Well, I love that. I love what you just said because I was going to ask you. In this sea of DM to gurus can help you, whatever. If I'm. If I'm somebody that. I don't know anything about this, but I wanted. I want to get better. How do I discern? How do I figure out who's full of shit, who's for real? And now, Escaping the Drift, the show designed to get you from where you are to where you want to be. I'm John Gafford and I have a knack for getting extraordinary achievers to drop their secrets to help you on a path to greatness. So stop drifting along, Escape the Drift. And it's time to start right now. Back again, back again for another episode of. Like it says in the opening, man, the podcast that gets you from where you are to where you want to be. And today, people, if where you want to be is massive on the old interwebs, man, you want people to see and know who you are through your social media. This is a guy that can help you get there. This is a dude that. That is the founder and co CEO of Media Scaling. They're the number one social media growth firm in the United States, known for helping creators and brands explode their organic reach across all platforms. They have worked with giants of the industry, including Uncle Grant. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the program. This is Logan Forsyth. Logan, how are you, man?

[Logan Forsyth]

Amazing. It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me on.

[John Gafford]

Yeah, dude, where are you beaming in from today?

[Logan Forsyth]

Beaming in from la. Originally from Texas, but I've been out in Southern California for about five years now.

[John Gafford]

Okay, right on. So what got you into. Obviously you're somebody that's helped a lot of people build huge followings online. What got you into the biz?

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, I grew up in an era to where when I was still 17 years old, I started seeing people on social media talking about how to make money online and started getting served a lot of ads and started investing, you know, through courses on the credit card, started going to business events and just followed the process of how to make money online courses, they actually work many times if you put it into action. And I'm a product of that. It's cool to come full circle because a big part of the mission of what we do is working with the top thought leaders and people who are very, very good in whatever industry they're in and getting their content in front of as many people as possible. Because I know the value of it. I'm A product of it myself. And that's what got me into the space is make money online ads, talking about digital marketing skills, and went down the rabbit hole and never turned back.

[John Gafford]

So over the years, the growing Instagram accounts, growing social media accounts has evolved so quickly that quite frankly, it's kind of hard to know who's full of who's full of it and who's not. I can tell you that years and years and years ago, I went down a road with somebody that was referred to me by some very high level entrepreneurs that I like that said, no, no, no, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna get you verified. And back then when you couldn't just pay $9 to get verified, it was a process, right? Cause that blue check mark meant something. But we went through a very expensive, lengthy process to get that done. And I found that at that time they just kind of flooded my account with fake followers that at the end of that I spent years trying to clean those people out. So my question is, what have you seen as far as the evolution of what works in social from what was big five years ago? Why did that fail and where are we headed now?

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, yeah, sorry that happened. It's unfortunate, but that was a very common occurrence. From about 2017 to 2020, a lot of people were paying and selling for massive shout outs or fake followers came onto the scene and a lot of people bought it, looking at it as social proof, not knowing it's going to take their account. Unfortunately, it's very common and it's easy to spot if that happens nowadays. In terms of what's changed from five years ago to today on socials, I would say the biggest marker above all else is short form content. The TikTok ification of social media. Five years back, short form content, reels on Instagram, shorts on YouTube did not exist. That all came into the scene late 2019, early 2020, and that's completely changed the playing field. And since short form content has come out, every platform has become much more of a for you page rather than a following feed. Where now we're constantly served content based on our interests and demographics rather than just who we follow. And short form content gets the most favor on the platforms for that non follower reach. On any platform, when you post short form vertical video and you look at the insights, majority of the reach, 50% plus typically goes to non followers that are targeted based on interest and demographics. And that's made it almost easier in some ways to grow organically than it Used to be back five years ago.

[John Gafford]

Well, let me ask you this, because you do see this a lot, especially on TikTok, right? Like you'll see a video. It seems like when you first started the social media game, there was a lot more following. It was easy, easier to get followers because you put something good out that kind of hit. People followed you because they wanted to see more. I think people are a lot less likely to hit that follow button because you see some people, especially on TikTok, that have millions of views on one video, but they don't have hardly any followers. So where's the disconnect and how do you fix that?

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, there's a lot of variables that go into that. I would say the biggest thing is making sure that you're speaking to the right people. A lot of people are chasing views as the number one metric, and that's not always the metric that you want to chase. It's not something that should be ignored. But you need to take into account who you're speaking to in your content and pay attention to what circles is it going into. Are you getting DMs from the right people? Are you seeing people follow your account, who you want to follow you? And if you're not seeing those markers and you're just creating broad content to go broad and trying to get as many views as possible, then there's not going to be as much congruency and you're not going to get as many followers from the views that you're gaining. I think that's the most common piece that you see out of this.

[John Gafford]

Yeah. Let's say you have an account, you did one of those deals where you got a bunch of fake followers like I did back in the day. Right. Is it easier for it because there's people listening to this that bought those same followers and did this? And I mean, because it got cheaper and cheaper and cheaper as time went on. If you've got an account with this full of fake wallet followers, is it better to start a new account, scrap that, start completely over? Cause I've seen, especially on TikTok, it just seems like you can come out of the box and get big numbers very quickly. It's like almost like newer accounts have an advantage over existing accounts. Now, is that accurate or no?

[Logan Forsyth]

It's not accurate. It really depends on content quality above all else. Right. If you create a new account, but you're not creating content quality that people love and highly engage with, then it's still gonna go nowhere. And I've also Seen examples of people who had the fake following account and they've been able to grow out of it organically by just putting all their focus on creating the best content they possibly can. What is quality? Content is very subjective, right? Data is what tells the truth above all else and volume is what can help you get there. But you need to just really be on top of what is working today. Experimenting constantly with different content types. AI is a massive tool that we use now for content research. I can dive into that in a lot of different ways of being able to understand what's working today. But emphasis on content quality is always what's going to produce the most growth above all else. Following size doesn't matter as much as it used to. You can grow quickly on a new account. But also a lot of people create new accounts and it goes nowhere because they're trying to get away from that fake following, but they still haven't put the emphasis on content that they need to.

[John Gafford]

Well, you've got enough data now with as many accounts as you've run and as much many people as you have helped, there's gotta be. For example, you know, you turn on the radio, you listen to a song, nobody turns on the radio anymore. Go to Spotify, whatever. You listen to a song and it's verse, chorus, verse, solo, verse, chorus, end, right? There's a flow to what makes people absorb music a certain way. So what is that flow that you see in short form content that's successful?

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, there's so many types of short form content that work and so there's no right answer. And with social media in general, there's no hard rules, right? Like people are successful doing so many different things and you have to experiment and really decide what resonates with you and matches your brand as well. What I will say is we've used AI to analyze thousands of viral videos at this point. Viral being defined as getting 1 million plus views with a common pattern of these videos being for businesses and brands and not just creators or people doing comedy stuff to get views for views sake. One of the biggest patterns that we picked up on is with the hooks and the framework of the video majority. More often than not there's a number in the hook and then the video is following a step by step format or a list format and you're saying no, three, whatever, five, whatever. Right? But you're saying, so if you're in real estate, it's like these are the five biggest common mistakes that I've seen buyers make in the last 10 years that's lost people millions of dollars. And then you go one by one by one through the list of five. We see that consistently work across so many. We've tested this across dozens and dozens of industries. It's a very, very consistent pattern. Our brains are wired to just want to follow that format, the step by step process. It holds retention better. So that would be the biggest common tip above all else.

[John Gafford]

Well, you know, it's funny, that's not new. I mean, if you look back at copywriters that were writing headlines for, you know, People magazine 25 years ago or Cosmopolitan, you know, the seven ways to keep your man happy, it was always, it's the same idea, right. And people are just taking that into more of a digital place. Now let's say that you obviously a business or your brand, you, you have something on the end you want to want to sell. You know, Gary Vee famously came out with the jab jab punch. What frequency with your. Give me the frequency if I'm somebody that I have something to sell. As far as obviously you might not want to CTA every single video. You might want to just give value. What's the, what's the best, most successful frequency you can give as far as how that goes?

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, it depends on the type of cta. We've tested everything under the sun and what we see works the best for driving leads and conversions from organic content is DM automations. So for Instagram and Facebook, manychat is the top tool. And I see plenty of accounts that consistently go viral. They crush it with views, their growth is pretty enormous compared to other accounts. And they have CTAs in literally every video. And it's using ManyChat. And the CTA is comment this word and I'll send you this free valuable resource that goes along with the video. And if you're doing it in a value based way and it doesn't come across as like a hard pitch or a hard CTA or you're trying to drive people straight to buying a product from you in the content, then you can get away with it a lot more. If you're trying to drive people to something where they need to purchase right away on the front end. That typically only works if you're selling anything low product, I would say, or low price, let's say like $100 or less. You're better off typically driving people to something that's free, whether It's a newsletter. VSLs are still one of the top converting funnels right now on socials webinars are right up there with VSLs. They've really come back heavy in the last two, three years. Live webinars specifically, not automated webinars. And a lot of our clients, we're seeing that they have better results when they're doing one, maybe two live webinars per month instead of a High frequency of 3 to 1 webinars per week because it creates more exclusivity urgency. The attendance rate is higher. They can put more ad spend to have a lot more people attend to each webinar event as well. So those all work for driving people to conversions and then lead magnets. In general, you have cheats, you have resources, AI prompts are working really well, but whatever it is that's congruent to the content. And if you're again doing it in a value based way, you can almost do as many as you want in every post.

[John Gafford]

It's so funny. You mentioned VSLs for two reasons. Number one, whenever I have somebody on this show, I want to make sure they're legit, right. So we do a little bit of research to see who they are. And when I saw my buddy Nick Daniel follows you on Instagram. Nick's the best VSL guy. They own V Shred. He's probably one of the best VSL guys on earth. And I was like, okay, if Nick's following this dude, then I'm okay with this. So let's say you have a product to sell and you want to start with social. What is your best recommendations as far as how that funnel should look for best practice?

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, I like VSL funnels above all else. If you're selling high ticket. I'm also a huge proponent of high ticket. I think it's the way to go. We've connected with countless businesses anywhere from six figures, seven figures. Some of our clients are eight, nine and even 10 figures. And I've never seen a business get to eight figures and beyond without high ticket being the core focus of the business. Right. Low ticket usually can take people to 1,3 million per year, but they hit a ceiling a lot of the time. High ticket being is selling anything that's 5,000 plus.

[John Gafford]

Yeah. So are you seeing this because for so long within sales funnels we're taught value ladder. Right. Like get them in on a lower ticket item and once they purchase for you, then you go to the higher ticket. Are you seeing people right now go like straight to the top?

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, you can do that with VSL if you know what you're doing with the VSL funnel. There's a lot of best practices to follow VSLs. We're generally seeing best results having it be 20 minutes or less. And it just follows the typical format of problem agitate solution. A lot of the time you're answering questions and handling addressing objections that would otherwise come up in the sales process. You want to stack proof on the page below. Once they go to the application form, book a call. You want to have a lot of FAQ videos on the thank you page. Clear steps to outline the process. Having three to six emails per day going out from when they book the call to when they have the call really helps with show rate. As long as the emails are value dense and it's answering questions and just showcasing case studies and value. You don't want the automated responders that everyone uses. That's very lazy and just annoys people. And then you can also have advertising campaigns where you're retargeting people with value based content from when they book the call to when they show up. That helps with show rate, that helps with close rate, that helps with higher amounts of cash collected on calls. And so if you don't do those things then you're going to have less success just going straight to high ticket. But if you follow those best practices, you can go straight to high ticket. Especially if you are creating great organic content because people build trust through watching your organic content. And that's the difference of going to a cold audience versus having organic leads. The organic leads have a lot more trust when they come in versus a cold audience has a lot more skepticism.

[John Gafford]

Sure. Russell dominated this space so long with click funnels and now there's other players in the space that are doing incredibly well. What's your go to funnel for VSL funnels?

[Logan Forsyth]

What is it in terms of like the hosting platform?

[John Gafford]

What platform? What platform?

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, I mean most people out there these days are using Go high level and they kind of just ate the lunch of clickfunnels because they stacked.

[John Gafford]

My gosh. Didn't they though?

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, dude. They really.

[John Gafford]

Yeah. Everything we have is in high level. It's just, I don't know a better program for that stuff than that.

[Logan Forsyth]

It's great, right? Yeah.

[John Gafford]

Let me ask you this. When you come in and you sit down with the brand and you talk about obviously their goals, how many of those people are thinking like what is the broad scope that you're trying to get them to? Is it just followers? Is it just awareness, Is it just clicks? Are you trying to like move them off socials into the newsletter avenue, all of those things. Like what do you, when you walk in to sit down with a brand, what's the overall full scoping pitch you're giving those guys? Yeah, and no, I'm not trying to turn this into an infomercial. I'm genuinely interested.

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, yeah. So we only work with brands and businesses. And when you're working with that type of person, a very common thing I hear is I don't care about vanity metrics. Which is true. You shouldn't. Right. People don't care about just the views, likes and comments. They care about that driving actual tangible results to their business. And so you have to measure it all. I think it's also very, very important to understand the value of brand and what that creates and that you should not only measure the value from posting organic content to the link clicks that you get, or to the direct attributed sales from each platform like Instagram that you get because it's building your brand. And that leads to a lot more open doors that otherwise would have been closed. That leads to more word of mouth, that leads to people talking about you at business dinners that you're not even a part of. And then they come into your website separately. That leads to more search traffic, that leads to ChatGPT recommending you to people and they're asking who's the expert in this field? It leads to so many other areas. And so you should not just measure the benefit of socials from what comes through that direct platform. However, that's still.

[John Gafford]

Hang on a second. Because I think that's the biggest challenge that most, most high level business guys like me. Everything for me is, I always say the truth is in the math. Right? It's, it's got to be in the math. And every, just about every single social media person I've talked to for the last six years always says the same thing, which is this. Well, you can't really quantify the impact. It's very difficult to quantify the impact that this will have on your brand and to business people. We're like, wait a second, dude. Because I can quantify every dollar I spend everywhere else. I need a way to quantify this. Are times a changing a little bit where you can quantify some of this stuff?

[Logan Forsyth]

Yes. So that was the second half that I was going to lead to. I think it's just.

[John Gafford]

Okay, good. Sorry, I mean, to cut you off.

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, yeah. It's really important to preface that there is a bigger picture of benefit that's provided from this. But when it comes to the direct attribution link clicks are an obvious one. DM automations is what converts the best and so you can track the amount of mini chat runs you're getting. TikTok has a native tool to set up DM automations within the TikTok business manager. We're also seeing good results right now, including text CTAs to people. So you can say text the word scale to 3, 1 0, blah blah blah and you can set up automated texts that go out using go high level or using other CRMs as well.

[John Gafford]

Wait, that doesn't. Their algos don't see that as taking them offline and hurt those videos for doing that.

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, good question. We only do that on YouTube and LinkedIn. We're not. TikTok will flag that content and restrict it and then ManyChat works much better on Instagram and Facebook. But YouTube and LinkedIn we do see content crush and drive results. When you're using a text CTA in the content, you can also and should. It's very low hanging fruit to be retargeting all the reach that you create across all of your accounts with ads. Right. And that's another attributable source there. And those are the main metrics. And then also you can see if you have a video really hit or you get into socials, you're putting a lot of effort into it. It's new for you. Look at your search traffic and look at direct website visits and if you see an uptrend or if you see some level of correlations, that's another measurement for you. But it's taken into a bigger picture in general. And then also just keep your ears out for people coming on calls. Have your sales team ask like where did you hear about us? You're going to have a lot of people tell you, oh, I saw you on this podcast or I saw a post come up on Instagram or whatever else the case.

[John Gafford]

You know, it's funny, I think one of the biggest problems people have on socials is they're not intentional with what they're doing. They just do whatever they kind of want and it turns into this hodgepodge. And I have a buddy of mine who is a branding expert, not necessarily an exact year space, but he took a look at my stuff and was like, okay, what are you trying to do? And right now the answer is sell books. That's all I'm trying to do, is sell books. Sell books, sell books, sell books. Because I'm going to hit the New York Times bestseller list. In November or I'm going to die trying. One of the two things. That's it. So he was like, well, everything's got to be consistent about this. Like, you can't. You can't talk a little bit of real estate. You can't talk a little bit of that. Everything's got to be consistent with what's in your book. And I've definitely noticed that since I've done that, you know, I probably had a little bit of a lull at first in kind of of engagement, but now that engagement is starting to come back up. And I think, you know, how do you talk to people about when you get focused about what you're doing? You may lose some engagement because you lose some engagement, but how do you. How do you get them to stay the course? And because that's what I'm struggling, that's what I struggled with a little bit. I'm like, man, is this, is this the right thing to be doing? What should I be doing here? So what's that like? What does that timeline look like for people?

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, it depends. If you're doing a complete shift on your socials than what you've done in past years, then, yeah, there's going to be a dip in a lull, period, because the people who followed you for that thing in the past, they're no longer getting that same value. So it is kind of a reset. I'd say. That's a rare instance and many times not always recommended. There's also ways that you can merge both together. And you should not assume that all of your followers see every single post. It couldn't be further from the truth as well. Right. And so you still can mix in a cadence. Like, let's say you're doing real estate stuff. You can have a portion of your content still speak on real estate. The platforms are now smart enough they're going to serve your content to your followers who like the real estate stuff, and then the people who follow you for other aspects that you're talking about in your book that don't relate to real estate, they're going to get served your content when you're talking about those topics. Right. And so you still can merge both to a degree. And if the book is the main focus, I wouldn't say completely get away from real estate in the example of you, if this is even applicable, but maybe dial it down to 20% of your content. That way you're still serving that audience that's come in in the past. A lot of it is. Yep.

[John Gafford]

Go ahead, keep going, keep going, keep going. I mean, to cut you off, keep going.

[Logan Forsyth]

Biggest part with socials is you just need to get clear on who you're creating content for and why. If you get clear on that and you have a very clear avatar and Persona of who you're speaking to in your content, that's going to be the guiding light. And then it becomes very easy to come up with what you're going to talk about and the hooks and you can start to build out content pillars of different types of content to experiment with and different topics to talk about that all still speak to the same person and is relatable to the same person.

[John Gafford]

Well, let's talk, let's talk about that, the pillars of things. Because I think I found now that if you look at social media, like carousels are very big right now as far as generating stuff. And when I do my content generation, I'll try to do like a reel of me talking about something and then the next day will be a carousel of kind of that same thought and it just kind of goes back to back to back to back. And then in the stories is where I'm just kind of me. The stories is where I torture my daughter, play jokes on her and just generally more of a this is kind of who I am as a dude kind of dealing the stories. I mean, is that a good mix? You tell me. I don't know.

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah. On Instagram specifically, if you look at the insights on your post, they push pictures and carousel posts much heavier to your existing following and they push reels much heavier to non followers. And so I like doing a blend of both. I look at carousels and pictures as more so audience nurturing and I look at reels as more so new audience growth. And that's why there's a time and place for each. Not to say that carousels don't get new reach, they do. And Instagram has over this year released more updates to where they're showing carousel posts in more discovery placements, even in reels. Sometimes you'll see carousel posts similar to TikTok now, but overall they go much heavier to your existing audience. I'd say that's the big thing of both and why you should be doing both. In terms of other types of content that work, I think it's really valuable for you to have someone on your team or someone who you work with to go out and constantly just scroll feeds and make a sheet of viral content for you that's not completely out there, that's still Content that you could see yourself potentially doing. And then you as the creator can go through that and just watch and see what's working and then see what resonates with you. Be like, oh, I actually like this style of content. Let's run an experiment with this for this month and let's do 10 of these posts and see where it goes. And if you see that there's higher traction or higher average view per post, you lean into it more. If you see that it doesn't really go anywhere, then try a next experiment and never stop that process. Because what works yesterday doesn't work tomorrow, right? Yeah, that's a big piece of it.

[John Gafford]

Well, if you look at it like that's any business, right? Like when I teach business planning, it's like, okay, you know, you set your financial goals of what you want to do and then you're going to have three strategies of what you're trying to do to get there. 1 and 2 should be tried and true. You know, they're working. And then three has got to be a flyer. And if you always go like that, sometimes the flyers hit, sometimes they don't, but it will always keep. When one of your tried and true starts to fade away, you'll hopefully be able to replace it with something that's working a little better. You brought up something interesting which was find viral videos that are working from other people and try to replicate what other people are doing. Now, is it, you know, I hear that. But then you see, like Mr. Beast says what's made him him is his purple cow, which is he's trying to do stuff that nobody's ever seen. Now obviously that's very difficult with as much content that's out there and the reach that he has. So which philosophy is better?

[Logan Forsyth]

Both it's model and innovate, not copy and paste. Right. Look at what's working for other people and then innovate on it and make it your own. A lot of like, Mr. Beast still takes inspiration from what's working out there. He uses a lot of tools, he talks about it, and then he comes up with his entirely new creative process to make it much better. And you can do that as a business owner as well. I'm more talking about look at core types of content that's working. I'll give some examples. Right now, something that's working really well is green screen content. And that's where you see it. There's a cutout of you and then the rest the video is other elements that are showing on screen and Holding a mic. That's just very native content that's just working right now. Over the last two years, we saw a big pendulum swing from two years ago. The top production 4K content was way outperforming. Now we're seeing it swing back to a lot of raw style. Phone selfie video content is performing really well and I would recommend testing out a cadence of that to where you can just pull out your phone, talk into it. You don't even need captions. We're seeing a lot of content crushed that just has a headline on there without even having captions on the post. A lot of people are crushing with posts right now to where they do the two Personas talking to each other, right? Of like a skit. It's like you're one person who's playing dumb or asking beginner questions and then you like have a different outfit, you do another. See, you hate it.

[John Gafford]

I hate it so much. I hate it so much.

[Logan Forsyth]

That's not something that you should do.

[John Gafford]

Oh, God, I hate it.

[Logan Forsyth]

See that? And they resonate with it and it crushes, right? It's just like, you know, the thing.

[John Gafford]

The only thing I hate more than that, the only thing I hate more than that is the let me play the viral video while I'm down here in the corner going, right, yeah, yeah.

[Logan Forsyth]

Reaction with no substance.

[John Gafford]

I hate it.

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, I hate it.

[John Gafford]

Like to me that it's just so lazy and so ridiculous. So people do that. But I guess, dude, they do it because it works, man.

[Logan Forsyth]

Right?

[John Gafford]

They're getting something out of it.

[Logan Forsyth]

Again, great example. Like, your team can put together those sheets. You're going to watch stuff, you're going to be like, I hate this, therefore you cannot do it. But you're gonna see other things that really resonate with you. And you're like, you know what, let's try that. Let's like, let's make it a post type that we experiment with and see where it goes.

[John Gafford]

Let's talk about social media teams. Let's talk about the different levels to the game, right? Like, what's the first hire you should make? What's the second hire? What's the third hire? Yeah, when you graduate from doing this for yourself to being like, I need some like what I like. You see, you know, I just got back from. I spoke at Inman Luxury Connect, which is a big luxury real estate convention this weekend. And so many people were rolling around with their own videographers. And to me, that's just not something I want to do. I shoot My own, like, dude, I'll shoot. I'd rather shoot my own shit. Right. It just. But what do you think is the right move? Levels to the game?

[Logan Forsyth]

Go ahead. Yeah. First hire. Absolutely. Is editor slash poster. At least. Editing takes a lot of time and it's very low cost to outsource. You can get incredible talent for it. It's not hard to find. The talent pool of editors has never been greater. I mean, over the last five years, the amount of people who have gotten into editing content is massive. There's a lot of killer 19, 20, 21 year olds who you can hire at a great price, different countries, fluent in English and they can also post the content for you because that's another job that takes a lot of time.

[John Gafford]

Does that hurt you if it's posted from another country though?

[Logan Forsyth]

I've heard that it can. So you want to set up a static residential proxy. We use oxylabs ourself. If you have someone who's overseas posting for you, don't use a standard VPN like NordVPN. We had a software engineer on our team go through this whole process. So I don't know all the details on it, but there's a lot of. There's multiple types of VPNs, multiple types of proxies.

[John Gafford]

Well, they look like they're sitting in your office. They look like they're sitting in your office.

[Logan Forsyth]

To the Internet, to your office or just in the same city. Right, yeah. Also I will. So Instagram finally about a month ago released the functionality where you can add users to your account, which is massive. It took them eight years to do it, but they finally did. And so that doesn't skew the demographics that they know that your account and you as the owner are based in this location. And so that helps with Instagram specifically. TikTok is the worst to where even if you are traveling and you fly over to Europe and you post yourself, it's immediately that same day going to start serving your content to people in Europe versus the U.S. and so you need to have a static residential proxy set up for whoever's managing your socials if they're not in the states. Worst case as well. This is not the recommendation, but it's better than not posting is you can use third party scheduling tools to schedule things out in advance Again, if you have the team and the bandwidth to manually post natively in each platform, we see better results doing that overall. Biggest reason above all else is because you can use all the platform features, all third party scheduling tools are missing features from multiple of the platforms, especially new ones. You're always going to lag behind if you rely on just scheduling out posts. But again, better.

[John Gafford]

Yeah, let's talk about that then. So we're going to come back to who else you hire? Hire next. But, but you said about features, I want to hit this. So when you post stuff, what are the mistakes people make when they're posting native? So like for example, I've heard that if you use the Captions feature within the apps, you get better than if you use like the captions app to generate your own.

[Logan Forsyth]

In terms of just captions specifically or features?

[John Gafford]

No, but in general. So I've heard if like if you edit stuff within the native editing software within the apps, it does better.

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah. TikTok and Instagram have both released articles that state that directly and so you have to believe it. But it's not a requirement. Right. There's just endless amounts of content that goes viral that was not an app as well.

[John Gafford]

You find that to be true or no? You find that to be true. Just because they say it doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Yeah, if I'm trying to sell it, if I'm trying to get to use my editing tools, I'm telling you that if you use them, I'm going to give you preferential treatment whether I do or not.

[Logan Forsyth]

Right.

[John Gafford]

Just because they say it doesn't mean it's true.

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah. I'll say this, it's not a rule, it's not a requirement to have top performing content and I would say majority of count CC out there are using and editing their content outside of the app and then posting it and they crush. So is that a requirement? No, not at all.

[John Gafford]

Okay, so who's the next hire you make? You got your poster and your editor. What's the next hire you make?

[Logan Forsyth]

The next hire you make. You know, it depends on your content strategy and also your filming setup. If you're someone who wants to do more vlog style content or on the move content, you need someone to capture a lot of B roll for you. Maybe you just hire someone as a contractor to film with you in person occasionally. Also I highly recommend if you're going to take this serious that you should get your studio set up and so hire someone one time who knows what they're doing with production to come out and set up a studio for you, make sure that everything's working properly, show you how to use it. That way it's easy for you to just come in, turn the Camera on where you don't always need a videographer if you don't have someone on your team. But I'd say strategy is a huge one because it's still going to take a lot of time and a lot of work from yourself as the person. If you don't have someone on your team who's going to help you go out and look at a lot of content that's working, come up with ideation of what you're going to speak about, content styles that you're going to test. Short form content, it helps if you script it out versus not scripting it out. AI is a big tool for that. Now you should not just fully script content with AI and not review and revise it yourself, but it can make it so much faster than it used to be even two years ago. So that's a recommendation. And so I'd say we see a lot of benefit of next step. Bring someone on the team who is a higher level manager and strategist and can go out there and send content recommendations to you, help you script out and prep so you don't have to spend so much time in prep and you can more so just sit in front of the camera and go. And then also help manage your editor. And if you have anyone else posting for you, have them review all the content before it goes out. So you don't have to review every single post before it goes out. Uh, that would be the next step.

[John Gafford]

Okay, if, speaking of AI, if, if you had to off the top of your head, write one prompt to help you generate content, what would that prompt be?

[Logan Forsyth]

One prompt alone. Um.

[John Gafford]

Yep, give me the prompt.

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, we use a lot, I would say one. One prompt alone is always just telling it its role. Right. So you could just tell it like you are the world's top social media strategist with experience generating billions of views on social media with short form content or long form content or whatever you're using this for. Feed it as much information as possible about your business. So I'd say this is before prompt, this is just with AI in general. Feed it documents, feed it sales call transcripts, feed it offer material, feed it your marketing material, your sales videos, like everything. So it knows your business just as well, if not better than you know your business. So it has all that context to give much better recommendations to you. That's step one. And then you can use the prompt of your world's top social media strategist with experience generating billions of views. Step one, put together my content strategy for the next 30 days, that's going to speak to this ideal avatar who you should have already fed into ChatGPT and then break it down into video hooks for every single video. One thing that we do we haven't spoken on is split testing hooks is massive. Right now I like to split test at least three hooks per video. So in the prompt tell it to give you three hooks per video that are going to captivate, stop the scroll and hook people into watching. And then tell it to give you the full video script while also matching the way that you talk. That way it fits your voice and doesn't sound overly AI. And it's going to give you a full content plan from there. Then you can just game plan and go back and forth with it to tweak it to where you want it to go.

[John Gafford]

You know, you bring up an interesting thing because now Instagram has added testing to their you say you're testing hooks or trial runs. When you say you're testing hooks, is that where you're testing them?

[Logan Forsyth]

So trial reels is the new feature that came out on Instagram earlier this year. It allows you to post a reel that only goes to non followers, none of your existing followers, and it doesn't show up to your profile feed. So yes, for Instagram that's where we overall like to split test hooks. You can record. We like to do three hooks per video, post them all as trial reels on your main account, wait 24 to 48 hours.

[John Gafford]

Same time or no, same time or.

[Logan Forsyth]

Different times, same time doesn't matter. I mean we've done it same time, we've done it spread out through the day. We haven't really seen it change results. Right, but you want to measure the performance of each one of those videos after 24 to 48 hours, see which one performs the best and then you can choose to publish any of those videos to your main feed. So publish the highest performer to your main feed. On other platforms, the way that you split test hooks is using sub accounts. You can't just post the video back to back to back. I mean, you can, but it's not best practice on one account. But you can do that as a best practice if you have multiple accounts per platform. So instead of just having Logan Forsyth, it could be Logan Forsyth, Logan Forsyth scale, Logan Forsyth Reels Marketing. Logan Forsyth Marketing. We post the three split tested hooks across those three accounts and we see what performs the best. And that also gives you 3x if not more leverage for every video you create. Instead of one video it's now three. And then you post those three videos across every platform. At least five platforms on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Snapchat, LinkedIn. Then you're gonna have now three videos times five, 15 posts a day from one video.

[John Gafford]

The highest one.

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah.

[John Gafford]

What's the best proving ground? Is TikTok or Instagram the best proving ground for videos?

[Logan Forsyth]

I personally use Instagram more and most of our clients focus more on Instagram. We see it overall drive better results and a stronger relationship with your following on Instagram versus TikTok. So Instagram is the preference for me, especially with TR Reels. Now TikTok can work as well. I will say that going back to the raw style content, TikTok gives it more preference than any other platform. And there's a lot of creators on there who crush it and all they do is selfie style videos with even no captions on the content. And we see that crush on TikTok much more often than Instagram. So if that's your style of content, then TikTok would be a better testing ground. Otherwise. I like Instagram and trial reels.

[John Gafford]

Yeah, my dude, my daughter comes to me like 30 days ago and says, I want to be an influencer. And I'm like, okay, honey, whatever you say. Sure, yeah, it's great. She's 15. She's like, no, I'm going to do some research. I'm going to figure out exactly what I got to do and this and that. I'm like, oh, it's great, honey, whatever you want to do. Her third video got 2 million views.

[Logan Forsyth]

No way. That's.

[John Gafford]

Yeah, dude, I'm like, I'm like. I mean, I think, yeah, dude, I've. Look, I've never been able to crack tick tock. I don't Instagram, no problem. But TikTok, dude, I'm like, I'm like, okay, whatever Boomer is, I guess response that I get on TikTok, dude, it just, I've never been able to crack that. Is there. I mean, how come. Why do some people resonate like myself on Instagram and then fall completely flat on the old TikTok?

[Logan Forsyth]

Do you ever use TikTok?

[John Gafford]

No.

[Logan Forsyth]

That's why, right? If you just never use it at all and so you're posting like Instagram is the platform that you know and that you focus on and optimize content for and then you just repost it on TikTok. It works for some people. Some types of content, we see it work really well for podcasts.

[John Gafford]

What's the difference specifically, what's the difference? What's the difference?

[Logan Forsyth]

The difference between optimizing Instagram versus how.

[John Gafford]

Do I optimize the video for you for Instagram and how do I optimize it for TikTok?

[Logan Forsyth]

TikTok is over. Again, there's no hard rule, but TikTok is overall a much more raw platform. And so we see people just selfie style video, talking to the camera, a lot of phone content versus higher 4K footage content. Again, not a hard rule, but overall, using trending audios, TikTok is I'd say the top trending platform above all else. And so so many people are creating content based on trends that work as well. And then it's just the more you use it, the more people just understand the mindset. TikTok is. Everyone's still on it, but TikTok is much more of a doom scroll, Let me just not think type of platform that's also generally, if you create content that's a little bit more geared towards that, we see people do better versus very informative, strategic, high level, put your, put your glasses on, let's, let's get to work type of thing, you know?

[John Gafford]

Yeah, got it. No, got it. Okay. You know, I get hit up every day now. The new thing I get hit up with every single day, it seems like in the DMs, which, first of all, dude, okay, this is my little public service announcement to all of you guys out there that are trying to get clients through social media. If you're going to pitch, just pitch. Don't like, hey, what are you working on now? Like, like, dude, no, I don't know you. I'm not going to answer that question. I'm not going to interact with you in my DMs. That's over some crazy nonsensical question because I already know you're going to pitch, right? Don't ask me if you can pitch, just pitch. And if I need what you're selling, then I'll respond. That's my little two cents. But I get hit up every day now, constantly with clipping, clipping, clipping, clipping, clipping, clipping. Oh, we want to clip for you, dude. I got an army of clippers. Clippers, clippers, clippers. Explain this. What is clipping? And is this a good idea? Does it work? Where are you with clipping?

[Logan Forsyth]

Clipping is great. I mean, it's largely how we built our company. An easy way to state it is what we have done. And a big model for us with media scaling is Implementing the Andrew Tate strategy for brands. And that's where sub accounts come into play. It only works, by the way, if your content is already performing really well. Our metric for it is if your average video is getting tens of thousands of views or more per video, then repurposing that content that's already crushing and doing a lot more of it is going to work really well. If your content is not already getting tens of thousands of views per video or more, then just repurposing that same content that's already not at the top level performance is not going to magically get it to work right. That's the big line of whether or not just clipping from a repurposing route alone is going to really work for you or not. If you are getting that high performance, it's the best thing you can do for your brand because it's how you can take your posting volume from hundreds of posts per month to thousands of posts per month and you can just take over. I mean, we've generated lots of brands, tens of millions, even hundreds of millions of views per month for one brand by rolling out all these sub accounts and having a full team behind them posting thousands of times a month. If you are not consistently seeing high view counts, then focus on content quality and you can still amplify your content through hook split testing is the best leverage way, I would say, of doing so. Have multiple hooks per video that you're posting out and that allows you to still create unique content across sub accounts. Most people who are in DM saying I'll clip for you are either just editors and they're using the term clipping now, or WAP is a platform that released content rewards is what they call it and they have a big program on there of teaching other people how to be an agency owner for content rewards for wap. And so almost everyone are brand new business owners. Most of them are 18, 19, 20 years old. They haven't really done this for people before and that is the pitch. They were told to go out there in the marketplace and start just DMing people and they have no experience. So if you work with them, it's probably not going to be the best results. But if you work with someone who has done it and has a lot of experience with it, has a guarantee to back it up like we do, then it crushes again. If your content is already doing well.

[John Gafford]

Well, I love that, I love what you just said because I was going to ask you. In this sea of DM'd gurus, can help you? What if I'm somebody that I don't know anything about this, but I want to get better, how do I figure out who's full of shit, who's for real?

[Logan Forsyth]

It's just like vetting any business. Look at their results, their case studies, do they have a guarantee? How much do they de risk the offer for you? See if you can do some level of a trial period with them before doing a longer term commitment. It's, it's like interviewing an employee, you know, just you have to learn how to vet people properly to choose properly, do your research and homework.

[John Gafford]

No, that's fair. Yeah, but, but you know, again, back in the world of socials, you know, what I found is it's easy to kind of look through the fog, right, because you see people that have, you know, millions of followers and this and that, but you look at all their comments and it's like, this is fire, right? He did this today and you're like, this is engaged. This is all nonsense. Right?

[Logan Forsyth]

Right.

[John Gafford]

So, but I think you do need to dig a little deeper into what people actually do when you're doing this. Last question, which is for those of you know, you, we all want to build our brands, you want to build engagement and of course every platform makes it very easy for you to give them some money and they'll help you do that. Talk to me about boosting posts. Good idea, bad idea. How should you do it? When should you do it? Tell me.

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, overall, I am not someone who really recommends it as a strategy. If you're going to run ads, then have an amazing media buyer who knows what they're doing and run ads to drive conversions, not just to boost and get you more views. Right? Good answer. Yeah. That's all I need to say about all that.

[John Gafford]

I always find, you know, with anything, the path of least resistance, especially when it comes to spending money, is probably not the best path. And man, they just try to make it. So hey, just boost the put. Just boost it, just boost it. And I think you see people wanting to do that. It's like that's probably not the best move, right?

[Logan Forsyth]

I also to speak on the last note you made before that question of basically fake followers, fake engagement, fake views, there's some easy ways to spot it. Overall, SocialBlade.com is a free website and you can put anyone's Instagram or YouTube channel in there. They have other platforms, they're not as good. Instagram gives the best data and if they have a fake following, you'll see just like boom, a huge spike overnight on one wall. Also, go to their reels tab and look at the views per post. And if a lot of the reels are right around the same view count like 2500-002600-00240,000. A lot of the time that's a giveaway. And then look at the comments and if the comments are very min lists and there's not substance to them, and then it's a pretty good giveaway as well. It's just a lot of boosted and engaged. They're called engagement groups that people join to just get all this massive boost to their accounts. That's fake. And the platforms see it as well. It doesn't help. It's just all of a. Basically. Yep.

[John Gafford]

Well, there you go. All right, well, if they want to find you, more about you, Logan, where do they find you?

[Logan Forsyth]

Yeah, Logan Forsyth on socials and then the company is media scaling.com we have some awesome free resources on there as well. Just going over hundreds of viral hook frameworks and templates and content strategies that are working really well today. That's at mediascaling.com secrets and we're across all platforms.

[John Gafford]

Awesome. Well, dude, thank you so much, brother. I appreciate you being on. Anytime you're in Vegas, you're welcome to come through. All right.

[Logan Forsyth]

Amazing. Yeah. Pleasure being here.

[John Gafford]

Well, guys, if you listen to that today, if you're trying to build a brand online, there are so many pitfalls out there that you can run into. Just try to pick the best path that makes sense for you. But at the end of the day, just make good content. If you just make good stuff that people want to watch, they'll find it. We'll see you next week. What's up, everybody? Thanks for joining us for another episode of Escaping the Drift. Hope you got a bunch out of it or at least as much as I did out of it. Anyway, if you want to learn more about the show, you can always go over to escaping the drift.com you can join our mailing list list. But do me a favor, if you wouldn't mind, throw up that five star review. Give us a share. Do something, man. We're here for you. Hopefully you'll be here for us. But anyway, in the meantime, we will see you at the next episode.