← Brussels Playbook Podcast
Brussels Playbook Podcast
Are voters hopelessly divided or universally angry?
00:40:02
Across Europe, political instability and polarization are increasingly becoming the norm
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Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. Europe wants to act big. But underneath the grand strategies, national politics are simmering. Voters are angry about the basics prices, housing, public services, corruption scandals, migration, farmers leaders who promise stability but look increasingly vulnerable. That tension is running through politics from Athens to Paris to Copenhagen. In Greece, a farm funding scandal involving EU money is colliding with inflation, fragmented politics, and talk of Prime Minister Mitsotakis calling early elections to avoid defeat. In France, the post Macron race is already being shaped by the extremes, with Jean Luc Melanchon on the far left and Jourdan Bardella or Marine Le Pen on the far right. And in Denmark, a weakened Mette Fredriksen is back after a record 69 days of coalition talks. But her new government raises bigger questions about migration, agriculture, Greenland and whether the Danish centre left still has a model that others in Europe can copy. I'm Sarah Wheaton, host of the Brussels Playbook Weekender. And today we're looking at Europe from below. Not the grand strategies about China, tech dependencies or how to manage Trump, but the voter anger and domestic pressures shaping what Brussels can actually do. What's really driving voters? Ideology, distrust, cost of living, or the feeling that the system simply isn't delivering anymore? Can Europe's mainstream party still hold the center? And how much room does Brussels have to act big when politics at home are getting messier? With me to discuss are politicos Nectarios de Mouly in Athens and Clea Calcutt in Paris. And here in Brussels with me in the studio is Jacob Maroza Rasmussen. He's a former secretary general of the centrist umbrella party, the alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe, or Aldi, now working as an independent consultant. And he'll help us zero in on his native Denmark. All right, so before we go country by country, I want to ask each of you briefly, what's the one political development in your country that Brussels should not ignore? Nekhtari, I'll start with you.
- [02:58]
C
There are so many open cases at the moment in Greece that the European Public Prosecutor's Office is investigating, and these have caused a lot of anger in the Greek society as well. And it seems that the commission is Basically not putting much attention on those cases.
- [03:14]
A
Okay, well, we are going to dive deeper into that soon enough. Claire, in France.
- [03:19]
B
Well, I think it's the rise of Jean Luc Melanchon, the far left leader who's now in full on campaign mode and has appeared to be snapping on the heels of, you know, other centrist candidates and, and potentially upsetting the presidential campaign here.
- [03:38]
A
Okay, fascinating. Jakob, how about in Denmark?
- [03:41]
D
Oh, it's tempting. I wanted to start with the fragmentation, but I think actually in reality the main thing for Brussels to take note of, because it might spill in here, is the fact that we for the first time have had an election in a government that are very, let's call it, hostile towards the agricultural sector. In Denmark, for the first time ever, they do not have a minister for this and they've been campaigning on everything against the farmers.
- [04:06]
A
Okay, well, allow me to note that even though I am the agriculture editor, as my day job at Politico, Nectaria and Yaakov, both unprompted, brought up agriculture issues because that scandal Nectaria was referring to as a farm fraud scandal. So anyway, I am not doing anything from the outside to influence that focus. But before we get into those Nectaria, let's start with Greece, which maybe has not been quite as much on the radar in Brussels lately. But now there is talk of early elections and you actually have this super telling detail in a piece you've been working on. Apparently the big sign that the government is preparing to campaign is new legislation to double the salaries of the Orthodox clergy.
- [04:44]
C
Yes, indeed, this has caused a lot of attention here in Greece, as you can imagine, because salaries are still quite low in Greece after a steep financial crisis that the country has been through. The salaries have not risen much since then the last decade, and the government has introduced this legislation. And this is yet another sign that the government is considering basically early elections, probably in autumn. No final decision has been taken yet. It will all be decided after the summer lull. And in case there is no big accident during the summer, like a wildfire or something, which is the big danger here in the Mediterranean, the government is considering that the term of the government finishes next July. The elections will be held in any case earlier because Greece takes over the EU presidency in June. So a stable government should be formed before that.
- [05:43]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's funny we keep seeing that, that the countries keep having to kind of rush to get their presidency ready because they have elections right before. But Kyriakos Mitsotakis, the Prime Minister, has really been seen as one of the more stable leaders around the eu. He's part of the center right European People's Party. He seems to get along well with Commission President Erz. Greece's economy has really improved since the bailout days. So what changed? Why does he seem to be feeling vulnerable now?
- [06:12]
C
Well, yeah, the government is stable. He has been at the Prime Minister's seat since 2019 and he has one of the very few majority governments in Europe and stable. But polling data in Greece show that it would be really hard for him to have a majority government. And the reason is all those scandals that are ongoing in Greece and mainly the cost of living. I mean, the country may not be in the headlines because of the crisis, but inflation is rising every month. Housing crisis is a big issue for the Greeks. The numbers, macroeconomic data might be right, but the Greeks are not feeling that in their everyday lives, basically.
- [06:55]
A
Yeah. And as you mentioned, he has a majority government right now, which is. Which is a bit of a luxury these days around Europe. But we are seeing more fragmentation of Greek politics. We now have the former Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras potentially coming back on the left. We also have others hovering on the right. That was part of his motivation for boosting the salaries of the clergy in the Orthodox Church, which is very influential. So walk us through how this is all changing the political map.
- [07:22]
C
Greece's political map is a chaos now because we have two and maybe three new parties already. Former Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has already formed his own party a couple of weeks ago. His goal is basically to gather together all these smaller parties from the center, left and left. It's a difficult task. But his goal is to basically create another poll that could challenge Mitsutakis. We have another party. It comes from the mother of one of the victims in a terrible train crash that took place in 2023. And it's still very shocking for the Greek society. Her name is Maria Karestianou. Her rhetoric captured now has been quite conservative and to the right. So she's most likely to gather voters from that side of the political spectrum. And then we have former Prime Minister Adonis Samaraz, who. Who has been expelled from New Democracy party recently because basically he has been very vocal in his criticism on the government being too soft on national issues, of adapting a woke agenda of not being right wing enough. So he's preparing also to announce his own party.
- [08:39]
A
Okay, so yeah, you've mentioned several issues here. The economy, People on the ground are not feeling that their lives are getting more affordable. You've mentioned Kind of woke culture war issues, this horrible train crash. But also at the very top, you mentioned this huge scandal involving EU farm money. And this is something that you have been, you know, essentially helped blow the lid off of. Basically, politicians were helping people claim money for sheep farms with no sheep, for banana plantations on Mount Olympus. And this scandal will just not go away. And now we're seeing Mitsotakis get increasingly fed up with the authorities. As you mentioned, he's been lashing out at the European Public Prosecutor's Office.
- [09:21]
C
Yes, indeed, this is a huge issue in Greece, and particularly because it involves EU money. And we always know that the economy is on top of the voters agenda. And this is a huge scandal that has been ongoing for years. It involves several levels of corruption from the very top to the bottom. There were people that were receiving farm subsidies for land that they did not own, for animals. They never exist. Farm work that was never done. And many ministers and MPs of the ruling party are allegedly involved in that. And at first we saw that the government was saying that it is cooperating with the European Public Prosecutor's Office that is investigating this case. But then we saw case files from the European Public Prosecutor's Office arriving in the Parliament asking for the immunity of government officials to be lifted. And then the backlash started. And the government is basically, essentially saying that the leading European prosecutor, Laura Kovesi, is basically politically motivated and she's doing that in order to harm the government. So we see literally no cooperation between the two sides. And the latest escalation in this drama is that Kovesi wrote a letter to the Commission warning Greece that its EU funding could be suspended under the EU conditionality regulation.
- [10:47]
A
This is sounding not like a stalwart in the, in the European People's Party, but like, you know, Viktor Orban. And we haven't even talked about the spyware scandal that happened a few years ago in Greece. So how is Brussels responding now that, you know it's an ally of the mainstream? Who's having these types of issues?
- [11:04]
C
Well, basically they're kind of ignoring, I would say, because, you know, everything is a bit political in the Commission. And Mitsotakis, as you said, has one of the most stable governments. And Greece's economy is performing well. And Greece is cooperating on a number of very critical issues for the Commission. So far, we haven't seen much noise from the Commission side on all these scandals.
- [11:28]
A
Has the Commission been called out on this? Have they explained why they're kind of letting these things go?
- [11:33]
C
Well, they have been called out by opposition parties. There were a few missions by the European Parliament in Greece that were trying to investigate all these scandals. And they were, at some point they were effectively adopting the government's playbook, like, you know, blocking from, from, from these missions. Very crucial witnesses. So there has been a lot of backlash from opposition parties, but because of the fact that Chris's opposition is super fragmented, this has not gone very far.
- [12:03]
A
Okay, well, let's say that fragmentation aside, that Mitsotakis does need an off ramp. Brussels could be. Could be calling. There's occasionally been some talk of him becoming the next European Council president. Of course, the main job requirement for that is having been, quote, unquote, in the room as the former head of government. So is this idea taken seriously in Athens?
- [12:23]
C
This idea has been floating in Athens for years. Even before the last round of European elections, there were rumors and several government officials were basically saying that Mitsotakis would love a European post. There were rumors quite recently in Greece that if von der Leyen would be a candidate for the German presidency, Mitsotakis could take over her role. But there is no such rumor in Germany, which is the most important. There were also rumors about Antonio Costa being replaced, but I think he's not going anywhere. So the new plan here in Athens is that after the next round of European elections in 2029, Mitsotakis could be one of the leading candidates to take over for deadlines post, basically.
- [13:08]
A
Okay, all right. I love all these different layers of speculation. Jakob, what do you think? You know, as we know from the current council president, Antonio Costa, that having some connection to corruption allegations back home doesn't hurt your chances here in Brussels. So putting on your consulting hat, is this a realistic prospect for Mitsotakis?
- [13:27]
D
It's definitely a realistic prospect. He wants a job here in Brussels that has been probably the worst kept secret for a long time. One small factor in it. Again, now you have to really go into the nitty gritty of thinking of politics. But there is a mindset if there is an election in Greece in the fall, that sort of exonerates him after the scandal, if he's reelected, at least politically Now, I don't think this is going to end up with him coming already and taking over Costa now. I think Costa is going to continue. But true, there's been a lot of speculation in the power game with EPP and S& D and Metsola in the parliament and all this. I mean, sometimes it's a little bit funny with the European politics. It feels like it's a little bit of a kindergarten. Talk about everybody's rumors wanting to do everything right.
- [14:13]
A
Yeah, everybody needs their prize. So you can't give the EPP guy something. It's the socialists don't get something. So let's, let's bring it back down to voters and the things that they're concerned about. You know, the theme that we heard from Nectar in Greece is this sort of anti system anger being very real over some pretty concrete things. You know, this train crash tragedy, the corruption, this feeling that the political system is out to protect itself. But in Greece, the anger seems pretty scattered, whereas Clay in France, it feels different. You know, it's become much more organized. You have, as you mentioned, on the left, Melanchon and either Bardella or Le Pen on the far right.
- [14:51]
B
Yeah, I mean, I would also say that the system here has become quite chaotic because we have just so many presidential candidates running in the election next year. And so it's quite difficult to know where this election is going. What's quite clear is that we're a bit less than a year away and the presidential election is the thing that's really almost a daily conversation in the establishment because we have a Macron presidency that has really ground to a halt domestically. And you know, the political environments hate a vacuum. And so every day it's about what so and so is proposing. What are the fights between this rival left wing candidate and this other left wing candidate. So it's going to be a very, very long campaign here.
- [15:43]
A
Well, so let's try to just look at a few of the names. Let's just start with Macron's own camp. So we have two of his former prime ministers. Gabriel Atal has launched his bid. Edouard Philippe is already in the race. How do they run as change candidates when they were so recently part of the Macron system?
- [16:03]
B
You're really touching the sort of sore spot in their campaign. Interestingly, Edouard Philippe has taken a step back from national politics for quite a while and he's been a bit quiet these past few years, so trying to keep his powder dry. He's also been quite critical of Macron, which didn't really endear him to Macron's voters. So that was a bit of a risk taker. So he's hoping that that's the way that he can present himself as change. I mean, he was Macron's first prime minister, but since then he's done lots of things. For Gabrielle Atao, it's even harder because he's even more associated with President Macron because he was more recently, although more briefly, Prime Minister. He's really seen as somebody who rose through the ranks as, you know, the Macron generation. But it's interesting how he's completely switched and now saying, oh, the government's been spending too much time worrying about spending and not enough about investing. And so he's really trying to turn a page. And it's absolutely no secret that the relationship between Gabrielle Atal and Emmanuel Macron is the worst ever. It is glacial.
- [17:18]
A
Is that a secret spread by the Atal camp? Like, these guys totally hate each other.
- [17:24]
B
Yeah. Yes, I think there's a bit of both. But definitely Attal himself loves to go over those terrible moments when Emmanuel Macron decided to call a snap election, which basically brought Attal's premiership to a brutal end, without discussing it with him. So this sort of moment of treason was fundamental in Attal's career. But obviously what we're seeing is the far right. Marine Le Pen, Jordan Bardella, keep bringing them back to the Macron legacy again and again.
- [17:59]
A
Yeah. And Jakob, I saw you grimacing when I asked Claire, like, how these guys could run a change campaigns wearing your liberal campaigner hat. What would your strategic advice be?
- [18:09]
D
Yeah, I mean, the only way to run as a change candidate is to distance yourself and to propose something else that the voters clearly feel they didn't get. Because one thing that is clear, and have been for many years across not just Europe, but most of the world, is people are unhappy. They want change. This is the key word in all of this. I mean, we've heard now from Greece and France, a word that came first both places is chaos. But it's basically going back to people want something else. That's why we have chaos at the moment.
- [18:37]
A
Okay, let's hit pause for a quick break. Stay with us. Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play? You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit RedBull.com BrightSummerAhead to learn more. See you this summer. So looking at one of the people hoping to kind of run on this desire for change is, as Clea mentioned, Jean Luc Melanchan. He launched his campaign last weekend in St. Denis with this message of New France. What was he trying to show?
- [19:30]
B
The concept of New France is it's Controversial in that it means different things for different people. For Jean Luc Melanchon, it's basically the downtrodden France, the France that's always been forgotten. It's a France from working class background, it's a France from immigrant background. It's the France that he represents. He's the standard bearer, the. And that he's going to basically run as their candidate. The far right, the National Rally, is trying to portray this as being basically very divisive and that this idea of new France is basically a new generation of French people who come from immigrant backgrounds, as opposed to what they would say, you know, the native French or the. The people who've been here historically longer. So they accuse the far left of being divisive and dividing society. This has become a very sort of cultural war topic between the two camps, which is seen as fundamentally really toxic for anybody who's between those two camps and who are trying to push more unifying or appeasing messages. But it serves both the purpose of the far right unbound, the far left and the National Rally to be the two main candidates going ahead into the presidential election.
- [20:58]
A
Yeah, I mean, I hate to put it this way, but, like, their dog whistles are like, talking to each other. And I can see how New France allows a sort of, you know, great replacement theory kind of, you know, again, dog whistle coming from the far right. But speaking of the far right, Marine Le Pen is still in the picture, but, you know, she faces still this court ruling that would prevent her from running for president. And Jordan Bardella, her protege, increasingly looks like the candidate in waiting. How is this dynamic playing out within the National Rally?
- [21:30]
B
It's becoming increasingly tense and the far right has been ultra disciplined in recent years. I mean, it's very difficult to find anybody who will talk of internal divisions. You know, they come from a place where they've always been the underdog or they think they're the underdog, and so therefore they've got to keep together. Now, you are seeing that unity crack as we approach the verdict in Marine Le Pen's trial that's coming up in July. So you have a more historic camp that supports Marine Le Pen and they're much more supportive of welfare of the working classes, as opposed to a newer camp following Jordan Bardella. I'm really sketching it out quite broadly here, but who are much more, maybe on the economy, more free market, more right wing, basically more conservative in their economics. And so those two camps are sort of fighting it out in the background at the moment. And Depending on which candidate emerges, I think we'll go to see some shifts in how they position themselves.
- [22:40]
A
Well, people here seem to be a bit more thinking that Bardella would maybe have a better chance than Marine Le Pen in a general election. And your piece laid out a nightmare scenario of a round two between Bardella and Melancholy. Why is that suddenly looking less far fetched?
- [22:56]
B
It's looking less far fetched because the center right. So we mentioned those two former prime ministers. There's no sense that they're going to unite around one candidate, yet they both seem to be determined to push their campaigns quite far. And that is weakening the center, basically. There's also other candidates I'm not going to mention because there's just so many. And all this means the centre is kind of involved in this very internal battle and not yet fighting the stronger political forces in France, which are on the far left and the far right. And we've seen some polls that actually indicated that Jean Luc Melanchon might be able to squeeze ahead of the centrist candidate and therefore face off the favorite in the election, which is either Jordan Bardella or Marine Le Pen.
- [23:50]
A
We say that this is a nightmare scenario for Brussels because Melanchon also has some kind of anti EU positions.
- [23:56]
B
Absolutely, yes. I don't think it's documented quite as much because everybody's been focused on the far right. But Jean Luc Melanchon has a very confrontational agenda when it comes to Brussels. He basically wants an a la carte European Union. So he will take what suits him and leave what doesn't. For example, the EU energy market. He's not interested in the sort of what he would call the Von der Leyen's kind of diktats. He doesn't want to follow when it comes to NATO. For example, he said in the past that he wants to leave NATO. There's a whole raft of international topics on which it would be very difficult to work with a far left government.
- [24:40]
A
You're reminding me of the horseshoe theory of politics here. And we talked to Yannis Varoufakis, the former far left finance minister of Greece, about that not so long ago on this podcast. And so Nekhtarya, just to pull you in here briefly, you're saying now, you know, in Greece the parties are super splintered, but there have been far left movements in Greece with a lot of success in the past. Meanwhile, its far right party, golden dawn, has been pretty much fully criminalized. So do you see the Greek electorate as polarized in the way that a country like France is or more that just voters are kind of grumpy within the center parts of the spectrum.
- [25:18]
C
The atmosphere here is quite tense and people are basically they are polarized, but they're not very committed to a particular party. Which is a completely different picture from before the financial crisis in Greece where we had the two party system that was pretty stable and there were two parties rotating in power. Now it's splintered, but people are very polarized and they're also very disillusioned. After the financial crisis. They don't really believe that anyone can actually become their savior. Basically, that's why we see that voter turnout is very, very low.
- [25:54]
A
Yeah. So just some pessimism all around. Well, one last question on France and the EU before we move on. So, Jakob, the one certainty that we have in France is that Macron will leave office and he has been the standard bearer for the liberal center in Europe. What is it going to mean to lose him at the council table?
- [26:11]
D
Oh, it's going to mean a lot. At the end of the day, when we got Macron into the centrist liberal movement, that moved us to a whole different category. I mean, all of a sudden we had one of the big players around the table. So naturally this is going to be a huge step back for the centrist movement, especially because it doesn't look like we particularly are finding somewhere else in the bigger countries. Can I just make one point to what was said before? This is a picture we've seen all over Europe also, that you have far left movements getting more and more popular. And as it was rightly said, there's been not enough scrutiny in what they actually stand for. Some of these movements until very recently have been very pro Russia. Even after invasion in Ukraine, they wanted out of NATO as it was said they wanted to leave EU until recent years ago. These are movements that are quite frankly, in my mind, and I know this is not the Brussels mind, as dangerous to what Brussels want to as the far right.
- [27:07]
A
Well, yeah, well that is actually a perfect segue to move to Denmark because that is where we are really seeing the far left making its move in this case on the mainstream, on the center left. So Denmark is often presented as a country where the center left did adapt in part in response to the far right. Everybody points to Meta Fredrickson's hard line migration policy as evidence of that. But now Meta Frederickson has just had a very difficult election and 69 days of coalition talks. Her biggest threat is arguably coming from the far left. We saw voters punish her party in Copenhagen by going even further to the left. So is Denmark still a model for Europe's mainstream parties or just yet another warning?
- [27:51]
D
I mean, the trend that we're seeing everywhere in Europe is also happening in Denmark. It is definitely true that there's been some movement and the middle class and Social Democrats have been absolutely losing election after election, mainly towards the more left, to the Socialist Party, to the Communist Party out there and a small alternative Green Party. But look, the government formation, yeah, it took 10 weeks, historically by far the longest, because we usually had an easier math and everything was more or less settled beforehand. But the election result was so scattered this time. And personal, let's say problems blocked a few people from wanting to work together. But the government that came out, I mean, as such, it's not much more, on face of it different politically than what we've seen. It just take longer and it's still a center left one. But in the content it's interesting to see because you mentioned how the Social Democrats were tougher on immigration as one of the things that was sort of the revival. I mean, they still had the worst election since, I think 1903. But the only thing Mentholofristen really got out of this government, let's say agreement is strict immigration policy. Everything else was more or less the priorities of the other parties, including what they agreed upon, which is no agriculture minister, because most of the election was literally attacking on pollution of water. We want clean drinking water, we want to work on protecting the conditions for pigs and other things in the agriculture. So right now you're seeing a war declaration almost. I'm sure people will take offense for that against the agriculture from the Danish government in that sense. And then you still have what is mainstream. Mainstream is still, everybody agrees, full support for Ukraine, more expending on defense. And then of course, the elephant in the room that we try not to talk about publicly because we have put it in a high level working group, which is Greenland with the United States.
- [29:46]
A
Yeah, tell me more about that. Like what do the relations between the US and Denmark look like?
- [29:51]
D
Currently very delicate. There is a constant fear that we won't be able to land this in a good way. For sure. There's absolutely some change in the mindset. I mean, most Danes used to think of the United States as our number one partner no matter what, even if we didn't like that. Trust has eroded now and there is a huge underlying fear, even though they won't say it publicly, that that Trump wakes up one morning and says, no, I Want Greenland, after all, and just try to do something right. What they're doing at the moment is trying to give an enhanced agreement what they can and cannot do in Greenland, which, quite frankly, it's an agreement we've had for many, many years anyway. So it's just trying to make it reality a bit more.
- [30:32]
A
And the Greenland discussion reminds me that before this whole issue blew up, people were saying that Meta Frederickson was toast back then. So how much longer do you think she's actually going to lead this new government? Should we be talking about a council job for her, too?
- [30:48]
D
Yes. The question is when? Look, more or less a day or two after the government was formed, the debate about this government has been about when is she leaving and who's going to succeed her. I mean, there are two rivals within the Social Democrats, the finance minister and justice minister, and there are different wings within the party. And it's really tearing the Social Democrats quite heavily at the moment. But maybe it'll calm down, but it'll be underlying. Everybody's expecting TZI is not leading the Social Democrats for the next election whenever it's going to be. And I think, honestly, I mean, if we look at the three countries we've been dealing with today, it's sort of the same picture. You've had people who's been in office since either In Macron's case, 2017, or Mitsotakis in Greece, also 2019, just like Metropolitan. And they are all looking for something in the next career because you've had people who came in relatively young and who are certainly not willing to retire yet. Right. And everybody wants something. There's just not enough jobs. So Mitsutaki, he wanted something, metaphorically, definitely wants something. I think NATO is out of the question for her for a number of reasons. She also tried, but, yeah, I mean, she's definitely mentioned as one of the options also, because, let's face it, there's not that many Social Democrats to choose from.
- [32:02]
C
Absolutely.
- [32:03]
A
So before we close, I do want to drill in. Not just because I'm the agriculture editor. To your point about declaring war on farmers, I mean, every politician from Brussels to Warsaw seems terrified of having tractors on the street. Except in Copenhagen. What is going on there?
- [32:22]
D
Look, the simple fact is the farming sector have had an outsized influence for many, many years, but reality is it's becoming a smaller, smaller part of the Danish society. I think I saw somewhere that only 20,000 people actually in Denmark are working in the sector. And I think the cynical calculation from some parties have been look, it's vital, but it's not that vital a sector that we just simply have to protect them and it's more important to focus on other things. So the reason why I find it interesting is you always have to see what is happening in certain countries as the first move that could become European wide. And with the upcoming budget negotiation in EU and always a relevant discussion of size of the cap and how to spend it and so on.
- [33:05]
A
Common agricultural policy, I mean, I think
- [33:08]
D
you will be seeing some more push for not necessarily cutting it down, but simply reusing it for other things. How it'll land. That is an interesting one.
- [33:17]
B
All right.
- [33:17]
A
Yeah. And fair warning to our listeners. We probably are going to be spending more time on this podcast talking about the EU budget. The debate is going to get really big and as Yaakov just captured, it's. It's hyper, hyper, hyper political. In Denmark, they're throwing the farmers under the tractor. So we'll see how that plays out for them. Just to close out broadly. One thing, you know, that I've been watching in all of these elections on both sides of the Atlantic is what's actually driving voters. And my thesis really since 2024 is that I think they're just angry. Governments of all stripes aren't delivering and that's why they'll throw governments out at any opportunity. Viktor Orban wasn't immune. Olaf Scholz wasn't immune. Mitsotakis doesn't look immune. George Maloney and Frederickson have staved it off, but voters have weakened them when given the opportunity. So again, maybe they are just getting more ideological and that's why we see countries like France and Denmark looking to these streams. But you know, Jakob has already addressed his, his view on that. I think, I think you agree with me on this one that they're just angry. But curious to hear Nekhtaria and Clay. What do you think is driving them in your country? Are they angry or more extreme or both? Nekhtaria, I think both.
- [34:28]
C
Basically in Greece, voters are definitely angry and polls show that basically they're super angry. With one main reason they're angry is the cost of living. And the second thing is rule of law issues. All these scandals that have rocked the Greek political system and the Greek society. They are on top of the minds of the voters. I mean, they are also voting extreme parties in Greece. The good thing, I would say is that there is no leader basically that has showed up that could become a prominent figure that could gather all the voters if we add up all these votes to extreme parties. They are basically top party in Greece, but they're all splinters, Claire and France
- [35:13]
A
just angry at whoever's in charge. Or more polarized.
- [35:17]
B
I think they're angry often at whoever's in charge. I think the anger stems from basically our society's difficulties in managing decline.
- [35:29]
A
Oof.
- [35:29]
C
Oof.
- [35:30]
A
Stabbing us in the heart.
- [35:31]
B
I know. I mean, the economies, the, the pension reforms that France has to go through, the sense that your children are not going to have a life that's as good as you have, particularly in France. There's the sense of public services, state services, health. And it's a country where people are taxed. They're taxed very, very highly. I mean, it's a lot of tax that you pay, and so you expect certain things. And those things are sort of creaking. The hospitals are not as good as they used to be. And I think that fuels a sense of that somebody with a more radical proposal, like Jordan Bardella or Marine Le Pen or Jean Luc Melanchon, somebody with a more radical solution will be able to fix the problems that are just becoming bigger and bigger.
- [36:17]
A
All right, so, Jakob, last word to you. Managing decline. It's not exactly. It's morning in Europe.
- [36:21]
D
No, absolutely not. Look, I mean, it's been said clearly, of course, part of it is people are upset. This is cost of living. It's a lack of trust in the leaders. There's also just a simple fact. Always in politics, after a certain number of years, five, 10 years, people are getting tired of you. But I think there is one issue that we haven't touched upon that also is driving this, which is linked to the cost of living, and that is the inequality in society. Most voters are seeing cost of living getting more and more expensive. They're seeing some of the services, whether it's hospitals or anything else, falling a little bit. But they're also seeing the rich getting really rich. And if you combine that with the lack of trust of the political leadership, you have the recipe for people wanting to seek something more extreme. They almost don't really care what the people are standing for as long as you just promise to throw in a hand grenade and change the system. This is what we're seeing and this is the dangerous thing that we have to find a way. And I'm saying this as a free market liberal who big favor of people making money. But we have a problem we need to address.
- [37:17]
A
All right, great note to end on. Jakob Klea Nekhtaria, thanks so much for joining me.
- [37:21]
B
Thank you.
- [37:22]
D
Thank you.
- [37:23]
C
Thank you very much.
- [37:27]
A
And that's it from us this week. Well, almost, because last week we were discussing the EU's plan to detox from US big tech, and we asked you to share with us how you made the switch from American Tech to European replacements. Oh, my gosh. We received many enthusiastic messages. Alexander from Norway told us that he uses ProtonMail, a Swiss company. He told us, your episode gave me the push to finalize my migration to Proton. Ivan from Slovakia wrote in to say, and I quote, the main obstacle to their wider adoption are people's ignorance and force of habit. Bit harsh. Okay. For several years, he's been using Linux as an operating system that was originally developed in Finland, and LibreOffice as his office suite for alternatives to Word, PowerPoint and other programs. And another listener, Henrik, chastised us for using WhatsApp. You know, fair enough, but said in an email that we inspired him to use Google Gemini to generate a list of European alternatives to American tech. It's quite an elaborate document. We got many more messages and we don't have time to get into all of them, but you can check out the comments on Spotify for more recommendations from our audience. Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts. If you have questions or comments, send us a voice note or a message on WhatsApp. You can find the details for that in our show notes, or you can always write to us from any email platform you want at podcastolitico eu. And if you haven't already, please rate and review the show. The Weekender lives on the Brussels Playbook podcast feed, so subscribe there. Thanks to Deanna Sturris, our supervising audio producer, and to audio producer Saga Ringmark. I'm Sarah Wheaton. See you next week.