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- [00:00]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
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- [01:04]
Ann McElroy
Despite the war in Iran and its economic consequences preoccupying London, Brussels and all of the European capitals, a lot of work is going on behind the scenes to strike a closer relationship between the UK and the European Union. Nearly a decade after Britain voted to leave the bloc, Keir Starmer has tasked his ministers with negotiating a post Brexit reset. The aim to bring areas of the British economy into closer alignment with the EU in the hope to bring down prices and cut red tape. But given Europeans preoccupations and a still grumpy mood with post Brexit Blighty 10 years on, how's it really going? I'm Ann McElroy and my guest this week on EU Confidential sits at the heart of Starmer's government here in the Cabinet Office in Whitehall. Nick Thomas Simmons is one of the Prime Minister's closest allies around the Cabinet table and he's been notching up the hours on the Eurostar back and forth to Brussels in an attempt to strike a deal. By the summer, he's got his work cut out, agreeing a youth mobility scheme and alignment in key sectors of the economy has been a far from smooth process. Some doubt on both sides of the Channel it's going anywhere at all. Nick Thomas Simmons, welcome to this EU Confidential interview.
- [02:25]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
Delighted to join you, Anne.
- [02:27]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
Let's turn to Britain's reconnection with the eu, which is the meat and drink of a lot of your job in the last months since you were in post. I know you're frequently in Brussels for talks with your EU counterpart, Mauro Eskovic. How much progress are you making and when is the government planning to name the sectors where it wants to align in the single market?
- [02:51]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
So, first of all, I think we've made very significant progress. The relationship between the UK and the EU is in a very different place from where it has been, frankly, under previous governments. And you can see that not just do you think, the security and the defence partnership that we signed last year, you can see it in terms of the re accession to Erasmus plus, which can give opportunities to tens of thousands of people here in Britain, but also the agreement Mara Sefkiewicz and I came to just before Christmas, not just to open negotiations on electricity trading, to try to bear down on bills and provide that energy security that is so important. I think we've seen in the events in the Strait of Hormuz how even more important that is, but also the completion of the negotiations on, firstly, the food and drink agreement to try to bear down on the cost of food, the emissions trading system linkage, which is going to mean that carbon taxes that might have been levied on businesses won't be. But also the Youth Experience scheme that I'm very excited about.
- [03:58]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
I think we're a bit unclear on what we're likely to achieve by when. I mean, you know, we've heard, for instance, that the end of April is a possible time ahead of a summit in June or July to actually name concrete sectors. And this is what business wants to know. Can you give us a bit of clarity?
- [04:14]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
So, first of all, on the timetable, on the food and drink agreement, I've said I want to get the piece of legislation through Parliament by the end of the year and implement it. So businesses are benefiting in the middle of next year. So there's the timetable that exists on that. However, on the wider issue of single market alignment, what we will be doing is looking, and are looking pragmatically, as I have throughout. I've called it ruthless pragmatism at different sectors to see where are those sectors where we are de facto aligning anyway. And it is already happening because businesses want to sell into that giant market that is on our doorstep. But secondly, where is it in our economic interest to do so? And we do that, and not on the basis of ideology. We do it very much on the basis of what is in our national interest and particularly our economic interest. And that's the process that we're going through.
- [05:10]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
So I was trying to get a data out of you and I still feel that it's a long walk for a short drink. Do you imagine that we would actually have some clarity on this and are we still aiming to introduce a bill to give overarching powers for a legal framework for alignment in the King's Speech?
- [05:30]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
So the bill, the. That we are going to introduce, which, yes, will introduce that mechanism of alignment, I would expect it on that sort of timetable and then to be completed by the end of 2026. So completed its parliamentary passage by then.
- [05:47]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
But to be clear, you are expecting to have it in the King's Speech,
- [05:49]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
which is coming up. Coming up next month.
- [05:52]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
Next month and with a summit for junior July.
- [05:56]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
We've not announced the date to the summit we hope to be able to
- [05:58]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
do this would be a really good
- [05:59]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
chance to do it shortly and I'm sure your podcast will be an excellent to to do it. But let me just, let me just say this as well, because alignment with EU rules and regulations, that's not some sort of dirty term or dirty word. We are doing that because we want to reduce barriers businesses are facing. Take something like export health certificates, where businesses have had to purchase over a million of these in recent years. Some of them that I've actually been out, I've been out visiting businesses. I've actually seen these. I've been given one of these certificates, cost you up to £200 20 odd pa length with 56 wet stamps on it. Now, that is the kind of red tape we need to be sweeping away
- [06:42]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
from businesses in order to do that, right? To get this reset. I mean, I think, you know, I think everybody is aware of the problem. So I mean, it's not important. I mean that, yes, we know you've got the job. Having to negotiate in quite difficult circumstances, frankly, also within Europe for a lot of countries saying, oh, why should we help Britain, et cetera. Now, is it the case that this entire reset, which as you seem to confirm is to be finalized by this summer, ideally June or July, maybe by the end of the interview you might tell us which hangs on the outcome of this dispute about the youth mobility scheme and how that goes ahead. So, like, can you explain that linkage to the listeners a bit?
- [07:23]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
Well, what I would say to your, to your listeners is I negotiate for many hours on a very regular basis and I see frequently speculation as to what might be a particular, particular sticking point here. What might be a particular sticking point here. Somewhere else and my sense to your listeners would be you're probably going to see quite a bit more of that in the weeks to come. That's just the nature of negotiation. I was involved in many negotiations before I became a Member of Parliament, so I'm very used to the business end of negotiations. And of course you will get both sides pointing to things that might be more important to them than others, but that is just the nature of the process. I am very confident that we will get to a conclusion, as Marilyn and I before Christmas said we would, on youth mobility, emissions trading and indeed on the food and drink agreement.
- [08:14]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
You're very confident.
- [08:16]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
If I wasn't confident and I wouldn't be involved in the negotiations in the way that I am, I'm always confident of getting to a positive outcome. And listen, Mar Sefkovic and I get on very well. That doesn't mean, though, that the two of us are not very robust in our negotiating styles with each other. It doesn't mean he isn't standing up for the EU interest. I'm not standing up for the UK interest, but I think we are at a moment where it is clearly in the interests of both the UK and the EU to have close relationship, whether it's on security and defence or whether it is on the economy. We have £800 billion worth of annual trade between us. It's clearly our interest to reduce barriers,
- [08:54]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
so let's just dive into that. Youth mobility experience and university tuition fees stand off there. The EU is refusing the UK government's demand for hard capital numbers in the scheme. Instead, it's offering an emergency break set up if the number's coming to Britain proved to be too high. Now is a hard cap a red line for you?
- [09:15]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
So the position on this is what is already set out and agreed in the Common Understanding from last May. I'm not going too far into the speculation around different aspects of this because I've always tried carefully not to end up in a running commentary, because I don't think it helps the negotiation. But the common understanding from last year did not have the tuition fees in it. And secondly, it was very clear about the need for a limit and that is the basis upon which we are negotiating.
- [09:46]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
But then it's odd, isn't it, that this should have been put onto. It doesn't sound like it's progressing that well. If tuition fees, which we know to be is a really difficult one, given that we have UK tuition fees around 9,500 a year, tuition fees are lower or indeed non existent in Many of the member states in the E.U. now, as you've confirmed, if it wasn't in the common understanding, that must be quite frustrating. Have it put on the table at this point.
- [10:17]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
Not at all, in the sense that I expect a range of issues to be raised both around this negotiation and in the debate we have on it over the next few months. I think that's just the nature of it. I mean, some of the speculation and other points I read are not indicative of how well we've been progressing, because I actually think we're progressing extremely well.
- [10:37]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
But will you refuse to move forward on the basis of the emergency break for the youth mobility experience as opposed to what is. The British government has always said it wants a hard cap on numbers. I mean, come on, you know, you can't fudge that it is one or the other.
- [10:52]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
Well, you certainly can't fudge the final agreement. You're absolutely right about that. And nor would I seek to. I want. I will have a clear agreement, I will go out and sell the benefits off to the British public. But I'm just not giving because I don't think it assists the negotiation to just give a running commentary on various proposals that. Some of which appear in the press, some of which in the negotiating room. But can I we just, we just
- [11:12]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
come back to this, but tell me what you're pushing for. I understand the running commentary line, although actually government sometimes does give it running commentary when it chooses. But what do you think is more important here? Is it that you've got British universities up in arms saying if this foreign fee income is cut and not replaced, the sector would be left massively out of pocket? It's already under strain. Is that a price that you think, well, that's worth paying to get access in other areas, as you've described how important it is to get this reset for the broader UK economy.
- [11:43]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
A properly funded university sector here in the UK is absolutely fundamental. It's a sector I know very well from my previous experience before I became a Member of Parliament. So I'm very passionate about our university session. I think it's a platinum standard university and indeed FE sector that is world leading. So it's no question of sacrificing one aspect of the economy in that way.
- [12:09]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
So you understand the concerns of the universities and that there's a sense here that the EU is playing hardball when it to putting that tuition fees on the table. It wasn't even on the table before Annan Menon. You'll know as the director of a good Think called UK Changing Europe, says this perhaps shows the whole reset is more fragile than the government wants us to think.
- [12:29]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
No, I think that I certainly play hardball in the negotiations. The Marist plays hardball in the negotiations. That's just the nature of it. But I think we have to come back to first principles in terms of what we're trying to achieve, not just on security and defence, but on bearing down on energy and food prices, cutting red tape for businesses and, by the way, a Youth Experience scheme sitting alongside Erasmus. And it's quite right, obviously, to talk about the mechanics of it, of course, but that will deliver tens of thousands of opportunities for people here in Britain. I am looking forward to going out to making the case for all those things. And if Kemi Badenoch and Nigel Farage want to set their face against it and undo all of this, that's a debate I will relish.
- [13:12]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
You and I both have a very strong interest in Germany, so one of the things there, I'm thinking that you've got German students who are not paying tuition fees. If this goes ahead, and the youth mobility experience includes a university experience either, as things stand, they're looking at paying much higher fees. What's in it, then, for Germany, for the demographics it cares about here, is getting its young people. A lot of them are going to want to study. They don't all just want to come and work in a coffee bar. So what's in it for them?
- [13:40]
Ann McElroy
And isn't this part of the problem
- [13:42]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
that at the moment, we're not aligned, really, on what people would get out of this? This. Unless you do offer some relief on the tuition.
- [13:50]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
So my message is that I want young people, whether it's young people here in the uk, or indeed young Europeans, to be able, through this youth experience scheme, not just to study, but if they want to work or indeed if they want to travel. So I want it to be a flexible, broad scheme that is giving those opportunities. And that's the case I've been making.
- [14:14]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
It sits alongside, along with university participation.
- [14:19]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
Study certainly should be part of it, and I've never not said that it certainly should be. But it also sits alongside Erasmus Plus. And I think with Erasmus plus, it is a very different scheme in the mid-2020s, the one perhaps people would have known it as 10, 15 years ago, when it was seen as much more a student exchange. Of course, that is still part of it, but with Erasmus plus, it's also about those who are doing apprenticeships, who might wish to go and spend time abroad. It's about sports coaches who might want to do that, people who might want to do professional exchanges. Really important for our FE sector. And also, by the way, we're talking here, Anne, about opportunities for young people. Also includes adult learners as well.
- [14:59]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
Let's not forget, is youth mobility scheme going to be in place after the beginning of this year or the road to it? Are you confident about that? I have to say, as I go around Europe, I find less and less confidence that you will be able to deliver.
- [15:11]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
I have confidence absolutely that we are going to be on the road to delivering and I think I'm very confident that what Maris Sefkic and I promised in December, we will deliver.
- [15:23]
Ann McElroy
We'll be back in a few moments
- [15:25]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
to talk more about progress on the
- [15:26]
Ann McElroy
UK EU reset with my guest Nick Thomas Simmons, Minister for Europe.
- [15:34]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
So good, so good, so good.
- [15:36]
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- [15:46]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
How did I not know Rack has a D? Because there's always something new.
- [15:49]
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- [16:04]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
obstacle that you face here, that there are fiercely protected interests of some key member states. So we saw the negotiations not bearing fruit over the defence fund, so called safe, that collapsed when France proposed a ceiling on the value of UK produced military components. In the end it ended up I think it was Lord Ricketts who said in the House of Lords relevant committee was so off the scale that it suggested that some EU members didn't want the UK in the scheme. In a sense we're trying a reconnection quite a lot of time on the other end there isn't the same desire, one who kisses and one who turns the cheek.
- [16:41]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
Well, we can still participate in the there's been a safe funding schemes up to 35% but that just illustrated first of all that I will not advise and I will not sign up to things that are not value for money. And I've said that throughout. But that isn't to say that there isn't a deep and hugely important UK commitment to European defence, whether it's the hundred year agreement with Ukraine, the promise of 3 billion pounds every year, the work the Prime Minister is doing on the coalition of the Living, the Joint Expeditionary Force, the Jeff that we have in Eastern Europe and I have been out in recent years to Estonia to discuss just that. So Britain plays a leading role in European security and with regard to the position going forward, the door is very much open both in terms of, well,
- [17:30]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
there isn't another safe round in coming up in any reasonable horizon.
- [17:34]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
Well there's the, obviously the Ukraine loan scheme which we're very open to discussions in with the European Union, but the door remains open as the Prime Minister has said on future safe rounds. But always we will apply a test of the national interest and value for money.
- [17:49]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
Everything that you say sounds fine until one starts to come down to the money. I mean you look at me across the table and say, yeah, tell me about it. But is the government prepared to make substantial financial contributions to gain access to crucial markets and sectors, Chemicals, cosmetics, medical devices, automotive, which have this big cross channel supply chains. Where are you expecting progress on this? So some business organizations saying okay, the chemical deal is actually closest to being across the line. Can you just throw a bit of light on that? That.
- [18:19]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
So in terms of financial cost, it's already the case the previous government made a financial contribution in terms of its membership of Horizon, the research program. I negotiated a discount on the re accession to Erasmus plus and we will have a 10 month review clause in that agreement to look at the balance stream contribution and participation. We'll of course on something like the food and drink agreement need to contribute towards the administration of the scheme. So in all these cases, just to where I took a very different decision on the financial contribution, on safe participation, we will apply value for money test what is in the interests of our economy. And that pragmatic approach, that ruthlessly pragmatic approach stands in stark contrast frankly to the ideology that has dominated this debate and still seems to dominate the Conservatives and reform in their approach, which is economically detrimental.
- [19:16]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
But I think what's the bigger objective here then? Is it like the Swiss style relationship, you know, we have have special deals and side deals and sectoral deals or is it a sort of more full fat option, as one EU diplomat told one of my colleagues at Politico, if it becomes too much of a Swiss cheese version of something like EU membership,
- [19:37]
Ann McElroy
but with lots of holes in it
- [19:39]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
from the UK perspective, well people will just raise objections. We can imagine who will be the first to do so. I think that's a reference to France there, if my Trivial Pursuits serves me correctly. It does seem a bit odd, doesn't it? What are we trying to bespoke?
- [19:53]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
UK deal and I often used to have this debate and to go in opposition. Are you looking for. We used to have the debate, the Norway model, the Swiss model, all these different things. It is something that is in our national interest and will be unique to the United Kingdom. And that's exactly what we developed and we agreed in the common Understanding last year. And that's what we will do again. We are guided by a pragmatic assessment of what our nationalism is.
- [20:17]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
You're not guided by what the other side will agree to. And at the moment it still feels that there is an objection or perceived objection to us cherry picking. It's a very sort of a new way of thinking about these things. I mean, let me put it in a sort of nutshell. Swiss cheese or full fat creme brulee? What are you aiming for here?
- [20:36]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
So what we do is in a situation where it is in both sides interests to develop a closer relationship. That's precisely what we are developing together. And of course these negotiations are off and have been seen in the past as a zero sum game. But in general, genuinely is here a situation where both sides can win, whether it's from security and defence, whether it's in terms of energy, particularly energy at the moment, if you think of the situation we have in the Strait of Hormuz, but also economically, if you have an economic relationship worth over 800 billion pounds a year, it's clearly in both sides interest to reduce barriers.
- [21:14]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
I know we're running towards the end. Let's just talk a little bit about the perception of all this in the uk. Siddiqan Mayor in London advocating rejoining the eu. Last manifesto from your party before he came into government expressly argued against that. But we have seen a few of your cabinet colleagues in a flirtation either with full rejoin or with some form of customs union reconnection for Britain. Your thoughts?
- [21:40]
Nick Thomas-Symonds
So we were elected on a mandate in 2024 that said that we would not rejoin the customs union or single market or go back to freedom of movement. We will not do those things. But we were also elected on a mandate to build a closer UK EU relationship within that framework. That's precisely the work. In fact, I was doing it for a year before we got into government in opposition. And that's the work I'll continue to do. And I think the assessment of where we go next is very much about alignment with the single market and those areas that are in our economic interest.
- [22:16]
Ann McElroy
Nick Thomas Simmons, thank you very much
- [22:17]
Interviewer (EU Confidential Host)
for coming on EU Confidential.
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Nick Thomas-Symonds
It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
- [22:22]
Ann McElroy
Thank you for listening to this interview episode of EU Confidential. I'm Anne McElrovoy, and the senior producer is Peter Snowden.
- [22:33]
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- [23:00]
Ann McElroy
Edu Sci Fi.