B (2:30)

It is. And what's really important for Ukraine here is to really put forward the message that Kyiv would like to be able to make its own decisions when it comes to choosing what it spends that money on. Because there is a camp in the eu, and this is part of the debate we've been covering here at Politico, a camp led by the French that says the Ukrainians should be buying European weaponry.

C (2:51)

This is killing two birds with one stone, basically, isn't it?

B (2:54)

Exactly. Because if you've got all of this money going into defense industry, while the French and others might like that money to go towards boosting their homegrown companies. But the flip side of that, which other countries are actually putting forward, is the idea that, like, listen, the only people who know what Ukraine needs are Ukrainians. They're the ones who are best positioned to decide whether they want to spend this money on EU weaponry or if they want to go somewhere else, like for instance, the US or the uk, and buy stuff that they need right now. Because we know it's been a brutal winter for Ukraine. Their energy infrastructure has been attacked, people have been freezing cold. So there is a real sense from the Ukrainians of urgency and they want to be able to make their own decisions. And that's actually why it's so important for Ukraine to be in these sorts of meetings and represented.

C (3:42)

So that's that point of the discussion. And then the more formal item on the agenda is signing off on the national plans for eight countries to get some money as part of the big defence program called safe. That's security action for Europe. Eight countries today, Estonia, Greece, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Finland and Poland. Poland getting the bulk of the money.

B (4:05)

Yeah, 44 billion in out of 150.

C (4:08)

I find the most interesting thing about this is just the sheer speed that this is happening. You know, this program was announced less than a year ago by the European Commission. The programme's due to be signed off today and they're supposed to get this money by next month. That's really quick for the eu, isn't it?

B (4:24)

It's astonishingly quick. And actually, Ian, one of my sour was telling me that actually the reason why they're signing off on eight plans today and some of them are being punted to next week is actually because it happens so fast they haven't had enough time to translate everything.

C (4:38)

Well, that's such a EU problem, isn't it?

B (4:41)

24 languages, 24 problems, Ian.

C (4:44)

Yeah. So then they go into a dinner today and that's maybe when the juicy stuff happens.

B (4:49)

That's right. So we've been told it's in a one plus one format, which is it's the minister and an aide and no phones.

C (4:56)

So not very easy for journalists to find out what's going on. And that's the point, I suppose.

B (5:01)

That's exactly the point. And that's why we reckon, you know, the juicy conversation about Donald Trump and transatlantic relations might happen at that dinner. The other thing they may discuss is the Munich Security Conference, which is coming up soon. So it's towards the back end of the week. On Friday it kicks off. And of course, last year that was attended by US Vice President J.D. vance, who caused quite the stir. This year, US Secretary of State Marco Rubio was representing the Trump administration. I'm sure that'll come up as well, if not at the dinner, then perhaps in the line for the cubicles after. A star studded list of EU leaders are going to be attending the third European Industry Summit in Antwerp today. Ian, It's a pretty big deal this year because it's quite unusual. German Chancellor Friedrich Mertz is going to be there, Ursula von der Leyen is going to be there, they're going to give addresses. Why are these bigwigs coming?

C (5:55)

Well, it's very much seen as the hors d', oeuvre, isn't it, to the European Council retreat, forced of hours, the hors d' oeuvre for the European Council on Thursday, which is happening in that castle that we mentioned yesterday. Oudenbissen. I looked it up. It's actually way over in the east of the country, near the Dutch border near Maastricht. But yeah, this is the European Industry Summit hosted by the Belgian Prime Minister Bart de Weva. And I think what's interesting is the way that this has suddenly become a mainstream topic for the eu. We've seen how less than two or three years ago, this was very much a thing that was being pushed by business leaders and various different industrial sectors. And now I think it's a sign of the way that the EU has changed. The prominent leaders are here talking about.

B (6:42)

Industrial policy and it is sort of an interesting counterbalance. You've got Brussels, where EU regulation is made, and now you've got Antwerp. Their industry calls for EU regulation to be unmade. So it's kind of a yin and yang, like you and me, Ian.

C (6:58)

I don't know which is which, though, that's the thing. It was in 2024, I think that this meeting produced the Antwerp Declaration, which called for a European industrial deal. And I think that was seen as the business and industry trying to sort of counterbalance the green deal, which they thought was causing too much red tape, and it was about calling for more dereg in order to boost the economy.

B (7:24)

Yeah. And that's how we got the clean industrial deal rolls off the tongue, not to mention the simplification drive. So, yeah, look, I think an industry summit isn't normally something you or I would cover. We would normally stick to political stuff, but this one really rises to that political level because it's influential. There is a pretty good opportunity for politicians to meet the industries and to hear from them, to hear what's bothering them.

C (7:47)

So one of the ones I. I singled out actually was car makers. The European Automobile Manufacturers association are meeting to push the EU to boost car production. The amount of cars that are being produced in Europe has gone down quite dramatically, and they want to use this meeting to make that case. I think that's just a very small example of how Europe can be less reliant on the rest of the world.

B (8:11)

It might be small, but it's important. And I think it gives us a bit of an indication as to why Friedrich Merz is going to be there, because obviously the car industry is really an existential one for Germany. And meanwhile, China is absolutely streets ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to EVs. They've had all sorts of government programs that have boosted that industry. And there is huge concern in Europe, and particularly in Germany, that we're looking around and seeing these other countries are nipping at our heels and in some cases are overtaking us. And so that's really the point that's going to be made by some of these industry leaders today. And I think there is a pretty significant chance that some of those conversations are going to be reflected tomorrow when the EU leaders meet for their informal summit.

C (8:56)

Yeah, this is what I was going to say. It's all very clearly tightly choreographed. You've got the industry discussions today, and obviously leaders have that fresh in their minds when they speak to their counterparts tomorrow and then go to Munich for the rest of the week. This is all part of, I think, of this machinery of the EU really kicking in now. But let's also look at the other side of the argument, because some NGOs have accused Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, of citing too closely with Industry. So there's always a flip side here. I think the letter came from NGOs like Greenpeace, friends of the Earth. You know, deregulation is not to everyone's taste, is it?

B (9:36)

Yeah, that's right. These NGOs are saying deregulation is not an industrial strategy. That's their message. They're warning that if you roll back the green deal rules to revive the economy, that that's going to have all sorts of problems when it comes to things like environmental protections and so forth. So I think there is a bit of concern also about the speed of the so called omnibus packages. That's simplification for you and me, deregulation as they might call it. So, yeah, these folks are saying it's too fast, there's not enough scrutiny and let's slow it down a bit, pump the brakes.

C (10:08)

Well, we can all follow the developments from Antwerp on our website today. We've got a reporter going there. I don't know how early their bus is leaving, Zoya. As early as yours tomorrow.

B (10:18)

One can only hope. I'd like to have some company in my misery.

C (10:25)

And that leads us on to our third story because this is about Bart Do Weva. He's hosting that meeting in Antwerp today. But he's also had something to say about Brussels city politics, hasn't he?

B (10:37)

Yeah, he reckons if you give him control of Brussels in five years, he'll clean this place up. He reckons he'll do it cheaper than anyone else can do. Which would be quite funny to put a Flemish nationalist separatist in charge of the Brussels region. Yes.

C (10:53)

Bart de Weber said if he was given carte blanche, he would work miracles in Brussels in five years and with less money. That's quite, quite Trumpian really, isn't it?

B (11:01)

Well, it was almost as Trumpian as the leader of the French speaking liberals, Mrs. Georges Louis Boucher, who reckons he might get a government in Brussels region by the end of this week. It's like saying that you might solve the war in Ukraine and Russia in a day.

C (11:17)

So, yeah, which is what Trump said just before he came to office, wasn't it?

B (11:20)

Exactly. So we've got seven parties that kicked off talks actually yesterday, what they call a conclave in Belgian nomenclature. And basically what they're trying to do is something that hasn't been done in guess how many days, Ian?

C (11:34)

Well, I read a couple weeks ago it was 600 days since Brussels had a government. So it must be just over 600, is it?

B (11:39)

Yeah, 612.

C (11:41)

That's nearly two years.

B (11:43)

Look, I don't know that I have faith that we're going to see a Boucher breakthrough.

C (11:49)

So what would you do if you had carte blanche to work miracles in Brussels?

B (11:54)

I'd be more flat out than a lizard drinking in.

C (11:58)

I have no idea what that means, Zoya.

B (12:02)

I'd be busy.

C (12:04)

I was thinking it would be quite nice to have a pedestrianized plaza between the Berlemore and the Justice Lipsis. I think that was a little bit more mundane as a miracle.

B (12:13)

Well, I'd settle for cobblestones that aren't missing in the streets of Brussels. That would be quite nice. I wouldn't be rolling my ankle every five minutes.

C (12:21)

Yeah, you fell over last week, didn't you?

B (12:22)

Yeah, Landed flat on my.

C (12:24)

I went on your what?

B (12:27)

I'm not allowed to say that word. I was going to say I went ass over tit, but I don't think that'll make the cut. Yeah, it was not my finest moment.

C (12:38)

As opposed to this podcast, which definitely is. Before we wrap up, shall we talk about some people who got in touch after yesterday?

B (12:45)

Yes. Look, thank you to all who've written in or sent us voice notes on our WhatsApp number, which is, by the way, in the show notes. Please do reach out. I do read them all, and for now, I'm able to respond to them all. So, you know, get a personal message from Zoya if you send one in. So, look, we've had a few interesting things come in. We've got recommendations coming in from our listeners for pubs around Brussels. Wild Geese got a shout out. And then we've had a lovely listener called Ville who said that the James Joyce is worth checking out, but only if you can stomach being surrounded by British diplomats like yourself, Ian.

C (13:20)

I'm not a diplomat, but what can be more attractive than lots of rich British people drinking lots of beer?

B (13:25)

We've also had another listener write in and recommend the Wild Rover on Rue Joseph. And there's the Dubliner as well. Although they also say that someone needs to save the karaoke pulpit from De Valeras. Do you know what that means, Ian?

C (13:39)

No idea what that means, actually.

B (13:40)

Speaking of karaoke, what's your karaoke song? Brussels. That's what I want to know. So, you know, that's our next call out. Let us know what your perfect classic is.

C (13:50)

Let us know who you are so we can avoid you.

B (13:53)

How very dare you, Ian. I like to do I will survive. What about yours?

C (13:57)

Total Eclipse of the Heart. Shall we stop, folks?

B (14:00)

That's it for today's Brussels Playbook podcast. Please subscribe to our show if you haven't already. Leave us a rating. You know what? Five stars would be so nice. Or a review even better. Thanks, Ian.

C (14:12)

Thanks, Zoya. And I'm not here tomorrow, but you've got Sarah speaking to you.

B (14:16)

I do. Sarah Wheaton is going to be with me tomorrow. I'm Zoya Shaktalovich. See you then.

A (14:33)

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