Europe’s foreign policy turf war

Summary

Brussels Playbook Podcast: “Europe’s Foreign Policy Turf War”

Date: June 29, 2026
Host: Zoya Sheftalovich (POLITICO's chief EU correspondent)
Guest: Nick Winnicker (Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent, POLITICO)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the intensifying internal power struggle over European foreign policy—spotlighting the European External Action Service (EEAS), its future, and how power is being tugged between the EU diplomatic corps and the European Commission. The pod also delves into Europe's evolving and fraught trade relationship with China, and ends with an offbeat segment on Greece’s fight against invasive, poisonous pufferfish.

The tone is fast-moving, conversational, and informative, with Zoya and Nick blending analysis and wit as they break down why these behind-the-scenes turf wars actually shape the EU’s voice and clout internationally.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The EU’s Foreign Policy Turf War

[01:09–08:28]

• What is the EEAS and Why Is It Under Siege?

  • EEAS was created post-Lisbon Treaty (2008), designed to unify Europe’s foreign policy, replacing the confusing patchwork of national voices with a singular EU "voice.” The service has ballooned to about 5,000 diplomats worldwide, mixing national and EU staff.
    • “Instead of having 27, 28 at the time, different sort of foreign policy voices, you would have the EU foreign policy voice…they decided to create the EEAS, a standalone diplomatic service.” (Nick, 01:34)
  • Assignment of power has created a “Frankenstein’s monster” dynamic. Member states, the Commission (under Ursula von der Leyen), and the EEAS (now led by Kaja Kallas) all jostle for influence, particularly on hot files like Ukraine, Israel, and migration.

• Commission’s Expanding Role & Structural Tension

  • The Commission holds powerful tools (trade, budget, migration policy) and von der Leyen leverages these to act as a stateswoman on the world stage, leading to overlaps and occasional public splits.
    • “We live in a world of much more brutal power politics… [the Commission] has the policy tools, it has the trade tools…it controls the EU budget. So over time it’s taken on a bigger role.” (Nick, 03:09)
  • A recent incident: After Kallas upset Israeli officials, the Commission dispatched a senior Commissioner (Dubravka Šuica) to interface with Israel instead, meaning on that day, “effectively two voices” represented the EU (04:56).

• Personal Power Struggles: Kallas vs. von der Leyen

  • There’s “no secret” of tension between Kallas and von der Leyen’s camps, exacerbated by disputed public statements and staff “brain drain” from EEAS to the Commission.
    • “She [Kallas] said in an interview she likened China’s overcapacity…to a cancer. Now, the commission did not take on board that comment and said, well, that doesn’t represent the EU position.” (Nick, 06:02)
  • In response, Kallas has begun restructuring the EEAS, bringing in high-profile names like former Dutch Defense Minister Kajsa Ollongren as Secretary-General—“a bit of a power move”:
    • “Having a former defense minister who also knows the Secretary General of NATO, Mark Rutte, very well is a bit of a power move.” (Nick, 07:49)

2. Europe Gets Tough on China—But Will Brussels Blink?

[08:29–12:25]

• China Trade Relations: Tensions & Imbalances

  • China's Commerce Minister Wang Tao visits Brussels for key talks with EU Trade Commissioner Maroš Šefčovič. First such meeting since the EU’s decision to toughen its China policy.
  • EU countries now all run trade deficits with China; the 2025 surplus hit €360 billion and is still rising. One-third of the world’s manufactured goods now come from China.
    • “China’s trade surplus with the EU reached 360 billion euro in 2025. And this year it’s already on track to be 10 percent higher than that.” (Zoya, 09:34)

• Hesitant Hawkishness—Especially from Germany

  • While consensus about the China problem is easy, Germany’s cautious stance on aggressive tools (“anti-coercion instrument”) makes unified action tricky.
    • “Germany is, as always, the key player…very cautious about picking a fight, about taking a hawkish line, largely because the German car makers…continue to make a lot of money in China.” (Nick, 10:27)

• Perception Games: Is Brussels Bluffing?

  • EU officials worry that if they “put a bunch of guns on the table” but never use them, China can safely assume Brussels will not act. This opens the EU to being outmaneuvered by Beijing:
    • “If you keep putting a bunch of guns on the table…but you make it clear to China…you’re not going to pull the trigger, then China’s just going to think, oh well, this is just another BS kind of thing…” (Zoya, 11:18)
    • “Beijing has hit back at any measure that the EU has…has done without blinking.” (Nick, 11:51)
  • Xi Jinping continues prioritizing manufacturing; any EU “dialogue” is unlikely to resolve the structural imbalance soon.

3. Greece’s War on Poisonous Pufferfish

[13:03–14:58]

• Pufferfish Invasion & Economic Consequences
  • Poisonous pufferfish (native to the Red Sea) are now rampant in Greek waters due to warming seas and the Suez Canal opening, causing havoc for local fishermen.
    • “They have jaws that can bite through fishing nets and bones…no known antidote…they’re actually invading the waters around Greece.” (Zoya, 13:22-13:44)
  • Greece is now offering €5.33 per kilo for every pufferfish caught and destroyed to offset annual damage (about €8,500 per boat).
    • “This is a matter of their livelihood for these fishermen who are losing out on a lot of their catch. So it is a super serious issue.” (Nick, 14:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Perfect for podcasts, the best medium for air quotes.”
  — Zoya, wryly commenting on Nick’s use of air quotes while describing the EEAS’s mission. (02:22)

• “You might call that a power grab. A lot of people are calling it that.”
  — Nick, describing Brussels’ overlapping diplomatic efforts. (04:56)

• “The optics of that…effectively what you’re seeing is a split personality. We created the EEAS to speak with one voice…and there were effectively two voices [on Israel].”
  — Nick, on the Israel diplomacy debacle. (05:06)

• “Germany’s always kind of said, no, we don’t want to do [the anti-coercion instrument]. But what they’ve asked the Commission to do is to come up with a smaller gun.”
  — Nick, summarizing Germany’s approach to China-trade regulation. (10:27)

• “Unless you’re willing to use one of them, [instruments] isn’t particularly helpful. If you keep putting a bunch of guns on the table…but you’re not going to pull the trigger, then China’s just going to think, oh, well, this is just another BS kind of thing…”
  — Zoya, paraphrasing EU officials’ frank warnings. (11:18)

• “Everything I know about the pufferfish comes from that episode of the Simpsons from, like, 1994 where Homer decides to eat a poisonous puffer fish, sushi.”
  — Zoya, lightening the tone before the pufferfish discussion. (13:22)

• “It’s not really so much of a problem to be near a pufferfish. You just don’t want to, like, lick it.”
  — Zoya, reassuring listeners about swimming in the Med. (14:58)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:09] — What the EEAS is, how it started, and its intended mission
• [03:09] — Why the Commission is eclipsing the EEAS
• [04:56] — High-profile diplomatic overlap: The Israel debacle
• [06:02] — Personal/political tension between Kallas and von der Leyen
• [07:34] — Kallas announces new EEAS leadership to reclaim clout
• [08:29] — China’s commerce minister arrives in Brussels: Background and stakes
• [09:34] — The staggering China-EU trade imbalance, by the numbers
• [10:27] — Germany’s key (reluctant) role in shaping a China policy
• [11:18] — Brussels’ perceived reluctance; strategic communication risks with Beijing
• [13:03] — Greek pufferfish crisis: the economic and ecological impact

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Tone & Recommendations

• Tone: Informal, brisk, lightly irreverent but always insightful; blends hard news and quirks (pufferfish) seamlessly.
• For New Listeners:
  This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in how internal EU politics (personalities, institutions, and power plays) directly affect Europe’s global image and negotiating position.

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For those who haven’t tuned in:
Expect a primer on why it’s so hard for ‘Europe’ to speak with one voice, warts-and-all coverage of China trade gridlocks, and a very unexpected aquatic invasion in the Mediterranean. As always, the Playbook team distills the day’s Brussels buzz with clarity and a dash of humor.

Transcript

[Salesforce Announcer]

Today's episode is brought to you by Salesforce. Salesforce is the world's number one AI CRM, helping businesses and governments of every size connect with the people they serve. From sales to service to citizen engagement and mission support, Salesforce at Genyc AI works autonomously to power the world's most innovative companies, agencies and institutions, keeping humans in the driver's seat. Learn [e-mail] EU Good morning.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

It's Monday, June 29, and this is the Brussels Playbook podcast. The vibe in Brussels today is existential as the EU's diplomatic service fights to prove it still has a future. Also on the pod, Europe is talking tough on China, but Beijing is betting Brussels will blink. That's so many bees. It was all a literate of bees. Thanks for that one, Dionis. And Greece is putting a bounty on poisonous pufferfish taking over its waters.

[Nick Winnicker]

Nick, I mean, I want to know more. Let's go right in.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Let's do it. I'm Zoya Shevtolovic, and with me today is Nick Winnicker, our chief foreign affairs correspondent. And, Nick, our first story is actually exactly in your wheelhouse. In fact, you've written it. It's about why the EAS is fighting for its future. So let's talk it out. A tell us a little bit about this EU diplomatic service. This is the European External Action Service. It's led by EU High Representative Kaya Callis. What is it meant to do and what's going on?

[Nick Winnicker]

Yeah, so this all came about when the last big wave of treaties, the Treaty of Lisbon in 2008. And the thought was that instead of having 27, 28 at the time, different sort of foreign policy voices, you would have the EU foreign policy voice and there would be an hrvp. They signed that into the treaty, and then after a few years later, they decided to create the eas, a standalone diplomatic service, which would be staffed with national diplomats, but also EU staff. And over time, this thing has grown and grown and grown. Now it's got about 5,000 people working there in delegations all around the world. And the idea is to come up with joint positions that are going to represent the EU's view on the world stage. I've just done air quotes there.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Perfect for podcasts, the best medium for air quotes.

[Nick Winnicker]

And. And also to do diplomacy, basically to help countries do diplomacy, especially for smaller countries that don't have a vast diplomatic network.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Except, Nick, like, that was the idea. Right. But what we've ended up with is kind of a Frankenstein's monster situation where we have both the EAs and still nations with their own representatives. In a lot of these places, there's a lot of fighting for territory where you've got Brussels kind of divided the positions when it comes to EU foreign policy between the European Commission, with Ursula von der Leyen, the Commission president, really strong on foreign policy, trying to eke out space there, but also this kind of extra branch.

[Nick Winnicker]

Exactly. So I think what this story's about is really how the world has changed since 2011, when this thing came to be. Traditional diplomacy statements were more important at the time. Now we live in a world of much more brutal power politics. What the story talks about is how. How the Commission has grown more powerful. It has the policy tools, it has the trade tools, it handles migration. Super important issue in the EU and it has vast resources, it controls the EU budget. So over time it's taken on a bigger role. Von der Leyen herself enjoys external relations, relations with other leaders. She is now a states person, stateswoman figure on the world stage. And that's created a kind of structural tension between the Commission and the EAS and of its leaders. And there's a big personal part of that which I think we'll get into. But the structure is really what we talk about in this story.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

And there have been a few instances recently where we can see this writ large. There was the fact that when it comes to talks, high level talks about Ukraine with Ukraine, Ursula von der Leyen's chief of staff, Bjorn Seibert, has been involved in those. The Commission has been hosting Taliban officials to discuss migration. Just last week. The Israel policy is a big mess. Kaya Callis has upset the Israelis with some of the things that she has said there. She allegedly kind of likened them to an apartheid state. As a result of that, the Israelis aren't keen to talk to her. So the Commission has sent in Dubravka Schwitzer, who is the Commissioner in charge of the Mediterranean. So it's just all of this overlapping stuff that's happening, which creates a bit of a mess. Because if you're the EAS and you're trying to be the one voice of EU diplomatic policy and you see the Commission taking more and more bites at your cherry. You might call that a power grab,

[Nick Winnicker]

you might call it a paragraph. A lot of people are calling it that. I think the, the sweets of situation you just described is the perfect encapsulation of the situation. Because on a day when Kalas was in the Middle east has, you know, broken off Relations with Israel is in this kind of spat with the Foreign Minister. You had a senior commissioner appearing in a press conference with that same minister who says he won't speak to the EU's chief diplomat. So from the outside, effectively what you're seeing is a split personal right. We created the EAS to speak with one voice on behalf of the eu. And on that day there were effectively two voices. So the optics of that, and both sides will tell you these trips were long scheduled. This is not a conflict. But the fact of the matter is you have a commission which is conducting Israel policy along one track and then you have a diplomatic relationship with the EAS which is evolving on another track and it creates a bit of confusion, of course.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Well, let's talk about the personal tension you alluded to. And it's no secret that there has been tension between the Kallas and VDL camps.

[Nick Winnicker]

Absolutely. We're talking about two very high profile politicians here. Kallas was the Estonian Prime Minister before coming into this job. She has experience with executive leadership and a lot of that role is dealing with EU ambassadors here in Brussels, managing a lot of the process. Some of it is quite boring. And when she first came into this job, a lot of the grumbling in town was, well, she's going over our heads as ambassadors. And that created a bit of resentment. Then you have this tension with von der Leyen herself, who's taken on some of these diplomatic roles. And this has led to, well, in some cases the commission spokesperson staff has corrected or distanced itself from comments that Kalis made. She said in an interview she likened China's overcapacity, its effect on EU industry to a cancer. Now, the commission did not take on board that comment and said, well, that doesn't represent the EU position. So you have that, that tension there.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

The other thing there's tension about is staffing. Right. Because Slavon der Lyon has been able to attract some of the top staff from the EAS as well. And there have been some accusations flying around of like, basically a brain drain in the direction of the commission. Right?

[Nick Winnicker]

Absolutely. So you had some high profile departures. One was Simon Mordu. He used to have a very senior role inside the eas. He was taken on as diplomatic advisor to von der Leyen at the start of her term. Now she's been fighting back and she unveiled some high profile new hires this week. A new leadership structure inside the EAS she named.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

This is callous, right?

[Nick Winnicker]

Callis. Absolutely. She announced a new Secretary General, which is the former Dutch Defense Minister Kaisa Olongren. So a high profile person there.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

She's very well known in town and also obviously in the capitals.

[Nick Winnicker]

Having a former defense minister who's also knows the Secretary General of NATO, Mark Ruta, very well is a bit of a power move. Also David Trock, and I think I'm pronouncing it correctly, Francis, former ambassador to NATO, he's Deputy Secretary General for Peace and Security. Another kind of symbol of we want to really lay in that defense part.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Yes. There are a number of appointments that she's making which are quite high profile and designed to kind of wrestle back some of that power. In any case, Nick, this is just one of several stories that you've been working on for several months and they're going to be on our website over this week. So folks should keep an eye on our website for all that.

[Nick Winnicker]

Absolutely. Stay tuned.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Foreign. To our second story, China's Commerce Minister Wang, Wang Tao is in town today in Brussels. He's going to be in talks with the EU's Trade Commissioner, Mara Shekovic. And it's the first major EU China trade meeting since this European Council summit that you and I were both at, where basically the EU decided they were going to get tougher on China.

[Nick Winnicker]

What's going on here? The EU is getting ready to protect its markets much more aggressively. On the other hand, it wants to keep this dialogue channel open with Beijing. The basic ask is, please stop flooding Europe with goods that its own economy can't absorb. This is the overcapacity pushing Beijing to develop its domestic market, sell more of this stuff at home rather than export so much. But also they want to fend off a full blown trade war. And they're also saying, look, we've been talking for a while, but something kind of needs to change. Now, our colleague Carlo has a piece out this morning that talks about just how far out of whack this relationship has become.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Yeah, it's pretty significant. And I mean, we've been talking on this podcast about this for a while as well. So China's trade surplus with the EU reached 360 billion euro in 2025. And this year it's already on track to be 10% higher than that. And China is now making one third of all manufactured goods in the world.

[Nick Winnicker]

Sounds like a big proportion, big amount.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Yeah, yeah, not too shabby. And Nick, I've been in talks with commission officials, with EU diplomats. They're all on the same page. They're saying we now get it. Every country in the EU now has a trade deficit with China. So they agree that the problem is huge. The problem is when you start talking about what the solution might be and taking out the various instruments that the Commission has at its disposal, you've got countries like Germany that are saying, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't know if we want to go so hard and use the anti coercion instrument, which was this trade bazooka that was created specifically to use against China by the Commission.

[Nick Winnicker]

Yeah. And Germany is, as always, the key, key player when it comes to these trade discussions with China, very cautious about picking a fight, about taking a hawkish line, largely because the German car makers, even though their market share in China has been diminishing, and of course they're affected by Chinese exports into Europe, they continue to make a lot of money in China and they've defended that market share. So they have been kind of cautious. And as you mentioned, the anti coercion instrument, Germany's always kind of said, no, we don't want to do. But what they've asked the Commission do is to come up with a smaller gun. Right. Different tools that are kind of more targeted, more precise to help address these imbalances. And that's really a buzzword, imbalances that has come about in the past few weeks. We don't say overcapacity, we don't say China, we say imbalances.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

The funny thing is, Nick, that like, I've been in briefings with officials who say, okay, this is from the Commission's perspective, we can make more instruments, but unless you're willing to use one of them, this isn't particularly helpful. And they're warning that actually, if you keep putting a bunch of guns on the table, but you make it clear to China that you're not going to pull the trigger, then China's just going to think, oh, well, this is just another BS kind of thing that you're not going to do. And in Carlo's story, you get a sense of that where there's this feeling of like, okay, Beijing just expects Brussels to blink.

[Nick Winnicker]

And that's kind of the bottom line here, is that Beijing has hit back at any measure that the EU has,

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

has done without blinking.

[Nick Winnicker]

Without blinking, indeed. And Xi Jinping continues to put manufacturing at the heart of the Chinese economy. This is kind of his bet on China. So there isn't a great deal of give from that side. It's hard to see how dialogue can kind of fix this unless something really changes.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Before we get to our final story, Nick, first I just wanted to give our Audience, a quick recommendation. Our colleague Dasha burns in the U.S. she's my counterpart in D.C. she's interviewed a Finnish president, Alexander Stubb, for our U.S. sister podcast, the Conversation. And they talk about Trump, Ukraine, the future of NATO. And Stub actually told her that Europe has heard Washington's demand to take more responsibility for its own security. And he's got some advice for anyone panicking about the transatlantic alliance.

[Nick Winnicker]

I'm sorry, I love this. As a Swede, I say, you know, very finished. Go on, be a fin, take a sauna, take a cold bath, calm down,

[Salesforce Announcer]

we'll sort this out.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

You can listen to the full interview on the Conversation, and the link to that podcast is in the show notes. Nick, what do you know about poisonous pufferfish?

[Nick Winnicker]

I would say my ignorance is bliss on that one.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

I can tell you're not a classic Simpsons fan because everything I know about the pufferfish comes from that episode of the Simpsons from, like, 1994 where Homer decides to eat a poisonous puffer fish, Sushi. Anyway, look, I was just reading about this. They're 40 to 60 centimeters long. They have jaws that can bite through fishing nets and bones.

[Nick Winnicker]

Whoa.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Yeah. And their flesh contains poison with no known antidote.

[Nick Winnicker]

Yikes.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Yikes. And they're actually invading the waters around Greece. Sorry for our Greek friends. Friends of the pod. They're originally in the Red Sea, but they've reached the Mediterranean through the Suez Canal. Nick.

[Nick Winnicker]

I hope they paid the toll, though. Sorry, it's a terrible joke, but.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Well, apparently climate change is helping them survive in. In the waters where they previously were not. And because they've got no natural enemy in the med, they're just eating all of everyone's catches, biting through fishermen's nets. It's pretty bad.

[Nick Winnicker]

Wreaking havoc. Is there a pufferfish jaws potential here?

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

One can only dream. Our colleague Nectaris Stamouli has actually written a story that's also out this morning, talking about how the government is trying to help out these Greek fishermen and the cost per boat for the like, damage that they wreak is €8,500 each year. So they're really kind of motivated to help out those fisher people. And Greece is now offering to pay them €5.33 per kilo of pufferfish that are caught and destroyed.

[Nick Winnicker]

Yeah, and of course we're making jokes, but this is a matter of their livelihood for these fishermen who are losing out on a lot of their. Their catch. So it is a super serious issue.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Yeah. Although I was pleased to read through this story and find out that it's okay to keep swimming in the Med because it turns out it's not really so much of a problem to be near a pufferfish. You just don't want to, like, lick it.

[Nick Winnicker]

Okay, so ixnay on the Jaws sequel.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

That's about it from us today, folks. Although let's celebrate the birthday of someone who's no longer with us. We don't normally do this, but it is a bit special. It's Robert Schumann who was born 140 years ago today.

[Nick Winnicker]

Bobby Schumann.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Yeah, Bobby S he of the roundabout.

[Nick Winnicker]

What would he think of the roundabout that they unveiled? Is he rolling over?

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Let's ask him. Get the Ouija board out. That's about it from us today. Tell us. You know we've been talking about the pufferfish in the Med. Tell us about your holiday destinations this summer.

[Nick Winnicker]

Where are you going?

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

That's what I'd like to know. I literally don't have plans, Nick. So if someone can suggest a place that's not too hot in August.

[Nick Winnicker]

Yeah. Cool cations.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Yeah.

[Nick Winnicker]

That's what it's about.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Yeah. Yeah. Somewhere with a breeze and a mojito.

[Nick Winnicker]

Let's do it.

[Zoya Shevtolovic]

Yeah. That's it from us, folks. Raiders review us. Speak to you tomorrow.

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