B (2:38)

And I know you watched the press conference yesterday afternoon with kaya Kallis, the EU's chief diplomat, and she raised the prospect of frozen Russian assets being back on the table. That would be quite a turnaround after that all fell apart in December, wouldn't it?

C (2:51)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, K was a big fan of that plan all along, but she was one of the only people that was.

B (2:56)

We should remind people, actually, it was Belgium in the end, or Belgium at the start, actually, that said the plan to use the Russian assets wouldn't work because they're based. Nearly all of them are based in Belgium. And Bart de Weber, the Belgian Prime Minister, had massive objections to using that because of all sorts of reasons, maybe legal reasons. And in the end, other countries came out of the woodwork and sort of backed him up. And that's why they then came to sort of this Plan B, which was to find other ways to finance the loan. You can't really see something working now that didn't work in December, can you?

C (3:28)

Yeah, exactly. I mean, the whole reason this plan was torpedoed in the first place is because there were issues over legal credibility, over what that would mean for the EU as a financial center. I mean, the European Central bank was completely against this plan. It is questionable whether this could ever be revived. But, you know, we are in a difficult situation where it's not clear the path forward. And that's exactly what Callas was saying yesterday afternoon. She said, you know, it's a setback not to be able to agree the sanctions package and to be able to. To be going to Ukraine on this, this particularly poignant Ann anniversary with this loan deal in hand. She said it's a message we didn't want to send.

B (4:01)

And this was the whole idea, wasn't it, that Costa and von der Leyen would turn up in Kyiv today and be able to shout about it, to say that they've got the latest sanctions on Russia and to say that this, this 90 billion loan has been approved. And yes, Ukraine is still going through this very difficult war, but the EU is trying to do all it can to help. Suddenly that that message is a lot more fragile.

C (4:25)

Exactly. It was supposed to be this big set piece moment that Orban has completely deflated. And you also need to remember the stakes and the immediacy of the problem right now. When we were back in December, we still had a few months to play with before Ukraine would face its massive budget shortfall in April. Now April's just around the corner, so time is really ticking.

B (4:45)

We've seen this before, of course, that Viktor Orban likes to throw his weight around and Hungary will try to stop decisions being made, and in the end, Orban will back down. But this just makes it very difficult when the EU operates, needing 27 countries to agree.

C (5:04)

It does. And it certainly doesn't help that what we're seeing at the moment seems to be a massive blame game. I mean, Orban in particular, he's been blaming the Ukrainians for part of this. Let's remember that what started this whole situation was the fact that the Druzhba pipeline, it's an oil pipeline that runs through Ukraine. Orban was protesting that that pipeline hasn't been repaired and that the oil's not flowing to Hungary after it was bombed by Russia. And Kallas was asked this on stage yesterday. She was asked, who's at fault? The fact that she's even being asked that question is quite significant, but she said, obviously, who's at fault is Russia? They bombed the pipeline in the first place. And she can absolutely understand that. Ukraine's priority isn't fixing a pipeline for cheap Russian oil to flow to the eu. Their priority is repairing their own energy infrastructure that's been massively knocked out by Russia in the middle of winter. And obviously we have to view this in the context of the fact that the Hungarian national election is coming in April. Callas also mentioned that, but she said she kind of can't see this from the perspective that turning against Ukrainians is a political win nationally for Orban, something that's going to get him extra popularity in the polls. She said, how is this possibly a vote winner to be turning against your neighbour Ukrainians and people that are in need.

B (6:11)

Okay, thanks, Katie. Well, now we're going to play the short chat I had with Zoya last night, just as she'd got onto the train in Poland, ready for the overnight journey to Kyiv. Hi, Zoya. How are you? You're on the train. Are you in Poland?

D (6:31)

Hey. And yes, we've just got on the train. I'm traveling with the European Commission president, Oslo von der Leyen, and the European Council president, Antonio Kosta. We're on our way to Kyiv tonight, and the plan is to arrive tomorrow morning for the commemoration of the fourth anniversary of the war.

B (6:48)

And this station in Poland that you're leaving from, this is which people will remember this from. All the refugees arriving at the early moments of the war, is that right?

D (6:58)

That's right. It's Przemyslu Station. And, you know, tonight it was very Very quiet when we all got on the train. Not a lot of people waiting at the station. And the train itself is full of EU folks, so there's a small traveling press pack and the two presidents and some of their staffers, but otherwise the station is quite empty. It was snowing a little bit as we were departing.

B (7:22)

And you were on the plane from Brussels with the presidents. What's the mood in the EU now? Because obviously the Foreign Affairs Council didn't quite go according to plan.

D (7:32)

Yeah, that's right, Ian. I mean, the mood was really grim. Things were subdued. I think the intention had been to show up to Kyiv with quite a victorious kind of package of sanctions. In the lead up to the fact I was hearing people say, you know, this is a firm, a tough package of sanctions. This is a really, really positive step forward. But on the plane there was this sense from the President of the European Council's folks as well as from the commission that things have sort of fallen apart. And definitely I sensed a real down mood on the plane.

B (8:06)

And we know that Antonia Costa wrote a letter to Orban, Viktor Orban, the Prime Minister of Hungary. I think you saw that letter, didn't you?

D (8:16)

Yeah, I did. And in that letter he really took aim at Hungary's brinksmanship, saying, look, this is really inappropriate for you to have made this deal at the European Council and to now be reneging on it. So it's quite a firm letter. And I know that our colleague Gabriel Gavin has seen a response from Viktor Orban again. So this has been a bit of a ping pong.

B (8:36)

Yeah, he's just seen this letter. Just as we're recording at 8pm on Monday, Orban writing back saying he's one of the most disciplined and consistent leaders in the eu, but his veto of the loan is justified by new circumstances. So it will be quite a strange meeting that the eu, the EU delegation has in Kyiv in the morning. Just describe to us where your journey goes from here, then. It's overnight from Poland. What's it like on the train? Give us some color.

D (9:03)

Yeah, it's overnight, so we've got roughly, I guess, 12 hours on the train. The train itself is quite comfortable. So we've each got a carriage, we're sharing, got a couple of bunk mates sharing each cabin. It's comfortable, you know, the meals are good. We've got fresh fruits, some cheese.

B (9:21)

Get your priorities right.

D (9:22)

This is great, you know, it's.

B (9:23)

It could be worse.

D (9:25)

It could be much, much. It's. Honestly, it's like kind of a really Decent sort of comfort situation. But of course, against the backdrop of tragedy.

B (9:35)

How are you feeling, Zoya? Because I know this is the first time you've been back to Ukraine where you were born and grew up for a few years, isn't it?

D (9:44)

Yeah, I haven't been back since the full scale invasion and I've got to say I'm feeling really emotional about it.

B (9:49)

Ian, not surprised.

D (9:52)

I remember the night that Vladimir Putin declared war on Ukraine. I was working the overnight shift, as I usually was, and it was such a surreal experience seeing that press conference that he had pre recorded talking about launching a strategic military operation in the country's east, which of course I knew immediately was just code for an invasion. To be here again on the eve of that, four years later.

B (10:17)

Yeah.

D (10:19)

Look, I never thought that the war would go on for this long. I don't think anyone could have possibly, possibly predicted this because of various things, you know, Ukraine outgunned and outnumbered, but the fact that it perseveres four years later is an astonishing feat.

B (10:34)

Okay, well, thanks, Sawyer. We'll let you go. And hopefully technology willing will, will talk to you in the podcast on Wednesday.

D (10:42)

Thanks, Ian.

B (10:43)

Look after yourself. Bye.

D (10:45)

Thank you.

B (10:45)

Bye. Just before we chat with Katie again, back here in the studio, there's a couple more headlines that you can read on Politico today. EU countries are threatening legal action over the amount of power being given to the European Parliament, according to a letter Politico has seen. So you can read all about that. And also Bern Langer, the chair of the European Parliament's Committee on International Trade, has said that the EU US deal is now on hold until further notice. That one's definitely going to run and run. So you can read more about that on the political website as well. All right, Katie, the other thing we wanted to talk about slightly more light hearted, was the state of EU buildings because EU employees working in the Madu Plaza tower, that's where DGCOMP are, the Commission's competition department were sent a note the other day acknowledging that their working conditions were, quote, less than optimal and that the heating sanitary system and now the water supply was not functioning to the level we should expect. That was a note that they got from their acting director general, Lindsay MacCallum. It seems a general problem with EU buildings, doesn't it, Katie?

C (12:01)

Yeah, I mean, maybe bring your own water bottle if you're going for a meeting there. Any fastidious competition lawyers? Yeah. Brussels seems to have this history of leaky, weak or otherwise dodgy buildings around the EU quarter I mean, in particular, there have been a few stories of Europe Parliament buildings. Now, one of the main European Parliament buildings, the. The SPAC building, is going to have a renovation that's going to cost half a billion euros.

B (12:25)

That's very nice estimation.

C (12:27)

That's a few years old already, so it's probably going to be more.

B (12:30)

Do you know where the Madu Tower is?

C (12:32)

The Madu Tower is just down the road from Politico's office. There's a beautiful magnolia tree that flowers there in the spring. Ian, you should go see it sometime.

B (12:39)

I did have to Google it, actually, and I did laugh at the Visit Brussels website, which says the Madu Tower has a whopping 33 floors. And it says while St. Jos isn't Dubai, it's still the fifth highest tower in Belgium. I think that's a lovely Belgium understatement, don't you?

C (12:56)

Saint Joss isn't even the Dubai of Belgium, I think, or Brussels.

B (13:00)

But it's usually, as you said, it's usually parliament buildings that seem to fall apart.

C (13:04)

Yeah, there have been a few classics of the genre. The hemicycle in the European Parliament in Brussels, the ceiling partially collapsed back in 2012.

B (13:11)

Oh, I remember writing about that.

C (13:12)

Yeah, well, that might not be the only partial ceiling collapse you remember, because there was also one in Strasbourg in 2008 and the SPAC building, the one that's having this very costly renovation, which is probably going to run from next year until 2030, that wasn't originally built as an EU building. It was built as a conference centre back in the 80s and the European Parliament bought it later. But it just seems to not quite be up to scratch in terms of being able to withstand damage.

B (13:37)

And then only last summer, I remember when everybody was hot and sweaty, MEPs were even hotter and sweatier.

C (13:44)

Yeah. Because the air conditioning broke in part of one of the main European Parliament buildings in Brussels. I think at the time the MEPs took it on the chin, though. There were quite good sports about it, but hopefully that's the sort of thing a renovation might be able to address.

B (13:56)

Good. Well, thank you for joining us, Katie. It's been good to see you and hopefully we'll talk to you again.

C (14:01)

See you soon.

B (14:02)

Right, before we go, given that we've been talking about kaia Kallas, the EU's top diplomat, a lot, let's mention that Estonia is celebrating Independence Day. So happy Independence Day to all Estonian listeners. That's it for the Brussels Playbook podcast today. Tomorrow morning, Zoya will again join us from Kyiv. So please tune in for that and subscribe to the show wherever you listen to the podcast, Rate us. Leave us a review it really does help others to find the podcast and tell your friends and colleagues about it. Perhaps you could tell us about whether you work in a crumbling EU building. Any horror stories? Are you scared to drink the water? Send us a message or a voice Note on our WhatsApp. The number is in the show. Notes. I'm Ian Wishart. I'll see you tomorrow.

A (14:57)

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